Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:22 pm**

hepcat wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:14 pm Zimmer weighs in.

Awesome.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:27 pm**

Alefroth wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:50 am
Rip wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:17 am
Alefroth wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:25 am
Rip wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:53 am Christ half the people in America have as much native american blood as she does, what a joke.
Cite?
https://twitter.com/michael_ahrens/stat ... 1013014528
Clearly you and Ahrens have a desired conclusion, so you're ignoring that Warren is also 'possibly' 1/64th, which is 1.5%, much higher than the average the survey of merely 160,000 people found. The one where one of the co-authors said there was likely survey bias.

Additionally, I don't think the report precludes the possibility of others somewhere further up (the report specifically stated that smaller segments weren't identifiable).

Also, the average doesn't mean half the people will have more and half less (that's median). If anything, given that one can have much more than much less, there are probably a *lot* more people with less.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:33 pm**

hepcat wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:14 pm Zimmer weighs in.

Right or wrong, she engaged with Trump at his level. That never ends well for anyone but Trump because her audience expects more as they're hoping for someone to counter Trump, not mimic him. She should be studying Beto O'Rourke, not Trump.

Reading through Zimmer's thread (thanks for that, btw) highlights how complex this issue is and, even more so, how stupid Warren was to join (restart) battle over it. Like Trump and the Trumpers (or most of America on either side of the aisle for that matter) have a snowball's chance in hell of understanding the science behind these tests. Her trying to support her dubious claim to Cherokee ancestry, especially in this way, is pure Don Quixote.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:38 pm**

Political impacts aside, I am glad she did this. It absolutely legitimizes any claims she had.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:50 pm**

hepcat wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:14 pm Zimmer weighs in.

Right or wrong, she engaged with Trump at his level. That never ends well for anyone but Trump because her audience expects more as they're hoping for someone to counter Trump, not mimic him. She should be studying Beto O'Rourke, not Trump.

The thing is that for her right now engaging at Trump's level is probably to her benefit. Remember that Trump is actually (hard as it is to say) above her level, seeing as how he is President. If Trump's attacking her personally, that raises her profile in the Democratic primary. If Trump winds up framing her as his main opponent, that's going to create the impression that she is his main opponent, which is SUPER beneficial for her in a Democratic primary.

Plus it has the side benefit of burning off some fuel for this before the general election.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:04 pm**

We should probably demand that Trump take a DNA test to prove he's even 1 percent human.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:08 pm**

Kurth wrote:Did she think this was going to inoculate her from further attacks by Trump and the Trumpsters? Are you kidding me? The results could have been ironclad, and we all know it wouldn’t have mattered one bit. She’d still be Pocahontas. You can’t make a bully shut up by proving his taunts and teasing are merit less. He (and his followers) don’t give a shit. Has no one on Warren’s campaign ever been at or watched an elementary school recess?

Sometimes, you challenge the bully to a fight and Kick His Ass for the Respect. While Warren doesn't pwn Trump as much as Stormy, she does hold her own on Twitter. As much as Biden holds his own when speaking about Trump.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm**

Warren, pointing to stories passed down from her family in Oklahoma, has long asserted that her great-great-great-grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith, was at least partially Native American. The test result, performed by a Stanford geneticist and MacArthur genius, is consistent with that claim; he says there's less than a 1/1,000 chance that it's wrong. That ought to be the final word on the subject. Of course, it won't be among the know-nothings who simply believe whatever their leader says.

I think she was right to put this out there early, before the campaign season gets rolling. Should be easy to swat it down going forward.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:21 pm**

hepcat wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:04 pm We should probably demand that Trump take a DNA test to prove he's even 1 percent human.

How can we believe it unless we administer it personally?

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:24 pm**

Kraken wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm Warren, pointing to stories passed down from her family in Oklahoma, has long asserted that her great-great-great-grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith, was at least partially Native American. The test result, performed by a Stanford geneticist and MacArthur genius, is consistent with that claim; he says there's less than a 1/1,000 chance that it's wrong. That ought to be the final word on the subject. Of course, it won't be among the know-nothings who simply believe whatever their leader says.

