[WW] Deep Cover (Postmortem)

[Unagi]

I tend to agree with this statement that Remus made on the spoiler forum:

I don't think a game that is inherently psychological should become a math problem.

There was a while here, where I really felt this would ultimately boil down to the GW Budget totally overwhelming us.... a good number of BBs on us would totally shutdown our ability to get any tokens. I thought we would/could be shut down each night, but also knew we couldn't win without hoping to get lucky, and 'going for it' a few times.

Since the beginning of the game, my biggest fear was that the MoD would simply DIT me, and become a permanent GW-Treasuer. He could then covertly plan to have himself and myself DITed. I would be lynched only after everyone was their own GW Treasurer. (I would become a living template for the Great Wall to clone Treasurers from)

DITing paul actually exposed us even more to you guys leaching a "sticky" GW-Treasurer role.

Thankfully, that idea never actually caught fire.



The starting move by the GW that I felt would have been hard to beat:
Treasurer would fund each GW-Special some amount, and each Special Agent an Amount and ask (publicly) that they all (except the GW-Crypto) sub-allocate it back to him. He'd then have a list of good-guy names(and an ability to estimate what each player was (special/villager). He'd ask that the GW-Crypto contact him - and the two of them would hatch a plan to start a lynch on somone not on his list. The Treasurer would likely sub-allocate some more to the Crypto - and they could protect eachother from kill/convert, and MP others to learn more, and BB the heck out of the 2 Templars left. something like that. (I'd be a problem if people didn't trust enough to believe trust the treasurer)

[stessier]

The starting move by the GW that I felt would have been hard to beat:
Treasurer would fund each GW-Special some amount, and each Special Agent an Amount and ask (publicly) that they all (except the GW-Crypto) sub-allocate it back to him. He'd then have a list of good-guy names(and an ability to estimate what each player was (special/villager). He'd ask that the GW-Crypto contact him - and the two of them would hatch a plan to start a lynch on somone not on his list. The Treasurer would likely sub-allocate some more to the Crypto - and they could protect eachother from kill/convert, and MP others to learn more, and BB the heck out of the 2 Templars left. something like that. (I'd be a problem if people didn't trust enough to believe trust the treasurer)

I still have a lot to read, but this couldn't work because of the MitMe's. Anyone asking to be called guaranteed a MitMe would occur.


And just so I'm clear:

Starting temple - Unagi, Trig, Scoop.
Convert 1: Austin
Convert 2: Paul

[Unagi]

The turning point happened Tuesday.

while that was a key moment, the real Turning point was when I DITed paulbaxter, I think.

....with the DIT you stole from pr0ner on Tuesday. Tuesday night, the stars were aligned for a complete Wall victory. By Wednesday night, that chance had slipped away.

true dat.

One could also look back one more step and say a key moment was simply the luck of Converting a player (Austin) that happened to have MPed a Special Agent (pr0ner) - forcing a swap of the (random.org's gift) MoD - who had just swapped with stessier. Which then lead to the public hashing of events, in addition to our private knowledge - and then, indeed your subsequent idea to rob pr0ner as one of our targets.

If we had simply converted Remus instead, everything would have been totally different.

The reason I point to the DITing my role onto Paul as being key, it allowed us to compete with GW funding.

Just so everyone realizes: Today we had a grand total of over 900 in funds. The Temple-Treasurer role's Budget that contributed to that grand total was: 12

[Newcastle]

just got done reading the spoiler forums. And just off the top of my head but a couple of things to thing about for future references.

1. The monetary allowances for each team. The money the GW got was HUGE compared to the Temple. However, the money for the temple was steady and could never be switched unless they were DIT....which in this version was never going to happen. However, the GW's role could float.

2. The game was over when you guys DIT Paul, I agree with that much.

3. I think there was a hesitance for people to use the more initeresting items (ie DIT, Profiling gizmo) because there was the chance they could be stolen, right after purchasing them. The only way to sucessfully use those is to coordinate with a few people. BUT the sands of alliances here could always shift. You wouldn't know who your ally/enemy was due to the conversion mechanism.

