hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:02 pm
Si you believe UHC is the only player in the current Healthcare system? And that Brian Thompson was the only person in UHC taking advantage of the legally available tools to maximize profits that a broken Healthcare system provides?
Oh, right. UHC doesn't matter. They're tiny. And the CEO doesn't control anything.
UnitedHealth Group, a U.S. healthcare insurance company, reported total revenues of around 359 billion U.S. dollars in 2023. It is among the world’s ten largest companies in general and has an estimated 439,000 employees. UnitedHealthcare is an operating division of UnitedHealth Group, the largest single health carrier in the United States. The company's market capitalization is $559.88 billion.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:12 pm
by hepcat
You responded to my post pointing out they're not the only offender by disagreeing with me. It's only natural to see that as a misguided belief that they're the only component that matters in a broken health care system.
Of course they matter. But so does every component in this broken system.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:18 pm
by gbasden
They show by many metrics that they are the worst offender at denying care, are being sued for it, and are the single largest insurer in our broken health system. It's not like they are unimportant. Boeing doesn't make all of the airliners in the world, but discussing what's wrong with air travel would necessarily have to include them.
And no, it's not only natural to assume because I think UHC is a predacious company that is run in a sociopathic manner that I'm unaware that there are many other problems in our health care system. That's ridiculous.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:19 pm
by hepcat
It's also ridiculous to take away from my post that I'm giving a free pass to Brian Thompson. I was simply pointing out it's a systemic issue at its core.
Unless you thought I was stating Brian Thomoson controls the entire health care industry, I don't see how you would think I thought he wasn't guilty of greedy behavior resulting in damaging effects. But sociopathic? He's Gordon Gecko, not Patrick Bateman.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:26 pm
by gbasden
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:19 pm
It's also ridiculous to take away from my post that I'm giving a free pass to Brian Thompson. I was simply pointing out it's a systemic issue at its core.
Unless you thought I was stating Brian Thomoson controls the entire health care industry, I don't see how you would think I thought he wasn't guilty of greedy behavior.
Perhaps in your (understandably) zealous denunciation of the shooting I came away with the mistaken impression that you also believed that Thompson was doing nothing wrong. My apologies if I misread you. It is absolutely a systemic issue with for-profit health care that there are incentives to increase profit at the cost of patient's health and sometimes lives. Some companies and CEOs push that much farther than others.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:28 pm
by hepcat
He's a part of a system I've said is broken for as long as I can remember. But it's a system you can't fix through murdering heads of all the broken components.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:29 pm
by Max Peck
If shooting people is not the solution for fixing healthcare (or all of late stage capitalism, for that matter) then perhaps it would be helpful to discuss the problems with healthcare et al in a suitable topic instead of the one where we are accustomed to discussing horrible people who shoot people who are usually not in any way nearly so horrible themselves.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:32 pm
by gbasden
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:19 pm
But sociopathic? He's Gordon Gecko, not Patrick Bateman.
UnitedHealthcare, the largest health insurance company in the US, is allegedly using a deeply flawed AI algorithm to override doctors' judgments and wrongfully deny critical health coverage to elderly patients. This has resulted in patients being kicked out of rehabilitation programs and care facilities far too early, forcing them to drain their life savings to obtain needed care that should be covered under their government-funded Medicare Advantage Plan.
...
The lawsuit argues that UnitedHealth should have been well aware of the "blatant inaccuracy" of nH Predict's estimates based on its error rate. Though few patients appeal coverage denials generally, when UnitedHealth members appeal denials based on nH Predict estimates—through internal appeals processes or through the federal Administrative Law Judge proceedings—over 90 percent of the denials are reversed, the lawsuit claims. This makes it obvious that the algorithm is wrongly denying coverage, it argues.
But, instead of changing course, over the last two years, NaviHealth employees have been told to hew closer and closer to the algorithm's predictions. In 2022, case managers were told to keep patients' stays in nursing homes to within 3 percent of the days projected by the algorithm, according to documents obtained by Stat. In 2023, the target was narrowed to 1 percent.
And these aren't just recommendations for NaviHealth case managers—they're requirements. Case managers who fall outside the length-of-stay target face discipline or firing. Lynch, for instance, told Stat she was fired for not making the length-of-stay target, as well as falling behind on filing documentation for her daily caseloads.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:33 pm
by hepcat
Really. Thompson answered to a board. Seems like a large group of clinically diagnosed sociopaths would have registered with people at some point.
