BSG VII -Sabotage -Game Over-Minor Victory-Humans

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:26 am

Congratulations to all the humans on a game well played and a nice victory!

Congratulations, especially to Semaj. You had a lot of pressure on you with that last vote. Very nicely done!

I only wish you would have taken the 30 minutes to finish off the Guinness. Maybe that last drop would have fired a "Lagom" electrode through your brain.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:30 am

Lassr wrote:If Zarek is used again, his power would have to be tweaked. One rule change would be allowing to recruit after a Cylon lynch.
Doc's role will change.
Doc may send one PM and get one reply from either the most recent night or day kill. May PM with the night kill at any time before the next death occurs. After any death during the day (including lynch victim) Doc may request the PM immediately and get an immediate reply; no waiting period. May be used on any kill no matter the method of death but it has to be the most recent kill. One usage per day cycle.

Does that mean the Doc gets 1 PM per game? OR does it mean he gets 1 PM per person (lynch/killed player) per night or day turn...so effectively he'd get about 15 PM's just about.

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:32 am

WHOO! I AN SLEEP NOW.

(Yeah I was in my bed going, must..know..outcome...)

My final decision making process:
After going through and posting 37 posts on my re-read the one that stuck in my mind the most was:

Semaj wrote:must not convince mself Q and msteelers are in cahoots...

going to fail

Just a hunch I had been thinking... so when I voted, other than the last vote (RMC over Q, where if someone hadn't switched votes, I was voting Q), I was voting for people who I would have no idea who to vote for on the final day. To make the decision making process mildly easier. In hindsight, just voting the guy your sure is evil off first might be better for others

Last night I went back ~10 pages and was glancing an saw:
LL posting his hug threads during the LM-airlock/needle day where he decides Q and Msteelers are probably the final cylons. Flip-flops on Q to LM, and then goes back to Q... it HAS to be Q..

And I wondered if he had the foresight to expect himself/Quantaga and someone else to be in the final 3... and decided if he really was _that_ good... he deserved the win, lol.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:34 am

Newcastle wrote:
Lassr wrote:If Zarek is used again, his power would have to be tweaked. One rule change would be allowing to recruit after a Cylon lynch.
Doc's role will change.
Doc may send one PM and get one reply from either the most recent night or day kill. May PM with the night kill at any time before the next death occurs. After any death during the day (including lynch victim) Doc may request the PM immediately and get an immediate reply; no waiting period. May be used on any kill no matter the method of death but it has to be the most recent kill. One usage per day cycle.
Does that mean the Doc gets 1 PM per game? OR does it mean he gets 1 PM per person (lynch/killed player) per night or day turn...so effectively he'd get about 15 PM's just about.

1 PM per game day. So in this game he would have had a chance to have 8 PMs since it lasted 8 game days.

and for example:
The day grund went boom; he could have pmed Remus (night kill) up until Grund went boom. If he did not PM remus then he would have had a chance to PM Grund or stessier (boomer and boom victim), if he did neither then he could have waited and PMed lynch victim which was LordMortis. That's the end of the day. Cycle starts again the next day.

think of it like this; as Doc is checking their pulse they whisper a comment in his ear as they die.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:42 am

Obviously, there were a lot of factors that contributed to the final outcome, but I think there were two incredibly key factors in securing the human victory:

1. bb2112 Protecting theohall

When theo went to n-2 and claimed Athena on the very first day, I was stunned that bb2112 (Starbuck) protected theohall. Any Cylon at n-2 would have claimed Athena. Knowing that Athena would be able to provide, at most, only one more scan, while Starbuck could thwart the Cylons throughout the game, was an amazing leap of faith on bb2112's part to risk protecting theo. There is no way I would have risked protecting theo that night (in Starbuck's shoes).

Congratulations bb2112. Your faith in theo cost us a night kill, and the following use of a sedation and a shot that would have been very powerful for us if we could have saved them for later in the game.

2. Lagom's 11 Minutes

The entire game turned a week and a half ago on an 11 minute period. The three provens (Unagi, Chaos, and pr0ner) had all voted on LordMortis. Lagom came in and put LM at n-1 saying he didn't have the inclination for a re-read. Then, 11 minutes later, he popped back in, withdrew LM, and went through his re-read of the first half of the game. (I really wish he wouldn't have stopped at page 40

). Whatever prompted Lagom to change his mind in that 11 minutes contributed greatly to saving humanity. His re-read caused him to lock in on me. In a normal game, I would have killed him that night and taken my chances. With all the provens in the game, though, there was no way for us to get rid of Lagom. His conviction of my guilt carried him to the last day and ultimately to the human victory.

