Octopus Overlords

D.A.Lewis wrote:

msduncan wrote:

D.A.Lewis wrote:

Rip wrote: He gets that solid base and then he can tailor his positions to pull in some fringes. Because that base doesn't give a crap about 75% of his positions. You are right about one thing. It is fueled by hate, but not racial hate. It is elitist establishment hate and there is a lot of it.

The fuel driving the Trump truck is multi hatred. Yep, there is some hatred for the elites, but the main component of this fuel is racial animosity.<snip>

That's pretty much bullshit, and it's the same cheap ass tactic that seems to have come into fad these days to shout down opposing opinions on pet political positions.

No it's not. Trumps race baiting, isn't imaginary it was seen and recorded. It's something you can see for yourself. You don't even have to be a member of a specific party to spot it because it has been seen by all sides. Calling it a "cheap ass tactic is in itself a tactic to reduce calling out a moral flaw into some kind of political strategy.

I think it's legitimate to point out that the left does sometimes race bait and shout down opposition by claiming something or someone is racist.

That is not the case with Donald Trump. He's a racist demagogue, and his supporters are apparently OK with supporting a racist demagogue to lead the US, regardless of whether or not they are racists themselves.

I still don't get it. Trump wants Reagan's America without the "Let's"? So his appeal is to borrow against the future until it's ready to break, expand the military, and take the "Let's" (us doing the work?) out of the equation?

Also had a scary lunch today with some on not so working class folks who said "Hillary vs Trump, then it's Trump. Trump has to surround himself by people smarter than he is." I felt like I was Roger just discovering all of his episodes of Bones had removed from TiVo.

Isgrimnur wrote:Sexism and racism will always be things, but they are not quite as entrenched in society as a given as they once were.

Yeah, it's not like in the 1950s when states like Georgia were trying to pass religious liberty laws. Did I say 1950s? Because I meant today.

GreenGoo wrote:

msduncan wrote:Grif, it's not our job to find solutions for the disenfranchised Reps. I don't even know specifically what their issue is. I'm not one and don't claim to empathize with them. "No one cares about us" is not a coherent position. I know Trump sure as hell ain't a solution for whatever it is though.

Goo, it's not our job to find solutions for problems impacting the African-American community. I'm not one and don't claim to empathize with them. "Black Lives Matter" is not a coherent position.

How do you feel about that statement?

GreenGoo wrote:

msduncan wrote: That's pretty much bullshit, and it's the same cheap ass tactic that seems to have come into fad these days to shout down opposing opinions on pet political positions.

Every article, including those from right leaning groups, has commented on and backed with cites and evidence that this is true. Coldcocking a guy being escorted out? Shoving a woman around? Calls for the return of Auschwitz? Go back to Africa?

Trump literally has NO POLITICAL opinion to oppose. Build a wall between Mexico and the US? How is that anything but rhetoric? How do you engage Trump on the issues when Trump himself avoids commenting on anything besides being a winner and everyone else being losers? What is it that you would have them do, MSD?

Grif, it's not our job to find solutions for the disenfranchised Reps. I don't even know specifically what their issue is. I'm not one and don't claim to empathize with them. "No one cares about us" is not a coherent position. I know Trump sure as hell ain't a solution for whatever it is though.

So you don't know the issue and you don't empathize with them, but you are sure Trump isn't the solution. I'm sure it is hard to resist buying into that.

Seems you are taking the same approach that has been failing dramatically. Good luck with that.

Grifman wrote:

D.A.Lewis wrote:No it's not. Trumps race baiting, isn't imaginary it was seen and recorded. It's something you can see for yourself. You don't even have to be a member of a specific party to spot it because it has been seen by all sides. Calling it a "cheap ass tactic is in itself a tactic to reduce calling out a moral flaw into some kind of political strategy.

Is it there, yes? But your point was the main reason people are voting for Trump is racial hatred. For which you have yet to provide any evidence. That's BS until you do.

I'll introduce you to a former colleague of mine. He is absolutely giddy at the prospect that Trump "will get rid of the spics and sand n*****s." The asshat even took his teenage daughter to the Trump rally that was canceled in Chicago last week.

