Student Loan Debt Forgiveness

[El Guapo]

I suspect a lot of people don't know that Rutgers is a state school. Is it the only flagship state school that doesn't have the state name in its name?

[pr0ner]

Blah blah... I'm holding out hope that her grades will get her a yuge scholarship somewhere. But this whole bailing out thing is ridiculous. We shouldn't need to bail people out. It shouldn't be this broken.

I got straight A's all through high school (the only one in my class to do so), and almost none of the colleges I applied to/got accepted to back in 1998 offered me money.

[Octavious]

There are a ton of schools that give merit scholarships from what I've seen. She does qualify for the New Jersey stars for sure. Which means she could go to county for free. That would be the financially sound thing to do. I am really not enjoying this experience.

[ImLawBoy]

I suspect a lot of people don't know that Rutgers is a state school. Is it the only flagship state school that doesn't have the state name in its name?

Purdue isn't the "flagship" school of Indiana (that would be Indiana University), but it's a large state school that a lot of people don't realize is a state school.

[Smoove_B]

I'm not saying we should just forgive all loans without taking steps to fix the system, but surely the answer isn't "hope people learn math and figure something out."

And I'll repeat for those in the back that missed my earlier comments, they are being told not to worry about loans -- that it'll all "just work out" after you graduate and start making money. It's not just understanding math. It's having no context for what a $120K loan looks like at age 22 when you have no job or you're making $30K a year after being told it was your only path forward.

I've had so many discussions with people that went to college in the late 80s and 90s that try to compare the current higher education scenario to what they experienced; they're delusional.

[pr0ner]

There are a ton of schools that give merit scholarships from what I've seen. She does qualify for the New Jersey stars for sure. Which means she could go to county for free. That would be the financially sound thing to do. I am really not enjoying this experience.

I'm just happy 4 years of state school cost about $40,000 all in when I went. It is part of why I wound up going to Virginia Tech (my parents could afford it and I only had to work during the summer).

[Octavious]

Ya that's what pisses me off about people saying kids are irresponsible. They aren't being given a fair shot that most of these people were given. We're 100 percent on board with helping pay as much as we can. It's not her fault this country is broken, but the math is insane. And we're super conservative on our spending.

[noxiousdog]

Yeah my wife has both business and accounting degrees. She still had school loans. Can she not do math? That argument is completely irrelevant.

Sure there are people who make bad financial decisions. There are also people who make the best decision they can at the time for their particular situation, and they're put in a bad position by a system that is broken.

I'm not saying we should just forgive all loans without taking steps to fix the system, but surely the answer isn't "hope people learn math and figure something out."

That depends on how she feels about the debt now.

My main complaint is that the only debt we seem to care about enough to just waive it away is student loan debt. And for undergrads, it's just not that big unless you went to a private school (and frankly, my hatred of Baylor University definitely contributes to my bias).

My house debt is a magnitude higher than median student loan debt. My car debt is double. Median credit card debt is $8000/household at triple the interest rate.

[El Guapo]

I'm not saying we should just forgive all loans without taking steps to fix the system, but surely the answer isn't "hope people learn math and figure something out."

And I'll repeat for those in the back that missed my earlier comments, they are being told not to worry about loans -- that it'll all "just work out" after you graduate and start making money. It's not just understanding math. It's having no context for what a $120K loan looks like at age 22 when you have no job or you're making $30K a year after being told it was your only path forward.

I've had so many discussions with people that went to college in the late 80s and 90s that try to compare the current higher education scenario to what they experienced; they're delusional.

Also socially we're still essentially requiring four year college degrees as an entry requirement for a lot (most?) jobs, even aside from the substantive knowledge / experience requirements. So declining to get a college degree (aside from whether one can do the math) is not a great option for the most part (except maybe for people planning to go into certain specific fields). So "taking on tons of loans and then trying to figure it out later" isn't obviously irrational or dumb.

[El Guapo]

There are a ton of schools that give merit scholarships from what I've seen. She does qualify for the New Jersey stars for sure. Which means she could go to county for free. That would be the financially sound thing to do. I am really not enjoying this experience.

I just checked, and in-state tuition at UMass is ~ $16,000 per year. Up from ~ $10,000 when I went, but not insane especially before any financial aid.