Congratulations Lagom.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:56 am

stessier wrote:Unagi - did you ever figure out I was Zarek? Just wondering as I tried to let you know and I couldn't tell if you picked up on it.

I did not.

I actually didn't ever really try though... as I really felt that it was likely to be short-lived. (the victory condition)
Sorry about that.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:07 pm

Unagi, I posted a reply to your last few posts over in the spoiler thread.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:08 pm

Qantaga wrote:
Unagi wrote:yeah. Qantaga.

He's due.

Thankfully, I can finally shred this albatross that has followed me for the past several games.

I AM NO LONGER DUE.

Eh, dice have no memory. You're still due just as much as anyone else. We'll lynch you first next game just to be sure.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:11 pm

Remus West wrote: Eh, dice have no memory. You're still due just as much as anyone else.

Quite true. But, at least now, Scoop, tru1cy, and Unagi can't single me out for it. They'll have to encompass all of the dice, and not just mine, from now on.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:15 pm

Qantaga wrote:
Remus West wrote: Eh, dice have no memory. You're still due just as much as anyone else.

Quite true. But, at least now, Scoop, tru1cy, and Unagi can't single me out for it. They'll have to encompass all of the dice, and not just mine, from now on.

No, you are obviously prone to streaks so are most likely going to be evil for several games in a row now. We shall have to lynch you.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:19 pm

I do want to apologize to my Cylon brethren for dooming us in the end game.

It was a very nice team and I was glad to be a part of it. We had 20 pages of discussion and I had a lot of fun in the Cylon chat room. Thanks to Grund, msteelers, tru1cy, and Scoop (once he saw the wisdom of the Cylon mission) for an excellent game experience. I truly enjoyed it.

My apologies especially to msteelers. I never should have gone after him, because it didn't buy me any credibility with Semaj in the end anyway. I should have just gone full bore after Lagom or RMC at that time and let the chips fall where they may.

Thanks my fellow Cylons. I enjoyed it immensely.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:30 pm

Remus West wrote:No, you are obviously prone to streaks so are most likely going to be evil for several games in a row now. We shall have to lynch you.

That's likely a good idea, even when I'm good. My late game track record is less than stellar.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:32 pm

Oh, and if I ever make it to a final day again, I can't describe how nice it would be to go in without someone who is dead set on voting against me.

It's fun being in the last group, but not so much fun knowing I have a pit bull latched on (correctly or incorrectly) to my backside.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:49 pm

stessier,

Maybe you and I can actually be on the same team in a game around 2013 or so.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:50 pm

theohall,

Who did you scan on the night that bb2112 protected you?

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:58 pm

Lassr,

As I said before, I loved the game. You can automatically sign me up each and every time you run it.

However, I do have a small quibble with the ruleset.

It felt like we were swimming upstream for most of the game with the (seemingly) overwhelming number of provens. It took away some of our strategy for who to kill each night (we could only choose from the provens) and it made it impossible to try to cast doubt on certain players' opinions, just by the very nature of their proven status.

I wonder if you might consider having Helo and/or Doc perform their kill or rez in secret. It would be hard to enforce, but maybe a reveal of the intent to rez or kill in the thread negates the ability. Or maybe Adama and/or Zarek could lose their power by revealing their identity.

You may be well satisfied with the number of provens in the game and I completely understand if you like it the way it is. As I said, it did not detract from my enjoyment at all. But, I just wanted to suggest that the number of provens felt overwhelming at times.

Let me reiterate, this is not a complaint at all. Just something that I wanted to suggest for future evaluation.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:03 pm

Qantaga wrote:Lassr,

As I said before, I loved the game. You can automatically sign me up each and every time you run it.

However, I do have a small quibble with the ruleset.

It felt like we were swimming upstream for most of the game with the (seemingly) overwhelming number of provens. It took away some of our strategy for who to kill each night (we could only choose from the provens) and it made it impossible to try to cast doubt on certain players' opinions, just by the very nature of their proven status.

I wonder if you might consider having Helo and/or Doc perform their kill or rez in secret. It would be hard to enforce, but maybe a reveal of the intent to rez or kill in the thread negates the ability. Or maybe Adama and/or Zarek could lose their power by revealing their identity.

You may be well satisfied with the number of provens in the game and I completely understand if you like it the way it is. As I said, it did not detract from my enjoyment at all. But, I just wanted to suggest that the number of provens felt overwhelming at times.

