Shootings

[hepcat]

Depends on your humanity, I guess. For me, I don’t condone murdering the CEO of Exxon for his cutting corners that lead to the Exxon Valdez oil spill. I hope that the justice system steps in when someone does something wrong. But for some folks, rage is all they see and they feel okay with murdering people they’ve now elevated to Nazi concentration camp status.

Was Thompson maximizing profits at the expense of policy holder’s health….and sometimes lives? Yes. And while doing so, he probably justified it by citing the extraordinary amount of insurance fraud committed by people every day, and the company’s intent to stay solvent in light of that fact by aggressively investigating and sometimes unjustly finding fault. He probably justified it also by believing people sought out his company’s cheaper policies and should expect more difficulty.

But at the end of the day, we have a broken health care system that pushes people into cheap policies because our politicians suck. If we’re cheering the death of a CEO of a health insurance company, let’s just complete the circuit and start demanding the death of the politicians who make it legal. I’ll meet you all on Jan. 6th in Washington. I’ll be in a combo Bea Arthur/MAGA shaman outfit.

[Holman]

I hope that the justice system steps in when someone does something wrong.

What we're seeing is that this hope is a very thin reed.

I agree that we shouldn't yet be setting up guillotines. But if those in power want to avoid The Terror, they need to do *much* more than just remind everyone that The Terror would be inappropriate.

[hepcat]

I think we need to establish when the system is so far gone that it NEEDS to be destroyed, and when it still works enough to allow citizens to make a meaningful change. It's hard changing a system that's existed for generations. I don't think there's any way around that. But I don't think it's impossible and in need of a literal revolution for that substantial change to occur.*

Obama took a chunk out of its armor during his term with the ACA. We just need enough people to stand up and yell "this really sucks, y'all" (and not "Hawk Tuah"...I'm looking at you Daehawk) to get that change through. At the end of the day, the people in Washington are there because we put them there. The Kasey Chang approach of "we have no power whatsoever and the only way change is going to happen in this country is through violence!" is juvenile and naive. It has its problems, but our country is NOT a dictatorship...even with Trump in charge. For those who think it is, I suspect living in Iran for a few weeks would rapidly change their minds.

The worst thing that can happen to us as a country is to start believing that murdering those we think are wronging us is the solution. It's not only morally reprehensible, it's stupid. There are a million other CEOs that will happily jump into the void created by Thompson's death. Does anyone honestly believe that murdering these people is eventually going to end with health insurance companies leaning more towards compassion than the bottom line?

In the words of the great philospher king Nandor the Relentless..."The fuck?"

*And yes, I'm aware I'm conflating people celebrating a man's death with a revolution. But I'm bored and really wanted to bring up "hawk tuah" and "Nandor" in a post in R&P.

[Holman]

It's hard changing a system that's existed for generations. I don't think there's any way around that.

This is where we fall for the conservative line that change is dangerous and/or impossible.

Most of "the system" fucking regular people has existed only since the 1980s. The Reagan Revolution was just that, a massive shift in the nature of society and economy that fully socialized risk and privatized profits. The 1% or maybe the 5% basically overthrew the rest of us, and we couldn't even see it because financial systems are invisible to people just getting by.

We're now at the point where, for the truly rich, the economy isn't even real. Nothing can hurt them.

In a very literal sense, money exists only for people who have to worry about money.

[hepcat]

Bringing this back around to health care (the system I was referring to) and not the broader topic of wealth distribution, here’s a great piece on the history of health insurance.

[Max Peck]

Health insurance itself is not a bad thing. Health insurance (or any kind of insurance, really) where the priority is aggressively optimizing profit at the expense of the people who are paying for insurance, well...

Now add in the myriad other ways that wealth is redistributed from the lower/middle classes to the 1%.