Grifman wrote:

D.A.Lewis wrote:No it's not. Trumps race baiting, isn't imaginary it was seen and recorded. It's something you can see for yourself. You don't even have to be a member of a specific party to spot it because it has been seen by all sides. Calling it a "cheap ass tactic is in itself a tactic to reduce calling out a moral flaw into some kind of political strategy.

Is it there, yes? But your point was the main reason people are voting for Trump is racial hatred. For which you have yet to provide any evidence. That's BS until you do.

Well, he started his campaign by claiming that illegal immigrants from Mexico were criminals, and specifically rapists. Admittedly he suggested that some of them might be good people, possibly. And his campaign took off.

Sure, some people are going to claim that they support Trump because of his stance on illegal immigration, but that's like supporting a KKK member and then claiming it's because of his stance on innercity gang violence.

Illegal immigration is bad is a valid political stance. Illegal immigration mostly consists of rapists crossing the border is not.

It's not rocket science. You just have to listen to him for 5 minutes, or listen to interviews with his supporters. What sort of proof would satisfy you?

Jeff V wrote:I'll introduce you to a former colleague of mine. He is absolutely giddy at the prospect that Trump "will get rid of the spics and sand n*****s." The asshat even took his teenage daughter to the Trump rally that was canceled in Chicago last week.

Come on, Jeff, you do know what anecdotal evidence is, right? And how you can't generalize from it, right? And how I could do something similar with certain Democratic voters, right?

Smoove_B wrote:

Isgrimnur wrote:Sexism and racism will always be things, but they are not quite as entrenched in society as a given as they once were.

Yeah, it's not like in the 1950s when states like Georgia were trying to pass religious liberty laws. Did I say 1950s? Because I meant today.

In the 1950s, this paragraph doesn't get written:

Similar bills in states like Indiana and Arkansas sparked storms of criticism last year, forcing many lawmakers to retreat from the provisions.

Rip wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:

msduncan wrote: That's pretty much bullshit, and it's the same cheap ass tactic that seems to have come into fad these days to shout down opposing opinions on pet political positions.

Every article, including those from right leaning groups, has commented on and backed with cites and evidence that this is true. Coldcocking a guy being escorted out? Shoving a woman around? Calls for the return of Auschwitz? Go back to Africa?

Trump literally has NO POLITICAL opinion to oppose. Build a wall between Mexico and the US? How is that anything but rhetoric? How do you engage Trump on the issues when Trump himself avoids commenting on anything besides being a winner and everyone else being losers? What is it that you would have them do, MSD?

Grif, it's not our job to find solutions for the disenfranchised Reps. I don't even know specifically what their issue is. I'm not one and don't claim to empathize with them. "No one cares about us" is not a coherent position. I know Trump sure as hell ain't a solution for whatever it is though.

So you don't know the issue and you don't empathize with them, but you are sure Trump isn't the solution. I'm sure it is hard to resist buying into that.

Seems you are taking the same approach that has been failing dramatically. Good luck with that.

I'm as sure that Trump is not the solution to whatever problem they are having as I am sure that Cancer is not a cure for the common cold.

GreenGoo wrote:It's not rocket science. You just have to listen to him for 5 minutes, or listen to interviews with his supporters. What sort of proof would satisfy you?

A scientific based poll showing that Trump supporter supported racism. Otherwise, you just have your opinion, and we know what this worth

Grifman wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:It's not rocket science. You just have to listen to him for 5 minutes, or listen to interviews with his supporters. What sort of proof would satisfy you?

A scientific based poll showing that Trump supporter supported racism. Otherwise, you just have your opinion, and we know what this worth

Ok, let me know when you see one, and I'll do the same. Until then I only have the reams upon reams of documented instances to go on. In particular the cheering at his rallies when some hateful shit comes out of his mouth.

Grifman wrote:

Jeff V wrote:I'll introduce you to a former colleague of mine. He is absolutely giddy at the prospect that Trump "will get rid of the spics and sand n*****s." The asshat even took his teenage daughter to the Trump rally that was canceled in Chicago last week.