I think it would be good to have less possible proven outing. I also think less possible provable outing makes for a better spirit in a game of psychology rather than a game of logic puzzles. But I also think that this should countered with less power going to the cylons. Taking away anymore from humanity would have the game cylon cakewalk.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:18 pm

i do think there were a ton of provens out unfortunately; pretty much started with my reveal as Doc. I am sure it was hard, but I think you had cylon sympathizers amongst the remaining humans

-there needs to be a balance there, but to be honest...the cylons could have easily decided to counter any of hte claims, and could have used those; i think a cylon coroner could have potentially have helped here since they would be able to "prove" themselves by knowing someone is dead, and come out so to speak. I mean proner was pretty much accepted, but the only way that happened was Zarek & he working in tandem. That link should probably be broken to prevent that being able to prove the other.

-on the flip side, once i was proven, i found myself being a bit marginalized and really not listened too. Granted there is a balance, but it just felt like i had no impact on the game once i rez'd up remus. So while nice being proven, i found it took a bit of hte pizzazz away from my perspective.

- I think the cylons did a marvelous job given the hand they were dealt, really good in maneuvering around. Despite the odds of the proven out there. I am sure that hamstrung them.

-Also for the record...scoop I aint mad atcha....my disgruntled sentiments i think stemmed more from "sore loser syndrome" or maybe a jilted lover...i mean you decided to side with cylons over us humans. I just needed a few days to get over it. So i hope no offense taken or anything like that. It seriously was a "GRRR...we lost a good facet..and he CHOSE to go there"...so i dont think you cheated, no violations, nothing like that...its just like being chosen last in PE class for dodgeball (not that i'd ever know what that means ya know...i mean seriously)

-Also i am pretty snarky on the OO WW forums, i hope also those are taken into context and not seen as a personal attack.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:21 pm

Qantaga wrote:theohall,

Who did you scan on the night that bb2112 protected you?

LordMortis... yes, I scanned one of the three listed and there would have been another proven human for you all to kill.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:28 pm

Qantaga wrote:Lassr,

As I said before, I loved the game. You can automatically sign me up each and every time you run it.

However, I do have a small quibble with the ruleset.

It felt like we were swimming upstream for most of the game with the (seemingly) overwhelming number of provens. It took away some of our strategy for who to kill each night (we could only choose from the provens) and it made it impossible to try to cast doubt on certain players' opinions, just by the very nature of their proven status.

I wonder if you might consider having Helo and/or Doc perform their kill or rez in secret. It would be hard to enforce, but maybe a reveal of the intent to rez or kill in the thread negates the ability. Or maybe Adama and/or Zarek could lose their power by revealing their identity.

You may be well satisfied with the number of provens in the game and I completely understand if you like it the way it is. As I said, it did not detract from my enjoyment at all. But, I just wanted to suggest that the number of provens felt overwhelming at times.

Let me reiterate, this is not a complaint at all. Just something that I wanted to suggest for future evaluation.

I can't disagree with your assessment. I have so many unused roles that I was trying to fit as many as possible into this game. Next game that won't happen. I really wanted to get Zarek in this game since I've had his role written up for a long while. I meant to put Apollo in instead of Helo. Oh well...

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:37 pm

Other roles I still have not used:

Saul Tigh (good Cylon) replaces Athena. Each day he may investigate a live player and learn their exact role. As soon as scan is submitted an answer will be given as soon as the moderator gets the PM.

Anders (good cylon) If he is scanned by D’Anna he will maintain a connection and will know who she has scanned up to that point and who she scans henceforth. If Anders is lynched the autopsy will show cylon.

Alternative:
–If he is scanned by Athena/Tigh he will maintain a connection and will know who she/he has scanned up to that point and who she/he scans henceforth. If Anders is lynched the autopsy will show cylon. Athena/Tigh will only know they have found a Cylon.

Admiral Cain –Once a day she may lock someone in the brig. She may release them at any time during that day if she chooses. Her last chance to release the prisoner is immediately after the day’s termination before bedtime. Imprisoned players can still talk but they cannot use any special powers or vote. If she chooses not to release the player during the day of imprisonment then they are automatically released at the start of the next day turn. If she imprisons a good player and the winning conditions for the Cylons is at X-1 then Cylons win. (e.g. 3 good team members remaining vs 2 Bad Cylons, imprison good guy then it is 2 vs 2.). If she imprisons the last Cylon during the night phase then there is no night kill and the prisoner is NOT released.

Roslin & Billy-(Masons) Know each other and are in continuous communication. Also either may send one anonymous PM each night to a player of their chose. PM is sent to moderator, Mod forwards it to target player.