Anyway, the manhunt continues in New York. Of course, when you actually see it in action, you might be excused for thinking that the NYPD boots on the ground aren't super concerned about catching the guy. But, hey, who wouldn't like to be paid for a nice leisurely walk in the park with all their buddies?

https://bsky.app/profile/jphillll.bsky. ... symw2cfs2o

This Fox segment on the search for the shooter is incredible. Look at how the NYPD searches Central Park lol

[hepcat]

I honestly don't even COMPLETELY blame insurance companies. I blame the exorbitant cost of health care that forces them to run at a loss unless they aggressively try to contest claims. I'm not saying their innocent of wrong doing. They often cut backroom deals with hospital networks that are, in my layman's view, shady as hell. But at the end of the day, they're still businesses. And most businesses want to maximize profits. The problem being that their customers often suffer far more than a lighter wallet should they succeed in said maximizing.

Years ago a site was put online where you could check the cost of medical procedures by hospital. It was, to say the least, eye opening. I remember around that time I was getting a hernia mesh put in after experiencing a non emergency hernia in my lower abdomen (it's fine, I'm still a superb specimen of manly pulchritude...but now kids can trampoline off my tummy). Looking at one hospital within walking distance of my apartment in Chicago, it listed a price of around 10 grand. The same procedure at the hospital my insurance company (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) wanted me to use/would cover was almost 3 times that. Needless to say, I ended up going with the hospital that was ridiculously more expensive because by the time I paid my deductible, it was still much cheaper for me.

But yeah, it's not just health insurance that's the issue. That's why I continually use the words "health care system" in my rants.

[Smoove_B]

All I know is that if the media put as much effort and energy into every single school shooting as they are for a CEO, maybe we could have a serious talk about America's gun problem.

[Holman]

All I know is that if the media put as much effort and energy into every single school shooting as they are for a CEO, maybe we could have a serious talk about America's gun problem.

It's notable that the focus is all on the victim, not the weapon.

CEOs are all-important. Kids are expendable.

[Pyperkub]

Health insurance itself is not a bad thing. Health insurance (or any kind of insurance, really) where the priority is aggressively optimizing profit at the expense of the people who are paying for insurance, well...

Yeah, the issue is that Medical care doesn't follow supply and demand (demand is inelastic), and one additional issue (besides consolidation/monopoly in both insurance and hospitals) is that even with that demand inelasticity, prices are also not transparent. Both are huge factors in why Health Care doesn't behave like a normal competitive market, and why private markets for health care in the US are so broken.

[Pyperkub]

All I know is that if the media put as much effort and energy into every single school shooting as they are for a CEO, maybe we could have a serious talk about America's gun problem.

And Health Insurance claim denials and the human costs associated. The thousands of claim denials every day have been normalized and ignored by the media.

[LordMortis]

CEOs are all-important. Kids are expendable.

Well, public and non affluent private school kids are. Just like is anyone from "the inner city."

I also think the media, in this specific case, is reflecting public interest. We think murdering CEOs in much more worth our attention than mass murdering of children.

[Smoove_B]

And Health Insurance claim denials and the human costs associated. The thousands of claim denials every day have been normalized and ignored by the media.

Yeah, I think this is what's bothering me. The tone seems to be one of confusion - how could this happen? Are we living in a world where people just shoot CEOs now?

Completely ignoring how we arrived at this point while also willing to dismiss all the random (and intentional) violence that happens daily with guns. It's almost like there was a belief that CEOs were "untouchable" - though that's not the right word. Maybe it's just media shock over the idea that something like this could happen - it was previously unthinkable. Unlike all the school shooting now that happen daily - to the point where it's not even news.

Do we really want to live in a world where CEO's can be randomly shot?

I'm beginning to see how Cyberpunk futures emerge.

[Grifman]

I hope that the justice system steps in when someone does something wrong.

What we're seeing is that this hope is a very thin reed.

I agree that we shouldn't yet be setting up guillotines. But if those in power want to avoid The Terror, they need to do *much* more than just remind everyone that The Terror would be inappropriate.

The problem is The Terror rarely stops at its initial set of targets. It inevitably expands to include others beyond its initial scope.

