Election integrity and the transfer of power

[malchior]

I'm not being hyperbolic here, but after 60 (?) failed lawsuits and now this, I genuinely don't understand how this isn't the beginning of civil war and/or some type of violent attempt to overthrow the government.

I don't think so. States don't have their own armies any more and beyond that we still have a ruling wealth class that does not want the dissolution of the United States. This is something truly different than other crises we faced. It has echoes of pre-Civil War era sedition with a twist of populist driven authoritarianism. And the elites are still at the wheel. How this turns out is anyone's guess.

Am I to believe after all that has been said and done since 11/3, the nation is somehow going to just magically go back to what was done before in every other Presidential election and this isn't going to be the new normal? That this is somehow just a random blip - an aberration that will quickly be forgotten?

I don't even understand what this would look like now. The GOP just throws up their hands and says we were wrong? It isn't human nature. Will there be some clear victor/end state? Probably not. It'll just look like now but worse and worse over time. We will just continue to fail over and over and people will just get used to it. Looking around, 75 Million people declared all this <wave hands in all directions> as *success*.

[Daehawk]

But where are we on lizard people?

They control the Senate.

[malchior]

I think we should stop paying so much attention to the Lin Wood-following Parler/Q cult. Or maybe just keep tabs on them but do it with perspective. Like the Antifa boogeyman, social media makes these guys look much scarier and more like a serious threat than they really are.

I'm not so sure.

According to very recent NPR polling, 17% of Americans agree with the statement "A group of Satan-worshipping elites who run a child sex ring are trying to control our politics and media." Another 37% respond that they don't know. Only 47% reject the claim as false.

QAnon and Q-adjacent conspiracies are spreading like wildfire through right-wing communities, especially churches and online groups. It's as if they heard our joke that "reality has a liberal bias" and decided that that's the actual problem.

I believe it will be at least as big a problem in the Biden years as the Tea Party was under Obama, but the consequences will be culturally rather than just politically dangerous.

This. I mentioned early he was a great canary and he still is. If this was 2008, you could say he is a *fringe* player on the margins and could be ignored. Now he is much closer to the mainstream than people realize. Does that mean US Senators will say this crazy shit out loud? No. But they will act like they are acknowledging it. Hawley and those dumbasses are doing that right now. And they don't repudiate this stuff because it is building them a support base and political capital to pull these stunts. I think ignoring it is a mistake.

Edit: I think we'll get a taste of how bad it'll be in about a month or two. Will they settle into plain obstruction? Or will they refuse to confirm cabinet members, judges, etc. Will they be grandstanding about the failures of the vaccine roll out and pinning it on Biden? Will Trump be calling shots from Twitter the whole time? It is really hard to say but we can't ignore the crazy because it is what is driving actual impacts on stability and governmental legitimacy.

[Kraken]

I'm not being hyperbolic here, but after 60 (?) failed lawsuits and now this, I genuinely don't understand how this isn't the beginning of civil war and/or some type of violent attempt to overthrow the government.

I don't think so. States don't have their own armies any more and beyond that we still have a ruling wealth class that does not want the dissolution of the United States. This is something truly different than other crises we faced. It has echoes of pre-Civil War era sedition with a twist of populist driven authoritarianism. And the elites are still at the wheel. How this turns out is anyone's guess.

Am I to believe after all that has been said and done since 11/3, the nation is somehow going to just magically go back to what was done before in every other Presidential election and this isn't going to be the new normal? That this is somehow just a random blip - an aberration that will quickly be forgotten?

I don't even understand what this would look like now. The GOP just throws up their hands and says we were wrong? It isn't human nature. Will there be some clear victor/end state? Probably not. It'll just look like now but worse and worse over time. We will just continue to fail over and over and people will just get used to it. Looking around, 75 Million people declared all this <wave hands in all directions> as *success*.

Best-case scenario is the GOP splits into McConnell and trump factions who struggle for control of the party. The shenanigans coming on the 6th are about declaring sides. The extent to which they can coexist in the same party is yet to be seen. This assumes that McC retains control of the Senate and lives for a couple more years. Meanwhile, Biden *should* enjoy a covid recovery boom starting in Q3 '21 and running through '22. If the Republicans spend the next two years sniping at one another while Biden projects competence and success, it could end well.