Admiral Cain is the one I like the least, and probably will change her role.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:40 pm

Lassr wrote:I can't disagree with your assessment. I have so many unused roles that I was trying to fit as many as possible into this game. Next game that won't happen. I really wanted to get Zarek in this game since I've had his role written up for a long while. I meant to put Apollo in instead of Helo. Oh well...

Don't get me wrong. I love all the roles (your new ones look very cool, too). I'm a believer in the more roles, the better. I'm thinking more of a game mechanism to prevent some of them from being proven, rather than a lessening of the number of specials.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:41 pm

theohall wrote:
Qantaga wrote:theohall,

Who did you scan on the night that bb2112 protected you?
LordMortis... yes, I scanned one of the three listed and there would have been another proven human for you all to kill.

That does make me feel better, especially in our use of the sedation and the shot. A proven LM would have made it very unlikely for us to even see the final day.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:06 pm

Qantaga wrote:Obviously, there were a lot of factors that contributed to the final outcome, but I think there were two incredibly key factors in securing the human victory:

1. bb2112 Protecting theohall

When theo went to n-2 and claimed Athena on the very first day, I was stunned that bb2112 (Starbuck) protected theohall. Any Cylon at n-2 would have claimed Athena. Knowing that Athena would be able to provide, at most, only one more scan, while Starbuck could thwart the Cylons throughout the game, was an amazing leap of faith on bb2112's part to risk protecting theo. There is no way I would have risked protecting theo that night (in Starbuck's shoes).

Congratulations bb2112. Your faith in theo cost us a night kill, and the following use of a sedation and a shot that would have been very powerful for us if we could have saved them for later in the game.

Thanks, I agonized over this decision, but with 2 cylons scanning for me and all the provens stepping out, I didn't expect to live past night 4. BTW, I didn't. Plus, trying to guess who the cylons were going to whack is frakken hard. I thought for sure they were going to whack CR night 3 because he was making too much sense, but you guys went for Newcastle instead. I chose to protect Theo (and maybe I was niave) because I believed him. I don't think a cylon would have come on that strong out of the gate. Same reason I didn't think CG was a cylon either. Plus if I could save him, we would get another scan, have another proven, blah blah blah. The risk seemed worth the reward.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:07 pm

Qantaga wrote:stessier,

Maybe you and I can actually be on the same team in a game around 2013 or so.

I know, right?

Lagom Lite · Post by **Lagom Lite** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:21 pm

Qantaga wrote:2. Lagom's 11 Minutes

The entire game turned a week and a half ago on an 11 minute period. The three provens (Unagi, Chaos, and pr0ner) had all voted on LordMortis. Lagom came in and put LM at n-1 saying he didn't have the inclination for a re-read. Then, 11 minutes later, he popped back in, withdrew LM, and went through his re-read of the first half of the game. (I really wish he wouldn't have stopped at page 40 ). Whatever prompted Lagom to change his mind in that 11 minutes contributed greatly to saving humanity. His re-read caused him to lock in on me. In a normal game, I would have killed him that night and taken my chances. With all the provens in the game, though, there was no way for us to get rid of Lagom. His conviction of my guilt carried him to the last day and ultimately to the human victory.

Congratulations Lagom.

Aww...

Thank you, and thanks bb2112. I have my moments, even a broken clock and all that.

"Lagom's 11 Minutes" has a nice ring to it. Have to remember that.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:27 pm

Lagom Lite wrote:even a broken clock and all that.

Lies! Even if did ever find a nut ever did find a nut, I'd never trust it. They're called nuts for a reason. You can't trust them.

Not to mention that whole spending 24 hours a day rubbing your hands across your face things. That's just creepy.

Lagom Lite · Post by **Lagom Lite** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:34 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:even a broken clock and all that.
Lies! Even if did ever find a nut ever did find a nut, I'd never trust it. They're called nuts for a reason. You can't trust them.

Not to mention that whole spending 24 hours a day rubbing your hands across your face things. That's just creepy.

Can someone translate please? This statement is too esoteric for a poor european guy.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:35 pm

theohall wrote:
Qantaga wrote:theohall,

Who did you scan on the night that bb2112 protected you?
LordMortis... yes, I scanned one of the three listed and there would have been another proven human for you all to kill.

Theo, I tried like hell to keep you alive. I was all pumped up and ready to dive on a grenade night 3 in the hopes to get you into day 3. If we could have gotten 2 more scans out of you, the humans would have won easily. It was bad luck that the cylons had scanned Scoop night 2.

