Why isn't anyone here talking about virtual reality?

[TiLT]

Insomniac just released Edge of Nowhere. It looks really promising, and I really want to buy it blindly since AAA level games aren't going to come out very frequently for VR for a while (or at least, as close to AAA as we'll see in VR for the timing being), but it's supposed to be a pretty scary game. I haven't tried any horror games in VR yet and I'm expecting I'll be a big wuss.

I'm not sure I grok the idea of a third person VR game...

Third person works extremely well for VR, maybe even better than first person because the latter is so limited by what you can't do in VR yet. I see lots of people make the assumption that first person is the only thing that works for VR, especially if they haven't tried a real VR device before, but it just isn't the case at all.

[Max Peck]

Grok you.

Back at ya, buddy.

[Max Peck]

Insomniac just released Edge of Nowhere. It looks really promising, and I really want to buy it blindly since AAA level games aren't going to come out very frequently for VR for a while (or at least, as close to AAA as we'll see in VR for the timing being), but it's supposed to be a pretty scary game. I haven't tried any horror games in VR yet and I'm expecting I'll be a big wuss.

I'm not sure I grok the idea of a third person VR game...

Third person works extremely well for VR, maybe even better than first person because the latter is so limited by what you can't do in VR yet. I see lots of people make the assumption that first person is the only thing that works for VR, especially if they haven't tried a real VR device before, but it just isn't the case at all.

Fair enough. I haven't jumped into VR yet, at all, and my only real interest has been in cockpit games (Elite: Dangerous and the like). In what way does this particular game seem to be be making good use of VR?

[TiLT]

Insomniac just released Edge of Nowhere. It looks really promising, and I really want to buy it blindly since AAA level games aren't going to come out very frequently for VR for a while (or at least, as close to AAA as we'll see in VR for the timing being), but it's supposed to be a pretty scary game. I haven't tried any horror games in VR yet and I'm expecting I'll be a big wuss.

I'm not sure I grok the idea of a third person VR game...

Third person works extremely well for VR, maybe even better than first person because the latter is so limited by what you can't do in VR yet. I see lots of people make the assumption that first person is the only thing that works for VR, especially if they haven't tried a real VR device before, but it just isn't the case at all.

Fair enough. I haven't jumped into VR yet, at all, and my only real interest has been in cockpit games (Elite: Dangerous and the like). In what way does this particular game seem to be be making good use of VR?

I haven't played Edge of Nowhere yet, so I couldn't tell you. I've played Lucky's Tale and Chronos though, two third-person games that handle the camera differently from each other, and both work really, really well.

[wonderpug]

Insomniac just released Edge of Nowhere. It looks really promising, and I really want to buy it blindly since AAA level games aren't going to come out very frequently for VR for a while (or at least, as close to AAA as we'll see in VR for the timing being), but it's supposed to be a pretty scary game. I haven't tried any horror games in VR yet and I'm expecting I'll be a big wuss.

I'm not sure I grok the idea of a third person VR game...

I totally agree that going into VR it doesn't sound like 3rd person gaming would be appealing, but it works really really well. Lucky's Tale is like taking a Super Mario 3d game and then stepping inside. BlazeRush is liking sitting over a slot car racing track. Chronos is like some other analogy that conveys how immersive it is in VR.

[Max Peck]

My initial comment was badly phrased. I didn't intend to dispute that VR can work well with a third-person camera view in general. I just meant that I don't get the VR hook for this particular game, based on the trailer. TiLT mentioned that it looked promising as a AAA VR game, so I thought he had some insight into how they were leveraging VR to enhance actual gameplay (as opposed to using VR as a gimmick, i.e. just a 3rd person action game with 3D visuals). Again, it's an issue of me grokking VR (or not grokking it, more properly), not what VR can or cannot actually do well.

[Alefroth]

I've only read through about half the thread, but there seems to be some concern about getting betamax'd. Is this a competing format situation, or will it be more like choosing between AMD or Nvidia?

[TiLT]

I've only read through about half the thread, but there seems to be some concern about getting betamax'd. Is this a competing format situation, or will it be more like choosing between AMD or Nvidia?

It's more like choosing between PS4 and Xbox One. Most games are available for both, but some are only available on one because of exclusivity or unique control methods. At the moment, Oculus has the best quality game selection by far.