3B - Maybe a way to allow us to buy the more "interesting" items is if we can opt to have it delivered the following day, and have it immune to being stolen. So incur a day's penalty, but then get to use it without fear of it being stolen. Buy it that day, it can be stolen.

4. Disbursement of funds - I know for me the first few days were frustrating in the sense that the only thing i could contribute was analysis. Which is great. And I wished I could get some funds. Lo and behold, I eventually am given the GW treasurers role. Since I couldn't trust many people, my first instinct was to hoard the cash. And eventually i did share, but i kept most of it. It's just interesting to note, that once I had cash, I didn't spread it around.

5. They had a huge advantage in being able to coordinate. It just goes to show when they went on the BB spree, they protected PB to the max, and let Austin do his thing.

6. Will also echo the frustration that having a templar dead in your sights, but not being able to lynch them. When we couldn't lynch triggercut, I was pretty ticked off. I realize it was a game mechanism, but....how were we suppose to get around it without truly being able to coordinate.

[Remus West]

What the heck did PaulBaxter do with the GW money when he was our treasurer?

BTW, I disagree that losing Sean hurt the GW. Sure, we could have saved him with a protection but then we would never be certain if we had protected a GW or a Temple and have to deal with figuring him out. As it was we lost a single agent and knew where we stood. Having the toys stolen from pr0ner hurt much more than losing any single SA to death.

[Newcastle]

just to re-echo this...

Was the game designed to be more psychological? If so then the funds need to be toned down, because as Remus said, the game really came down to who had more funds.

I had 440 to start with (grund said i had an extra 50, but it got lost in the shuffle)

I know on my night that i had funds, I gave 100 to remus and stessier (50 each..there's an easter egg for you folks).

That meant I had 340 left over.

I was going to protect 9 people - 250 left over

2 BB to give to whomever stole from me.

230 left over - that i used on a massive BB thievery operation. I really thought I was going to be able to pick everyone's pockets. But not being able to on most of them was shocking to say the least. I layered it between 1-3 on most people. and even on the 3's i was denied.

[Unagi]

I still have a lot to read, but this couldn't work because of the MitMe's. Anyone asking to be called guaranteed a MitMe would occur.

And just so I'm clear:

Starting temple - Unagi, Trig, Scoop.
Convert 1: Austin
Convert 2: Paul

your right about the MitME problem (could work if you could somehow lay down the MitME on yourself (or the other guy) - and claiming the ONE MitME spot by timestamp.

And yeah - you have the right Starting temple.

Unagi: Treasurer
Triggercut: P-CCAT
Scoop: Analyst

Austin - converted as he was Day 1 GW-Treasurer. He had a few BBs he kept on him (which we later used), and he caused the CCC against pr0ner, which forced the swap on paul, etc... Which also caused the semi-undetected/discussed "Adjustment" to the Budget that Lord Mortis reported... If that was detected for what it meant, it would have made Triggercut's defence that he was the Day 1 Treasurer - a moot point, as you all should have known (Budget Adjustment) that the Day 1 Treasurer was indeed converted. (which, at the start of the day, was the reason we didn't want Austin to step forward with the honest report that he was the Day 1 treasurer, when the day started)

Paul: converted as the was the Day 3 Treasurer. Again, who ever was the MoD would (hould) have recieved an Budger Adjustment, because Paul reports he did hand out 16 (I think) to "The MoD". He also had 3 BB's on him (which we later used). Also passed him the 'sticky' Treasurer ability.

The Treasurer was a recurring theme for me throughout the game.

[Unagi]

What the heck did PaulBaxter do with the GW money when he was our treasurer?

I sent a 16 bucks to whomever was the MoD and spent the rest on black bags.
We were at minimal funding for yesterday, so that left me with 60.
BB theft of Unagi (fail)
BB theft of Newcastle (fail)
BB trail of Unagi (fail)
BB theft of Lagom Lite-->MP, DiT, and another black bag
the other two bags I saved for myself.

[pr0ner]

By the way, the night everything was stolen, I would have wound up as MoD with Analyst as the sidecar (I was going to swap with LM to test Trig's story), and I would have scanned Unagi with one of the MPs.