He was part of a greedy business with the potential for true harm.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:37 pm
by gbasden
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:28 pm
He's a part of a system I've said is broken for as long as I can remember. But it's a system you can't fix through murdering heads of all the broken components.
The irony is that it's not true, and we saw it immediately after the shooting. Anthem walked back their awful decision to not cover anesthesia for surgeries that went over time immediately after Thompson was shot. I don't believe that murdering healthcare CEOs is in any way the right way to affect change, but it certainly did have some impact.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:39 pm
by gbasden
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:33 pm
Really. Thompson answered to a board. Seems like a large group of clinically diagnosed sociopaths would have registered with people at some point.
He was part of a greedy business with the potential for true harm.
A sociopath is someone who lives with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), a condition that involves disregard for others, lack of empathy, and dishonest behavior.
Sure. I can totally see how that doesn't fit.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:39 pm
by hepcat
Emmitt Till's murder resulted in some good thing in the realm of civil rights. I refuse to argue the murder was a good thing in the end though.
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:33 pm
Really. Thompson answered to a board. Seems like a large group of clinically diagnosed sociopaths would have registered with people at some point.
He was part of a greedy business with the potential for true harm.
A sociopath is someone who lives with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), a condition that involves disregard for others, lack of empathy, and dishonest behavior.
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:33 pm
Really. Thompson answered to a board. Seems like a large group of clinically diagnosed sociopaths would have registered with people at some point.
He was part of a greedy business with the potential for true harm.
A sociopath is someone who lives with antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), a condition that involves disregard for others, lack of empathy, and dishonest behavior.
Sure. I can totally see how that doesn't fit.
You would if you were versed in mental health.
As an IT person who is totally not a psychiatrist, assume I'm using the term colloquially. Just like I can call Trump a narcissist without a clinical diagnosis.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:46 pm
by hepcat
Let's simplify this:
I've said health care is broken and needs fixed. I've said Thompson was part of that broken system (a shitty person in other words), but hardly the only one. I've said he was operating within the legal bounds of a broken system. I've also said murdering people that are involved in that broken system is wrong. What part do you disagree with?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 2:02 pm
by LordMortis
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:46 pm
I've said he was operating within the legal bounds of a broken system.
As a side note (we need more of these in a shootings thread, right) I hate this. The legal bounds for my entire lifetime have been largely decided by donations from and think tanks of the system breakers and to my untrained eye, insurance are the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd biggest donator and think tank influence of them all, right there with energy production and finance (and finance and insurance seems to intermingle a lot). Or at least they were until the Tech Bros who have lost cabin pressure when it comes to wealth rose in the last decade.
This influence gives rise to the Drazzils and VRs and makes me sympathize with them, no matter how much I may not see eye to eye.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 2:10 pm
by hepcat
I hate it too. It needs to be fixed. Otherwise shitty people will always find their way to it. And we'll run out of good people before shitty ones, I'm sorry to say.
I've said health care is broken and needs fixed. I've said Thompson was part of that broken system (a shitty person in other words), but hardly the only one. I've said he was operating within the legal bounds of a broken system. I've also said murdering people that are involved in that broken system is wrong. What part do you disagree with?
I don't disagree with any of it. I simply believe that as insurance companies exploit our broken system to get greater profits from the pain and suffering of their customers that we will see more and more people like Mr. Mangioni taking revenge into their own hands. And unlike Emmett Till, these CEOs are not innocents. It's one more sign of the pressures of the failing system.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 2:42 pm
by hepcat
The vile people who murdered Emmitt Till believed they were doing the right thing. They obviously weren't, but it goes to show how dangerous believing murder is your only option, even when you believe you're right, is.
I also think we're going to be seeing mental health issues come up in the case of Mangione.
P.S. health insurance is only one part of the broken system.
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:28 pm
He's a part of a system I've said is broken for as long as I can remember. But it's a system you can't fix through murdering heads of all the broken components.
The irony is that it's not true, and we saw it immediately after the shooting. Anthem walked back their awful decision to not cover anesthesia for surgeries that went over time immediately after Thompson was shot. I don't believe that murdering healthcare CEOs is in any way the right way to affect change, but it certainly did have some impact.
Unless someone has leaked some internal communication linking the decision to the shooting, we don't know that the decision was made for that reason. Correlation is not causation.
