The Art of the Donald Trumpocalypse

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:03 am

So Drumpf is actually working for the Clintons? That's some brilliant paranoid fantasy. Now all he need do is go independent to complete the coup.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:04 am

msduncan wrote: Some of his supporters (poached from Bush Sr.) rejoin support for him. Enough to keep Bush Sr. from winning. A significant percentage abandon him. Enough to keep him from winning.

This is just flat out false. Exit polls show that Perot drew support from both Clinton and Bush in equal rates. Analysis afterwards suggest that while Perot's presence may have lost Bush a few states, they wouldn't have been enough for Bush to win, and his presence also helped him win in a few states (eg, Florida).

This time we get the bitch instead of the guy that was actually qualified.

Well, I suppose, arguably, Perot was qualified (certainly compared to Trump), but I didn't realize Trump was a bitch. I was assured he had no problem down there.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:16 am

Defiant wrote: Well, I suppose, arguably, Perot was qualified (certainly compared to Trump), but I didn't realize Trump was a bitch. I was assured he had no problem down there.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:38 am

Jag wrote:Trump names who he consults for foreign policy advice:

“I’m speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain, and I’ve said a lot of things," Trump said during an early-morning phone interview on MSNBC. "I know what I'm doing, and I listen to a lot of people, I talk to a lot of people, and at the appropriate time I'll tell you who the people are," he continued. “But I speak to a lot of people, but my primary consultant is myself, and I have a good instinct for this stuff.”

He did mention Richard N. Haass at one point as someone he respects when it comes to foreign policy. Haass was on NPR this morning and when asked about Trump, he took the high road more than once by stating what they talked about was confidential. Then he made it a point to mention he advises ALL the candidates on both sides of the aisle. When asked what he thought of Trump's proposed foreign policies though, he went off for a few minutes about how wrong they were. It was actually pretty funny, considering that Trump was stating this guy was someone whose opinion he respected.

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:00 am

tru1cy wrote:
msduncan wrote:
tru1cy wrote:So when does The Donald start drifting to the center?

Not sure. He is running a completely unconventional campaign that has turned everything I thought I knew about politics on it's head. Then again, he's just the manifestation of Republican core voter anger at the Boehner/Rubio/McCain/Romney/Ryan establishment -- so if he keeps up the anger politics he will continue to do well. I think if he's serious about November he's going to have to pivot soon.

Once he pivots, if he pivots, will he be seen by the grassroots as a sellout? While his message now sells with his base that same message alienates everyone else he will need to win the general. Angry white people isn't enough anymore to win the general election

I think he's proven that he can say pretty much anything and still be ok with the people who are supporting him. I have little doubt he can pivot without too much trouble as long as he pivots and doesn't do an about face.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:29 am

It's easy to dismiss Trump supporters as a bunch of racist know nothing yahoos, but that would be ignoring the legitimate issues that are driving his popularity. I think this writer captures what is really happening here:

http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/a ... ps-america

Donald Trump received 70 percent of the primary vote in Buchanan County, Virginia, and 60 percent in Martin County, Kentucky. He is strongest in Appalachia because the biggest indicator of support for Trump, according to a survey by the RAND Corporation, is agreeing with the statement, "people like me don't have any say."

I live in Trump's America, where working-class whites are dying from despair. They're dying from alcoholism, drug addiction and suicide, trying to take away the pain of a half century's economic and cultural decline. In the foothills of Appalachia, Wilkes County, North Carolina, is second in the nation in income lost this century, where the number of manufacturing jobs decreased from 8,548 in the year 2000 to about 4,000 today, according to Stateline.

On the losing side of automation, globalization and the "rural brain drain" our community was powerless to stop furniture factories from closing down or Wal-Mart from coming in. And after decades of decline folks were too beaten down and disorganized to fight back when pharmaceutical companies flooded the area with OxyContin. As a result, Wilkes had the third highest overdose rate in America in 2007 and busted 50 meth labs in 2013. [Overdose rates dropped 69 percent by 2011 after North Carolina responded to the crisis.]