[stessier]

What the heck did PaulBaxter do with the GW money when he was our treasurer?

I sent a 16 bucks to whomever was the MoD and spent the rest on black bags.
We were at minimal funding for yesterday, so that left me with 60.
BB theft of Unagi (fail)
BB theft of Newcastle (fail)
BB trail of Unagi (fail)
BB theft of Lagom Lite-->MP, DiT, and another black bag
the other two bags I saved for myself.

Did he write that in game? I never remember reading that.

[paulbaxter]

What the heck did PaulBaxter do with the GW money when he was our treasurer?

We were at minimum funding level that day. I kept some and sent some to the MoD. I actually don't remember what I bought. I know I grabbed at least one BB.

[paulbaxter]

What the heck did PaulBaxter do with the GW money when he was our treasurer?

I sent a 16 bucks to whomever was the MoD and spent the rest on black bags.
We were at minimal funding for yesterday, so that left me with 60.
BB theft of Unagi (fail)
BB theft of Newcastle (fail)
BB trail of Unagi (fail)
BB theft of Lagom Lite-->MP, DiT, and another black bag
the other two bags I saved for myself.

Did he write that in game? I never remember reading that.

That's because you weren't a Templar.

BTW, I don't know if anyone remembers this, but Lagom actually asked to be stolen from to keep his stuff from falling into the wrong hands. Funny the way that worked out.

[stessier]

Did you read beyond the linked post?

So what the heck were you trying to tell us???

[paulbaxter]

Just to be clear about the timeline there, I was converted AFTER my full day as treasurer.

[Grundbegriff]

3B - Maybe a way to allow us to buy the more "interesting" items is if we can opt to have it delivered the following day, and have it immune to being stolen. So incur a day's penalty, but then get to use it without fear of it being stolen. Buy it that day, it can be stolen.

This reminds me, in a good way, of Jagged Alliance. I like it.

6. Will also echo the frustration that having a templar dead in your sights, but not being able to lynch them. When we couldn't lynch triggercut, I was pretty ticked off. I realize it was a game mechanism, but....how were we suppose to get around it without truly being able to coordinate.

Pretty much any community-minded Waller could've floated the idea that the Treasurer should spread enough money around to equip a few SAs with Bags. Then, at least someone would've eluded theft and had a bag to slap on the execution.

The day triggercut eluded execution, a single trail would've defeated him. Two trails would've strung up Unagi.

[Remus West]

Did you read beyond the linked post?

So what the heck were you trying to tell us???

SERIOUSLY?! Was I the only one that knew he was referring to having MoD'd the analyst away from LM? Really? Maybe I shouldn't have been as shocked that Theohall didn't get it as I was.

(or maybe stessier was kidding and I can remain shocked at Theohall. either way I'm happy.)

[stessier]

Did you read beyond the linked post?

So what the heck were you trying to tell us???

SERIOUSLY?! Was I the only one that knew he was referring to having MoD'd the analyst away from LM? Really? Maybe I shouldn't have been as shocked that Theohall didn't get it as I was.

(or maybe stessier was kidding and I can remain shocked at Theohall. either way I'm happy.)

I don't understand what that has to do with anything. I KNEW that. I don't see what that had to do with the day's events. So what?

Maybe I just assumed it was deeper because I knew I was Crypto again meaning paul was the convert, thus pr0ner was still good.

[Newcastle]

but...we couldn't buy until the evening, so any money that you dispersed could potentially go to an ally/enemy. YOu were never sure. Then you had to wonder if it was going to be used up on you....(ie me with the big fat target on my head). Simply from my perspective. I wanted progress as wallies, but i knew if i threw the money out willy nilly it would be used against me (i am also operating under the assumption that the people were told that they received funds from teh GW treasurer, and not from the individual, ie Newcastle) What were people told after i allocated money to them?

And also, my critiques are meant for the better also Grund, I think with a few more tweaks it could be a fascinating game. Just trying to throw out my mind set through the portions of the game...as also my grund-diary posts to you were.