[Octavious]

How much are the public schools near you? Aside from county this is just not true here unless you commute. Even if you commute to say Rutgers it will be 50-60k. 120k if you want to dump 18k a year on room and board. I really should just move now to a state that has reasonable public schools. There's still time.

[Smoove_B]

My main complaint is that the only debt we seem to care about enough to just waive it away is student loan debt. And for undergrads, it's just not that big unless you went to a private school (and frankly, my hatred of Baylor University definitely contributes to my bias).

Because we've created (or accepted) a system where 18 year olds are being told they need to get a 4 year degree in order to get a job. When you expect someone to absorb $100K just to get an entry level job? America.

In your example above, Johnny Redneck is presumably working and takes out a 60K car loan. If his job pays well, maybe that makes sense. If he's making just above minimum wage, he doesn't need a $60K car to get back and forth to his job and he'd be foolish to pursue one.

[Blackhawk]

And for undergrads, it's just not that big unless you went to a private school.

That depends pretty heavily on your income after the fact. My student debt is less than half of the price of a new car, and about 1/15 of a median 'first home', but for me that's still so much that I'll never be able to touch it. If it weren't on deferral I wouldn't even be able to keep up with the interest.

[GreenGoo]

I just checked, and in-state tuition at UMass is ~ $16,000 per year. Up from ~ $10,000 when I went, but not insane especially before any financial aid.

Engineering degree tuition is up 10x what I paid in '89 in Canada. So you're up 60% (since when?) and I'm up 900% in 34 years. inflation covers about 100%, so there's an 800% increase because...reasons? It's about the same $$$ as you, but in CAD. Still, not great for government subsidized education (the uni gets the money, not the student).

[noxiousdog]

I'm not saying we should just forgive all loans without taking steps to fix the system, but surely the answer isn't "hope people learn math and figure something out."

And I'll repeat for those in the back that missed my earlier comments, they are being told not to worry about loans -- that it'll all "just work out" after you graduate and start making money. It's not just understanding math. It's having no context for what a $120K loan looks like at age 22 when you have no job or you're making $30K a year after being told it was your only path forward.

I've had so many discussions with people that went to college in the late 80s and 90s that try to compare the current higher education scenario to what they experienced; they're delusional.

Who is telling them that?

[Smoove_B]

Who is telling them that?

Uhhh...everyone? High school staff. Colleges. Parents. Family. The pressure for the average 18 year old to attend a 4 year college immediately after graduating high school *at all costs* is immense. Again, I interact with ~20 year olds on the regular (~400 a year?) and have been for almost 2 decades. I have lost track of the number that have told me they are only in college because of pressure and they have no idea what they're doing or want to do; they're going through the motions.

[noxiousdog]

And for undergrads, it's just not that big unless you went to a private school.

That depends pretty heavily on your income after the fact. My student debt is less than half of the price of a new car, and about 1/15 of a median 'first home', but for me that's still so much that I'll never be able to touch it. If it weren't on deferral I wouldn't even be able to keep up with the interest.

Sure. But that's an income problem (which I am completely sympathetic to); not a debt problem. The solutions are completely different.

To be fair, Texas has a really, really good higher education system. It's affordable and quality. All community college credits and courses are fully transferrable to four year institutions. They are even doing four year degrees at community colleges that are in demand (nursing as an example). There's even research that people that start at community college and transfer outperform four year university students. The hypothesis is both survivor bias and you're more likely to be taught by a full professor instead of a grad student at a community college.

Community colleges tuition, books, and fees run about $1400/semester and you get $1500 in federal tax credits for three years.

University of Houston is $6000/semester. Room and board was $7,000.

So full four year degrees for under $20k if you live at home.

And yet, people still go to Baylor ($280k before aid ... $160k after for four years) and complain about loans. People want the college experience.

[stessier]

I suspect a lot of people don't know that Rutgers is a state school. Is it the only flagship state school that doesn't have the state name in its name?

Clemson is a state school.

[stessier]

Yeah my wife has both business and accounting degrees. She still had school loans. Can she not do math? That argument is completely irrelevant.

Sure there are people who make bad financial decisions. There are also people who make the best decision they can at the time for their particular situation, and they're put in a bad position by a system that is broken.