[Punisher]

Anyone with an HTC Vive notice any conflicts with remote controls? I have mine in my living room and when the base stations are on, my Tivo remotes go all wonky and only work randomly. 3 different remotes that work in the other rooms fine. If I unplug the base stations, they go back to normal.

[wonderpug]

Anyone with an HTC Vive notice any conflicts with remote controls? I have mine in my living room and when the base stations are on, my Tivo remotes go all wonky and only work randomly. 3 different remotes that work in the other rooms fine. If I unplug the base stations, they go back to normal.

I've heard of this happening in both directions. The base station IR can interfere with remotes, and remotes can interfere with VR tracking. The IR from a Kinect can also mess things up.

[Max Peck]

I see that Valve has released a free Early Access VR content creation toolkit, Destinations Workshop Tools. It appears to support both Vive and Rift.

[wonderpug]

Star Trek in VR anyone?

Star Trek Bridge Crew VR game accidentally leaked

[msduncan]

I would love to try VR, but it's expensive.

[JetFred]

I'm going to get the seated itch before full-room.

[Rumpy]

Star Trek in VR anyone?

Star Trek Bridge Crew VR game accidentally leaked

This would probably be the game that gets me into VR. Sounds a bit like Artemis and Pulsar: The Lost Colony, taking the best of each. Sounds great!

[tgb]

I don't know why I didn't post this here instead of the Mobile Gaming thread, but I will now:

tlr and I upgraded our phones to Galaxy S7's Friday, and as part of a promotion Verizon is sending each of us a voucher good for a Samsung Gear VR. Until yesterday the only personal VR devices I knew about was the Rift and the Vive, both out of reach economically and computing-power wise at the moment.

It's going to take a few weeks for them to arrive once I actually place the order, but in the meantime are there any killer games I should be on the lookout for?

[Max Peck]

Star Trek in VR anyone?

Star Trek Bridge Crew VR game accidentally leaked

This would probably be the game that gets me into VR. Sounds a bit like Artemis and Pulsar: The Lost Colony, taking the best of each. Sounds great!

I like how Blues News described this:

They point to a story on ABC News about the game, which will simulate being on the bridge crew of a starship, with VR allowing the illusion of operating a computer while you are actually merely operating a computer.

[Buatha]

Oh, hell yeah!

Fallout 4 VR for the HTC Vive next year

[Toe]

I've only read through about half the thread, but there seems to be some concern about getting betamax'd. Is this a competing format situation, or will it be more like choosing between AMD or Nvidia?

It's more like choosing between PS4 and Xbox One. Most games are available for both, but some are only available on one because of exclusivity or unique control methods. At the moment, Oculus has the best quality game selection by far.

Oculus is pulling some pretty sleazy moves in an attempt to grab more VR market share. A Vive demo, Giant Cop, has been getting some good buzz recently. You could even pre-order it for your Vive via a humble bundle. Was recently announced that it is now going to be released as a oculus exclusive. Pretty sad how the devs of the game did an AMA on reddit (We are game developers for the HTC Vive – Ask Us Anything) exclaiming how "success of our games relies on VR becoming a mass market consumer platform.". Guess that principle got tossed out the window to make room for their facebook cash.

[Buatha]

People are not happy.

Yeah, I'd get it if this was an established market and they wanted some exclusives, but seriously, this is a dick move at this point in the game.

Croteam was also offered shit ton of money by FB.

[Daehawk]

I watched that Star Trek video. Was cool seeing them enthused about it especially LeVar.

[Rumpy]

Oh, hell yeah!

Fallout 4 VR for the HTC Vive next year

I'm wondering how they're doing this? I thought VR was more or less constrained to room experiences at the moment and that things like walking would induce dizziness.

[wonderpug]

I'm also very curious. The vorpX conversion for Fallout works fine for some people, but many/most reports I've seen make it sound very nausea inducing.

[Rumpy]

Yeah, which is why I've read that most if not all VR games use a 3rd person camera looking from above. I suppose 3rd person view could work with this, but even then I'm not sure. Could depend on the FOV maybe? But in Bethesda's games, either Fallout or Elder Scrolls, I've never heard of anyone playing them in 3rd person most of the time. First and foremost, they've been built as first-person experiences.