Another thing about the rules, usually when i play the WW games, they are pretty simple with a few tweaks, and honestly i dont bother to read them until we are in the middle of the game. This one was so different, that i think many of us, had to spend time figuring out how the game worked, and then try to evolve strategies from that.

[Remus West]

6. Will also echo the frustration that having a templar dead in your sights, but not being able to lynch them. When we couldn't lynch triggercut, I was pretty ticked off. I realize it was a game mechanism, but....how were we suppose to get around it without truly being able to coordinate.

Pretty much any community-minded Waller could've floated the idea that the Treasurer should spread enough money around to equip a few SAs with Bags. Then, at least someone would've eluded theft and had a bag to slap on the execution.

The day triggercut eluded execution, a single trail would've defeated him. Two trails would've strung up Unagi.

This keeps coming up and I keep getting stuck on the same ideas regarding it. First, who is the treasurer supposed to entrust with this plan - without knowing who the Temple is he can not just send money around all willy nilly and hope not to fund action against us. Second, which player with money is going to be the one to save it and how will they know that they are to be the one saving their black bags? What if I buy black bags but assume someone else will save theirs for the lynch so go ahead and steal? What if nobody steals but we all save our black bags to ensure the lynch and thus end up with 70 black bag trails on our suspect to the 1 black bag protection they spent. Not really cost effective and without communication there is no way to really work around it.

[Newcastle]

maybe another toy to add...to enable communication is a "secure com link". Not being able to be mitmed. Costs money (40), but the next day you are able to "communicated with a player.

Maybe make it expensive or have it on a delay...ie you buy it tonight, but can only use it tomorrow, and it can still be stolen?

[stessier]

Part of the issue there has to do with how the Treasurers decide to play.

I don't think that means the game is broken; I think it means that some Treasurer's see all that money, go all "Hassan, chop!" and "Mine, mine, mine!" and then head for Neiman Markup. Case in point: pr0ner buying all the toys or Newc asking to blow ~120 on MitMEs.

To prevent wrongheaded play, it's necessary for GW to communicate. That's one reason I think triggercut's idea of allowing GW to pass notes when they wire money is pretty interesting.

Great Caesar's Ghost! We examined the Treasurer's role ad nauseum on Monday and almost everyone agreed spreading the wealth was the way to go. What happens - all the Treasurer's hoarded. What more could we have done??? I got money and spread it around. I did what I could.

And why would anyone buy MitMe's. I explained they were a waste for the Wall.

Why did pr0ner rob Chaos!?!?!

Why did Chaos rob Lagom (or whoever)???

These were ...unwise....Wallie moves.

And for anyone to just say we should have had more trust and things would have worked out needs look no further than Theo's reaction to me. There was literally no way for me to be a Templar and yet he persisted in thinking I was playing him for DAYS!!! (Sorry Theo - I'm nowhere near as devious as you think I can be. ) The Wall is not set up for trust and that shouldn't be the only way for it to win.

(That may be a hasty assessment, but it's way past my bedtime and I wanted to get it in before I sleep. )

I finished the spoiler forum but still have to read the Templars. 976 posts! You'd think they would have talked about a better way to stay hidden.

[Remus West]

I finished the spoiler forum but still have to read the Templars. 976 posts! You'd think they would have talked about a better way to stay hidden.

[pr0ner]

Did you read beyond the linked post?

So what the heck were you trying to tell us???

You spelled out exactly why LordMortis lost his analyst role. I took it from him. I just didn't want to say it myself, since you had already said it for me.

[Grundbegriff]

Maybe I just assumed it was deeper because I knew I was Crypto again meaning paul was the convert, thus pr0ner was still good.

Your analysis of pr0ner and paul was off, though I couldn't say so at the time.

It's true that there was no direct way to get pr0ner's token as MoD unless he gave it up. However, the following combo would've worked:

[1] DIT pr0ner to remove and evaporate the MoD role, leaving him as whatever was in his sidecar.
[2] MP him, to get his token as that.
[3] Convert/Kill/Maim
[4] Profit!!!