[Grifman]

All I know is that if the media put as much effort and energy into every single school shooting as they are for a CEO, maybe we could have a serious talk about America's gun problem.

If this was as commonplace as school shootings it would soon drop into the background noise. Novel events always get attention. And frankly, everybody knows about school shootings, more news articles aren’t going to change a thing there. Lack of news coverage isn’t the problem.

[hepcat]

All I know is that if the media put as much effort and energy into every single school shooting as they are for a CEO, maybe we could have a serious talk about America's gun problem.

It's notable that the focus is all on the victim, not the weapon.

CEOs are all-important. Kids are expendable.

I'm not getting that impression. What I am getting is a sense of fascination with a killer that got away (so far) and the ensuing manhunt. The only focus on the victim that I'm coming across is the various claims of satisfaction in his death expressed on the internet.

In a school shooting, we always know who did it and they're in custody before the cameras can get there. So it's a faster turnaround altogether. I think that's why it seems like there's less attention to those tragedies. But I don't think they're forgotten. I mean, look at our old pal Alex Jones and you can see that attention is still on school shootings and the various scumbags that try to take advantage of them for either political or personal gain.

[Grifman]

All I know is that if the media put as much effort and energy into every single school shooting as they are for a CEO, maybe we could have a serious talk about America's gun problem.

It's notable that the focus is all on the victim, not the weapon.

CEOs are all-important. Kids are expendable.

I'm not getting that impression. What I am getting is a sense of fascination with a killer that got away (so far) and the ensuing manhunt. The only focus on the victim that I'm coming across is the various claims of satisfaction in his death expressed on the internet.

I don’t get this whole comparison to school shootings. This was a novel event, it was a public murder hitman style, with clues left on gun casings, with the hitman on the run. Of course this is going to get a lot of news coverage. It’s new and different and “exciting”. It had nothing to do with the value of executives vs school children.

[hepcat]

After the shooter is caught and his reasons exposed, I'm sure he'll also fade into the background after our next public spectacle.

[Blackhawk]

This is commentary on what I think is going on in the population's minds, not a commentary on what's right, or what we should be doing, or what the long-term effects will be. Just on why the response has been what it has been.

School shootings are beyond awful, but they've become commonplace ( .)

People have tried to make a difference for decades (Columbine was what, '99?) only to have every effort deflected and turned on it's head (Gun control? How about arming the teachers and turning classrooms into bunkers instead? Mental health? Why not armored backpacks instead?) People feel powerless and helpless in the face of the political obstruction, and after a quarter century, many don't respond to those attacks anymore, because they no longer see a useful way to respond.

This shooting, however, ties into a new narrative (for the mainstream, at least) that has peoples' attention. The killer has done something that people understand, even if they don't agree.

On top of that, a portion of the nation has turned the killer into a folk hero, V For Vendetta/Robin Hood-style. I heard that Old Navy has sold out of the jacket he wore. The fact that someone turning against the nation's abusers, against a philosophy that has hurt everyone below the top 3% is something that, for good or ill, has people's attention. It's a crime that people understand. The very nature of the folk hero response is a big news story in and of itself.

And, regardless of right or wrong, regardless of motives, this act has people talking more about a serious issue. And as they talk, it has people recognizing that it's everyone, not just their family who are affected. So, in the end, it may actually be effective at bringing change (unlikely - at best we'll get doublespeak promises of reform that won't amount to anything.)

Again, this post isn't about whether the guy was in the right. It's about how people are reacting.

[LordMortis]

People (and the media that wants their engagement and for them to consume) can be pretty much beyond my comprehension WRT canonizing killers. For the Boston Marathon bombers a whole phenomena went on about how attractive they were. That happened again for another murderous group a couple years later but only for one of them. I can't remember the specifics. Only that they were African American but one of them had very soft features and icy blue eyes. Then we get the Rittenhouses and the Stand Your Ground guy in Florida.

[Grifman]

I should note, it’s easy to blame the media, but in many cases they are responding to us. If people weren’t interested the media would not be spending time on this. In the, like in most things, it comes back to us.