Anyway, I'm interested in hearing how they solve that issue, as it's a pretty important one in general for VR, that could help expand the potential if similar techniques are applied to future games.

[Toe]

It appears that in both the recent cases of Giant Cop and Serious Sam, the devs were offered money from oculus for timed exclusivity, which is not as evil as perma exclusivity imo.

[Buatha]

Oh, hell yeah!

Fallout 4 VR for the HTC Vive next year

I'm wondering how they're doing this? I thought VR was more or less constrained to room experiences at the moment and that things like walking would induce dizziness.

With room scale (which might be why they chose the Vive), I've found the teleport/walk-around-in-area works better than I would have expected. I still have a great sense of presence in Vanishing Realms even though I have to jump every so often to be able to move around. It doesn't ruin my experience of the game. Even playing Elite sitting down, I get a slight sense of vertigo at first, but it fades quickly. I think I can handle walking speed (while standing up), but running would probably cause some dizziness.

FYI on VorpX, I wouldn't buy it. I did and I'm quite disappointed with it. I know games aren't meant for VR, but this didn't really do it for me when trying Alien: Isolation, Deus Ex, and BF4.

[Buatha]

It appears that in both the recent cases of Giant Cop and Serious Sam, the devs were offered money from oculus for timed exclusivity, which is not as evil as perma exclusivity imo.

Given the lack of content in general, I think it's quite damaging right now if they are going to wait until the Touch is released...and then maybe making Vive users wait even longer. There needs to be complete game experiences to sell those $600 and up systems in addition to the rig to run them. As it stands right now, I've only gotten the feel of a true game from Vanishing Realms. Space Pirate Trainer is fun for play sessions, but after an hour or so, we're done. I just picked up The Solus Project, but its VR implementation is still listed as Experimental.

[Rumpy]

With room scale (which might be why they chose the Vive), I've found the teleport/walk-around-in-area works better than I would have expected. I still have a great sense of presence in Vanishing Realms even though I have to jump every so often to be able to move around.

Right, but I wonder how that would work for something that wasn't designed for teleport-walking in the first place. Fallout has tons of walking in it, and that system could potentially deter exploration, which is a fundamental part of the experience. Then again, maybe I'm not understanding well enough how it works. Does it seemlessly teleport between scenes to the point that you don't even notice it?

[wonderpug]

With room scale (which might be why they chose the Vive),

They chose the Vive because their parent company ZeniMax is in the middle of a law suit with Oculus, saying that John Carmack stole VR related trade secrets when he left id Software (also ZeniMax) for Oculus.

[Max Peck]

They did have a Fallout 4 VR demo available at E3, so there should be hands-on reports out there.

Hands-on with the underwhelming Fallout 4 VR demo

One of the bigger surprises to come out of Bethesda's E3 conference was the news that the publisher had been secretly working on virtual reality demos of both Doom and Fallout 4 for the HTC Vive. While the Doom demo may never be more than a demo, Bethesda's marketing boss Pete Hines confirmed Fallout 4 for Vive would get a commercial release in 2017.

The two demos were available for attendees of Bethesda's post-conference shindig, so as soon as they started booting everyone out of the auditorium I did one of those super cool walk-run things through the crowd and managed to get myself to the front of the queue for Fallout 4 VR.

The demo was confined to Sanctuary Hills' Red Rocket gas station - the location in the game where you first meet Dogmeat. After I had strapped on the headset I was given two minutes to explore the building and take pot-shots at the scenery with Fallout 4's signature 10mm pistol.

With no enemies to shoot - not even a crummy little Radroach - my targets were limited to a few rows of bottles and a couple of unlucky mannequins - hardly the most exciting of prey. Generally, aiming and shooting in VR is pretty satisfying, especially if you manage to hit a bunch of targets in quick succession, but in the Fallout 4 VR demo it all felt very barebones. The 10mm pistol is not the most thrilling weapon at the best of times, but here it had infinite ammo, so there weren't even any of those cool reload mechanics you see in other VR shooters.

While my right hand was busy holding the pistol, bringing my left arm up in front of my face allowed me to check out my Pip-boy and browse though its menus. It was just the Pip-boy, mind you, floating there in mid air with no virtual arm to hold it in place - but the novelty of having to physically raise my arm to browse my stats added a sense of realism to the proceedings.