Oh, wait-- that last step is if you convert paulbaxter....

[Newcastle]

from my perspective stessier, is that the only two people i was reasonably sure were still wallies was you and remus. The other thing, was i knew if i threw it out to a lot of people. So many people would be sending in the following order "trail newcastle" or its diminutive cousin "thieve from newcastle".

If i threw the money to theohall, he would have used it on me. My options were limtied. yes partially how i played this game, BUT....how was that exactly suppose to help the wall?

I am just explaining my mind set. I didn't have a lot of room to trust. Partially why i trusted Remus was earlier he tacictly acknowledged that Trigg was evil. The reason I gave to stessier, was that he would be the more rationale with the money. Everyone else, I wasn't sure of. I wasn't sure if they were converted yet or not.

[stessier]

Maybe I just assumed it was deeper because I knew I was Crypto again meaning paul was the convert, thus pr0ner was still good.

Your analysis of pr0ner and paul was off, though I couldn't say so at the time.

It's true that there was no direct way to get pr0ner's token as MoD unless he gave it up. However, the following combo would've worked:

[1] DIT pr0ner to remove and evaporate the MoD role, leaving him as whatever was in his sidecar.
[2] MP him, to get his token as that.
[3] Convert/Kill/Maim
[4] Profit!!!

Oh, wait-- that last step is if you convert paulbaxter....

Oh sure, that could have happened. But then you look at how the players behaved after the fact. pr0ner was pr0ner. paul seemed to not be paul. The quick vote on Unagi seemed very out of character. But maybe that's just because I was already wedded to the idea that paul was the convert. Meh - I still give myself full credit for the right answer even if the reasoning wasn't foolproof. Wasn't there something about deduction getting us 90% and the last 10% being skill/luck/faith??

And I didn't realize the MoD role could evaporate until you spelled it out in that one IF X Then Y post. I didn't get that from reading the original rules at all. Why does the DiT evaporate the MoD?

[Grundbegriff]

but...we couldn't buy until the evening, so any money that you dispersed could potentially go to an ally/enemy. YOu were never sure.

True, but if the Treasurer had spread it around, was it really likely that much of it would've accidentally gone to the Temple? And if some of it had, would that have prevented the rest from being used effectively?

In general, an all-eggs-in-one-or-two-baskets strategy was a loser for the Great Wall. pr0ner's gambit illustrated this: it would've been amazing if he had scored all that intel, but it was amazing in the other direction when all that gear was swiped because nobody was trailing the Wells Fargo Wagon. High reward potential, but high risk of disaster.

i knew if i threw the money out willy nilly it would be used against me (i am also operating under the assumption that the people were told that they received funds from teh GW treasurer, and not from the individual, ie Newcastle) What were people told after i allocated money to them?

During T-disbursement, they were told that 'the GW Treasurer has allocated XX to you'. During sub-alloc, they were told (usually) that 'You have received x from Unagi!'.

And also, my critiques are meant for the better also Grund,

It's all taken in that spirit. I welcome and appreciate the constructive criticism. Where I express disagreement, it's only to stimulate further analysis or to point out overlooked possibilities.

Another thing about the rules, usually when i play the WW games, they are pretty simple with a few tweaks, and honestly i dont bother to read them until we are in the middle of the game. This one was so different, that i think many of us, had to spend time figuring out how the game worked, and then try to evolve strategies from that.

I agree. triggercut had some astute observations along these lines over in the spoiler forum.

[Grundbegriff]

The reason I gave to stessier, was that he would be the more rationale with the money.

I think he spent it on skittles and beer.

[stessier]

The reason I gave to stessier, was that he would be the more rationale with the money.

I think he spent it on skittles and beer.

Nuh-uh.

[Remus West]

The reason I gave to stessier, was that he would be the more rationale with the money.

I think he spent it on skittles and beer.

God Damn It, Grund. You didn't tell me that was an option.