[malchior]

https://twitter.com/EvanMcMullin/status ... 1899945984

[Daehawk]

Im starting to wonder what transfer of power.

[malchior]

The message for the kids is great -- if our evidence free sedition is entirely within the law then that makes it ok.

https://twitter.com/jonathanvswan/statu ... 1528177664

[Daehawk]

But they have no evidence. Just hope and stupidity and assholiness. Hell there was more fraud in 2016. Hasn't been any in this one.

[malchior]

FFS. Hawley went to Yale Law and clerked for Roberts. There is a 0% chance he doesn't know that the paragraph below about mail-in voting is 100% *false*. Hawley is playing a lawyer's game of saying that the specific question about mail-in voting legality didn't get decided directed. I just looked into it. That is strictly true but the court didn't rule on it because they never even got to that question and wouldn't in the future. It would be up to the legislature to work out. The PA Supreme Court actually called out that no one thought the practice was illegal when other elections were held this year. In the end, this "controversy" was created out of thin air to try to invalidate millions of votes to save their cult leader.

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1345578501257232384

[Skinypupy]

FFS. Hawley went to Yale Law and clerked for Roberts. There is a 0% chance he doesn't know that the paragraph below about mail-in voting is 100% *false*. Hawley is playing a lawyer's game of saying that the specific question about mail-in voting legality didn't get decided directed. I just looked into it. That is strictly true but the court didn't rule on it because they never even got to that question and wouldn't in the future. It would be up to the legislature to work out. The PA Supreme Court actually called out that no one thought the practice was illegal when other elections were held this year. In the end, this "controversy" was created out of thin air to try to invalidate millions of votes to save their cult leader.

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1345578501257232384

“Hey, we’re just asking questions here. What’s wrong with having a debate?”

Seems like he’s making it very clear here that this is all absurd political theater for the sole purpose of currying favor with the MAGAs, and they don’t actually intent on it having any practical effect.

[Zaxxon]

Seems like he’s making it very clear here that this is all absurd political theater for the sole purpose of currying favor with the MAGAs, and they don’t actually intent on it having any practical effect.

On the contrary, I quite consider open notification that, should the GOP ever control the Presidency and both chambers of congress again, they intend to ensure that they keep them permanently to be a significant practical effect.

[Skinypupy]

Seems like he’s making it very clear here that this is all absurd political theater for the sole purpose of currying favor with the MAGAs, and they don’t actually intent on it having any practical effect.

On the contrary, I quite consider open notification that, should the GOP ever control the Presidency and both chambers of congress again, they intend to ensure that they keep them permanently to be a significant practical effect.

I was referring to the objections next week, specifically. I agree that this entire episode is proof that they seem perfectly willing to simply overturn an election when they have control.

That said, I do wonder how many of them would be as eager to sign up for this if had even the slightest chance to actually succeed. I get there are a scary number of true believers, but I’d like to think many of them are using this is a lever to gain MAGA cred with zero risk and would balk if it actually meant overthrowing the US government. But who the hell knows at this point.

[malchior]

That said, I do wonder how many of them would be as eager to sign up for this if had even the slightest chance to actually succeed. I get there are a scary number of true believers, but I’d like to think many of them are using this is a lever to gain MAGA cred with zero risk and would balk if it actually meant overthrowing the US government. But who the hell knows at this point.

IMO they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore.

[Smoove_B]

I agree. There needs to be actual, immediate significant consequences for what they're saying. I'm still trying to get my mind around how people literally just elected to the Senate are proclaiming they're going to fight the rampant voter fraud that presumably also elected them. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

And Gohmert is seemingly inciting violence...as an elected official. I know he's just following Trump's lead, but JFC already.

[Zaxxon]

That said, I do wonder how many of them would be as eager to sign up for this if had even the slightest chance to actually succeed. I get there are a scary number of true believers, but I’d like to think many of them are using this is a lever to gain MAGA cred with zero risk and would balk if it actually meant overthrowing the US government. But who the hell knows at this point.