Now, I walk into the courtroom every week and see the faces of childhood friends in a town where 23 percent of the population lives in poverty and 25 percent never finished high school.

So if there are winners and losers in America, I know the losers. They lost jobs to China and Vietnam. And they're dying younger, caught in an endless cycle of jail, drug charges and applying for disability to pay the child support bill.

They lost their influence, their dignity and their shot at the American Dream, and now they're angry. They're angry at Washington and Wall Street, at big corporations and big government. And they're voting now for Donald Trump.

They don't care because no one cares for them:

His supporters realize he's a joke. They do not care. They know he's authoritarian, nationalist, almost un-American, and they love him anyway, because he disrupts a broken political process and beats establishment candidates who've long ignored their interests.

When you're earning $32,000 a year and haven't had a decent vacation in over a decade, it doesn't matter who Trump appoints to the U.N., or if he poisons America's standing in the world, you just want to win again, whoever the victim, whatever the price.

The Republicans and Democrats have ignored their plight:

According to the Republican Party, the biggest threat to rural America was Islamic terrorism. According to the Democratic Party it was gun violence. In reality it was prescription drug abuse and neither party noticed until it was too late.

It's time for both parties to pay attention to their needs and problems - if they really care at all.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:38 am

Way to rain on the parade with reality.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:25 pm

So the idea is to elect a guy who can do literally nothing to solve these problems, wrecks the economy, ruins our standing in the world, attacks minorities, normalizes racism, and throws a pipe bomb into the real and legitimate work of government, all because it symbolically embarrasses the system? Sounds like a great plan.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:25 pm

msduncan wrote:
I think he's proven that he can say pretty much anything and still be ok with the people who are supporting him. I have little doubt he can pivot without too much trouble as long as he pivots and doesn't do an about face.

I agree, in that he has proven that he can say pretty much anything about his perceived competitors and people will support him. I'm not convinced those same people will maintain their support if he starts talking about how Mexicans aren't so bad after all (hell, he let's some of them use his washroom) or how banning all Muslims (temporarily!) was not what he said.

There's a big difference between being a complete asshat towards people that your supporters already hate (don't like? Fear?) and then betraying your supporters by being nice to the people that your supporters already hate (don't like? Fear?).

We'll see. He's done well enough that I'm concerned.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:32 pm

Rip wrote:Way to rain on the parade with reality.

I fail to see how that changes anything at all. Or that anyone here (in general, I can't speak for everyone, every comment) has disagreed that Trump's success is based entirely on disenfranchised Republicans.

This "reality" that you think is raining on the parade is the same reality that we've all been dealing with since it became clear Trump wasn't going away. I fully credit you with recognizing it first, and commenting on it long before most of us realized you were right (there's always a first

)

That doesn't change the fact that the majority of Trump supporters are know-nothing yahoos. The critical mass of his supporters are low education physical labourers. Until they decided Trump should be their champion, I had no disrespect for this demographic. It's hard to blame Trump for doing what works. I blame the people that it is working on.

What's even more bizarre is that the GOP has never even claimed to support or care about lower education, lower income people. No one cares about them? No shit. Every time the Reps talk about tax cuts for the rich, or flat tax, or whatever, they are directly stepping on the poor and less educated. Suddenly they are surprised that their party doesn't care about them?

Ho. Lee. Fuck.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:36 pm

Holman wrote:So the idea is to elect a guy who can do literally nothing to solve these problems, wrecks the economy, ruins our standing in the world, attacks minorities, normalizes racism, and throws a pipe bomb into the real and legitimate work of government, all because it symbolically embarrasses the system? Sounds like a great plan.

Well said.

I get that people are pissed off. I get that they're fed up with "big government". I get that they want a change. I get that they feel no one is looking out for them.