I'm not saying we should just forgive all loans without taking steps to fix the system, but surely the answer isn't "hope people learn math and figure something out."

That depends on how she feels about the debt now.

My main complaint is that the only debt we seem to care about enough to just waive it away is student loan debt. And for undergrads, it's just not that big unless you went to a private school (and frankly, my hatred of Baylor University definitely contributes to my bias).

My house debt is a magnitude higher than median student loan debt. My car debt is double. Median credit card debt is $8000/household at triple the interest rate.

We hire engineers from Clemson (a state school) who are from South Carolina (so get the in-state rates) who are 70 & 80k in debt. It's not just private schools.

[noxiousdog]

Who is telling them that?

Uhhh...everyone? High school staff. Colleges. Parents. Family. The pressure for the average 18 year old to attend a 4 year college immediately after graduating high school *at all costs* is immense. Again, I interact with ~20 year olds on the regular (~400 a year?) and have been for almost 2 decades. I have lost track of the number that have told me they are only in college because of pressure and they have no idea what they're doing or want to do; they're going through the motions.

That's a bit non-sequitur don't you think?

Everyone wants me to go to college, so I guess I have to go to an expensive university and take out a giant loan!

Anecdotal, of course, but the pressure today seems way less than it was when I was growing up. Trade schools and community colleges are considered way more of a valid option.

[stessier]

And for undergrads, it's just not that big unless you went to a private school.

That depends pretty heavily on your income after the fact. My student debt is less than half of the price of a new car, and about 1/15 of a median 'first home', but for me that's still so much that I'll never be able to touch it. If it weren't on deferral I wouldn't even be able to keep up with the interest.

Sure. But that's an income problem (which I am completely sympathetic to); not a debt problem. The solutions are completely different.

WTF? All debt problems are income problems. There is no debt that can't be solved by a high enough income.

[noxiousdog]

We hire engineers from Clemson (a state school) who are from South Carolina (so get the in-state rates) who are 70 & 80k in debt. It's not just private schools.

70k in debt for an engineering degree isn't a bad investment unless you decide not to be an engineer. Also, the average Clemson grad has 33k of debt.

[GreenGoo]

I'm curious what people's thoughts are about why some countries provide free post secondary education to their citizens. Perhaps they think a reasonable amount of debt to become an engineer is zero dollars? Why do would they think that?

Any takers? If you think the reason varies by country, feel free to provide more than 1 idea.

[El Guapo]

I'm curious what people's thoughts are about why some countries provide free post secondary education to their citizens. Perhaps they think a reasonable amount of debt to become an engineer is zero dollars? Why do would they think that?

Any takers? If you think the reason varies by country, feel free to provide more than 1 idea.

The more that a society decides that college is a necessary part of a citizen's education, the stronger the case becomes for providing a free public option for it, just like we do for high school and below. That probably doesn't mean free college for every college in existence currently, but providing at least one good free (or heavily subsidized) public college option makes sense.

[coopasonic]

I graduated from a private 4 year school in 94 and paid off my loans in 2001. I think I got lucky because I never really gave any thought to what the loans I was taking meant in the long term and I wouldn't give my dad a whole lot of credit for thinking it through either. The other lucky factor was getting a Comp Sci degree just as the internet really became a thing. Third "lucky" factor was my dad pitching in and I think I ended up with around 30k in student loan debt.

My oldest is looking at getting a comp sci degree from a state school and we'll be footing it as my comp sci degree gave me enough to make sure he starts out with a clean slate.

This is all context to say student loan forgiveness holds no value to me or my family and I support the idea of doing *something* to make secondary education accessible to everyone.

[Kraken]

I'm curious what people's thoughts are about why some countries provide free post secondary education to their citizens. Perhaps they think a reasonable amount of debt to become an engineer is zero dollars? Why do would they think that?

Any takers? If you think the reason varies by country, feel free to provide more than 1 idea.

The more that a society decides that college is a necessary part of a citizen's education, the stronger the case becomes for providing a free public option for it, just like we do for high school and below. That probably doesn't mean free college for every college in existence currently, but providing at least one good free (or heavily subsidized) public college option makes sense.