IMO they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore.

This. We are well past any worthwhile postulation as to motive. The tangible effect of GOP actions is to destroy faith in our democracy. Motive is irrelevant (at least as it relates to assigning levels of blame) at this point. This coup attempt is highly unlikely to end with another Trump term, but the medium-to-long-term effect is overthrowing the US government.

Hopefully no one here is taking any solace whatsoever in the fact that this exploratory coup is going to 'fail,' as it has already succeeded past any rational GOP member's wildest dreams. (I include rational because Trump pretty clearly dreamed it'd work.) Here we are in January, a large percentage of GOP voters believes there was widespread fraud and cover-up despite a literal lack of any evidence whatsoever, the EC count is going to be contested by a significant number of elected officials, and Joe Biden is virtually guaranteed to get little to nothing done in his first two years. If both Georgia seats go blue, then perhaps Biden will accomplish something, but only if the Democratic party plays by the GOP game plan of ignoring the other side. Even that would be a win, as it'd stoke Republican voter anger & turnout in 2022.

I really don't see a path forward where the next 2-4 years consist of the country healing its political divide and shoring up its electoral processes. Given that we're at the point where things just barely held despite a decisive win by Biden (without things coming down to any single close state) while his party firmly controlled one chamber of Congress, that's not good enough and will by default set up us the bomb for 2024.

Extremely dangerous times.

[Jaymann]

Countdown to Biden inauguration as President:

17 DAYS

Ted "Democracy Killer" Cruz wants to delay the EC vote while an "independent" death panel investigates voter "fraud." Agolf once said of Cruz: Your wife is ugly, and called him Lyin' Ted.

[Daehawk]

DC is full of and run by power mongering money grubbin attention whores.

[LawBeefaroni]

DC is full of and run by power mongering money grubbin attention whores.

It takes a certain personality to do the job. Lots of crossover with power hunger, greed, and ego.

The problem is that most of our systems of checks on their power and influence are failing.

[Kurth]

I think we should stop paying so much attention to the Lin Wood-following Parler/Q cult. Or maybe just keep tabs on them but do it with perspective. Like the Antifa boogeyman, social media makes these guys look much scarier and more like a serious threat than they really are.

I'm not so sure.

According to very recent NPR polling, 17% of Americans agree with the statement "A group of Satan-worshipping elites who run a child sex ring are trying to control our politics and media." Another 37% respond that they don't know. Only 47% reject the claim as false.

QAnon and Q-adjacent conspiracies are spreading like wildfire through right-wing communities, especially churches and online groups. It's as if they heard our joke that "reality has a liberal bias" and decided that that's the actual problem.

I believe it will be at least as big a problem in the Biden years as the Tea Party was under Obama, but the consequences will be culturally rather than just politically dangerous.

Well . . . polls. And, newsflash: People believe all kinds of crazy shit (e.g., Just 66% of millennials firmly believe the Earth is round.). I'm not freaking out about the flat earth society (Kyrie recanted, btw).

Also, I see the terms "coup" and "sedition" being thrown around a LOT.

coup:

noun
1. a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
"he was overthrown in an army coup"

2. a notable or successful stroke or move.
"it was a major coup to get such a prestigious contract"

sedition:

noun (legal definition)
Sedition is a serious felony punishable by fines and up to 20 years in prison and it refers to the act of inciting revolt or violence against a lawful authority with the goal of destroying or overthrowing it.

While the measures by some in the GOP to object to the EC count based on fraudulent fraud allegations are self-serving and idiotic and are surely damaging to our democracy and our civil fabric, they are not violent and do not actively call for a revolt against our lawful government. They are utilizing procedures specified by our lawful government for objecting to the results of the election. Again, stupid, baseless, harmful, but NOT a coup or sedition. Stating otherwise is hyperbole and diminishes the meaning of those words.

