Blackhawk wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:01 pm
To be honest, I ate lunch indoors today. My son got a gift card to Azzip (a pizza place) for his birthday, and they had outdoor dining. We got there right after a rain and everything outside was soaked. When we went in to order, though, we were literally the only people in the building except for two staff, who were masked.
We sat in the far corner and ate.
Here, you're relying (trusting?) that the building/room has adequate ventilation. Namely that they're actively circulating the air. Remember, we now know that SARS-CoV-2 under the right environmental conditions can remain airborne (i.e. hanging out, floating in the air) for up to 3 hours. This means that you're potentially breathing the air of people that were in there, unmasked, for up to 3 hours prior to your visit. In other words, they're long gone but you're breathing in the viral particles they exhaled that are still floating around, looking for a meat factory to replicate in. Adequate/appropriate ventilation reduces that risk significantly.
NOTE: Not trying to cause anxiety, just clarifying my (apparently) controversial opinion for many people.
We're going out tonight, as we've done weekly since becoming fully vaxxed. I realize it's the riskiest thing either of us does. MA's covid numbers aren't alarming yet, although they're steadily growing. At some point -- probably quite soon, now that fall is settling in and school's in session -- I'm going to declare that we're going back to takeout-only, because I'm quite sure the government won't make the decision for us and shut down restaurants again. Wife understands and is OK with trusting my judgment.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Blackhawk wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:01 pm
To be honest, I ate lunch indoors today. My son got a gift card to Azzip (a pizza place) for his birthday, and they had outdoor dining. We got there right after a rain and everything outside was soaked. When we went in to order, though, we were literally the only people in the building except for two staff, who were masked.
We sat in the far corner and ate.
Here, you're relying (trusting?) that the building/room has adequate ventilation. Namely that they're actively circulating the air. Remember, we now know that SARS-CoV-2 under the right environmental conditions can remain airborne (i.e. hanging out, floating in the air) for up to 3 hours. This means that you're potentially breathing the air of people that were in there, unmasked, for up to 3 hours prior to your visit. In other words, they're long gone but you're breathing in the viral particles they exhaled that are still floating around, looking for a meat factory to replicate in. Adequate/appropriate ventilation reduces that risk significantly.
NOTE: Not trying to cause anxiety, just clarifying my (apparently) controversial opinion for many people.
I know that we never really tried consistent contact tracing for reasons that are no doubt very good, but is there evidence of COVID cases resulting from situations like this? E.g., someone with COVID being in an indoor place for awhile, then someone who comes in after they're gone getting it? This all makes some sense, but I'm wondering whether this is theory or whether there's data / empirical support for this.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:53 pm
by Smoove_B
El Guapo wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:48 pm
I know that we never really tried consistent contact tracing for reasons that are no doubt very good, but is there evidence of COVID cases resulting from situations like this? E.g., someone with COVID being in an indoor place for awhile, then someone who comes in after they're gone getting it? This all makes some sense, but I'm wondering whether this is theory or whether there's data / empirical support for this.
There was a meta-study of 14 previously reported studies that was published back in February of 2021 demonstrating strong evidence for indirect airborne transmission. Remember, this was before Delta. I haven't seen any studies focused on Delta and indoor transmission, but going by the general observation that people are fountain-spraying Delta into the environment, I'm guessing the overall risk for indirect indoor spread is greater.
To a lesser degree, this does also support what we see happening nationwide with schools, because kids are apparently now the latest source of data. Namely that when comparing student populations where masks are utilized vs not utilized, rates are lower. Where it gets a bit tricky is where the academics and researchers argue over droplet (heavy particles, direct) spread vs airborne (light, floaty particles) spread. Everything I've seen so far and that has been communicated to me by experts is that COVID-19 is spread via both routes - which is why wearing masks is so important.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Remember when yard darts killed three kids and were consequently banned forever?