Come on, Jeff, you do know what anecdotal evidence is, right? And how you can't generalize from it, right? And how I could do something similar with certain Democratic voters, right?

And, the poll spikes every time he spouted racially-charged or sexist crap is just a coincidence?

GreenGoo wrote:Well, he started his campaign by claiming that illegal immigrants from Mexico were criminals, and specifically rapists. Admittedly he suggested that some of them might be good people, possibly. And his campaign took off.

It also seems like his next spike was with the going to Middle East and missling ISIS to the ground and killing their families.

Then his next spike was to ban Muslims from entering the country until we can figure out...

None of that is racist but there's a pattern that in all of these things where circles of Donald Trumps campaign vomit and racist rallying cries overlap.

Grifman wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:It's not rocket science. You just have to listen to him for 5 minutes, or listen to interviews with his supporters. What sort of proof would satisfy you?

A scientific based poll showing that Trump supporter supported racism. Otherwise, you just have your opinion, and we know what this worth

Wasnt there a poll that said that 20% of Trump supporters didn't support slavery being abolished?

GreenGoo wrote:

Grifman wrote:

D.A.Lewis wrote:No it's not. Trumps race baiting, isn't imaginary it was seen and recorded. It's something you can see for yourself. You don't even have to be a member of a specific party to spot it because it has been seen by all sides. Calling it a "cheap ass tactic is in itself a tactic to reduce calling out a moral flaw into some kind of political strategy.

Is it there, yes? But your point was the main reason people are voting for Trump is racial hatred. For which you have yet to provide any evidence. That's BS until you do.

Well, he started his campaign by claiming that illegal immigrants from Mexico were criminals, and specifically rapists. Admittedly he suggested that some of them might be good people, possibly. And his campaign took off.

Sure, some people are going to claim that they support Trump because of his stance on illegal immigration, but that's like supporting a KKK member and then claiming it's because of his stance on innercity gang violence.

Illegal immigration is bad is a valid political stance. Illegal immigration mostly consists of rapists crossing the border is not.

It's not rocket science. You just have to listen to him for 5 minutes, or listen to interviews with his supporters. What sort of proof would satisfy you?

Well if a handful of racist supporting Trump is proof that racism is the main force behind Trump why isn't a handful of Rapist being Illegal Immigrants proof that many of them are? Plenty of flawed logic to go around, but POTUS elections aren't really about logic, are they?

Rip wrote: Well if a handful of racist supporting Trump is proof that racism is the main force behind Trump why isn't a handful of Rapist being Illegal Immigrants proof that many of them are? Plenty of flawed logic to go around, but POTUS elections aren't really about logic, are they?

I refute your "handful" statement. If others are not allowed to say "majority" without proof, you aren't allowed to say "handful" without proof. The rest of what you wrote is gibberish.

I can't speak for how Americans vote for their leader, but I know I absolutely use critical thinking when deciding who to vote for.

Grifman wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:It's not rocket science. You just have to listen to him for 5 minutes, or listen to interviews with his supporters. What sort of proof would satisfy you?

A scientific based poll showing that Trump supporter supported racism. Otherwise, you just have your opinion, and we know what this worth

You're asking for something that is almost certainly not to happen, regardless of whether it's true or not that racial animus is motivating Trump supporters. Even if a pollster were to ask about it, most people would not admit the racism to a pollster. They would talk about immigration or crime or some other topic that, while legitimate on its face, is often a code for racism. It's kind of similar to asking someone to prove a negative - it's just not realistically possible.

In such a case, it is perfectly reasonable to use indirect evidence to draw conclusions. The facts that Trump has been brazenly racist, both during this campaign and prior to it, and that many supporters seem to rally around his racist positions would seem to lend some credence to the argument that racism is a driving force behind Trump's campaign. It's not conclusive evidence, obviously, but neither is the evidence from the article you posted that started much of this discussion. I suspect that there are elements of truth to both of these - there's a large racist component to Trump's support, but there's also a large component of support from those who feel disenfranchised and ignored (although I personally side with those who think it's illogical for those people to support Trump, but logic and politics are not necessarily bedfellows).