[Holman]

I hope that the justice system steps in when someone does something wrong.

What we're seeing is that this hope is a very thin reed.

I agree that we shouldn't yet be setting up guillotines. But if those in power want to avoid The Terror, they need to do *much* more than just remind everyone that The Terror would be inappropriate.

The problem is The Terror rarely stops at its initial set of targets. It inevitably expands to include others beyond its initial scope.

There are lots of problems with The Terror. I'm definitely not pro-The Terror.

I'm saying we should be doing things that prevent The Terror.

[hepcat]

Well, they're SAYING they caught him. Looks like a guy angry with corporate America, but we'll get more info soon, I'm sure.

The only other person in the office today is my Trump supporting coworker. She's been tossing out conspiracy theories all morning. Every time something changes in the story that goes against her favorite conspiracy theory, I goad her into creating a new one. Right now she's focused on a "gay lover". I have zero clue what the fuck that even means in this context, other than that she's a raging homophobe apparently.

[gilraen]

People are also talking about the NYPD response to the shooting where there's only one victim, and the shooter is most likely not a danger to anyone else. But because this is such a high-profile crime, the police is throwing everything and a kitchen sink at this manhunt. They've now spent 3 days just dredging the pond in Central Park. So naturally, that prompts a question - how many other crimes will probably go cold and unsolved because everyone is too busy trying to solve the murder of one rich white guy.

[GreenGoo]

Well, they're SAYING they caught him. Looks like a guy angry with corporate America, but we'll get more info soon, I'm sure.

The only other person in the office today is my Trump supporting coworker. She's been tossing out conspiracy theories all morning. Every time something changes in the story that goes against her favorite conspiracy theory, I goad her into creating a new one. Right now she's focused on a "gay lover". I have zero clue what the fuck that even means in this context, other than that she's a raging homophobe apparently.

She is literally creating a hostile work environment, and has been for a long time. She needs to stfu because she is toxic, and it has nothing to do with her politics.

[hepcat]

To be fair, I did say I'm goading her. She normally keeps this shit to herself as she knows I will disagree with her, which pisses her off. But when it's just her and I in the office, I sometimes put on my evil hat so I can see where she goes.

And she can be sweet and nice when it comes to everything but politics/culture war. She does supply me with my beloved banana bread on occasion.

So yeah, shitty outlook on politics and culture, but thankfully she knows to keep it to herself most of the time. I'm just immature enough to enjoy lighting the match from time to time.

[Grifman]

Valedictorian and ex-Ivy League:

[Isgrimnur]

Spoiler:

https://bsky.app/profile/coreyryung.bsk ... vhdaqtks2o

[Holman]

2020 Penn graduate.

My wife is in Penn advising but says she never met him.

[Victoria Raverna]

All I know is that if the media put as much effort and energy into every single school shooting as they are for a CEO, maybe we could have a serious talk about America's gun problem.

It's notable that the focus is all on the victim, not the weapon.

CEOs are all-important. Kids are expendable.

I'm not getting that impression. What I am getting is a sense of fascination with a killer that got away (so far) and the ensuing manhunt. The only focus on the victim that I'm coming across is the various claims of satisfaction in his death expressed on the internet.

I don’t get this whole comparison to school shootings. This was a novel event, it was a public murder hitman style, with clues left on gun casings, with the hitman on the run. Of course this is going to get a lot of news coverage. It’s new and different and “exciting”. It had nothing to do with the value of executives vs school children.

Agree. School shootings are so common that they're not interesting to be reported on news. Compare to that, this is more interesting.

[Victoria Raverna]

[Kraken]

That's my Senator.

[gbasden]

The choices he made caused untold suffering to a large number of people. Of this there is no doubt.

[Kraken]

The choices he made caused untold suffering to a large number of people. Of this there is no doubt.

Aye, the doubt enters when you ask if murder is a justified response. Wife and I disagree on this, and I have to concede the moral high ground. I only just realized that I've tipped into the pitchforks and guillotines camp.

