Octopus Overlords

I have seen someone caught with multiple offers withdrawn after giving notice. To go from 2 offers and a job to unemployed was pretty ugly.

The Meal wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:So the question for everyone out there with experience actually switching jobs, do I give notification to my current employer before formally accepting the offer letter or accept it and then give notice? I don't expect my current employer to meet or beat but on the off chance, I assume I should probably give them that chance before formally accepting the offer?

You know best what to expect from your current employer and how you'd react to whatever news they give you. If you're comfortable with accepting the new offer, then the only sane response is to wait until all t's are crossed and i's dotted before you begin burning your current bridge. Shit happens (especially when China has to halt trading twice in the span of a week) which can make what should be a formality turn into something more. (#BitterAboutTheNineMonthsItTookFromWeWantYouToWeGotYouAnOfficialOffer #EconomicCollapse2007)

But if a potentially-acceptable counter is what you're really after, then it's time to roll the dice and Play The Game™. Best luck.

I'm not really after a counter. They'd have to promote me to hit the salary and I don't see that happening at all, I just want to close things out right and giving them the courtesy seems the right way. I'm just thinking that the offer sheet is the deal done, if I accept in the time frame. So once it's in hand I give my notice and then accept it.

Thankfully this industry is isolated from the price of tea in China but I'll consider the wisdom and The Meal Order of Acceptance (accept, then give notice).

The other consideration is that I want to give as much notice as possible. Right now it's at 3 weeks since part of the offer sheet includes a start date. There is a lot to hand off/close out and the sooner I can start, the better for all involved.

Zarathud wrote:I have seen someone caught with multiple offers withdrawn after giving notice. To go from 2 offers and a job to unemployed was pretty ugly.

That's scary. But are we talking days or weeks? I'm thinking an hour max between the two.


Of course, now that I say that it is a very tight industry so I could see a few calls being made if someone gets upset. Hmmm. And HR at the other waived the [usually mandatory] employment check because she didn't want to ping HR here. Adjusting prep from "I've been given an offer" to "I've accepted an offer..."

LawBeefaroni wrote: HR at the other waived the [usually mandatory] employment check because she didn't want to ping HR here. Adjusting prep from "I've been given an offer" to "I've accepted an offer..."

That seems wise.

Congratulations!

The unaccepted offer was pulled by the next morning, the second offer by end of day. If there is any chance that phone call will be made, accept then inform. You have no idea if there's bad blood between management in a small industry.

Good call.

Got the offer sheet on Friday, accepted today and I let my current boss know tomorrow or Tuesday. Really weird feeling after 19 years a salaryman.

coopasonic wrote:

coopasonic wrote:Congrats.

My review for 2014 hasn't been scheduled yet, but I expect the worst review of my career since I was promoted to Corporal in 1992. That is a primary driver for my recent job change. We're still getting started on that.

Confirmed, worst review ever.

On the plus side, the bonus for the worst review ever is still about 6%. 2 years ago when I got the best review ever it was around 20%.

As I had hoped, 2015 was a much better year: 3.5% raise, 13% bonus. I think I might be able to replace that computer I bought in 2010.

I spent most of 2015 learning skills that are actually useful in IT these days. I think I can actually get away with calling myself a java developer now. The transition was eased by being the resident expert on the platform we were replacing and being the only person at the company (of ~43k employees remember) that could read the code, knew the business behind it and had the time to answer questions about it. That project will wrap up in the next 3 months and then the real test begins. That first qualifier was the most restrictive. Now that the code is in java most of IT can read it better than I can.

It looks like most people my age move into management. I am not interested in that any time soon.

LawBeefaroni wrote:Got the offer sheet on Friday, accepted today and I let my current boss know tomorrow or Tuesday. Really weird feeling after 19 years a salaryman.

I'm going on 14 years and have had a standing offer for another job for more money for more than a year. A big part of the reason I haven't jumped on it is fear of change. Another would be it would involve working with Mrs. Impossible *and* her husband.