I believe this guy is mistaken about the scope of the demo. According to Todd Howard, the demo started at the Red Rocket, with Dogmeat, but if they didn't kick someone off then they'd be able to go all the way down to Diamond City if they wanted.

[Buatha]

Right, but I wonder how that would work for something that wasn't designed for teleport-walking in the first place. Fallout has tons of walking in it, and that system could potentially deter exploration, which is a fundamental part of the experience. Then again, maybe I'm not understanding well enough how it works. Does it seemlessly teleport between scenes to the point that you don't even notice it?

You simply point the cursor (which kind of looks like a grenade throw in other games) and you instantly stand where you aimed. I would look at a Vanishing Realms gameplay video. I would imagine it wouldn't be too difficult since you are simply providing the coordinates for you instead of moving there in a line.

In my living room, the ceiling fan sits in the middle of the room. So, I can move around in the play area with a reference point. When Chaperone kicks in, I can quickly center myself (by the gentle blowing of the fan), and point the cursor to the new area I wish to move around in.

[TiLT]

With room scale (which might be why they chose the Vive),

They chose the Vive because their parent company ZeniMax is in the middle of a law suit with Oculus, saying that John Carmack stole VR related trade secrets when he left id Software (also ZeniMax) for Oculus.

And before anyone accuses Oculus of being in the wrong there too, this is Bethesda's normal way of doing business. It's a little talked about secret in the industry, but Bethesda is likely the most sleazy, underhanded publisher today, doing things that should have been outright illegal in a better world. They've built their company around using money (and then withholding it) and any other method they can think of to absorb other companies that they like. Whenever you've seen a developer bought up by Bethesda without warning during the development of a game, it's pretty much guaranteed to not have been a voluntary thing from the developer's side.

Whatever else anyone may think about Bethesda, the horror stories told by developers who've had the displeasure of getting caught in the sights of Bethesda execs are absolutely disgusting. The Oculus story falls perfectly in line with this. I expect their plan was to use legal force to prevent Oculus from releasing the Rift until they settled or just sold their company to Bethesda, a process that "coincidentally" happened just after the Facebook deal. Thank fucking god Bethesda failed. However good their games may be, Bethesda deserves nothing but bankruptcy.

Edit: Just replace "Bethesda" with "Zenimax" in my post. It makes little difference. Zenimax tends to use Bethesda as a buffer to create plausible deniability, but they might not even have bothered with that this time around.

[Toe]

With room scale (which might be why they chose the Vive),

They chose the Vive because their parent company ZeniMax is in the middle of a law suit with Oculus, saying that John Carmack stole VR related trade secrets when he left id Software (also ZeniMax) for Oculus.

And before anyone accuses Oculus of being in the wrong there too, this is Bethesda's normal way of doing business. It's a little talked about secret in the industry, but Bethesda is likely the most sleazy, underhanded publisher today, doing things that should have been outright illegal in a better world. They've built their company around using money (and then withholding it) and any other method they can think of to absorb other companies that they like. Whenever you've seen a developer bought up by Bethesda without warning during the development of a game, it's pretty much guaranteed to not have been a voluntary thing from the developer's side.

Whatever else anyone may think about Bethesda, the horror stories told by developers who've had the displeasure of getting caught in the sights of Bethesda execs are absolutely disgusting. The Oculus story falls perfectly in line with this. I expect their plan was to use legal force to prevent Oculus from releasing the Rift until they settled or just sold their company to Bethesda, a process that "coincidentally" happened just after the Facebook deal. Thank fucking god Bethesda failed. However good their games may be, Bethesda deserves nothing but bankruptcy.

Edit: Just replace "Bethesda" with "Zenimax" in my post. It makes little difference. Zenimax tends to use Bethesda as a buffer to create plausible deniability, but they might not even have bothered with that this time around.

Just playing devils advocate here, but you have to admit that it is possible departing devs screwed over Zenimax by taking Zenimax IP with them when they left. It seems to be a not-so-uncommon thing in the development world and something I can relate to. "I put a lot of effort into developing X so it should be mine technically" even though legally, it is not.