Healey announces plan to make community college free for Mass. adults

Following through on one of her campaign promises, Gov. Maura Healey on Wednesday proposed setting aside $20 million from the state’s 2024 budget to make community college free for residents older than 25.

The funding will help launch a program called MassReconnect, aimed at addressing workforce shortages and skills gaps by covering community college costs — including tuition, books, and wraparound services — for an estimated 1.8 million residents who haven’t already earned a college degree.

[Zaxxon]

This is all context to say student loan forgiveness holds no value to me or my family and I support the idea of doing *something* to make secondary education accessible to everyone.

Seconded.

[Blackhawk]

Who is telling them that?

Uhhh...everyone? High school staff. Colleges. Parents. Family. The pressure for the average 18 year old to attend a 4 year college immediately after graduating high school *at all costs* is immense. Again, I interact with ~20 year olds on the regular (~400 a year?) and have been for almost 2 decades. I have lost track of the number that have told me they are only in college because of pressure and they have no idea what they're doing or want to do; they're going through the motions.

That's a bit non-sequitur don't you think?

Everyone wants me to go to college, so I guess I have to go to an expensive university and take out a giant loan!

I think you underestimate the effects of parents, counselors, teachers, and society in general on a kid. This isn't something inflicted on 20-somethings who have some experience being themselves, this is something that's applied to elementary school kids, then continued through intermediate and high school. When the 18-year-old kid is making up his mind, it isn't from the perspective of an adult who's used to making their own life decisions and researching alternatives, it's from the perspective of a child that just became an adult last week, and has spent those 18 years being expected to live up to a standard applied by his elders, and that standard has been clear, since they were single-digits old, that after high school you go to college.

[Blackhawk]

And again, we're talking about 18-19 year olds here. The part of the brain the provides good judgment doesn't develop fully until the mid-20s, five or six years later. We really need to stop looking at what a teenager should have done from the perspective of an adult with 30-40 years of experience in the real world.

We can't blame them for not understanding the impact of long-term financial decisions. Long term? We want an 18-year-old to figure out how they're going to manage their finances a decade later when they've only seen one decade in its entirety. A decade ago they were in third grade. A decade from now? They don't have the experience to even conceive of that beyond an abstract level that's more wishing and fantasy than it is reality (which, again, they don't know yet, as that's a thing that comes with experience.)

We can't blame them for making a decision when it is the only option they're presented with to achieve what they're often told is their only path forward. Where does choice even fit into that?

We can't blame them for not understanding convoluted financial issues when they likely had only rudimentary education on the topic, and when their counselors, the schools, and the banks have been bombarding them with manipulative hard-sell tactics for a year on it. My youngest is 19. He's getting phone calls and letters for student loans constantly, sometimes two or three mailings per day, and it's all the same kind of manipulative advertising that gets older adults into trouble all the time, full of careful phrasing and psychological tricks to make it sound like a panacea with no downsides. It stands out to me as a series of red flags, but he's never been the one with his name on the envelope before, having to judge the value with no real experience.

Some parents, themselves usually well-educated and attentive, present them with the alternatives. Trade school. Community college. Apprenticeship. Some parents stand there and walk through every option with their kids, including the financial decisions and the long-term impacts. But we sure as hell can't blame the kids who aren't lucky enough to have parents who are like that. The majority either don't, or their parents themselves don't have the experience necessary to properly guide them.

We can't blame them for making poor decisions based on decisions that we, with decades more experience and fully functioning brains, would have made. I'm not saying that they're not responsible to a degree, but it's certainly not all (or even majorly) on them. We've got a series of systems that get rich by manipulating vulnerable people, and surprise - it works.

[Zaxxon]

Much of the time, they're 17 when deciding their applications, [initial] major, and initial costs. They are literally children.

[RunningMn9]

I was just piling on to support the notion that the NJ state university system does not have a great reputation. Not much of a brag. Also, more of a self-own since I didn’t even realize Rutgers was a state school!

Sorry, Scarlet Knights!

No worries. As with all things, it depends. Generally speaking, Rutgers and NJIT have excellent reputations. Within certain programs, Montclair has an excellent reputation (their proximity to NYC provides their TV/Film students with excellent opportunities).