Let the boss know today. We had a short but nice talk, he said it was a shame because he saw "other opportunities" for me here pretty soon. I asked point blank what they were, he said he couldn't tell me, and I said that that was the problem. Always a carrot there but always just out of reach. I was hoping maybe he'd maybe give some indication but he said he couldn't. He's only been my boss for 3 months and he's a VP so I'm probably not reading him well but his hands are largely tied with the merger. So it kind of sucks but if they really want me to stay they'll put something concrete out there.

Tonight I do the resignation letter.

LawBeefaroni wrote:Let the boss know today. We had a short but nice talk, he said it was a shame because he saw "other opportunities" for me here pretty soon. I asked point blank what they were, he said he couldn't tell me, and I said that that was the problem. Always a carrot there but always just out of reach. I was hoping maybe he'd maybe give some indication but he said he couldn't. He's only been my boss for 3 months and he's a VP so I'm probably not reading him well but his hands are largely tied with the merger. So it kind of sucks but if they really want me to stay they'll put something concrete out there.

Tonight I do the resignation letter.

Upward and Onward!

LawBeefaroni wrote:Let the boss know today. We had a short but nice talk, he said it was a shame because he saw "other opportunities" for me here pretty soon. I asked point blank what they were, he said he couldn't tell me, and I said that that was the problem. Always a carrot there but always just out of reach. I was hoping maybe he'd maybe give some indication but he said he couldn't. He's only been my boss for 3 months and he's a VP so I'm probably not reading him well but his hands are largely tied with the merger. So it kind of sucks but if they really want me to stay they'll put something concrete out there.

Tonight I do the resignation letter.

Ay Matey! Ye know what to do!

Good luck!

Did the letter over lunch. Didn't want it hanging out there. Now I can tell the rest of the dept.

Our admin assistant didn't help by saying I was a shoo-in for an ED job in a for months. I told her to I probably have a better shot as an outside candidate rather than a typecast one who will always be available.

Jag wrote: Ay Matey! Ye know what to do!

Good luck!

I have several of those stashed away from my days under a tyrant.

LawBeefaroni wrote:Our admin assistant didn't help by saying I was a shoo-in for an ED job in a for months. I told her to I probably have a better shot as an outside candidate rather than a typecast one who will always be available.

When they want you they want you as an asset. When they have you, you are resource to be used at their discretion.

Congrats! May you be an asset for a long time to go come and not have to worry about opportunities coming pretty soon.

Still waiting on my annual review from September to be finalized. I'll gripe in February if it hasn't come through.

Meeting this afternoon that might expand my programming duties to assist our CUSO with some work involving a new data warehousing project. It would be nice to get some work into techs that are actually known in the industry. If it pans out, I would likely end up with my second minion.

LordMortis wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:Our admin assistant didn't help by saying I was a shoo-in for an ED job in a for months. I told her to I probably have a better shot as an outside candidate rather than a typecast one who will always be available.

When they want you they want you as an asset. When they have you, you are resource to be used at their discretion.

Congrats! May you be an asset for a long time to go come and not have to worry about opportunities coming pretty soon.

My AA says that my current boss and the chairman are meeting later today to discuss my letter. I'm not averse to more offers but it's becoming a bit stressful.

And on top of that I have to go for my pre-hire physical at the new place tonight on the way home. I need to pee in a cup there and it sucks to try to time that. Do I go now (for the second time today) and then pound water? Try to hold it until 4?

You don't need much for a urine test. Give yourself an hour and you'll be fine.

PLW wrote:You don't need much for a urine test. Give yourself an hour and you'll be fine.

You're right. I was drinking water all day and peed about every hour. I had no problem.





They just offered my AA here a retention contract to stay ($X bonus for X months, payable at the end of the term) and she says they are probably drafting one for me with another offer. She went to bat for me big time. So my new question is, how bad form would it be to bail on the new place if they can beat the offer here? My VP said I should have gone to him first but I still agree with the wisdom here about a bird in the hand.

At least now I know there's no risk, aside from offending someone.