What I cannot even begin to fathom is how or why they think an xenophobic, egocentric, blowhard like Trump will change a single one of these problems.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:38 pm

The author's take-away is this:

Trump won't win the presidency, of course. If he's nominated conservatives will walk out of the Cleveland convention in July and run a third ticket candidate, and there are not enough disaffected white males in Pennsylvania or Ohio to make up for the independent women who would vote for Hillary Clinton in November. But the two parties can no longer afford to ignore Trump's America.

To win again in the Deep South and Appalachia, the Democratic Party must recall the days of Roosevelt's New Deal and Kennedy's New Frontier by putting people to work rebuilding America, and making college free after two years of national service.

Trump's appeal as a strongman reveals the desire in Middle America for public action. His supporters want healthcare, like Social Security and are frustrated by the gridlock on Capitol Hill, so they must return to the days of Eisenhower, standing for conservative principles but also compromising when possible.

In other words, Democrats need to act more like idealistic Democrats while Republicans also need to act more like idealistic Democrats. I can agree with that.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:39 pm

Holman wrote:So the idea is to elect a guy who can do literally nothing to solve these problems, wrecks the economy, ruins our standing in the world, attacks minorities, normalizes racism, and throws a pipe bomb into the real and legitimate work of government, all because it symbolically embarrasses the system? Sounds like a great plan.

I think it's not nearly as deep as you're making it. In their mind, Trump is simply not part of the system that has been keeping them down for the last year, decade, lifetime, etc... he's popular simply because he's a Washington D.C. outsider. The fact that he's also tapping into the xenophobic / racist elements is just an added bonus. I would be willing to bet cash money if you took Cruz, Clinton, McConnell or any other "big name" politician and dropped them into a backyard BBQ situation with the group of people mentioned in Grifman's article, they would be completely unable to relate, communicate or fit in. On the other hand, despite Trump's orange skin and business suit, my gut feeling is that he'd be working the crowd like a carnival barker in no time. As noted a few months ago, Palin is cut from the same cloth in that respect and I think it's also why she's been able to maintain attention (and her looks help). Somehow Trump possesses something that a large number of people can relate to and the fact that he is unfettered by D.C. politics only increases the draw. That's why I think Hillary (or any opponent) is going to have a problem as everyone has been hammering the idea that he's not politician and that he has no experience or knowledge. His supporters know that - and that's why they like him.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:44 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Rip wrote:Way to rain on the parade with reality.
I fail to see how that changes anything at all. Or that anyone here (in general, I can't speak for everyone, every comment) has disagreed that Trump's success is based entirely on disenfranchised Republicans.

This "reality" that you think is raining on the parade is the same reality that we've all been dealing with since it became clear Trump wasn't going away. I fully credit you with recognizing it first, and commenting on it long before most of us realized you were right (there's always a first )

That doesn't change the fact that the majority of Trump supporters are know-nothing yahoos. The critical mass of his supporters are low education physical labourers. Until they decided Trump should be their champion, I had no disrespect for this demographic. It's hard to blame Trump for doing what works. I blame the people that it is working on.

What's even more bizarre is that the GOP has never even claimed to support or care about lower education, lower income people. No one cares about them? No shit. Every time the Reps talk about tax cuts for the rich, or flat tax, or whatever, they are directly stepping on the poor and less educated. Suddenly they are surprised that their party doesn't care about them?

Ho. Lee. Fuck.

No nothing yahoo votes count the same as any other vote and it isn't just disenfranchised Republicans. The attitude you take toward them is exactly what they feel they have been getting for years. So when you try to sway them with logic don't be surprised when you get the finger.

He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:48 pm

Holman wrote:The author's take-away is this:

Trump won't win the presidency, of course. If he's nominated conservatives will walk out of the Cleveland convention in July and run a third ticket candidate, and there are not enough disaffected white males in Pennsylvania or Ohio to make up for the independent women who would vote for Hillary Clinton in November. But the two parties can no longer afford to ignore Trump's America.