[Smoove_B]

While the measures by some in the GOP to object to the EC count based on fraudulent fraud allegations are self-serving and idiotic and are surely damaging to our democracy and our civil fabric, they are not violent and do not actively call for a revolt against our lawful government. They are utilizing procedures specified by our lawful government for objecting to the results of the election. Again, stupid, baseless, harmful, but NOT a coup or sedition. Stating otherwise is hyperbole and diminishes the meaning of those words.

How would your characterize Gohmert's comments?

I guess we could get into the details and debate the letter of the law while the GOP continues to undermine democracy. While I think I agree that haven't outright called for violent overthrow (yet), I also think they've gone pretty far over the line in terms of what's acceptable. What that means and how it plays out I guess we'll see. However, I can't help but think that 400+ years ago the guillotines would already be constructed and we'd be frog-marching quite a few officials off to the block.

[Daehawk]

Half the country is just looking for an excuse. The type A personality loud folks.

[malchior]

I really don't see a path forward where the next 2-4 years consist of the country healing its political divide and shoring up its electoral processes. Given that we're at the point where things just barely held despite a decisive win by Biden (without things coming down to any single close state) while his party firmly controlled one chamber of Congress, that's not good enough and will by default set up us the bomb for 2024.

Extremely dangerous times.

I agree and urge people to really zoom out and consider what the last year was like at a large scale. Too often lost in all this is the scope of failure we saw at the Federal level. A real quick list below but you could zoom into any of these areas and see massive and unacceptable levels of failure. It is hard to see what we can even call success which should stand out from this sea of failure. We're a complete mess. The bottom line is that hundreds of thousands of people died who shouldn't have. That will be one of the key takeaways from this era.

How do you heal from that while the people responsible are still rampaging inside the system? It is an impossible task.

Failures:

• Common defense
  • Foreign attackers broke into multiple Federal and State agencies and major private corporations
    • The Head of State failed to make a single factual comment about this
    • There is still little Federal effort to assess the damage to public/private institutions from this attack and inform defenders in the private sector

• Coronavirus
  • Testing
    • Early on did not create an adequate test kit
    • Struggled to develop national testing strategy and support states
    • President actively discouraged testing and consequent visibility to the pandemic
  • Containment
    • 
  • Mitigation
    • No Federal strategy for disease mitigation
    • Federal government did not use its powers to maximize supply production, procurement, and distribution
      • Pitted states against each other
      • Created a task force run by unqualified interns and President's son-in-law that had no positive impact and may have hindered efforts
      • Federal agencies stole supplies from states in need and forced several to go underground to procure necessary supplies
  • Eradication
    • 
  • Vaccination
    • Failed to provide vaccination rollout strategy support to overwhelmed states

• Economic impact of Coronavirus
  • Individual
    • Far too limited unemployment support and direct financial support for impacted individuals
      • Ran far behind support provided to every other advanced economy by significant margins
  • Business
    • Partial failure (successes below)
      • PPP program provided support to many businesses
      • However it was too small in scope and biased heavily in favor of large businesses

• Governance
  • Attacks on Governance
    • Systematic elimination of Inspector Generals
    • Retaliatory actions on whistleblowers
    • Abuse of pardon power
  • Impeachment
    • Transparent sham Senate trial of President

Successes:

• Common Defense / Government
  • Ran and protected the Federal elections in 2020
    • CISA worked with states to protect their elections

• Coronavirus
  • Vaccination
    • Operation Warp speed supported the creation of vaccines at a record pace

• Economic impact of Coronavirus
  • Business
    • Identified and protected key industries - (e.g. airlines)
  • Monetary
    • Federal bank acted decisively to protect financial system

[Holman]

This. We are well past any worthwhile postulation as to motive. The tangible effect of GOP actions is to destroy faith in our democracy. Motive is irrelevant (at least as it relates to assigning levels of blame) at this point. This coup attempt is highly unlikely to end with another Trump term, but the medium-to-long-term effect is overthrowing the US government.