But we are used to slights like this in the same way we understand that everyone thinks NJ is wall-to-wall Port Elizabeth.

[RunningMn9]

I suspect a lot of people don't know that Rutgers is a state school. Is it the only flagship state school that doesn't have the state name in its name?

It’s official name is “Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey”.

There are other state schools, but Rutgers is the one that most feels like other state university systems (multiple campuses around the state), with a large main campus that basically takes over its host city (New Brunswick).

[RunningMn9]

I suspect a lot of people don't know that Rutgers is a state school. Is it the only flagship state school that doesn't have the state name in its name?

Purdue isn't the "flagship" school of Indiana (that would be Indiana University), but it's a large state school that a lot of people don't realize is a state school.

I obviously know Purdue, but I did not know that it’s a state school (and this lack of knowledge does not fill me with pride!).

[noxiousdog]

Blackhawk, I understand where you're coming from, but I simply don't agree. Yours and Smoove's experience is nothing like mine or people I know, and I have 3 kids who either are in or just finished high school. None of them were coerced into university; nor were their peers.

Maybe it's regional?

I'm also hesitant to play the kids are too naive card. It seems convenient to trust them make decisions that are politically expedient (voting/abortion/driving), but not have to be responsible for their actions. If they are so incapable of decision making, should we change the justice system to treat them as adults when they are 25? That seems like it would be pretty unpopular.

[noxiousdog]

Regarding debt forgiveness, I feel very strongly there should be programs in place that provide relief for those that go into public service. Teachers, public engineers. Physicians and lawyers that volunteer their time to those in need. Social workers - whatever the job, if there's a public service element that should qualify for relief.

I didn't see this earlier, but this is completely reasonable.

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk, I understand where you're coming from, but I simply don't agree. Yours and Smoove's experience is nothing like mine or people I know, and I have 3 kids who either are in or just finished high school. None of them were coerced into university; nor were their peers.

Maybe it's regional?

It's anecdotal. My experience and your experience aren't really relevant. Which is why only my first post was built around my own personal experiences.

[disarm]

I suspect a lot of people don't know that Rutgers is a state school. Is it the only flagship state school that doesn't have the state name in its name?

Purdue isn't the "flagship" school of Indiana (that would be Indiana University), but it's a large state school that a lot of people don't realize is a state school.

I don't agree with this. As someone who grew up in Indiana and graduated from Indiana University twice (BS and MD), I would say without a doubt that most people in Indiana and surrounding states are well aware that Purdue is a state school, and it is definitely a flagship state university for those interested in the fields of engineering, veterinary medicine or agriculture. In contrast, Indiana University is known for its strong programs in business, music, education and biological/physical sciences. For those looking for a school in Indiana, both are equally well regarded, with the ultimate decision made based on your desired field of study. They each have strong programs that are largely unavailable at the other.

[GreenGoo]

The more that a society decides that college is a necessary part of a citizen's education, the stronger the case becomes for providing a free public option for it, just like we do for high school and below.

Do you think these countries feel it's a necessary part of a citizen's education? Is that why it's free?

[GreenGoo]

Healey announces plan to make community college free for Mass. adults

Following through on one of her campaign promises, Gov. Maura Healey on Wednesday proposed setting aside $20 million from the state’s 2024 budget to make community college free for residents older than 25.

The funding will help launch a program called MassReconnect, aimed at addressing workforce shortages and skills gaps by covering community college costs — including tuition, books, and wraparound services — for an estimated 1.8 million residents who haven’t already earned a college degree.

Many (most?) of Canada's universities offer free education for anyone 65 or older. I have no idea of they receive government money per student or not. I'm going to assume not (at least not full re-embursment) because not every university offers this.

[GreenGoo]

I think you underestimate the effects of parents, counselors, teachers, and society in general on a kid.

Absolutely. I once had a co-worker that thought that all that was necessary to accomplish anything was to decide to accomplish it. Poor people in more destitute countries don't have a college education and it's their fault for not getting one.

There are two problems there. Human psychology is far more complex than this guy believed, and opportunity matters. He was my friend for a few years, so he had other redeeming qualities.

And all this from a failed business owner who was currently in a middling IT government job.

People are weird.