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:37 pm
by Daehawk
I still have my original set some place I think. Also I think they were called Lawn Jarts.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:28 pm
by Victoria Raverna
Smoove_B wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:07 am
Right, unless that community is under some type of mandatory mask order (I'll pause here for laughter), the owner is free to kick out people wearing masks as he sees fit.
However, above and beyond parents with immunocompromised kids, I'm going to take the controversial position that no one should be eating indoors at a restaurant at this time. This includes kids in a school cafeteria. I know it's not a popular opinion, but being masked indoors around other people also unmasked with unknown vaccination status right now is not a good idea.
Kinda strange that people are against mandatory mask order because of "freedom" but then there is this restaurant that has mandatory mask ban and "freedom" doesn't matter anymore.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:35 pm
by malchior
Americans have an innate talent for masquerading their malevolence behind fake expressions of our founding principles.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Blackhawk wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:01 pm
To be honest, I ate lunch indoors today. My son got a gift card to Azzip (a pizza place) for his birthday, and they had outdoor dining. We got there right after a rain and everything outside was soaked. When we went in to order, though, we were literally the only people in the building except for two staff, who were masked.
We sat in the far corner and ate.
Here, you're relying (trusting?) that the building/room has adequate ventilation. Namely that they're actively circulating the air. Remember, we now know that SARS-CoV-2 under the right environmental conditions can remain airborne (i.e. hanging out, floating in the air) for up to 3 hours. This means that you're potentially breathing the air of people that were in there, unmasked, for up to 3 hours prior to your visit. In other words, they're long gone but you're breathing in the viral particles they exhaled that are still floating around, looking for a meat factory to replicate in. Adequate/appropriate ventilation reduces that risk significantly.
NOTE: Not trying to cause anxiety, just clarifying my (apparently) controversial opinion for many people.
My wife got infected having dinner with her friends outdoor. So even with good ventilation, it is still dangerous depend on how close you're with others. My wife went for a dinner with 4 of her friends. Turned out one of them got infected a few days before that but didn't know about it. End result of the dinner, my wife and all of her friends were infected.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Daehawk wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:58 am
What about people in khaki pants?
Yes he could, and that was exactly his defense: dress code
Daehawk wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:58 am
Or gay folks next? Skin black? Out you go.
Now that would be discrimination.
Muslim head scarf? Burka? Are those still just dress code or discrimination.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:43 pm
by Smoove_B
Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:37 pm
My wife got infected having dinner with her friends outdoor. So even with good ventilation, it is still dangerous depend on how close you're with others. My wife went for a dinner with 4 of her friends. Turned out one of them got infected a few days before that but didn't know about it. End result of the dinner, my wife and all of her friends were infected.
I absolutely would not be eating outdoors either in crowded environments - or socializing with people outdoors unmasked in crowded situations. "Crowded" is a bit more hard to quantify and would include numerous variables, but I do not believe being outdoors unmasked in a group setting is as safe as it was in 2020. So my policy of continuing to avoid people will continue.
I did not get the Social Distancing Champion Award in 2020 for nothing.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
El Guapo wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:48 pm
I know that we never really tried consistent contact tracing for reasons that are no doubt very good, but is there evidence of COVID cases resulting from situations like this? E.g., someone with COVID being in an indoor place for awhile, then someone who comes in after they're gone getting it? This all makes some sense, but I'm wondering whether this is theory or whether there's data / empirical support for this.
There was a meta-study of 14 previously reported studies that was published back in February of 2021 demonstrating strong evidence for indirect airborne transmission. Remember, this was before Delta. I haven't seen any studies focused on Delta and indoor transmission, but going by the general observation that people are fountain-spraying Delta into the environment, I'm guessing the overall risk for indirect indoor spread is greater.
To a lesser degree, this does also support what we see happening nationwide with schools, because kids are apparently now the latest source of data. Namely that when comparing student populations where masks are utilized vs not utilized, rates are lower. Where it gets a bit tricky is where the academics and researchers argue over droplet (heavy particles, direct) spread vs airborne (light, floaty particles) spread. Everything I've seen so far and that has been communicated to me by experts is that COVID-19 is spread via both routes - which is why wearing masks is so important.
