I’ve spent much of the last ten years reading manifestos and being a fly on the wall in different little online boltholes where extremists plan and seek to incite mass shootings. When Luigi Mangione, the suspected shooter of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was arrested at a McDonald’s, it didn’t take long for digital sleuths to put together a comprehensive record of his online activity. I will tell you now that nothing he read or posted explains why he gunned down an insurance executive better than this single image in the background of his Twitter profile:
X-ray of a person's back Description automatically generated
This is an X-ray showing four screws in someone’s lower base spine, apparently due to lumbar spinal fusion surgery. A reverse image search confirms that this is a representative example of someone who has gone through this surgery. It does not seem to show this exact picture being posted elsewhere before Luigi went viral. That does suggest may be his own x-ray.
In the wake of this shooting every media organization commenting on it has had to grapple with the waves of public enthusiasm for Luigi’s actions. Right-wing media figures condemning the left for celebrating this assassination have been criticized by their own readers and listeners. Insurance companies have pulled down lists of their executives from the Internet.
This is because they too understand the shooter culture of the United States. Like anyone else, they know that any mass shooting that meets with massive media coverage and interest will spawn copycats. The assassination Luigi is believed to have carried out was new and exciting; it demanded the public’s attention in a way most mass shootings don’t.
At almost the exact same time the United Healthcare CEO was assassinated, a gunman walked into a religious school near Oroville California and shot two young children before killing himself. This shooting drew almost no national attention. It was entirely drowned out by the execution of an insurance industry CEO. The armed and disaffected young men who are most drawn to this sort of thing will not miss this fact.
I believe Luigi Mangione was radicalized by pain. The shooters who follow him will all have their own reasons for what they do, their own journeys to that violent end. But ultimately, they’ll do what they’ll do because Luigi proved it’s what gets attention.
For now.
I know a lot of people who have suffered a lot of chronic, physical pain. None of them would think to use it as an excuse to murder someone.
And I don't think Evans is using it as an excuse above but I think it should be explicitly stated.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 8:05 pm
I know a lot of people who have suffered a lot of chronic, physical pain. None of them would think to use it as an excuse to murder someone.
And I don't think Evans is using it as an excuse above but I think it should be explicitly stated.
Does it really need to be stated, though? Every murder has a motive, and every motive is something that the vast majority people wouldn't use as an excuse to murder someone.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 8:05 pm
I know a lot of people who have suffered a lot of chronic, physical pain. None of them would think to use it as an excuse to murder someone.
And I don't think Evans is using it as an excuse above but I think it should be explicitly stated.
Does it really need to be stated, though? Every murder has a motive, and every motive is something that the vast majority people wouldn't use as an excuse to murder someone.
Motive does not equal excuse (or justification). Motive is why, not why it's OK.
This guy is being hailed as a hero in a lot more more than the usual circles and I think it's important not to pile on the justifications.
I assume the Rolling Stone cover is being worked on as we speak.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 8:05 pm
I know a lot of people who have suffered a lot of chronic, physical pain. None of them would think to use it as an excuse to murder someone.
And I don't think Evans is using it as an excuse above but I think it should be explicitly stated.
Does it really need to be stated, though? Every murder has a motive, and every motive is something that the vast majority people wouldn't use as an excuse to murder someone.
Motive does not equal excuse (or justification). Motive is why, not why it's OK.
This guy is being hailed as a hero in a lot more more than the usual circles and I think it's important not to pile on the justifications.
Did Evans hail him as a hero? Did Evans say that the murder was OK? Did I?
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Saying that chronic pain made him into what he is does not equal excuse (or justification). Chronic pain is why, not why it's OK.
But unlike some people here who are very lawful good or lawful netral, I think it is okay to kill someone choose to directly or indirectly caused death to countless others. But the problem is that people can also use the same reasoning to justify killing doctors who help women get abortion.
The problem with vigilante murder being seen as a legitimate choice is that it would give that choice to everyone. There are a few people who might have enough wisdom to have that authority, but the masses definitely do not.
Would you look sympathetically upon the murderers of Emmet Till, the Chicago Tylenol Poisoner or The Son of Sam because of the good that arose after their deadly acts? Even if the outcome changes things for the better, you shouldn’t see their acts as anything but wrong.
Of course I know you wouldn’t be sympathetic. I just wanted to point out that good will sometimes arise as the result of bad.
As for the belief some out there have that he was acting for the good of our country, history is littered with the bodies of those who died when someone believed they were doing the right thing. Luigi apparently liked the Ted Kaczynsk manifesto, for crying’ out loud.
Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 9:13 pm
But unlike some people here who are very lawful good or lawful netral, I think it is okay to kill someone choose to directly or indirectly caused death to countless others.
What if it’s a whole bunch of people you feel have been unjustly killing your people in terrorists acts? And what if THAT group also wants vengeance? Are both sides okay?
