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Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:59 pm
by Hrdina
Jaymann wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:14 pm
TheMix wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:11 pm
Jaymann wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:07 pm
TheMix wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:04 pm
Jaymann wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:55 am
OTOH, Jill Biden thinks she is a "doctor."
I'm confused by this. My understanding is that she goes by "Dr" because she has a doctorate. Has she also made claims to being a medical "doctor" that I'm unaware of? Or are you in the camp that only people with medical doctorates can be "Dr"s? And everyone else should drop it from their names?
It's a joke, son.
Okay. It didn't come across as one. Though I guess I should have known by how you've done the other ones. It just seemed serious. Which confused me since I didn't think you, or anyone on this forum, were in that camp.
I'll go get some more coffee and stop responding to threads this early in the morning...
If you want to get serious, my Dad had a PhD and everyone referred to him as doctor. So yeah, it is a thing and normal.
My wife has a PhD. It used to be amusing when people would assume that the "Dr. Hrdina" in our family was referring to me. Thankfully that happens less frequently now than it did when she first got the PhD.
I still like introducing us as "Dr. and Mr. Hrdina", though.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:18 pm
by Max Peck
TheMix wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:04 pm
Jaymann wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:55 am
OTOH, Jill Biden thinks she is a "doctor."
I'm confused by this. My understanding is that she goes by "Dr" because she has a doctorate. Has she also made claims to being a medical "doctor" that I'm unaware of? Or are you in the camp that only people with medical doctorates can be "Dr"s? And everyone else should drop it from their names?
The WSJ carried an opinion piece where some schlub criticized her for using the title "Doctor" when she has a PhD instead of an MD. That's what spawned the Doctor/Kiddo memes that you may have noticed popping up here and elsewhere.
Jill Biden: Backlash after WSJ op-ed calls future first lady 'kiddo'
An opinion writer's suggestion that the next US First Lady Jill Biden should stop referring to herself as "Dr" has sparked an angry reaction online.
Joseph Epstein called Jill Biden "kiddo", comparing her doctorate in education to an honorary degree.
"'Dr Jill Biden' sounds and feels fraudulent, not to say a touch comic," he wrote in the Wall Street Journal.
But social media users argued that the article reflected sexist attitudes faced by many women in academia.
Jill Biden, who uses her academic title on her Twitter profile, received her doctorate in 2007 from the University of Delaware. She wrote her dissertation on student retention in community colleges.
She also holds two master's degrees and will be one of the most-educated presidential spouses in US history when her husband takes office in January.
"A wise man once said that no one should call himself 'Dr' unless he has delivered a child," wrote Mr Epstein, an 83-year-old writer and academic. "Think about it, Dr Jill, and forthwith drop the doc."
"Forget the small thrill of being Dr Jill, and settle for the larger thrill of living for the next four years in the best public housing in the world as First Lady Jill Biden," he concluded.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:45 pm
by TheMix
I'm aware of that.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:56 pm
by LawBeefaroni
A title is different than a profession.
If someone asks her (or any other PhD) what they do, they probably won't say, "I'm a doctor...". They say what they actually do.
Ask an MD or DO and they'll probably say, "I'm a doctor....". Even PharmD's call themselves pharmacists rather than doctors.
Ultimately most non-medical doctors eventually dispense with the title because it just causes confusion. Put the letters at the end of your name rather than in front.
It's why it's kind of jarring to hear about "Dr. Jill". Nothing wrong or incorrect with it, it's just not the norm.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:00 pm
by Max Peck
TheMix wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:45 pm
I'm aware of that.
Then I'm confused as to why you were confused about the reference to it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:05 pm
by Jaymann
And right wing fucktards have even sunken to criticizing her dissertation. Let that sink in.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:10 pm
by Smoove_B
Jaymann wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:05 pm
And right wing fucktards have even sunken to criticizing her dissertation. Let that sink in.
Not just criticizing her dissertation, but doing detailed examinations of potential grammar and syntax issues. These people are unhinged. I don't know if it's politics with a dash of misogyny or it's the other way around but it's beyond contemptible.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:13 pm
by Max Peck
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:56 pm
A title is different than a profession.
If someone asks her (or any other PhD) what they do, they probably won't say, "I'm a doctor...". They say what they actually do.
Ask an MD or DO and they'll probably say, "I'm a doctor....". Even PharmD's call themselves pharmacists rather than doctors.
Ultimately most non-medical doctors eventually dispense with the title because it just causes confusion. Put the letters at the end of your name rather than in front.
It's why it's kind of jarring to hear about "Dr. Jill". Nothing wrong or incorrect with it, it's just not the norm.