And, if oculus continues to try stifling the VR platform through exclusivity agreements, maybe it we would have been better off if Bethesda won. I guess time will tell in regards to that.

[TiLT]

Just playing devils advocate here, but you have to admit that it is possible departing devs screwed over Zenimax by taking Zenimax IP with them when they left.

Yeah, and Zenimax only "accidentally" discovered that immediately after the Facebook acquisition, and not a moment before. Given their history, I find it exceedingly unlikely.

[Rumpy]

You simply point the cursor (which kind of looks like a grenade throw in other games) and you instantly stand where you aimed. I would look at a Vanishing Realms gameplay video. I would imagine it wouldn't be too difficult since you are simply providing the coordinates for you instead of moving there in a line.

Hmm, I see. I still wonder if that would break immersion in a first-person game, and how it would affect combat. If something is following/chasing you, or you're running towards something during combat, it would be awkward if you had to do what you describe while trying to avoid being hit at the same time. I foresee many arrows to the knee.

[Lee]

Just playing devils advocate here, but you have to admit that it is possible departing devs screwed over Zenimax by taking Zenimax IP with them when they left.

Yeah, and Zenimax only "accidentally" discovered that immediately after the Facebook acquisition, and not a moment before. Given their history, I find it exceedingly unlikely.

This is the first I have heard of Bethesda being sleazy, but on the other hand, Oculus's owner, Facebook, I know is sleazy and makes horrible software (see any of their apps they try to force users into as evidence).

Even though Oculus sounds like the better option for Elite and a couple of other games, everything I have heard and read, the Vive with its controllers is a better experience with better software.

I am still waiting until this is over to jump in though. I was tempted to get a Vive, but I need to see more games first.

[TiLT]

This is the first I have heard of Bethesda being sleazy

That's one of the really shitty parts about the whole thing. Everyone who has been affected by this is unable to speak about it because of contractual reasons. One guy semi-broke his contract and ranted hard against them on Twitter, and other people have spoken under anonymity or by not referring to Bethesda by name. Wondering why we never got a Prey 2 (until this E3's reboot announcement)? This is why.

Even though Oculus sounds like the better option for Elite and a couple of other games, everything I have heard and read, the Vive with its controllers is a better experience with better software.

Having never used the Vive, I can't speak from personal experience. However, I've got the completely opposite impression from you based on what I've seen and read from others. The general consensus seems to be that the Rift is superior as a headset, while the upcoming Touch controllers (which are still not final) are a far better experience than the Vive controllers. The big reason why the Vive is considered the better choice right now is simply because you can get the whole motion experience right now. The software solution for the Rift is more elegant too, even with Oculus Home being in its infancy. It's very likely that waiting for the Touch controllers with the Rift will provide a much better VR experience than what the Vive currently offers, but since these controllers aren't out until November or so, it takes a little patience.

I am still waiting until this is over to jump in though. I was tempted to get a Vive, but I need to see more games first.

If you're not itching to get VR right now, I strongly suggest waiting until Touch is out to get a better picture of the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms before making your choice. Suffice to say, the word among those developers who have Touch so far is extremely positive.

[Toe]

I have both rift and vive and I have to disgree somewhat with tilt, at least in regards to what we have today. Also, I have seen a few reviews that are more in the middle in terms of touch vs vive controllers, in that in some ways the vive is better and in others the touch is better. One of the most concerning issues with the touch I have read in reviews is the tracking is not as solid as it needs to be. Obviously that can be improved since it is still a ways to releasing, but something to keep an eye on as, imo, it is a crucial aspect of a VR good experience.

The software solution for the Rift is more elegant too, even with Oculus Home being in its infancy.

Honestly, this means very little to me, since its just a portal to the actual fun (i.e. playing games). I spend like 5 seconds in their home sections when I decide i want to play a game. While oculus home may be more elegant, the vive has more functionality in that you can go to your PC desktop and do stuff.

Here are some differences that I have noted that may or may not be relevant to others:

Sound - rift wins by having integrated headphones. Messing with 3rd-party headphones with the vive can be frustrating.

Comfort - This is a close one, but the vive comes out ahead for me. The vive is heavier, which causes me a few issues, but it is more comfortable on the face. I find myself needing to stop playing on my rift just due to the tightness of the headset. Yes, I can loosen it up, but then you get more nose gap, which is another issue the rift has that I do not have with the vive. Everyone's face is different so obviously this could very well not be an issue for others.