To win again in the Deep South and Appalachia, the Democratic Party must recall the days of Roosevelt's New Deal and Kennedy's New Frontier by putting people to work rebuilding America, and making college free after two years of national service.

Trump's appeal as a strongman reveals the desire in Middle America for public action. His supporters want healthcare, like Social Security and are frustrated by the gridlock on Capitol Hill, so they must return to the days of Eisenhower, standing for conservative principles but also compromising when possible.
In other words, Democrats need to act more like idealistic Democrats while Republicans also need to act more like idealistic Democrats. I can agree with that.

Or you know compromise on legislation and get the people's work done instead of pandering to your extreme flanks. Gerrymandering has fuckin ruined this country

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:51 pm

Rip wrote:
No nothing yahoo votes count the same as any other vote and it isn't just disenfranchised Republicans. The attitude you take toward them is exactly what they feel they have been getting for years. So when you try to sway them with logic don't be surprised when you get the finger.

Ironically, I never had this attitude toward them until they decided to do something about my attitude toward them.

If they don't want to be treated as dumb fucks, they shouldn't support a dumb fuck.

So you're suggesting that they feel they are looked down upon, and then do something so incredibly stupid that people who never looked down upon them start looking down upon them. They think this will help?

Burn the GOP to the ground, I don't give a shit, but don't take the whole country with it. How short sighted and self interested are these trump supporters?

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:03 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Rip wrote:
No nothing yahoo votes count the same as any other vote and it isn't just disenfranchised Republicans. The attitude you take toward them is exactly what they feel they have been getting for years. So when you try to sway them with logic don't be surprised when you get the finger.
Ironically, I never had this attitude toward them until they decided to do something about my attitude toward them.

If they don't want to be treated as dumb fucks, they shouldn't support a dumb fuck.

So you're suggesting that they feel they are looked down upon, and then do something so incredibly stupid that people who never looked down upon them start looking down upon them. They think this will help?

Burn the GOP to the ground, I don't give a shit, but don't take the whole country with it. How short sighted and self interested are these trump supporters?

Perhaps they don't see it as burning it down but as putting out the fire that is burning it down?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... rong_track

The battle is over those that think:

we should keep going (Clinton)(Kasich)
take a left (Sanders)
take a right (Cruz)
reverse course (Trump)

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:03 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Rip wrote:Way to rain on the parade with reality.
I fail to see how that changes anything at all. Or that anyone here (in general, I can't speak for everyone, every comment) has disagreed that Trump's success is based entirely on disenfranchised Republicans.

There apparently are disenfranchised Democrats voting for him also in open primaries. That said, no one here has actually recognized before what is driving this vote (I could have missed this in 72 pages). Few have commented on what problems these people face, much less proposed any solutions for them.

This "reality" that you think is raining on the parade is the same reality that we've all been dealing with since it became clear Trump wasn't going away. I fully credit you with recognizing it first, and commenting on it long before most of us realized you were right (there's always a first )

Who has commented on their problems? And that no party is really addressing them?

That doesn't change the fact that the majority of Trump supporters are know-nothing yahoos. The critical mass of his supporters are low education physical labourers. Until they decided Trump should be their champion, I had no disrespect for this demographic. It's hard to blame Trump for doing what works. I blame the people that it is working on.

That sort of condescending attitude is part of the problem. Just like all the talk of "fly over" country, as if people don't live there and don't matter.

What's even more bizarre is that the GOP has never even claimed to support or care about lower education, lower income people. No one cares about them? No shit. Every time the Reps talk about tax cuts for the rich, or flat tax, or whatever, they are directly stepping on the poor and less educated. Suddenly they are surprised that their party doesn't care about them?

Who said that they are surprised? They're not surprised, they've been seeing it for awhile, now they are speaking out - yes in a stupidly horrible way, but they are speaking out.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:06 pm

Holman wrote:So the idea is to elect a guy who can do literally nothing to solve these problems, wrecks the economy, ruins our standing in the world, attacks minorities, normalizes racism, and throws a pipe bomb into the real and legitimate work of government, all because it symbolically embarrasses the system? Sounds like a great plan.