Scoop, you are still a genius. I don't care what anybody else says about you.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:55 pm

The one thing I get from the spoiler forum:

my god, you people really hate me. yow, the Unagi disgust is palpable.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:59 pm

Unagi wrote:The one thing I get from the spoiler forum:

my god, you people really hate me. yow, the Unagi disgust is palpable.

yeah, three people hate you. That's like a majority

Lagom Lite · Post by **Lagom Lite** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:01 pm

Unagi wrote:The one thing I get from the spoiler forum:

my god, you people really hate me. yow, the Unagi disgust is palpable.

Don't take it personally. Last game they hated me.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:08 pm

I think that if the number of provens is an issue then make it so that Zarek can scan for and assassinate Adama. That forces Adama to keep his head down or die. That would remove the "I am Adama" card from the proven deck. The other issue with him is that there was no real manner/benefit to fake him. I really think that the Cylon team made a huge error in not contesting Theohall's claim. I realize it was early but we had no way to be able to know the difference between the true and fake Athena had they done that. At the very least it would have added a level of confusion that is always good for the evil side to create.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:09 pm

Unagi wrote:The one thing I get from the spoiler forum:

my god, you people really hate me. yow, the Unagi disgust is palpable.

I hate that you latched onto my mention of RMC possibly being a partner with Grundbegriff.

You though? How can anyone actually hate a hot Asian chick?

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:18 pm

bb2112 wrote:
theohall wrote:
Qantaga wrote:theohall,

Who did you scan on the night that bb2112 protected you?
LordMortis... yes, I scanned one of the three listed and there would have been another proven human for you all to kill.
Theo, I tried like hell to keep you alive. I was all pumped up and ready to dive on a grenade night 3 in the hopes to get you into day 3. If we could have gotten 2 more scans out of you, the humans would have won easily. It was bad luck that the cylons had scanned Scoop night 2.

Scoop, you are still a genius. I don't care what anybody else says about you.

I was stunned to be alive at all. Had I not been stuck doing actual work things in that 2 hour window before the Cylons sedated me, the LM scan would have been public knowledge.

Very well played even with the monstrous risk protecting me.

And Scoop was a damn genius. I was an idiot for not picking up on his post. Had I caught it, he would have been on our side.

The one thing that floored me was how many missed Scoop's "someone just handed me a gun" claim which was completely unpossible unless the Cylons sedated someone who wasn't Athena. It is amazing how many participants don't bother to read the rules and rely on some of us to point out the rules to them.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:29 pm

theohall wrote:The one thing that floored me was how many missed Scoop's "someone just handed me a gun" claim which was completely unpossible unless the Cylons sedated someone who wasn't Athena. It is amazing how many participants don't bother to read the rules and rely on some of us to point out the rules to them.

Setting aside the unlikelihood of Galen having been scanned by Athena and then passing the gun to an unknown how is it impossible for Scoop to have been passed the gun? All that it would have required was for Galen to have been your first (Unagi) or second scan. You did not need to participate in the exchange of the gun and there was not a time limit as to when Galen needed to pass the gun off. You being sedated had absolutely nothing to do with Galen passing the gun or not as far as I can tell from the rules.

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:47 pm

Unagi wrote:The one thing I get from the spoiler forum:

my god, you people really hate me. yow, the Unagi disgust is palpable.

i'm pretty sure I beat you on that one.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:47 pm

theohall wrote: And Scoop was a damn genius. I was an idiot for not picking up on his post. Had I caught it, he would have been on our side.

The one thing that floored me was how many missed Scoop's "someone just handed me a gun" claim which was completely unpossible unless the Cylons sedated someone who wasn't Athena. It is amazing how many participants don't bother to read the rules and rely on some of us to point out the rules to them.

What floored me was how many people (including me) missed his "Athena is hotter than Boomer" and I wish "Xena would visit me in the night" comments.

After reading all the threads, I think Msteelers and Grund were the only 2 that picked up on it. If there was an award for best post, I think that one would win hands down.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:47 pm

Yeah, I don't get that either.

I knew he wasn't 'passed the gun' because it would have been moronic for someone to do, but technically speaking it wasn't impossible from a "do you even read the rules?" perspective.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:53 pm

Unagi wrote:The one thing I get from the spoiler forum:

my god, you people really hate me. yow, the Unagi disgust is palpable.

Not at all. I think it was just the frustration of the game end being so close with such a tight margin for victory that was causing all the Unagi comments. Everyone was really bought into the drama. Semaj and LL took their fare share of hits too, at least until LL used some brilliant deductive reasoning in his reread. Don't sweat it. Just carry your grudge into the next game and get even.