Defiant wrote:

Grifman wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:It's not rocket science. You just have to listen to him for 5 minutes, or listen to interviews with his supporters. What sort of proof would satisfy you?

A scientific based poll showing that Trump supporter supported racism. Otherwise, you just have your opinion, and we know what this worth

Wasnt there a poll that said that 20% of Trump supporters didn't support slavery being abolished?

The poll was actually about Lincoln's use of an Executive Order to abolish slavery. In the context of the poll itself and the feelings of many Republicans about Obama's use of Executive Orders, I think it was more of a referendum on the use of EOs than on slavery. I'm sure most (but not all, I'm also sadly sure) would say that slavery should have been abolished, it just should have been done through the legislative process.

Grifman wrote: That said, no one here has actually recognized before what is driving this vote (I could have missed this in 72 pages). Few have commented on what problems these people face, much less proposed any solutions for them.

Obamacare? Increased minimum wage? Improved social safety net? Public funding for college or trade schools? All these are Democratic ideas fought tooth and nail by Republicans that would and have made these peoples lives better.

ImLawBoy wrote: there's also a large component of support from those who feel disenfranchised and ignored.

I imagine (and I hope it's not just my imagination) that this is a larger subsection of Trump support. The people who are angry and feel powerless against the oligarchy (again illogical to support the billionaire legal rules gamer) are expressing their anger. But they're not the ones I fear. I fear the powerless and angry bigots who are using this as an excuse to be further emboldened to go be a revolutionary by shooting up or burning down a black church in South Carolina or use his views on women to justify getting drunk and angry and domestically abusive or worse. This is the "reversing course" or "great again" I'm ascared of.

Grifman wrote:

D.A.Lewis wrote:No it's not. Trumps race baiting, isn't imaginary it was seen and recorded. It's something you can see for yourself. You don't even have to be a member of a specific party to spot it because it has been seen by all sides. Calling it a "cheap ass tactic is in itself a tactic to reduce calling out a moral flaw into some kind of political strategy.

Is it there, yes? But your point was the main reason people are voting for Trump is racial hatred. For which you have yet to provide any evidence. That's BS until you do.

In a sense you are right, I have no direct evidence that the main reason people are voting for Trump is racial hatred. But when people are polled and interviewed and you hear the same things over and over. It is not a stretch to draw a conclusion of what drives far too many of these people.

But to call it BS is wrong - Political candidates throughout the ages have been talking about getting better deals for their people. Rand Paul had a similar populist appeal like Trump, a couple years ago he even said there were parts of the civil rights act he would not have supported but Paul's campaign never took off. The running themes when Trump supporters talk about why they like him is because:

1) he tells it like it is (Christy-Trump)
2) he says things we say at home, he not politically correct (Trump)
3) he wants to stick it to the establishment (most all of em)

The thing that distinguishes Trump from the others is no one else is doing the race baiting. And because he is going big with it, he is getting all those folks who feel likewise.

Rip wrote: Well if a handful of racist supporting Trump is proof that racism is the main force behind Trump why isn't a handful of Rapist being Illegal Immigrants proof that many of them are? Plenty of flawed logic to go around, but POTUS elections aren't really about logic, are they?

Trump entered politics as the birther conspirator. His campaign took off with attacks on Mexicans and other immigrants. He promises torture and war against foreigners unconstrained by civilized codes of law and conduct. He claims he'll restore American greatness by bending other countries to his will. His rallies run on the energy of hating minorities, protesters, the press, and anyone perceived to stand against the angry "silent majority" he claims to represent.

Other than vague promises to "bring the jobs home" (without any plan whatsoever for how a president can do that), what besides racist/nationalist animosity and threats does Trump have to offer? Certain nothing new: tax cuts for the rich and repealing Obamacare are old hat for Republicans, and that's pretty much the rest of his agenda.

Where does Trump promise in any substantive way ("I'm a winner and I'll kick ass!" isn't substantive) to address the problems we're now saying need to be addressed? Where has he even noticed them except as fodder to attack the enemies listed above?