They know the Dems and Repubs aren't doing anything, why not throw the dice. If he's opposed by both parties, which have ignored them, why not? Can it really get any worse for them?

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:10 pm

Rip wrote:No nothing yahoo votes count the same as any other vote and it isn't just disenfranchised Republicans. The attitude you take toward them is exactly what they feel they have been getting for years. So when you try to sway them with logic don't be surprised when you get the finger.

He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.

Yep, Goo's attitude is exactly what they are railing against. All he's done is just confirmed their belief by his condescending attitude. Just write these people off, they're the ignorant working class.

And I am in shock that I am in agreement with Rip!

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:15 pm

GreenGoo wrote:So you're suggesting that they feel they are looked down upon, and then do something so incredibly stupid that people who never looked down upon them start looking down upon them. They think this will help?

Sure, you (and others) maybe haven't looked down on them, but they certainly have been ignored while their world has been collapsing. Maybe this will get them and their problems attention. And beside, surely you realized that people do stupid things when they feel their backs are to the wall. Just like the Baltimore and Ferguson riots. That got people's attention.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:20 pm

Grifman wrote:
Holman wrote:So the idea is to elect a guy who can do literally nothing to solve these problems, wrecks the economy, ruins our standing in the world, attacks minorities, normalizes racism, and throws a pipe bomb into the real and legitimate work of government, all because it symbolically embarrasses the system? Sounds like a great plan.
They know the Dems and Repubs aren't doing anything, why not throw the dice. If he's opposed by both parties, which have ignored them, why not? Can it really get any worse for them?

Bingo.

The attitude is all these people have screwed us and you are pointing it out and saying you will fix it. They were somewhat hesitant and then all the people that screwed them started calling him the devil without realizing that doing so just made those people believe in him. Enemy of my enemy and all that.

Over time many of these people had stopped voting if they ever did, now they are coming back in droves precisely because they have found someone the people they dislike absolutely hate. Ot two people. If Cruz and Trump could work together it would make a very formidable ticket.

D.A.Lewis · Post by **D.A.Lewis** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:21 pm

Rip wrote: He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.

The fuel driving the Trump truck is multi hatred. Yep, there is some hatred for the elites, but the main component of this fuel is racial animosity. It this was truly about hatred for the elites why don't they hate multi-millionaire Donald Trump. You could hardly get more elitist/establishment than him.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:24 pm

D.A.Lewis wrote:
Rip wrote: He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.

The fuel driving the Trump truck is multi hatred. Yep, there is some hatred for the elites, but the main component of this fuel is racial animosity. It this was truly about hatred for the elites why don't they hate multi-millionaire Donald Trump. You could hardly get more elitist/establishment than him.

They don't see him as Establishment, just like no one sees Cruz that way. Obviously the elitist/establishment doesn't see them as brothers, they are the ones leading the attacks.

Interestingly I think shutting out both Cruz and Trump for the nomination could lead them to unite which would in fact destroy the party.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:30 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Every time the Reps talk about tax cuts for the rich, or flat tax, or whatever, they are directly stepping on the poor and less educated. Suddenly they are surprised that their party doesn't care about them?

If Trump's candidacy finally drives a stake through the cold shriveled heart of supply-side economics, it will have achieved a valuable service that real-world experience failed to do, and the R Party will be healthier for it.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:32 pm

Rip wrote:Perhaps they don't see it as burning it down but as putting out the fire that is burning it down?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... rong_track

The battle is over those that think:

we should keep going (Clinton)(Kasich)
take a left (Sanders)
take a right (Cruz)
reverse course (Trump)

As someone who has been fascinated by Trump from the beginning but only started to get scared (more so of his following than of him, really) in January, what the hell does that even mean?

Reverse course to what?