So now it is official that COVID-19 is airborne?
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:46 pm
by Smoove_B
Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:43 pm
So now it is official that COVID-19 is airborne?
I believe so, yes. At least in the scientific/academic/Infectious disease community, and from the CDC at least since May of 2021.
Modes of SARS-CoV-2 transmission are now categorized as inhalation of virus, deposition of virus on exposed mucous membranes, and touching mucous membranes with soiled hands contaminated with virus.
The details are provided lower on the page, but:
The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. Exposure occurs in three principal ways: (1) inhalation of very fine respiratory droplets and aerosol particles, (2) deposition of respiratory droplets and particles on exposed mucous membranes in the mouth, nose, or eye by direct splashes and sprays, and (3) touching mucous membranes with hands that have been soiled either directly by virus-containing respiratory fluids or indirectly by touching surfaces with virus on them.
People release respiratory fluids during exhalation (e.g., quiet breathing, speaking, singing, exercise, coughing, sneezing) in the form of droplets across a spectrum of sizes.1-9 These droplets carry virus and transmit infection.
The largest droplets settle out of the air rapidly, within seconds to minutes.
The smallest very fine droplets, and aerosol particles formed when these fine droplets rapidly dry, are small enough that they can remain suspended in the air for minutes to hours.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:28 pm
by Kraken
A lot of restaurants/bars in Boston have large accordion-style windows that open onto the street. Many suburban establishments emulate that design to convey an urban feel. The place we went tonight had its windows open and our table was next to one. We were mostly breathing outdoor air, and the restaurant was nearly empty anyway.
Also, our covid numbers have been edging lower for the past week or two -- the seven-day positivity rate fell to 2.0%, and we're doing a ton of testing -- so the alarms are still not ringing here.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:33 pm
by Defiant
IANAL, but ideally, I would hope that their are laws about safety and health that might be more applicable, since they're being prevented from using something for a medical purpose that doesn't interfere with the business. This seems analogous to not being allowed to wear suntan lotion and sunglasses at an outdoor restaurant, or not being allowed to wear ear plugs at a concert to reduce the volume and protect hearing. They might be legal, but I don't think it should be.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:23 pm
by Daehawk
All you hear from businesses like travel, food, amusement is lets get back to normal. Lets start the recovery. Lets get people moving and into stores. Do they not realize Covid is still here or that its worse than ever? Now even the young are sick and dying.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Smoove_B wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:10 pm
Another video showing what parents are encouraging in Michigan:
Students at a school in Manchester, MI, instigated by parents, refuse to comply with the mask mandate and enter school. This is the next phase - school boards can enact policies, but someone also has to enforce them.
"They can't touch you"
Unreal.
Manchester, is not you would call... progressive... It might be what *I* would call... A jurisdiction I would avoid since the rise of MAGA...
Also if I were a teacher I would walk out. But then teachers in Manchester might not have that same attitude. If I were a student, I'd walk out as well...
"Be kind and respectful" after "It's not the law, it's a mandate..."
My understanding through the grapevine is that the students were all directed to a single classroom where they were contained the entire day. The students have since been back and there has not been more push back regarding masks. As to how they are wearing them......well, kids in my school are 100% wearing but I still see some with it below their nose and some even under the chin. I told a kid today that if he wanted to stay in my class his mask needed to remain over his nose. He tested me with 5 minutes left in class. I wrote my first referral of the school year and kicked him out. Everyone else in class laughed at him and several reminded him I had warned him as he left unhappily (but without much fuss really).
edit: and I just now noticed how many pages back I was in reading this thread. lol.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
(April, 2020) Marr is an aerosol scientist at Virginia Tech and one of the few in the world who also studies infectious diseases. To her, the new coronavirus looked as if it could hang in the air, infecting anyone who breathed in enough of it. For people indoors, that posed a considerable risk. But the WHO didn’t seem to have caught on. Just days before, the organization had tweeted “FACT: #COVID19 is NOT airborne.” That’s why Marr was skipping her usual morning workout to join 35 other aerosol scientists. They were trying to warn the WHO it was making a big mistake.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:14 pm
by Drazzil
I'm just going to leave this here: The Hermin Cain award on reddit.