[LawBeefaroni]

As someone who has negotiated, and is currently in the middle of major negotiations with, United, most of the claims are true. But it's a corporate culture and company mandate, not the decision of one man. It was that way before Thompson and will likely continue after him.

Maybe this is a wakeup call but I'm skeptical. I mean we just voted in an administration that has promised to UHC-ify Medicare.

[LawBeefaroni]

Mangione was arrested and charged last night.

[LordMortis]

Maybe this is a wakeup call but I'm skeptical. I mean we just voted in an administration that has promised to UHC-ify Medicare.

^^^^
That. Also CEOs of public companies are generally beholden to "the board" and the board tends to be the will of the largest owners preferred stock holders to say nothing of hedge funds and banks. Occupy didn't last while Palin's America flourished. That ought to tell us about waking up and waking up from tragedy? Our endemic school shootings tell me everything I need to know about that.

[Max Peck]

Maybe this is a wakeup call but I'm skeptical. I mean we just voted in an administration that has promised to UHC-ify Medicare.

Well, yeah, but how many of the people who voted MAGA actually grok that. They largely seem to believe that Trump will abolish Obamacare and fix the ACA -- they just don't understand how any of that stuff works, even at the basic level of knowing that Obamacare is just a political label for the ACA.

[Max Peck]

Some words from Robert Evans (I expect a UHC Behind the Bastards, Robert)...

Alleged CEO Shooter Luigi Mangione Was Radicalized by Pain

I’ve spent much of the last ten years reading manifestos and being a fly on the wall in different little online boltholes where extremists plan and seek to incite mass shootings. When Luigi Mangione, the suspected shooter of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was arrested at a McDonald’s, it didn’t take long for digital sleuths to put together a comprehensive record of his online activity. I will tell you now that nothing he read or posted explains why he gunned down an insurance executive better than this single image in the background of his Twitter profile:

X-ray of a person's back Description automatically generated

This is an X-ray showing four screws in someone’s lower base spine, apparently due to lumbar spinal fusion surgery. A reverse image search confirms that this is a representative example of someone who has gone through this surgery. It does not seem to show this exact picture being posted elsewhere before Luigi went viral. That does suggest may be his own x-ray.

In the wake of this shooting every media organization commenting on it has had to grapple with the waves of public enthusiasm for Luigi’s actions. Right-wing media figures condemning the left for celebrating this assassination have been criticized by their own readers and listeners. Insurance companies have pulled down lists of their executives from the Internet.

This is because they too understand the shooter culture of the United States. Like anyone else, they know that any mass shooting that meets with massive media coverage and interest will spawn copycats. The assassination Luigi is believed to have carried out was new and exciting; it demanded the public’s attention in a way most mass shootings don’t.

At almost the exact same time the United Healthcare CEO was assassinated, a gunman walked into a religious school near Oroville California and shot two young children before killing himself. This shooting drew almost no national attention. It was entirely drowned out by the execution of an insurance industry CEO. The armed and disaffected young men who are most drawn to this sort of thing will not miss this fact.

I believe Luigi Mangione was radicalized by pain. The shooters who follow him will all have their own reasons for what they do, their own journeys to that violent end. But ultimately, they’ll do what they’ll do because Luigi proved it’s what gets attention.

For now.

[Smoove_B]

I don’t get this whole comparison to school shootings. This was a novel event, it was a public murder hitman style, with clues left on gun casings, with the hitman on the run. Of course this is going to get a lot of news coverage. It’s new and different and “exciting”. It had nothing to do with the value of executives vs school children.

Ok, here's another one - another novel event. How much do we now know about this shooter vs the one that attempted to kill President Elect Trump in PA?

I totally get that it's "new and exciting", but put me in the camp of people that believes the narrative coming out of this has been weird.

To be clear, I'm not claiming a conspiracy on the CEO (or Trump assassin) situation, it's really just a stark reminder (to me) of what how the media farms clicks and eyeballs.