Holman wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:50 pm
What if the single crime doesn't set off a wave of crimes but a wave of public awareness and attention to the systematic economic injustice?
One, so the ends justifies the means? Secondly, you can’t know this ahead of time. It is just as likely to inspire a series of copycat crimes. I also think we should try to limit the amount of times we have do bad things in order to achieve good things.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Holman wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:50 pm
What if the single crime doesn't set off a wave of crimes but a wave of public awareness and attention to the systematic economic injustice?
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 8:05 pm
I know a lot of people who have suffered a lot of chronic, physical pain. None of them would think to use it as an excuse to murder someone.
And I don't think Evans is using it as an excuse above but I think it should be explicitly stated.
Does it really need to be stated, though? Every murder has a motive, and every motive is something that the vast majority people wouldn't use as an excuse to murder someone.
Motive does not equal excuse (or justification). Motive is why, not why it's OK.
This guy is being hailed as a hero in a lot more more than the usual circles and I think it's important not to pile on the justifications.
Did Evans hail him as a hero? Did Evans say that the murder was OK? Did I?
Did I ever say Evans or you hailed him as a hero? Seems like you're putting words into my mouth to accuse me of putting words into your mouth.
What I was saying is that there are a lot of people hailing this guy as a hero and we (you, me, Evans) need to be careful not to try to hand them justifications for their hero worship, as inadvertent as we may be.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
LawBeefaroni wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 10:52 am
Did I ever say Evans or you hailed him as a hero? Seems like you're putting words into my mouth to accuse me of putting words into your mouth.
What I was saying is that there are a lot of people hailing this guy as a hero and we (you, me, Evans) need to be careful not to try to hand them justifications for their hero worship, as inadvertent as we may be.
You posted it as a reply, which I took to mean that you were responding to something in the post and I couldn't understand what, in that post, provoked that response. I was not trying to put words in your, or anyone else's, mouth. I was just trying to figure out why you were making that point in that context. Clearly I should have just shrugged it off and let it go.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Luigi Mangione, who was arrested and charged with murder in the shooting death of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, once belonged to a group of Ivy League gamers who played assassins, a member of the group told NBC News.
In the game, called "Among Us," some players are secretly assigned to be killers in space who perform other tasks while trying to avoid suspicion from other players.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Luigi Mangione, who was arrested and charged with murder in the shooting death of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, once belonged to a group of Ivy League gamers who played assassins, a member of the group told NBC News.
In the game, called "Among Us," some players are secretly assigned to be killers in space who perform other tasks while trying to avoid suspicion from other players.
Omfglol. I hate this timeline so much...
Where's the "good samaritan who saved several people wounded during shooting found to have played healer in mmo WoW, which is probably why he had the "save everyone" mindset. Or better yet, good samaritan found to consistently reach top 5 in team fortress 2! What a conundrum!
Investigators reportedly believe the firearm is a BT Station Six 9, a weapon which is marketed as tracing its roots back to pistols used by Second World War-era Allied special operations forces.
Assuming this is correct, it means that the shooter wasn't clearing a jam, they were simply operating the bolt.
UnitedHealthcare CEO killing latest: Luigi Mangione's gun matches shell casings from crime scene, NYPD says
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
I wonder why he kept to the gun. He certainly had plenty of time to get rid of it, and he doesn't seem to have had any interest in shooting it out with the police or anything like that. In some ways, it seems like he planned everything out up to the point of escaping the city, then had nothing beyond that point. Maybe he just never expected to get away in the first place.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
Holman wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:50 pm
What if the single crime doesn't set off a wave of crimes but a wave of public awareness and attention to the systematic economic injustice?
One, so the ends justifies the means?
This is a gross mischaracterization of what I said. I'm talking about the possible result of the crime that has already happened, not endorsing new crimes.
Luigi Mangione, who was arrested and charged with murder in the shooting death of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, once belonged to a group of Ivy League gamers who played assassins, a member of the group told NBC News.
In the game, called "Among Us," some players are secretly assigned to be killers in space who perform other tasks while trying to avoid suspicion from other players.
I started reading thinking they were going to say Hitman 3 but among us…
Max Peck wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:02 pm
I wonder why he kept to the gun. He certainly had plenty of time to get rid of it, and he doesn't seem to have had any interest in shooting it out with the police or anything like that. In some ways, it seems like he planned everything out up to the point of escaping the city, then had nothing beyond that point. Maybe he just never expected to get away in the first place.
It's possible this guy was not the criminal mastermind that many people suspected during the initial stages of the manhunt.
Max Peck wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:02 pm
I wonder why he kept to the gun. He certainly had plenty of time to get rid of it, and he doesn't seem to have had any interest in shooting it out with the police or anything like that. In some ways, it seems like he planned everything out up to the point of escaping the city, then had nothing beyond that point. Maybe he just never expected to get away in the first place.