Trump's appeal isn't reform but reactionary revanchism, the politics of revenge against perceived national/racial enemies. Racism is one arm of that appeal, but the rest is nearly as ugly, and there little more to him than that.

I realize I'm hot blooded when it comes to Trump, who I view as, at best, a con artist and at worst, well, not a good candidate for PotUS.

In the interest of having a more balanced discussion, since OO leans left of center, I'll try to tone down my comments and frequency so that Rip and Grif can be more easily heard.

For the record, I understand their position on disenfranchisement and the need to rattle the cage in a significant way so that the disenfranchised can be heard. I just disagree about who they've chosen as their champion.

No group is homogeneous, so of course Trump is going to have supporters from all walks of life, for all sorts of reasons. It just seems to me that the majority of the reasons I'm hearing through media, from his supporters, and from Trump himself are pretty awful in a way that makes my disagreement with other conservatives previously seem like completely reconcilable differences, comparatively.

I didn't like Trump before this election cycle. I continue to not like Trump during the election cycle. I feel I have pretty good reasons for my dislike, and I find it impossible to imagine a scenario where Trump will help anyone but himself, let alone the working man. As has been said, he's the antithesis of that group.

I do hope that whatever is causing the uprising in Trump support, it results in a better political process down the road.

Holman wrote: Other than vague promises to "bring the jobs home" (without any plan whatsoever for how a president can do that), what besides racist/nationalist animosity and threats does Trump have to offer?

Ending free trade? AFAIK, some people are supporting him for that.

http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2016/03 ... ce-troops/

The next time you go all Kevin Williamson on Trump supporters, and begin writing them off as imbeciles and racists and xenophobes and untermenschen, remember that members of the armed forces support Trump in about the same proportion as does the nation at large.

Rip wrote:http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2016/03 ... ce-troops/

The next time you go all Kevin Williamson on Trump supporters, and begin writing them off as imbeciles and racists and xenophobes and untermenschen, remember that members of the armed forces support Trump in about the same proportion as does the nation at large.

So less than the typical Republican does?

Rip wrote:http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2016/03 ... ce-troops/

The next time you go all Kevin Williamson on Trump supporters, and begin writing them off as imbeciles and racists and xenophobes and untermenschen, remember that members of the armed forces support Trump in about the same proportion as does the nation at large.

Uh...is this supposed to be some sort of trick because this guy somehow believes that the military are beyond criticism? Is he aware of the recent push to reduce sexism in the Armed Forces, and why that push exists, as just one example?

It's hard to imagine holding up a worse example of why Trump followers aren't all the things he listed.

I feel like this post was a trap, somehow.

ImLawBoy wrote:

Defiant wrote:

Grifman wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:It's not rocket science. You just have to listen to him for 5 minutes, or listen to interviews with his supporters. What sort of proof would satisfy you?

A scientific based poll showing that Trump supporter supported racism. Otherwise, you just have your opinion, and we know what this worth

Wasnt there a poll that said that 20% of Trump supporters didn't support slavery being abolished?

The poll was actually about Lincoln's use of an Executive Order to abolish slavery. In the context of the poll itself and the feelings of many Republicans about Obama's use of Executive Orders, I think it was more of a referendum on the use of EOs than on slavery. I'm sure most (but not all, I'm also sadly sure) would say that slavery should have been abolished, it just should have been done through the legislative process.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... ation.html

So it's a little bit understandable that people who weren't quite paying close attention during a long poll and/or had just voiced their opposition to executive orders might give an answer to an executive-order question that made it sound like they were pro-slavery. In fact, YouGov's own breakdown (see item 128) shows that 5 percent of black respondents told its pollsters that they disapproved of the order that freed America's slaves. Are 2 million black Americans really pro-slavery?

As much as support and honor the sacrifice of those that serve in uniform, that doesn't give their opinions on political candidates any more weight to me than some random celebrity, or anyone else for that matter. Serving in uniform does not give one some special insight into how the political leadership should work.