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 1:28 pm
He's a part of a system I've said is broken for as long as I can remember. But it's a system you can't fix through murdering heads of all the broken components.
The irony is that it's not true, and we saw it immediately after the shooting. Anthem walked back their awful decision to not cover anesthesia for surgeries that went over time immediately after Thompson was shot. I don't believe that murdering healthcare CEOs is in any way the right way to affect change, but it certainly did have some impact.
Unless someone has leaked some internal communication linking the decision to the shooting, we don't know that the decision was made for that reason. Correlation is not causation.
For sure. It could be a coincidence - there was a lot of pushback from doctors as well. But the shooting focused a lot of attention on the issue.
But the backlash gained momentum this week after the fatal shooting of an executive at UnitedHealthcare cast a new spotlight on the health insurance industry.
As news spread across social media, politicians in affected states began voicing their outrage.
“This is appalling. Saddling patients with thousands of dollars in surprise additional medical debt. And for what? Just to boost corporate profits?” Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) wrote in a post on social platform X. “Reverse this decision immediately.”
“What are they supposed to do? Wake you up and ask if they should keep going” Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.) wrote on X.
New York Gov. Kathy Hochul (D) also protested, saying Wednesday on X she was “going to make sure New Yorkers are protected.”
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 4:05 pm
by GreenGoo
Shooting or stabbing people is the default method humans use to effect change. It's literally what we do and have done for 10,000 years.
Arguing that it is not effective seems to fly in the face of history.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 4:59 pm
by hepcat
In the old days, systems were often one person/one group you could target and get a positive outcome for your side by eliminating that person/group. Nowadays systems are far, far larger; encompassing multiple states -if not countries- at times. I think that makes violence as a solution less effective than many think it can be. At least on a scale that doesn't result in the loss of innocent bystander's lives.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 5:27 pm
by GreenGoo
Default. Method.
We live in a rarified time and place.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:01 pm
by hepcat
It's not nearly as effective anymore..nor has it been for a long time. That's my point. If you'd written that arguing against a natural inclination to violence to solve our problems flies in the face of history, I'd have agreed. But saying we can't argue against its effectiveness? Not so much.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:41 pm
by Blackhawk
I'm not even sure what point we're arguing about anymore.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 10:47 pm
by Victoria Raverna
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:01 pm
It's not nearly as effective anymore..nor has it been for a long time. That's my point. If you'd written that arguing against a natural inclination to violence to solve our problems flies in the face of history, I'd have agreed. But saying we can't argue against its effectiveness? Not so much.
It is effective to get the public to focus on the problem. Now we don't know how long this is going to last but even WSJ reporting on problem with health insurance company:
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 10:57 pm
by Victoria Raverna
A Florida woman got arrested for allegedly said: "Delay, deny, depose. You people are next."
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:01 pm
It's not nearly as effective anymore..nor has it been for a long time. That's my point. If you'd written that arguing against a natural inclination to violence to solve our problems flies in the face of history, I'd have agreed. But saying we can't argue against its effectiveness? Not so much.
It is effective to get the public to focus on the problem. Now we don't know how long this is going to last but even WSJ reporting on problem with health insurance company:
You act as if WSJ and other news media hasn’t reported on our health care system and its problems before. A 5 second google search proves that is not the case. If I spend 10 seconds I’m sure I could quadruple that amount of articles written prior to the shooting. Our health care system has been a major talking point in numerous political campaigns. We aren’t just now waking up and yelling. “Hey, Luigi is right! Health care in this country sucks!”.
Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 10:57 pm
A Florida woman got arrested for allegedly said: "Delay, deny, depose. You people are next."
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:01 pm
It's not nearly as effective anymore..nor has it been for a long time. That's my point. If you'd written that arguing against a natural inclination to violence to solve our problems flies in the face of history, I'd have agreed. But saying we can't argue against its effectiveness? Not so much.
It is effective to get the public to focus on the problem. Now we don't know how long this is going to last but even WSJ reporting on problem with health insurance company:
You act as if WSJ and other news media hasn’t reported on our health care system and its problems before. A 5 second google search proves that is not the case. If I spend 10 seconds I’m sure I could quadruple that amount of articles written prior to the shooting.
Of course you can find more before the shootings. After all, you compare the news from a timeframe of several years or decades with a timeframe of a few days.