Hopefully no one here is taking any solace whatsoever in the fact that this exploratory coup is going to 'fail,' as it has already succeeded past any rational GOP member's wildest dreams. (I include rational because Trump pretty clearly dreamed it'd work.) Here we are in January, a large percentage of GOP voters believes there was widespread fraud and cover-up despite a literal lack of any evidence whatsoever, the EC count is going to be contested by a significant number of elected officials, and Joe Biden is virtually guaranteed to get little to nothing done in his first two years. If both Georgia seats go blue, then perhaps Biden will accomplish something, but only if the Democratic party plays by the GOP game plan of ignoring the other side. Even that would be a win, as it'd stoke Republican voter anger & turnout in 2022.

I really don't see a path forward where the next 2-4 years consist of the country healing its political divide and shoring up its electoral processes. Given that we're at the point where things just barely held despite a decisive win by Biden (without things coming down to any single close state) while his party firmly controlled one chamber of Congress, that's not good enough and will by default set up us the bomb for 2024.

Extremely dangerous times.

Right.

The reason more GOPers are deciding to bend with this wind isn't to save Trump (whom they want out of their hair anyway) but to normalize new levels of voter suppression.

Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley aren't in this to save Donald Trump. They're in it for Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, and they know the only way to save their GOP prospects is to suppress the rising numbers of minority voters uninterested in the Republicans' mixed model of white supremacy and socialism for the 1%. You'll note that *all* of the accusations they make about voter fraud are about large numbers of votes coming from Democrat-leaning large cities.

This is why the Lincoln Project has begun branding them as the Jim Crow Coalition Caucus. I say we go with that.

[malchior]

The reason more GOPers are deciding to bend with this wind isn't to save Trump (whom they want out of their hair anyway) but to normalize new levels of voter suppression.

It goes well beyond this. Voter suppression is definitely in there but their goal is to enshrine that only Republican governance (as far as it can be called governance) is legitimate. Either by denying opponents elections or denying them power after election. This is driven by a negative feedback loop where bad behavior is highly incentivized. We will get yet another set of data in support of this on January 6th.

There will be no consequences from their games. Instead, Cruz and Hawley will be rewarded and instead gain support to go on to disrupt other processes which will lead to more rewards, etc. It will only continue to get worse. It is like a breeder reactor in a runaway state at this point.

[LawBeefaroni]

While the measures by some in the GOP to object to the EC count based on fraudulent fraud allegations are self-serving and idiotic and are surely damaging to our democracy and our civil fabric, they are not violent and do not actively call for a revolt against our lawful government. They are utilizing procedures specified by our lawful government for objecting to the results of the election. Again, stupid, baseless, harmful, but NOT a coup or sedition. Stating otherwise is hyperbole and diminishes the meaning of those words.

A coup isn't necessarily violent. Blood isn't a requirement by definition.

And the main concern isn't a "legal" takeover, it's the call to stand ready for action in the event the "legal" bid doesn't work. That is seditious talk and threat of a coup.

Sure, someone calling Hawley's shit an act of sedition is hyperbole. That doesn't diminish the fact that there have been plenty of calls for actual sedition.

[Holman]

Yep. "Bloodless coup" is a thing, and we're watching the build-up to one right now.

Cruz insisted in interviews this morning that his proposed "commission" would have the power to set aside the election results.

[Holman]

Incidentally, today is the opening day of the new Congress.

Members are being seated who on Wednesday will argue that their own elections were fraudulent and should be thrown out.

Why are they taking their oaths today?

[Jaymann]

Incidentally, today is the opening day of the new Congress.

Members are being seated who on Wednesday will argue that their own elections were fraudulent and should be thrown out.

Why are they taking their oaths today?

According to LIn Wood they can't be executed by firing squad until they violate their oath.

[Holman]

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/stat ... 00897?s=20

“The people of Georgia are angry, the people in the country are angry,” [Trump] said. “And there’s nothing wrong with saying, you know, um, that you’ve recalculated.”

Raffensperger responded: “Well, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is, the data you have is wrong.”

At another point, Trump said: “So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. Because we won the state.”

Impeach him again. Do it right now.

[Smoove_B]

Impeach him again. Do it right now.