A guy I used to work with has a PhD in engineering, and we referred to him as "Dr <insert surname here>" for formal purposes. However, he told me that his parents referred to his brother (an MD) as being the "real doctor" in the family to keep him from getting too uppity about the title.
The thing that sets the WSJ oped apart is that the writer goes so far out of his way to denigrate her and states the opinion that she should be defined by being Mrs Joe Biden rather than her own accomplishments. It comes across, to me, as being about blatant misogyny rather than the difference between an earned PhD and an MD.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:16 pm
by hepcat
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:15 pm
by Holman
I'm an adjunct college instructor. I've got two Masters but never completed my PhD. Students call *everyone* "Doctor [Lastname]" (even me, though I don't merit it and I correct them when necessary), and it has always been that way in academia. Right-wingers pretending that Jill Biden is putting on airs are lying to you.
And anyway, they've always called Henry Kissinger "Dr. K," and nowadays they give the title to [spits on the ground] "Dr. Seb Gorka."
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:36 pm
by Skinypupy
I certainly did not expect to see that.
https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/stat ... 0026178561
Televangelist Pat Robertson declares that Biden will be president and that Trump "lives in an alternate reality," "is very erratic," and should not run again in 2024: "You've had your day and it's time to move on."
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:49 pm
by Skinypupy
Also, Newsmax has begun initiating their "oh shit, we're gonna get sued into oblivion" protocol.
https://twitter.com/existentialfish/sta ... 5878472706
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:08 pm
by Holman
Skinypupy wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:36 pm
I certainly did not expect to see that.
Televangelist Pat Robertson declares that Biden will be president and that Trump "lives in an alternate reality," "is very erratic," and should not run again in 2024: "You've had your day and it's time to move on."
Wow. And about two weeks ago he announced that God told him Trump would have a second term.
"Coming up next on the
700 Club: Is God a stupid idiot or a lying piece of shit?"
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:31 pm
by hepcat
Watching Fox and the rest of these morons scrambling to cover their asses after Smartmatic reminded them they can’t just make up shit is so gratifying.
Also, I obviously haven’t seen Robertson in a while as I was shocked at how old he looks.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:12 pm
by Alefroth
Is that enough to protect themselves from litigation?
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:39 pm
by Grifman
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:56 pm
A title is different than a profession.
If someone asks her (or any other PhD) what they do, they probably won't say, "I'm a doctor...". They say what they actually do.
Ask an MD or DO and they'll probably say, "I'm a doctor....". Even PharmD's call themselves pharmacists rather than doctors.
Ultimately most non-medical doctors eventually dispense with the title because it just causes confusion. Put the letters at the end of your name rather than in front.
It's why it's kind of jarring to hear about "Dr. Jill". Nothing wrong or incorrect with it, it's just not the norm.
Sorry but I think this is very different in academia. When I went to college, when I spoke with a professor, I always called him/her "Dr. Whatevertheirnamewas". I think in a university/educational setting it is pretty common - at least that was my experience. It's also common in the theological field. I know a number of pastors with doctorates who are known as "Dr. X". And it's funny, no one ever complained about Dr. Kissinger or Dr. Martin Luther King.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:47 pm
by Grifman
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 am
by Kraken
Grifman wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:39 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:56 pm
A title is different than a profession.
If someone asks her (or any other PhD) what they do, they probably won't say, "I'm a doctor...". They say what they actually do.
Ask an MD or DO and they'll probably say, "I'm a doctor....". Even PharmD's call themselves pharmacists rather than doctors.
Ultimately most non-medical doctors eventually dispense with the title because it just causes confusion. Put the letters at the end of your name rather than in front.
It's why it's kind of jarring to hear about "Dr. Jill". Nothing wrong or incorrect with it, it's just not the norm.
Sorry but I think this is very different in academia. When I went to college, when I spoke with a professor, I always called him/her "Dr. Whatevertheirnamewas". I think in a university/educational setting it is pretty common - at least that was my experience. It's also common in the theological field. I know a number of pastors with doctorates who are known as "Dr. X". And it's funny, no one ever complained about Dr. Kissinger or Dr. Martin Luther King.
It's so common that MIT News (and my other sci/tech clients) restricts "Dr." to medical doctors. In any given story, 3/4 of the quoted sources have PhDs. "Doctor" is fine as a courtesy amongst them, but it doesn't inform readers, especially in biology and medical stories where being a medical doctor is relevant. "Professor" carries more weight on the campus news beat.
That said, if I had invested the time, brainpower, and money in a PhD, I'd represent myself as Dr. Kraken in professional contexts.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:28 am
by Paingod
Holman wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:15 pm
I'm an adjunct college instructor. I've got two Masters but never completed my PhD. Students call *everyone* "Doctor [Lastname]" (even me, though I don't merit it and I correct them when necessary)
I've never called anyone who wasn't actively practicing medicine "Doctor" ... not even the instructors/professors at college who have PhD at the end of their emails. No one has ever corrected me, and I've never seen them call themselves "Dr."