[Newcastle]

actually i just had an idea....what if the funding was given to each side on equal amounts. meaning....

great wall treasurer you receive 100 bucks....temple treasurer you receive 100 bucks

The respective treasures will always float amongst one person of that side, so it can never be a double templar.

it would mean parity in actions, which i think it needs.

i am also thinking that removing the DIT capability for treasurers should be investigated. If you have enough funds to really blow everything up, it kind of ruins the game. There should be some sense of mystery, some sense of intuition.

[Grundbegriff]

And I didn't realize the MoD role could evaporate until you spelled it out in that one IF X Then Y post. I didn't get that from reading the original rules at all. Why does the DiT evaporate the MoD?

That comment brings up another interesting dynamic in this game. Whenever anyone asked a question in either forum, I tried to answer it (if I noticed it!). The Templars asked all sorts of questions and developed a pretty deep understanding of the possibilities and outcomes. The Great Wall asked far fewer questions, and never quite grasped (explicitly) some of the tactical possibilities.

Case in point: through questioning, the Templars realized that the Wall could clone a very large number of GW-Treasurers off the T-Treasurer via the DIT. When they first realized this, they were stricken with terror that the GW might also realize it. Only later did the Templars realize (to their credit) that this was a two-way street, and that they could force someone to be cloned as a GW-Treasurer and then convert him and route his income toward their nefarious enterprise.

Through questioning, too, the Temple learned the nuances of the Trailing system and ensured that they were setting things up just right. One consequence of their effort to master this system is that Newcastle's huge theft spree was successfully offset by Austin's even more huge trailing spree.

Ask, people! Ask!

Of course, it would've been ideal if I had been able to present all rules and their nuances and implications in advance, and to publish all the boilerplate in advance. But hey-- improvised game, improvised content!

[Unagi]

Regarding funding.

Just thinking here...
Maybe the treasuer shouldn't be a role?

Instead, each player gets a certain allowance (perhaps an amount too small to do much without saving for a day or 3), but there can be sub-allocations so as to help a certain player, etc.
Also, perhaps the allowance can go up or down depending on certain plays (like success/fail of various things).
Everyone would have an excuse to have some money one em (seems normal), everyone could claim to be trying to do their best, etc.

Let that be a way for the villagers (and specials) to 'power up' a bit (Seer for a night) - but also risk being robbed, etc.

Just something about the Treasurer role and how it intersects with the other powers of the game, seems like it may not be critical to the game, and the impowering of agents to all be on equal footing, but with one sides advantage to basically be 'detection' and attack, the others is stealth and secret channels. Funding is still naturally balanced for how many of each, etc - and success/fail.

Just a thought.

Another though was that our Crypto role was a role that I had no good vibes letting loose... the free MitMEs were nice. 'Stepping into things' didn't seem prudent.
An Analyst would be nice, but I am sure you made a very conscious choice not to give the Temple an Analyst.
Actually, I think you even mused that the Temple could perhaps all just be P-CCATs, basically.

Perhaps it's because it was my role, but the Treasurer role seemed to be the one part that kept it from feeling totally cloak-n-dagger, more economic.
(perhaps the immediate exposure of Scoop/Triggercut with me standing behind them also changed everyone's perspective of things too)

Another part was where there became a rule I felt we clearly needed to follow, where:
1. We NEEDED to get an MP off at the very least.
2. That MP NEEDED to be protected (learned this the hard way).
3. So, one player must hold the MP (toy guy), One player must protect the heck out of him with BBs (BB guy.)
4. The toy guy must NOT use any BB's, because the BBs from #3 would defeat them.
5. The BB guy also Trails the night's target a little, to be sure Kill will take.
6. Anything extra: if it's a toy - the toy guy should fire it off, and if it's a night BB use, the BB guy should.
* BBs to be saved for the next day, need to be held by the toy guy.

No other Templar needs to be holding anything or doing anything - just harder to protect.

Minimal Purchases: 1 MP,## BBs to Trail the MP-Holder from Theft (2? 3?), and ## BBs to Trail night's target to lock in kill (1? 2? 4?)
Then ramp up BBs (worst case is you hold onto them) if you get more money, expand your net - perhaps MP a little more, BB more... Perform a DIT hunt for MoD if you have a SA to burn.... etc.