I'd be on my 4th or 5th impeachment attempt this year if it was up to me. It's also probably why I'd make a poor politician. The damage he's caused - and continues to cause - is beyond comprehension. I don't know how we recover from this, and I say that genuinely.

[LawBeefaroni]

Impeach him again. Do it right now.

I'd be on my 4th or 5th impeachment attempt this year if it was up to me. It's also probably why I'd make a poor politician. The damage he's caused - and continues to cause - is beyond comprehension. I don't know how we recover from this, and I say that genuinely.

We never recover. We can hope to survive in a lesser state.

[Zaxxon]

Uh-huh. I won't utter my tagline again, but it's truer than ever.

[Skinypupy]

Impeach him again. Do it right now.

I'd be on my 4th or 5th impeachment attempt this year if it was up to me. It's also probably why I'd make a poor politician. The damage he's caused - and continues to cause - is beyond comprehension. I don't know how we recover from this, and I say that genuinely.

We never recover. We can hope to survive in a lesser state.

This.

I’m fairly sure at this point that we will continue to degrade until the safeguards (that are barely holding now) finally break entirely. After that, who knows.

I’d love to proven wrong, but I don’t see how.

[Smoove_B]

Just saw this:

https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/sta ... 3455559680

Trumpism is an American autocratic movement with Fascistic markers. There are seven specific parts that comprise its core 1. THE LEADER. Donald Trump is the unquestioned leader of this movement. It is a cult of personality and there are no serious challengers against his (1)

If you'd rather read it unrolled.

[Jaymann]

Impeach him again. Do it right now.

I'd be on my 4th or 5th impeachment attempt this year if it was up to me. It's also probably why I'd make a poor politician. The damage he's caused - and continues to cause - is beyond comprehension. I don't know how we recover from this, and I say that genuinely.

We never recover. We can hope to survive in a lesser state.

This.

I’m fairly sure at this point that we will continue to degrade until the safeguards (that are barely holding now) finally break entirely. After that, who knows.

I’d love to proven wrong, but I don’t see how.

The only miniscule path I see is the Dems win the Senate and pass the Election Integrity and Transfer of Power Act of 2021. Of course it will be repealed once the pendulum swings back, but it may hold for a cycle or two.

[Skinypupy]

I get that Dems don’t have the same media propaganda apparatus that the GOP does, but why the fuck aren’t Biden and Harris visibly out in front of this? Why are they not on the Sunday morning talk shows? Why are they not being interviewed on the nightly news shows calling this out as the blatant bullshit it is? I get that it will never be amplified to the extent that Trump is, but say something FFS.

I just looked at Biden’s Twitter and there’s literally no specific mention of any of this over the past few days. It’s all very general “our best days are ahead” and “we must pull together to overcome challenges” drivel. I get that they expect the process to play out and recognize this for the political theater it is, but they should be calling out these traitors loudly and often for the damage they’re doing to our country.

The silence - broken only by the occasional “tsk tsk” - is frustrating.

[Smoove_B]

I think they're engaging in the time honored tradition of not giving the other side any oxygen. Which sounds great, except we're dealing with actual Nazis and elected officials that want to take full control of the government. I'm not sure flat-out ignoring them is the right strategy here either. That's what's been driving me nuts about all this. "What's the harm? They can say these things - it's America." No, I don't believe that at all. We've just had 4 years of a President and his enablers saying the more reprehensible things without any type of push-back or formal condemnation. Now we've moved on to openly trying to tamper with elections and suppress the votes of entire demographic groups of Americans. This isn't "engaging in the marketplace of ideas" - it's stoking the flames.

[Holman]

Here’s the audio of Trump trying to get the Georgia SoS to commit election fraud for him. First he asks, then he complains, then he issues the threat that not helping him is illegal.

https://twitter.com/volinxx/status/1345 ... 60481?s=21

[malchior]

That folks is actual evidence of an attempted autocoup. Just because it isn't successful doesn't make it any less so.

[Skinypupy]

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status ... 6333015040

Every Republican challenging the Electoral College certification should have to listen to this audio in full and respond to it before the vote takes place this week.