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis announced Tuesday that the state's new surgeon general will be Joseph Ladapo, a UCLA researcher known for opposing evidence-based mask mandates, vaccine mandates, and lockdowns.
Instead, Dr. Ladapo advocates for the controversial idea of embracing "the reality of viral spread" to achieve herd immunity.
"Florida will completely reject fear as a way of making policies in public health," Ladapo said in a press conference Tuesday after DeSantis announced his appointment. Fear, he said, has "been unfortunately a centerpiece of health policy in the United States ever since the beginning of the pandemic and it's over here. Expiration date: it's done."
Florida has been one of the hardest-hit states in the pandemic, particularly amid the current wave driven by the hypertransmissible delta coronavirus variant. In early August, the Sunshine State accounted for 20 percent of all COVID-19 cases occurring in the US. Throughout the wave—which is finally receding in Florida—DeSantis has opposed vaccine mandates and fiercely fought mask mandates in schools.
Ladapo appears to share his thinking. In a series of opinion pieces in The Wall Street Journal, Ladapo has argued against mask mandates and vaccine mandates and played up fears about the safety of COVID-19 vaccines, which have been found to be remarkably safe as well as effective. Meanwhile, Ladapo has pointed to unproven and ineffective treatments, such as ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, as treatments for COVID-19.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Alberta's UCP government is asking Ottawa for immediate help to lessen pressure on the province's health-care system, which is overburdened with COVID-19 patients.
Municipal Affairs Minister Ric McIver formally requested aid and an immediate meeting with federal Public Safety Minister Bill Blair in a Tuesday letter.
He asked for the federal government to provide aero-medical evacuation capability to relocate patients out of Alberta, and intensive care unit (ICU) registered nurses and respiratory therapists to assist in Alberta's critical care response.
"Federal assistance in these two areas has the potential to create significant relief to the health-care system," McIver wrote.
Alberta's ICU capacity is currently at 87 per cent, but without added surge beds — which health-care workers have said are not adequately staffed — the province would be at 169 per cent of its baseline capacity.
There are 222 COVID-19 patients in the province's ICUs. There are nearly 1,000 Albertans in hospital with COVID-19, and the province has identified more than 20,900 active cases.
Surgeries have been cancelled across the province to free up health-care workers to deal with the crisis.
Health Minister Tyler Shandro was notably not a signatory on the letter. The embattled minister was shuffled into another cabinet portfolio on Tuesday. Jason Copping is taking over the key cabinet position.
Blair said federal officials have offered help to their Alberta counterparts throughout the past week.
"I have made it clear that when a request is received, it will be approved. We will work together to provide for the people across Alberta," he said in a statement posted to social media.
Alberta asked other provinces for help last week when it declared a state of public health emergency. Neighbouring provinces Saskatchewan and British Columbia had said they could not offer assistance due to demands on their own health-care systems, but distant provinces like Ontario have offered help.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:20 pm
by Isgrimnur
Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD, is a physician and health policy researcher whose primary research interests include assessing the cost-effectiveness of diagnostic technologies and reducing the population burden of cardiovascular disease.
He’s no Nate Silver, but doesn’t seem that far off.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:49 pm
by Daehawk
Soon as he dies Im sure the next moron is ready to step up to the guillotine.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:05 am
by Drazzil
Daehawk wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:49 pm
Soon as he dies Im sure the next moron is ready to step up to the guillotine.
See here's the part that pisses me off: These fuckin idiots who get sick are airlifted from their red state flyover shithole towns and cities and clog the facilities of blue states. I read several articles that say that most of the people in the ICU's are red state vaccine deniers.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:25 am
by Isgrimnur
Even the bluest states are 30%+ red.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:26 am
by stessier
Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:25 am
Even the bluest states are 30%+ red.