D.A.Lewis wrote:The fuel driving the Trump truck is multi hatred. Yep, there is some hatred for the elites, but the main component of this fuel is racial animosity. It this was truly about hatred for the elites why don't they hate multi-millionaire Donald Trump. You could hardly get more elitist/establishment than him.

I understand that the elite hatred fueling the fires but I don't get even a little how the logical conclusion for elite hatred is to vote for Trump. I much more understand the racial hatred and using Trump as the focal point for it, and then I just don't understand its success.

Rip wrote:They don't see him as Establishment, just like no one sees Cruz that way. Obviously the elitist/establishment doesn't see them as brothers, they are the ones leading the attacks.

So Trump's not part of the Establishment. How does that divorce him from the elitist? What in his history makes people think he is interested in anything but Donald Trump, and not even Donald Trump's legacy.

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:35 pm

D.A.Lewis wrote:
Rip wrote: He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.

The fuel driving the Trump truck is multi hatred. Yep, there is some hatred for the elites, but the main component of this fuel is racial animosity.<snip>

That's pretty much bullshit, and it's the same cheap ass tactic that seems to have come into fad these days to shout down opposing opinions on pet political positions.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:36 pm

LordMortis wrote:Reverse course to what?

To a time when America was great.

See how easy that is? It doesn't even mean anything and people just lap it right the hell up.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:37 pm

Kraken wrote:
GreenGoo wrote: Every time the Reps talk about tax cuts for the rich, or flat tax, or whatever, they are directly stepping on the poor and less educated. Suddenly they are surprised that their party doesn't care about them?
If Trump's candidacy finally drives a stake through the cold shriveled heart of supply-side economics, it will have achieved a valuable service that real-world experience failed to do, and the R Party will be healthier for it.

The only problem is that Trump has proposed the same type of massive regressive tax cuts as his GOP opponents have. Of course, he seems entirely unmoored from his past positions and past statements, but that is at least nominally his current position.

D.A.Lewis · Post by **D.A.Lewis** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:38 pm

Rip wrote:
D.A.Lewis wrote:
Rip wrote: He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.

The fuel driving the Trump truck is multi hatred. Yep, there is some hatred for the elites, but the main component of this fuel is racial animosity. It this was truly about hatred for the elites why don't they hate multi-millionaire Donald Trump. You could hardly get more elitist/establishment than him.
They don't see him as Establishment, just like no one sees Cruz that way. Obviously the elitist/establishment doesn't see them as brothers, they are the ones leading the attacks.

Interestingly I think shutting out both Cruz and Trump for the nomination could lead them to unite which would in fact destroy the party.

I know the republican establishment does not see Donald as the establishment, but Donald's real street cred is that he is a big time establishment guy. He's a real estate mogul, can you get any more establishment?

I have no idea how the contested convention will work itself out . But if Donald is the leading vote getter, and state winner he holds all the cards. As far as the party being destroyed, that is happening right now as we speak.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:39 pm

His entire slogan is based in it.

Make America Great Again

It directly implies returning to somewhere we have already been.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:43 pm

Where sexism, racism, and the threat of nuclear annihilation are part and parcel of everyday life?

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:46 pm

Rip wrote:His entire slogan is based in it.

Make America Great Again

It directly implies returning to somewhere we have already been.

So does the whole notion of being conservative, Conserving America. Saving what America was. It's a different way of saying the exact same nothing.

So what are returning to? Higher taxes on the wealthy? Industrialism? Racism? Hiding our poverty?

Ideally it would be returning America to a nation that built the best infrastructure in the world and it did it on the metaphorical backs of the wealthy (and sadly, the literal backs of the poor, so they could make a buck)

I've never heard him talk about infrastructure or how it's going to get paid for.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:49 pm

Grifman wrote:
Rip wrote:No nothing yahoo votes count the same as any other vote and it isn't just disenfranchised Republicans. The attitude you take toward them is exactly what they feel they have been getting for years. So when you try to sway them with logic don't be surprised when you get the finger.