Visuals - I would give the rift a very slight advantage here, but not by much. God rays seem slightly less noticable on the rift, but still present. Also, by running the a tool, I can pump up the quality of most games on the rift (but only because i have the hardware to do it (titanX 12gb, i7, ssd). Another minor nod goes to the rift for having a utility to help set your eye gap size. Both headset allow you to adjust it, but only the rift (as far as I can tell) has a little utility that lets you set it right where it needs to be. With the vive its more of turning the knob and like "I think that looks better?"

With all this being said, I would like to add that some of the shine has worn off in terms of VR gaming for me (I was initially super excited). It's neat and cool and all that, but I find myself playing less and less as time goes by. One reason is there just is not that many compelling games (to me) out there on either platform. Lastly, while I am not a cheapskate when it comes to my gaming, I do analyze games on cost per hour of gameplay and some titles just do not seem worth it at the moment (wish they would have more demos of games). I could end up paying $40-50 for a 4-5 hour game that makes me motion sick/gives me headache.

If any OO'ers in the Nashville area are on the fence in regard to vive vs rift and would like to see both in action, send me a PM and we can see about arranging a demo at my home.

[Buatha]

Everything Toe said above

I believe Toe is right on about the differences. I had a Rift for a short time and ended up selling it to a friend as it's just a weaker VR experience right now. I found the god rays a little more bothersome than the rings with the Vive, as bright scenes completely remove them while the god rays seem to shine through even in well-lit scenes.

The only thing keeping me a little more active with VR is my kids. Space Pirate Trainer was a surprising hit with everyone and my daughter loved Waltz of the Wizard. The only somewhat complete Vive game experience, in my opinion, is Vanishing Realms, but it's mainly for the experience and not the quality of the gameplay or length of it.

For comfort, though, the Rift is nicer due to the support mechanism of the straps. The Vive's stretch straps with the cable right over the top-of-head strap is cumbersome. But, on the face, the cushy Vive lining feels better to me.

In all of my sessions, unless my hands covered the HMD for refitting, I've never lost tracking with the Vive and I've never had an issue tracking the controllers.

I've watched Tested's E3 coverage of the Touch controllers and they do look very nice as well as some of the games I saw being demo-ed, but I'll wait until it all shakes out...especially with pricing of the Touch and the upcoming games. Like Toe, I'm not big on spending $40-$60 on a four hour experience for a VR game. However, I would gladly spending Day One pricing for Fallout 4 on the Vive

P.S. The first game in the video, I noticed that he wasn't moving around the area very much, so I still see a "push"(?) for standing in an area and not room-scale movement.

[Lordnine]

So I got a chance to try out the Vive room-scale VR for about 4 hours today. It’s cool tech but I honestly had my fill by the end. I don’t think the current generation is really ready and the games certainly aren’t. Also, this was setup in a room that was about 10x10 feet and I felt like even that was barely enough room. I managed to bump into the sides a couple times even with the room safety feature.

I got to play quite a few different games. Valves own “The Lab” was probably the most polished (and amusing), but oddly, it was the one where I felt the least amount of immersion. Part of the problem is that in bright settings I was distracted by a faint blur on all the visuals and I could also see a slight pixel grid. Anyways, my favorite game from the lab was definitely archery. Holding one controller as the bow and pulling back the second just feels “right” and anyone who gets the chance to try this one should.

After that I played a bunch of tiny tech demo type experiences. They ranged from pretty fun to abysmal.

The last thing I tried out was Vanishing Realms. This was the closest thing to a “real” virtual reality experience that I got to play. I admit, picking up a torch and lighting a candle was kind of a “wow” moment. As such, I lit every other candle and torch I found just because I could. Oddly enough, despite having the worst graphics of any game I played, this one felt the most real to my brain. None of the other games I tried made me feel like I was in a real place but there were a few moments here where I felt genuine vertigo while looking down and I felt myself actually dodging out of the way of hazards. Unfortunately, the gameplay here got real repetitive by the end and my arms started to get tired from swinging my swords. Still, this one was a pretty cool experience.

All in all though, I would say the next generation Vive will have my attention.