Now maybe if you can find a one week period before the shootings where there are more or same amount of coverage about the problem with the insurance then you'll prove your point.
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:01 pm
It's not nearly as effective anymore..nor has it been for a long time. That's my point. If you'd written that arguing against a natural inclination to violence to solve our problems flies in the face of history, I'd have agreed. But saying we can't argue against its effectiveness? Not so much.
It is effective to get the public to focus on the problem. Now we don't know how long this is going to last but even WSJ reporting on problem with health insurance company:
You act as if WSJ and other news media hasn’t reported on our health care system and its problems before. A 5 second google search proves that is not the case. If I spend 10 seconds I’m sure I could quadruple that amount of articles written prior to the shooting.
Of course you can find more before the shootings. After all, you compare the news from a timeframe of several years or decades with a timeframe of a few days.
Now maybe if you can find a one week period before the shootings where there are more or same amount of coverage about the problem with the insurance then you'll prove your point.
That article I linked to was from July of this year.
Would she be considered another hero in your view?
So you're against free speech now? Now wonder people like you have problem with "From river to the sea". Apparently simple words can be very scary to you.
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:01 pm
It's not nearly as effective anymore..nor has it been for a long time. That's my point. If you'd written that arguing against a natural inclination to violence to solve our problems flies in the face of history, I'd have agreed. But saying we can't argue against its effectiveness? Not so much.
It is effective to get the public to focus on the problem. Now we don't know how long this is going to last but even WSJ reporting on problem with health insurance company:
You act as if WSJ and other news media hasn’t reported on our health care system and its problems before. A 5 second google search proves that is not the case. If I spend 10 seconds I’m sure I could quadruple that amount of articles written prior to the shooting.
Of course you can find more before the shootings. After all, you compare the news from a timeframe of several years or decades with a timeframe of a few days.
Now maybe if you can find a one week period before the shootings where there are more or same amount of coverage about the problem with the insurance then you'll prove your point.
That article I linked to was from July of this year.
And? Can you find a week before the shooting where there are more news focus on healthcare problem than one week after the shooting?
Would she be considered another hero in your view?
Yes.
FTFY
Wrong. Not hero but a victim.
Apparently free speech is no longer important. Say something that can be interpreted as a threat. And you are a terrorist?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:18 pm
by hepcat
Christ, I forgot what dealing with you is like and got drawn in again, didn’t I? I apologize, everyone. I’m out.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:20 pm
by Victoria Raverna
hepcat wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:18 pm
Christ, I forgot what dealing with you is like and got drawn in again, didn’t I? I apologize, everyone. I’m out.
You forgot to look at a mirror. Didn't notice how you responded to people here?
Re: Shootings
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:44 pm
by Blackhawk
You two either get a room, or get a brace of dueling pistols and be done with it.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2024 12:12 am
by Max Peck
Welp, we've got what I believe is our first copycat C-suite shooting.
A high-level manager from a Russian company that develops missiles used in Moscow's war with Ukraine has been killed, according to reports.
Mikhail Shatsky, deputy general designer of the Mars Design Bureau and head of its software department, was shot dead in the Moscow region, according to the Astra Telegram channel and other Russian and Ukrainian sources.
The firm Shatsky worked for develops and manufactures onboard guidance systems for the Russian military and space industry. Since December 2017, it has been under a department of the state corporation Rosatom.
In reporting his death on Thursday, Ukrainian outlets noted that Shatsky was involved in the modernization of the Kh-59 and Kh-69 missiles, which Russia has repeatedly used to strike at targets in Ukraine.
Re: Shootings
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2024 12:28 am
by Victoria Raverna
Max Peck wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2024 12:12 am
Welp, we've got what I believe is our first copycat C-suite shooting.
A high-level manager from a Russian company that develops missiles used in Moscow's war with Ukraine has been killed, according to reports.
Mikhail Shatsky, deputy general designer of the Mars Design Bureau and head of its software department, was shot dead in the Moscow region, according to the Astra Telegram channel and other Russian and Ukrainian sources.
The firm Shatsky worked for develops and manufactures onboard guidance systems for the Russian military and space industry. Since December 2017, it has been under a department of the state corporation Rosatom.
In reporting his death on Thursday, Ukrainian outlets noted that Shatsky was involved in the modernization of the Kh-59 and Kh-69 missiles, which Russia has repeatedly used to strike at targets in Ukraine.