He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.
Yep, Goo's attitude is exactly what they are railing against. All he's done is just confirmed their belief by his condescending attitude. Just write these people off, they're the ignorant working class.

And I am in shock that I am in agreement with Rip!

How can I help it? They have made Trump a potential candidate for for PotUS. Trump's election is being called a global risk, and I totally believe it.

And to be clear, my attitude is because of their support for Trump. They are literally causing people to view them in the light that they believe people view them. This isn't a chicken or egg scenario. This is me having no opinion of a socioeconomic class at all (or if any, a slightly positive one) and them deciding that they aren't treated with enough respect, so they do something incredibly stupid that loses them any respect they might have had before.

Don't go putting this on me. You can't burn down a building and when someone calls you an arsonist, try to use that to justify burning down the building.

D.A.Lewis · Post by **D.A.Lewis** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:50 pm

msduncan wrote:
D.A.Lewis wrote:
Rip wrote: He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.

The fuel driving the Trump truck is multi hatred. Yep, there is some hatred for the elites, but the main component of this fuel is racial animosity.<snip>
That's pretty much bullshit, and it's the same cheap ass tactic that seems to have come into fad these days to shout down opposing opinions on pet political positions.

No it's not. Trumps race baiting, isn't imaginary it was seen and recorded. It's something you can see for yourself. You don't even have to be a member of a specific party to spot it because it has been seen by all sides. Calling it a "cheap ass tactic is in itself a tactic to reduce calling out a moral flaw into some kind of political strategy.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:51 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:Where sexism, racism, and the threat of nuclear annihilation are part and parcel of everyday life?

Methinks those are still with us today. Gamersgate, Ferguson, and the Russians still have nukes. Game, set and match!

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:53 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Rip wrote:His entire slogan is based in it.

Make America Great Again

It directly implies returning to somewhere we have already been.
So does the whole notion of being conservative, Conserving America. Saving what America was. It's a different way of saying the exact same nothing.

So what are returning to? Higher taxes on the wealthy? Industrialism? Racism? Hiding our poverty?

Ideally it would be returning America to a nation that built the best infrastructure in the world and it did it on the metaphorical backs of the wealthy (and sadly, the literal backs of the poor, so they could make a buck)

I've never heard him talk about infrastructure or how it's going to get paid for.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:56 pm

Grifman wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:Where sexism, racism, and the threat of nuclear annihilation are part and parcel of everyday life?
Methinks those are still with us today. Gamersgate, Ferguson, and the Russians still have nukes. Game, set and match!

Sexism and racism will always be things, but they are not quite as entrenched in society as a given as they once were. And as for the nukes, I prefer a good flame war.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:58 pm

msduncan wrote: That's pretty much bullshit, and it's the same cheap ass tactic that seems to have come into fad these days to shout down opposing opinions on pet political positions.

Every article, including those from right leaning groups, has commented on and backed with cites and evidence that this is true. Coldcocking a guy being escorted out? Shoving a woman around? Calls for the return of Auschwitz? Go back to Africa?

Trump literally has NO POLITICAL opinion to oppose. Build a wall between Mexico and the US? How is that anything but rhetoric? How do you engage Trump on the issues when Trump himself avoids commenting on anything besides being a winner and everyone else being losers? What is it that you would have them do, MSD?

Grif, it's not our job to find solutions for the disenfranchised Reps. I don't even know specifically what their issue is. I'm not one and don't claim to empathize with them. "No one cares about us" is not a coherent position. I know Trump sure as hell ain't a solution for whatever it is though.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:59 pm

D.A.Lewis wrote:No it's not. Trumps race baiting, isn't imaginary it was seen and recorded. It's something you can see for yourself. You don't even have to be a member of a specific party to spot it because it has been seen by all sides. Calling it a "cheap ass tactic is in itself a tactic to reduce calling out a moral flaw into some kind of political strategy.

Is it there, yes? But your point was the main reason people are voting for Trump is racial hatred. For which you have yet to provide any evidence. That's BS until you do.