Never take a counter offer. While you may have room for growth at a new place as you move up, you'll be at/near the cap at your current place. You've already demonstrated that you're not committed to them, so they won't be effusive going forward with rewards and accolades unless they are somehow convinced that you can not be done without. And no one is indispensable.

I think we discussed this before, if not earlier in this thread, then a similar one and the general thought (with a few anecdotal exceptions) was taking the counter-offer is probably not the best move. Part of the reason is resentment from the management from forcing their hand, another is that they were content to keep you down and intentionally not giving you what they know you are worth. However, your relationship with the management is specific and may not fall under such generalizations.

How do you see the next 5 years panning out in the new company vs. whatever counter-proposal your current company offers? One may be better now and the other a better upside for the future.

I know we've had this discussion before and that opinions vary, but I am firmly in the camp that taking a counter-offer is always bad idea. If you were that important to them, they would have offered it before you told them you were leaving. Offering it now is them trying to plug a gap, recognizing that you going will be a problem. Be polite, be gracious but walk away. There has been too much violence. Too much pain. Just walk away and they'll give you a safe passageway in the wastelands. Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror.

Isgrimnur wrote:Never take a counter offer. While you may have room for growth at a new place as you move up, you'll be at/near the cap at your current place. You've already demonstrated that you're not committed to them, so they won't be effusive going forward with rewards and accolades unless they are somehow convinced that you can not be done without. And no one is indispensable.

Any counter-offer I take would have to include a retention contract/bonus, a raise (meat or beat the new offer) and most importantly, a new title or grade. As far as commitment, 19-years is not small thing today. I'm loyal but not loyal enough to turn down a 25%+ pay hike. I'd hope they understand that.

There is the thing about being a new fish in a small pond vs. being in a fish farm in a giant lake though.



Annnd, just got a meeting request with the VP for tomorrow morning.

Be polite, you have nothing to lose by listening. You just have no obligation to accept. With the big jump in pay, there will be deficiencies in the counter to decline graciously.

Zarathud wrote:Be polite, you have nothing to lose by listening. You just have no obligation to accept. With the big jump in pay, there will be deficiencies in the counter to decline graciously.

Offered a 20% retention bonus (10% now, 10% in 12 months, have to pay the first half back if I leave in under 12 months). I said it was less than the raise I'd be getting and I'd also need some kind of guarantee that there would be salary/position change in the near future. They can't promise me that, and I understand it. We meet again tomorrow to discuss any creative ways to make up the difference. Will probably come down to more bonus. Would have to be in the 50% range I'm thinking? Just need to be done with all this. Ugh.

On the plus side, my TB test looks negative and they haven't called about the drug or nicotine screen.

And now a president from the merging entitiy called me and said he will "neutralize" the salary issue and guarantee me a better position and guarantee that I'd stay downtown and wouldn't have to commute to the suburbs. Where was all this love for the last 20 years?

At this point I'm done talking around the numbers and getting creative. I'm just going to tell them what they need to pay me, annually and starting immediately. If they do it then I have an uncomfortable discussion turning down the other offer. If not, I move on.

I should have played Powerball.

I'm a little confused. I thought you had already taken the other offer.

That's why the other discussion would be uncomfortable.

It's so interesting how industries differ. In my job, getting outside offers to induce pay raises is very common, but turning down an offer after you accepted it would get you blackballed for a long time.

Turning down an offer you've already accepted is bad form in every industry. Some industries are just big enough that you can avoid consequences. I think that's why LawBeef was hesitant to even consider a counter-offer and asked for advice about giving his employer a chance to counter before accepting.

It's not necessarily the size of the industry, but your place in it. Since Lawbeef is brokering with C-level folks, even a big industry can get awfully small as people at that level tend to know each other.

I think part of it is that withdrawing an offer before the deadline is also unheard of. So.. you also get a chance to negotiate with your current employer before taking the outside option.

Zarathud wrote:Be polite, you have nothing to lose by listening.

Disagree. As soon as you listen then you've basically turned it into a negotiation over money. At that point you're down a dangerous path.

Be firm that you're on your way out but you appreciate what they're trying to do for you. Then make up some (non-compensation-related) reason why you're on your way out.