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:49 am
by Hamlet3145
On the flip side, I get called Dr. all the time by students in e-mails and I don't hold a doctorate. As far as I can tell, many of them think it means some version of "professor."
I don't bother correcting them because it would be too much of a pain.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:59 am
by YellowKing
I wonder if there's some regional thing to it. We called all of our PhD professors "Doctor" in college.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:25 am
by The Meal
YellowKing wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:59 am
I wonder if there's some regional thing to it. We called all of our PhD professors "Doctor" in college.
That was the case where I went to college as well. However, I've worked with plenty of engineers with PhDs who've insisted on not being called "doctor" (even those coming from an academic background).
I heard on NPR yesterday that the style guide they follow (I forget which, specifically), follows Kraken's MIT guideline: for clarity, only use "doctor" when referring to a medical doctor.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:39 am
by malchior
Smoove_B wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:10 pm
Jaymann wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:05 pm
And right wing fucktards have even sunken to criticizing her dissertation. Let that sink in.
Not just criticizing her dissertation, but doing detailed examinations of potential grammar and syntax issues. These people are unhinged. I don't know if it's politics with a dash of misogyny or it's the other way around but it's beyond contemptible.
Sure but look at this thread and you see why it works. They take a kernel of truth, e.g. there is a difference of opinion on the usage of Dr in different contexts, and wrap it up in something hateful. Then people start talking about the kernel which serves to help normalize the hate. It is fascinating that this works over and over.
Edit: To be clear, I'm not talking about normalizing hate here. I am talking about how this type of discussion works when exposed to a wide audience.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:55 am
by Grifman
Kraken wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 am
It's so common that MIT News (and my other sci/tech clients) restricts "Dr." to medical doctors. In any given story, 3/4 of the quoted sources have PhDs. "Doctor" is fine as a courtesy amongst them, but it doesn't inform readers, especially in biology and medical stories where being a medical doctor is relevant. "Professor" carries more weight on the campus news beat.
The "new beat' has nothing to do with how I found the term being used in a daily academic setting during my academic life.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:20 am
by LawBeefaroni
Grifman wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:39 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:56 pm
A title is different than a profession.
If someone asks her (or any other PhD) what they do, they probably won't say, "I'm a doctor...". They say what they actually do.
Ask an MD or DO and they'll probably say, "I'm a doctor....". Even PharmD's call themselves pharmacists rather than doctors.
Ultimately most non-medical doctors eventually dispense with the title because it just causes confusion. Put the letters at the end of your name rather than in front.
It's why it's kind of jarring to hear about "Dr. Jill". Nothing wrong or incorrect with it, it's just not the norm.
Sorry but I think this is very different in academia. When I went to college, when I spoke with a professor, I always called him/her "Dr. Whatevertheirnamewas". I think in a university/educational setting it is pretty common - at least that was my experience. It's also common in the theological field. I know a number of pastors with doctorates who are known as "Dr. X".
PhD doctorates and aspiring PhD doctorates calling each other doctor isn't surprising. But outside of academia it's not so common. And having spent a good 2 decades working at academic medical institutions, it's not so common there either. Though that may just be for practicality.
Grifman wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:39 pm
And it's funny, no one ever complained about Dr. Kissinger or Dr. Martin Luther King.
Or Dr. J or Dr. Pepper.
I do seem to remember any PhD teaching in high school or grade schools was called Doctor. Alas, don't seem to have that much these days.
Back to Dr. Biden, it may have been common in her career but once she has national exposure it's out of context for most people and can be jarring. Not wrong and I don't get the hate, but it may take some time to catch on. Just like Kissinger (who I still consider Harry instead of Doctor) and King. And Irving.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:39 am
by Jaymann
Countdown to Biden inauguration as President:
29 DAYS
Under a month to go! Agolf is asking his advisors what type of "paperwork" is required to put him on Mt. Rushmore. He tweeted: I should totally replace Hamilton! WAY MORE VOTES!!!
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:59 am
by Blackhawk
The superintendent of my son's school has a doctorate in (something education.) If you ever, ever fail to call her 'doctor', you'll be reminded. Forcefully. And that goes double for the students in the district.
Which is why I never call her 'doctor' and never will.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:13 pm
by LordMortis
Blackhawk wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:59 am
The superintendent of my son's school has a doctorate in (something education.) If you ever, ever fail to call her 'doctor', you'll be reminded. Forcefully. And that goes double for the students in the district.
Which is why I never call her 'doctor' and never will.
If someone got that way with me and I saw no reason to give them what they want, I would respond blankly or say
and?