Rip wrote:http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2016/03 ... ce-troops/

The next time you go all Kevin Williamson on Trump supporters, and begin writing them off as imbeciles and racists and xenophobes and untermenschen, remember that members of the armed forces support Trump in about the same proportion as does the nation at large.

So you're entertained by the "Nice democracy you've got there, be a shame if something happened to it" angle? Popcorn time indeed.

I hear you. 2nd place was Bernie Sanders. Fucking morons.

That they "support Trump in about the same proportion as does the nation at large" doesn't say much for Trump when you consider that servicepeople tend to be more conservative than the population as a whole.

Maybe they see something other conservatives don't?

Holman wrote:That they "support Trump in about the same proportion as does the nation at large" doesn't say much for Trump when you consider that servicepeople tend to be more conservative than the population as a whole.

Maybe they see something other conservatives don't?

Whatever the factors it is a very interesting poll.

Sanders doubled Hillary.

Grifman wrote:It's easy to dismiss Drumpf supporters as a bunch of racist know nothing yahoos, but that would be ignoring the legitimate issues that are driving his popularity.

I don't think "legitimate" means what you think it means. There are perceived issues that are driving his popularity.

RunningMn9 wrote:

Grifman wrote:It's easy to dismiss Drumpf supporters as a bunch of racist know nothing yahoos, but that would be ignoring the legitimate issues that are driving his popularity.

I don't think "legitimate" means what you think it means. There are perceived issues that are driving his popularity.

That is the spirit.

Who wouldn't be swayed by being told their issues aren't legitimate just perceived to be so?

Rip wrote:

RunningMn9 wrote:

Grifman wrote:It's easy to dismiss Drumpf supporters as a bunch of racist know nothing yahoos, but that would be ignoring the legitimate issues that are driving his popularity.

I don't think "legitimate" means what you think it means. There are perceived issues that are driving his popularity.

That is the spirit.

Who wouldn't be swayed by being told their issues aren't legitimate just perceived to be so?

Hopefully a little education would go a long way. Of course, education is the nemesis of the GOP. There was an article posted the other day about how the Koch brothers are trying to torpedo support for the expansion of a small suburbs library, in spite of a study that shows that each dollar spent on the library in that community translates into more than $5 worth of value. The only explanation for their opposition is a desire to keep the masses dumb.

El Guapo wrote:

Kraken wrote:

GreenGoo wrote: Every time the Reps talk about tax cuts for the rich, or flat tax, or whatever, they are directly stepping on the poor and less educated. Suddenly they are surprised that their party doesn't care about them?

If Trump's candidacy finally drives a stake through the cold shriveled heart of supply-side economics, it will have achieved a valuable service that real-world experience failed to do, and the R Party will be healthier for it.

The only problem is that Trump has proposed the same type of massive regressive tax cuts as his GOP opponents have. Of course, he seems entirely unmoored from his past positions and past statements, but that is at least nominally his current position.

True, but I assume that's just a cut-and-paste job. Trump seems uninterested in making policy and will most likely hire people to do that for him, and then gleefully fire them and hire others.

Jeff V wrote:Hopefully a little education would go a long way.

Unfortunately, that is the one thing that the majority of Trump supporters specifically lack.

As an example of a "perceived" issue, I'm referring to something like the notion that somehow ISIS is an existential threat to the average Trump supporter. It's not a legitimate issue, because ISIS poses virtually no threat to the average Trump supporter.

As to whether their feeling of voicelessness is perceived or legitimate - that could be a trickier issue - but I don't know that I would agree that it's legitimate if no one is representing my beliefs. Sometimes it's because you have stupid beliefs.

Rip wrote:

RunningMn9 wrote:

Grifman wrote:It's easy to dismiss Drumpf supporters as a bunch of racist know nothing yahoos, but that would be ignoring the legitimate issues that are driving his popularity.

I don't think "legitimate" means what you think it means. There are perceived issues that are driving his popularity.

That is the spirit.

Who wouldn't be swayed by being told their issues aren't legitimate just perceived to be so?

The Islamic takeover and the Mexican rapist invasion are both perceived issues rather than legitimate ones. Sure there are legitimate issues floating in the stew somewhere but they are more coincidental than core.