It's possible this guy was not the criminal mastermind that many people suspected during the initial stages of the manhunt.
It doesn't really take much. A bit planning, a bit of luck and the nerve to follow through. They guy who shot at Trump got flustered. This guy didn't.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Max Peck wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:02 pm
I wonder why he kept to the gun. He certainly had plenty of time to get rid of it, and he doesn't seem to have had any interest in shooting it out with the police or anything like that. In some ways, it seems like he planned everything out up to the point of escaping the city, then had nothing beyond that point. Maybe he just never expected to get away in the first place.
It's possible this guy was not the criminal mastermind that many people suspected during the initial stages of the manhunt.
He eluded electronic surveillance quite expertly. They only found him through a random F2F interaction, when he showed his face at a McDonalds.
Max Peck wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:02 pm
I wonder why he kept to the gun. He certainly had plenty of time to get rid of it, and he doesn't seem to have had any interest in shooting it out with the police or anything like that. In some ways, it seems like he planned everything out up to the point of escaping the city, then had nothing beyond that point. Maybe he just never expected to get away in the first place.
It's possible this guy was not the criminal mastermind that many people suspected during the initial stages of the manhunt.
He eluded electronic surveillance quite expertly. They only found him through a random F2F interaction, when he showed his face at a McDonalds.
So is your argument that he is, in fact, a criminal mastermind?
A mastermind would have gone to ground in a prepared bolthole and waited out the initial intensive manhunt, maybe grown a beard and plucked his eyebrows to change his appearance just enough that he didn't quite look like the guy that couldn't resist flirting with the girl at the hostel. He'd have broken down his 3D-printed gun and dumped the parts where nobody would find them. He'd have ditched his fake ID or switched to a new one. A mastermind would have done a D. B. Cooper and scarpered off into legend.
This guy kept the gun, kept the fake ID he'd used in NYC, allegedly had a short written statement on him essentially copping to the crime and was just hanging out in a restaurant when they scooped him up. It's like he had a plan to commit the murder and get away from the scene and out of the city, but nothing after that. It's like he wound down and stopped, not having any idea what to do next.
Or maybe he is a mastermind and he wants to have his Arthur Fleck moment in court. I guess we'll see. But it wouldn't be my bet at this point.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
He wanted to be caught. He wants to make a statement and is banking on a Ny jury acquiting him Dick wolf style.
This is a guy with crippling back problems who is well off yet can’t get insurance coverage for his illness. Back pain changes people. It drives you mad over time.
We saw with Sharon Doherty even the very rich with low eight figure bank accounts can be wiped out by medical expenses once limits are reached or coverage is no longer renewed.
Max Peck wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 6:49 pm
A mastermind would have gone to ground in a prepared bolthole and waited out the initial intensive manhunt, maybe grown a beard and plucked his eyebrows to change his appearance just enough that he didn't quite look like the guy that couldn't resist flirting with the girl at the hostel. He'd have broken down his 3D-printed gun and dumped the parts where nobody would find them. He'd have ditched his fake ID or switched to a new one. A mastermind would have done a D. B. Cooper and scarpered off into legend.
This guy kept the gun, kept the fake ID he'd used in NYC, allegedly had a short written statement on him essentially copping to the crime and was just hanging out in a restaurant when they scooped him up. It's like he had a plan to commit the murder and get away from the scene and out of the city, but nothing after that. It's like he wound down and stopped, not having any idea what to do next.
This sounds suspiciously like someone speaking from experience. WHERE IS THE LINDBERGH BABY, YOU BASTARD!?
The conspiracy theories on Twitter about this whole situation are wild, as one might expect in 2024. From people claiming there's no way he's the killer due to their "forensic picture comparisons" to saying police planted the evidence.
There's also a bunch of women (and men) totally horny for him, and plenty of people praising him for taking care of a "mass murderer".
It's time to bifurcate the crime from the larger issue of the burden of health insurance.
Yes, a guy who committed murder is a murderer who should be punished for murder.
But his actions have legitimately highlighted the fact that American health care is a burden most of us can barely bear. Nothing about the murderer's guilt changes that. If it is later revealed that Luigi Whoever also tortured puppies and burned down Notre Dame, the anger and resentment of Americans against our health insurance industry stands on its own.
To say that the killing has shown a bright light on this problem in no way excuses the killing.
Likewise, disgust at a violent crime shouldn't obscure the larger issue to which people are responding.
Holman wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:26 pm
It's time to bifurcate the crime from the larger issue of the burden of health insurance.
Yes, a guy who committed murder is a murderer who should be punished for murder.
But his actions have legitimately highlighted the fact that American health care is a burden most of us can barely bear.
Has it though? I feel like I’m seemg people angry at rich people, not the broken health care system. I fear this is becoming an act of class warfare in many eyes.