Pretty much the only people who receive that formal acknowledgement from me were my professors with a known doctorate and my medical doctors. If someone felt the need to give me an etiquette lesson I would possibly rebel and refer to them by a nickname version of their given name. I'm not normally confrontational but trying to culturally educate me on something trivial and unrelated in a confrontational manner tends rub me the wrong way.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:13 pm
by Daveman
Our local school superintendent has a doctorate in education and letters and voicemails from her always include doctor.
I don't get the controversy at all. My only reservation would be with honorary doctorates but it's nothing I'd feel compelled to say anything about, much less write an op-ed about.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:17 pm
by Ralph-Wiggum
Blackhawk wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:59 am
The superintendent of my son's school has a doctorate in (something education.) If you ever, ever fail to call her 'doctor', you'll be reminded. Forcefully. And that goes double for the students in the district.
Which is why I never call her 'doctor' and never will.
Of course, as has been the whole thing with the Dr. Biden "controversy", the question becomes would you have the same forceful reaction if the superintendent was a man?
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:40 pm
by Jaymann
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:17 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:59 am
The superintendent of my son's school has a doctorate in (something education.) If you ever, ever fail to call her 'doctor', you'll be reminded. Forcefully. And that goes double for the students in the district.
Which is why I never call her 'doctor' and never will.
Of course, as has been the whole thing with the Dr. Biden "controversy", the question becomes would you have the same forceful reaction if the superintendent was a man?
No, as long as he was handing out copies of his dissertation with a red marking pen.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:54 pm
by LordMortis
Daveman wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:13 pm
Our local school superintendent has a doctorate in education and letters and voicemails from her always include doctor.
I don't get the controversy at all. My only reservation would be with honorary doctorates but it's nothing I'd feel compelled to say anything about, much less write an op-ed about.
That's fine by me. Address yourself how you think appropriate. If I don't immediately notice and respond with your request for the honor that has no bearing on me, don't cry. If I want something from you and you feel the respect your are owed in title is implicit to your response to me then remember your sense of entitlement when shitting on you is returned in kind. In this case my superintendent is appointed by the school board and the school board are elected and must listen to the community.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:18 pm
by Kurth
I can't believe we're still talking about this "Dr." Jill Biden thing.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:20 pm
by Skinypupy
Kurth wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:18 pm
I can't believe we're still talking about this "Dr." Jill Biden thing.
Kinda feels like it should have it's own thread at this point.
Shit like this seems to be far more concerning.
https://twitter.com/lrozen/status/1341209787241877504
“Trump’s unofficial election advisory council now includes a felon, adherents of the QAnon conspiracy theory, a White House trade adviser and a Russian agent’s former lover.”
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 pm
by Remus West
Maybe it is my complete lack of knowledge regarding QAnon but isn't trump supposed to be Q? How does it work for those who follow Q to see trump in all his idiocy flailing about for options when he is supposed to be this amazing schemer enacting his grand plan? Shouldn't he be revealing his plan to them rather than asking them what his plan should be?
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 pm
by Isgrimnur
Remus West wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 pm
isn't trump supposed to be Q?
No.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:40 pm
by Skinypupy
Remus West wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 pm
Maybe it is my complete lack of knowledge regarding QAnon but isn't trump supposed to be Q? How does it work for those who follow Q to see trump in all his idiocy flailing about for options when he is supposed to be this amazing schemer enacting his grand plan? Shouldn't he be revealing his plan to them rather than asking them what his plan should be?
Q is supposedly someone in Trump's inner circle, not Trump himself. Trump is simply the savior who is ordained by God to bring the liberal Satanic pedophile cabal to justice.
It's an easy mistake to make.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:47 pm
by Defiant
Remus West wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 pm
Maybe it is my complete lack of knowledge regarding QAnon but isn't trump supposed to be Q? How does it work for those who follow Q to see trump in all his idiocy flailing about for options when he is supposed to be this amazing schemer enacting his grand plan? Shouldn't he be revealing his plan to them rather than asking them what his plan should be?
Only a fool would see that
the emperor Trump is
wearing nothing at all flailing about rather than enacting a grand plan designed to make him look like he's flailing about so that his opponents will underestimate him and think he's flailing about.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:49 pm
by Alefroth
Remus West wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:34 pm
Maybe it is my complete lack of knowledge regarding QAnon but isn't trump supposed to be Q? How does it work for those who follow Q to see trump in all his idiocy flailing about for options when he is supposed to be this amazing schemer enacting his grand plan? Shouldn't he be revealing his plan to them rather than asking them what his plan should be?
Any setback they encounter is part of the plan.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:51 pm
by Isgrimnur
All to lull their enemies into a false sense of security.