And vice versa.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Joseph A. Ladapo, MD, PhD, is a physician and health policy researcher whose primary research interests include assessing the cost-effectiveness of diagnostic technologies and reducing the population burden of cardiovascular disease.
He’s no Nate Silver, but doesn’t seem that far off.
That's like saying "kill them all and let God sort them out".
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Daehawk wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:49 pm
Soon as he dies Im sure the next moron is ready to step up to the guillotine.
See here's the part that pisses me off: These fuckin idiots who get sick are airlifted from their red state flyover shithole towns and cities and clog the facilities of blue states. I read several articles that say that most of the people in the ICU's are red state vaccine deniers.
There was a story about how a Florida "vaccine hesitant" family did a July 4th gathering and basically the whole extended family caught COVID. One had to be intubated, and the only way to get better was to get on an ECMO machine (artificial breathing and heart) and there ain't any available within 3 states and 169 hospitals. The wife somehow got lucky and got profiled by the Today Show or something, and some hospital all the way in Hartford Connecticut (1200 miles away) offered him a bed with ECMO, so he got on a med flight and was saved after more than 3 weeks on ECMO. Now he's pro-vax, supposedly, and said NOBODY unvaccinated gets to visit him. Huh...
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Daehawk wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:49 pm
Soon as he dies Im sure the next moron is ready to step up to the guillotine.
See here's the part that pisses me off: These fuckin idiots who get sick are airlifted from their red state flyover shithole towns and cities and clog the facilities of blue states. I read several articles that say that most of the people in the ICU's are red state vaccine deniers.
There was a story about how a Florida "vaccine hesitant" family did a July 4th gathering and basically the whole extended family caught COVID. One had to be intubated, and the only way to get better was to get on an ECMO machine (artificial breathing and heart) and there ain't any available within 3 states and 169 hospitals. The wife somehow got lucky and got profiled by the Today Show or something, and some hospital all the way in Hartford Connecticut (1200 miles away) offered him a bed with ECMO, so he got on a med flight and was saved after more than 3 weeks on ECMO. Now he's pro-vax, supposedly, and said NOBODY unvaccinated gets to visit him. Huh...
That story is in the other thread. Apparently, it influenced dozens of people to get vaccinated. Is it as effective as having Republican governors advocate for vaccination? No. But at this stage of the game, it's better than nothing. And maybe it influenced or will influence (presuming the story has legs) more people to get vaccinated than if he died.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:38 am
by Ralph-Wiggum
Florida's new Surgeon General is anti-mask and anti-vaccine mandates. What could go wrong?
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:02 am
by Max Peck
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:38 am
Florida's new Surgeon General is anti-mask and anti-vaccine mandates. What could go wrong?
To be fair, he apparently balances that out by being pro-ivermectin and pro-hydroxychloroquine.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:20 pm
by Octavious
When you think it can't get any crazier. And this asshole is being hailed as a hero by the right. Bunch of psychos.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:00 pm
by Daehawk
He believed the crap.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:01 pm
by Blackhawk
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:38 am
Florida's new Surgeon General is anti-mask and anti-vaccine mandates. What could go wrong?
Nothing. They're essentially already following his plan.
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:21 pm
by Octavious
Daehawk wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:00 pm
He believed the crap.
Bet he didn't eat his fruit and veggies. So depressing...
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:58 pm
by Grifman
This truck drove around Bank of America Stadium in Charlotte before the Panthers game this past Sunday:
Re: The Politics of Covid 19, mask wearing and the vaccination process
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:04 pm
by LawBeefaroni
Grifman wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:58 pm
This truck drove around Bank of America Stadium in Charlotte before the Panthers game this past Sunday:
I think it was posted in one of the several COVID threads but worth a repeat.
(Also, that Boone Oakley sign is annoying, what is that?)