Holman wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:26 pm
It's time to bifurcate the crime from the larger issue of the burden of health insurance.
Yes, a guy who committed murder is a murderer who should be punished for murder.
But his actions have legitimately highlighted the fact that American health care is a burden most of us can barely bear.
Has it though? I feel like I’m seemg people angry at rich people, not the broken health care system. I fear this is becoming an act of class warfare in many eyes.
I'm seeing people angry at a broken health care system. Even MSM headlines are touching on it.
As Lawbeef noted earlier, they’re writing Kill Your CEO on walls, not Fix Healthcare. In NY, they’re posting wanted posters for CEOs….and not just health care CEOs. Any hint of corporate greed is rapidly becoming the target, not just a broken health care system. They’re not targeting an institution that needs to be fixed, they’re calling for the heads of people.
Max Peck wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 5:02 pm
I wonder why he kept to the gun. He certainly had plenty of time to get rid of it, and he doesn't seem to have had any interest in shooting it out with the police or anything like that. In some ways, it seems like he planned everything out up to the point of escaping the city, then had nothing beyond that point. Maybe he just never expected to get away in the first place.
It's possible this guy was not the criminal mastermind that many people suspected during the initial stages of the manhunt.
He eluded electronic surveillance quite expertly. They only found him through a random F2F interaction, when he showed his face at a McDonalds.
So is your argument that he is, in fact, a criminal mastermind?
Just that he's tech-savvy. Not many of us could outwit the surveillance state, as this fellow did for several days. Max laid out how his plan broke down after the initial escape. It's almost like he knew how to disappear electronically, but not physically.
hepcat wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:17 pm
As Lawbeef noted earlier, they’re writing Kill Your CEO on walls, not Fix Healthcare. In NY, they’re posting wanted posters for CEOs….and not just health care CEOs. Any hint of corporate greed is rapidly becoming the target, not just a broken health care system. They’re not targeting an institution that needs to be fixed, they’re calling for the heads of people.
Is graffiti production a reliable indicator of public opinion?
Do you really think more people want to kill CEOs than want to reform health care?
A lot of people have wanted to fix health care in this country for a long time. Hence ACA and other things. It’s been slow and it’s been frustrating and it’s still broken. A large number of people raising their voices now in response to (and in a frightening number of cases-including one of our own, support of) the shooting are reactionary and are looking at violence against CEOs as the solution.
So yes, I do fear that this is less about the health care industry in this country and more about, as LM mentioned earlier, Eat the Rich for a large number of people.
I think this shooting and the response to it showed that Americans are united in their view that the healthcare is broken. Hopefully that is enough to push for a change. Just because US is a capitalist country doesn't mean you can't have a socialist solution for healthcare. Not everything has to be profit oriented.
Holman wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:26 pm
It's time to bifurcate the crime from the larger issue of the burden of health insurance.
Yes, a guy who committed murder is a murderer who should be punished for murder.
But his actions have legitimately highlighted the fact that American health care is a burden most of us can barely bear. Nothing about the murderer's guilt changes that. If it is later revealed that Luigi Whoever also tortured puppies and burned down Notre Dame, the anger and resentment of Americans against our health insurance industry stands on its own.
To say that the killing has shown a bright light on this problem in no way excuses the killing.
Likewise, disgust at a violent crime shouldn't obscure the larger issue to which people are responding.
And one can simultaneously not approve of extra-judicial killing and also not be sad that perhaps a CEO might think twice about letting people die to wring a few more dollars of profit from the system.
Victoria Raverna wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 10:55 pm
I think this shooting and the response to it showed that Americans are united in their view that the healthcare is broken. Hopefully that is enough to push for a change. Just because US is a capitalist country doesn't mean you can't have a socialist solution for healthcare. Not everything has to be profit oriented.
The care system itself -- practitioners, facilities, equipment, etc. -- is mostly fine. Access to it, and paying for same, are the core problems. As long as gatekeepers are for-profit businesses, their emphasis will be on maximizing revenue and reducing costs. That's Capitalism 101. The remedy is obvious and simple -- remove the profit motive from the payment system. You know, the way every other advanced country has done. Turning financing over to government or a quasi-independent nonprofit entity has the bonus effect of severing insurance from employment, which is another huge barrier to access. Like I said, this is intuitive and easy to explain in a couple of sentences. It's also politically impossible. Approximately half of the US population thinks socialism is the devil, and that half is now in charge.
Consider their opinion of Obamacare (nee Romneycare -- originally a Republican model in MA before Obama nationalized it). It enshrines for-profit insurance companies in law while putting some shackles on them. It's a fundamentally capitalist approach. And yet the right calls it socialized medicine and wants to tear it down because some people are getting care that they didn't pay for.
You'll find widespread agreement that health care is broken, as you said, but rabid disagreement over why.