To defeat that, the GW needs to basically crack into the toy holder and steal his toys.

This was to be Paul until the heat caught up with him. By then, there would hopefully be someone else we could assign the role.

All then depending on the Budget of the GW, and the heat on the toy guy...

[Unagi]

By the way, the night everything was stolen, I would have wound up as MoD with Analyst as the sidecar (I was going to swap with LM to test Trig's story), and I would have scanned Unagi with one of the MPs.

Why did the theft take away your ability to DIT? or did I miss something.

[Unagi]

Did he write that in game? I never remember reading that.

No, that was in our forum - that's why I quoted it that way - sorry, I should have said it too.

[triggercut]

By the way, the night everything was stolen, I would have wound up as MoD with Analyst as the sidecar (I was going to swap with LM to test Trig's story), and I would have scanned Unagi with one of the MPs.

Why did the theft take away your ability to DIT? or did I miss something.

No, he started as MOD/Crypto, and DITted the Crypto role to KK with his ability; I think he had an order to use the purchased DiT on LM to grab his Analyst role, but the DiT was taken.

[Newcastle]

actually grund - and i am sure i am not the only one....depending how you ask a question, it can reveal your perspective.

Say I ask in the thread...."how are the templar funds configured"......most people would raise their eyebrows as to why i was asking about their funds.

I know i asked for a lot of clarifications via PM's. Maybe, in the future you should post those, but remove the person's name?

[Unagi]

Did you read beyond the linked post?

So what the heck were you trying to tell us???

You spelled out exactly why LordMortis lost his analyst role. I took it from him. I just didn't want to say it myself, since you had already said it for me.

You spelled it out long ago, when you told everyone that the key thing was to be protecting you, and not to protect Lord Mortis.

By the way, if there are any wall players with funds, I hope you're ready and willing to do the smart thing tonight.

To add to this, using money to keep LordMortis alive isn't the "smart thing".

[Grundbegriff]

Why does the DiT evaporate the MoD?

Where else would it go?

Bubba the GW-Crypto DITs Carol the T-Treasurer. Carol cannot lose her role. And the role is, in part, her cover. (Hey look! She's a Treasurer!). So Bubba becomes a Treasurer, but where can the GW-Crypto role go?

There's no additional container for it and it cannot stack, so it evaps.

(If Carol had been the P-CCAT, it would've gone into the sidecar, and Bubba would've become whatever was previously in the sidecar.)

Unagi's questions taught him this fairly early, and one of his early missions was to DIT the MoD just to cause that role to vanish. I think that's probably the line of thinking that eventually led to his master plan of cloning-and-conversion.

Here's a nightmare scenario:

The P-CCAT DITs the MoD, receiving the MoD role into his P-CCAT-sidecar. Using the MoD capability, the P-CCAT then acquires the Analyst role. Then the randomly floating GW-Treasurer role lands on him with the following consequence:

(((P-CCAT) MoD) Analyst )) GW-Treasurer

That was the maximum role-stacking possibility under these rules.

Amazingly, something like this almost happened. triggercut was primed to DIT pr0ner (I think) and take on the MoD role. But someone robbed him of his DIT. Or somesuch.

Other near misses and interesting junctures:

• On the first night, LordMortis's MP was stolen before he could use it. His target was Unagi.
• pr0ner started as a Secret Agent, became Master of Disguise, possessed the Cryptologist role, and (through that quirk of overlap) received relatively gigantic funding from Lagom Lite. Not bad, as game experience goes, for someone who started as a simple villager.
• Scoop died with 20 on him. There was a lot of talk about raiding him, but nobody ever tried. There was also some talk about his role, but nobody ever FAKked him.
• Other weird stuff

[Unagi]

Another thing about the rules, usually when i play the WW games, they are pretty simple with a few tweaks, and honestly i dont bother to read them until we are in the middle of the game. This one was so different, that i think many of us, had to spend time figuring out how the game worked, and then try to evolve strategies from that.

Just to show you the other perspective.... I think the Temple stood out because they weren't out there making big mistakes and looking like they were alone with a ton of rules.