The Meal wrote:Then make up some (non-compensation-related) reason why you're on your way out.

To be frank with you, sir; the other place has hotter chicks.

LawBeefaroni wrote: a raise (meat or beat the new offer)

And it better be veal! None of that cheap poultry crap!

The Meal wrote:

Zarathud wrote:Be polite, you have nothing to lose by listening.

Disagree. As soon as you listen then you've basically turned it into a negotiation over money. At that point you're down a dangerous path.

Agreed

make up some (non-compensation-related) reason why you're on your way out.

Disagree. Be honest but polite even unto apologetic. If compensation was the reason for leaving, politely apologize that it's too late consider that option and that the goal was never to create a hostage situation for more money and how backing out now is simply too dangerous of a proposition.

A legitimate option. But to some (higher-ranking management's ears), that's just treated as if it were a negotiating tactic.

To me, it's always a big red flag how they can magically find more money once you give notice.
I agree that once you head down that path, they kind of got you by the short ones.
You've shown them that they, not you, dictate your own future.
My take is, losing me is the price you pay for being cheap all those years. Good luck.

stimpy wrote:To me, it's always a big red flag how they can magically find more money once you give notice.
My take is, losing me is the price you pay for being cheap all those years. Good luck.

That would be my take once I had another bird in hand.

But I'd still be honest but polite about it.

stimpy wrote:My take is, losing me is the price you pay for being cheap all those years. Good luck.

Exactly. Making concessions now (and giving you a boost) effectively ends any future negotiations on the subject ever again. What else do you want? We matched your offer to leave 5 years ago. The thing that makes it all clear to me is that I am the same person -- I didn't magically acquire new skills or certifications in the time I gave you notice -- and yet here you are throwing money at me trying to get me to stay. And while they might think that's a terrific idea in the moment (and it might be worth plugging the knowledge gap that's about to leave), I have to believe at some point in the future someone (multiple someones) might ask was it worth it? Are we really getting $X+ value now? Maybe they are - and there's certainly nothing stopping that mental exercise at any time, but now you have a target on your back made out of money they just gave you.

Make no mistake, they're looking out for their own interests right now with the counter offer, not yours.

Smoove_B wrote:

stimpy wrote:My take is, losing me is the price you pay for being cheap all those years. Good luck.

Exactly. Making concessions now (and giving you a boost) effectively ends any future negotiations on the subject ever again. What else do you want? We matched your offer to leave 5 years ago. The thing that makes it all clear to me is that I am the same person -- I didn't magically acquire new skills or certifications in the time I gave you notice -- and yet here you are throwing money at me trying to get me to stay. And while they might think that's a terrific idea in the moment (and it might be worth plugging the knowledge gap that's about to leave), I have to believe at some point in the future someone (multiple someones) might ask was it worth it? Are we really getting $X+ value now? Maybe they are - and there's certainly nothing stopping that mental exercise at any time, but now you have a target on your back made out of money they just gave you.

Make no mistake, they're looking out for their own interests right now with the counter offer, not yours.

One of my more cynical but honest colleagues said, "The quickest path to VP here is to leave." It did make me take note that president who is trying to get me to stay has been with the organization less than 2 years.

LawBeefaroni wrote: One of my more cynical but honest colleagues said, "The quickest path to VP here is to leave." It did make me take note that president who is trying to get me to stay has been with the organization less than 2 years.

A lot of companies are reluctant to promote from within -- not because their employees haven't earned it, but because it upsets the applecart; you were doing such a great job in what you did and now they need to try to fill your shoes. That doesn't work, however, if the employee has an ounce of ambition.

I've always refused to think like that. Once, a tech who reported to me indicated his desire to fill a vacancy on the networking team. The CIO told me, "you realize 50% of what makes me look good and 90% of what makes you look good is James." I replied, "Nevertheless, he wants to pursue this opportunity and he certainly deserved it."

James was promoted to the networking position, subsequently canned in the bloodbath that claimed the careers of many (including myself) after being acquired, then was rehired into that old position he did so well, where last I heard he still was toiling away...