I think she was right to put this out there early, before the campaign season gets rolling. Should be easy to swat it down going forward.

While GOP misinformation machine feeds on ignorance, this is truly what I mean when I say

Warren has a wisdom, is a bulldog, the ability to recall with specificity, and is consistent. They won't use her words against her and will have to actually build a case and in doing so, deny the immense good she's done as a lawmaker and guardian for justice.

They don't know how to fight her so they lie and insult and treat misinformed op eds like facts. I'm not sure she can overcome the current round of arrogant asshat stupidity. I can't even call it willful ignorance any more but I do stll like so much about her so very very much that I'm willing to work with her on things like college loan forgiveness.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:34 pm**

LordMortis wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:24 pm
Kraken wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm Warren, pointing to stories passed down from her family in Oklahoma, has long asserted that her great-great-great-grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith, was at least partially Native American. The test result, performed by a Stanford geneticist and MacArthur genius, is consistent with that claim; he says there's less than a 1/1,000 chance that it's wrong. That ought to be the final word on the subject. Of course, it won't be among the know-nothings who simply believe whatever their leader says.

I think she was right to put this out there early, before the campaign season gets rolling. Should be easy to swat it down going forward.
While GOP misinformation machine feeds on ignorance, this is truly what I mean when I say

Warren has a wisdom, is a bulldog, the ability to recall with specificity, and is consistent. They won't use her words against her and will have to actually build a case and in doing so, deny the immense good she's done as a lawmaker and guardian for justice.
They don't know how to fight her so they lie and insult and treat misinformed op eds like facts. I'm not sure she can overcome the current round of arrogant asshat stupidity. I can't even call it willful ignorance any more but I do stll like so much about her so very very much that I'm willing to work with her on things like college loan forgiveness.

Trump has been going after her consistently for years already, and she gives as good as she gets. In fact, yesterday Trump said he hopes Warren wins the nomination because she'll be very easy to beat. He obviously sees her as a serious threat (Trump always says the opposite of what's true, in case you hadn't noticed).

The ongoing surge of women into politics and concurrent right-wing attacks on women's rights makes me believe that having a woman on the ticket will be as big a plus in '20 as it was a minus in '16. Just as 2016 was the year of the outsider, 2020 will be the year of the woman.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:46 pm**

Kraken wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm Warren, pointing to stories passed down from her family in Oklahoma, has long asserted that her great-great-great-grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith, was at least partially Native American. The test result, performed by a Stanford geneticist and MacArthur genius, is consistent with that claim; he says there's less than a 1/1,000 chance that it's wrong. That ought to be the final word on the subject. Of course, it won't be among the know-nothings who simply believe whatever their leader says.

I think she was right to put this out there early, before the campaign season gets rolling. Should be easy to swat it down going forward.

The most credible counter-issues I've seen raised on this are:

(1) Warren claimed that her father's parents wouldn't let him marry her mother because her family was part-Native American (causing them to elope). It seems weird that they would do that if the ancestry was just one great-great grandmother (though who knows, racists aren't always super precise or data-driven). But if that story isn't true, I would think it would be fairly easily disproven.

(2) Warren apparently filled out various forms while teaching at schools indicating some degree of Native American ancestry, and seems to have been noted as a minority teacher on at least a few university forms / announcements / pamphlets / etc. I don't have a great understanding of exactly what forms she filled out, exactly what she was saying on those forms, or whether she knew afterwards what the universities were doing with that information. My understanding is that there's no evidence that this played any role in her professional advancement (or that she was regarded as anything other than white by hiring people / colleagues).

I doubt that either issue is really anything serious, but those are the misrepresentations that are (as far as I currently know) not obviously nonsense.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:12 pm**

A good deal of punditry yesterday was treating this as a self-own by Warren, but it seems to me that it erases the one big lie Trump continually attributes to her.

This clears the way for a 2020 campaign of attack based on Trump's lies. I'd love to see the DNC run a four-hour infomercial doing nothing but listing them.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:16 pm**

IMO, releasing this will allow credible news sources to easily point out that the President is lying every time he brings this up. It won't, of course, stop him from bringing it up or stop the overwhelming majority of people on the right from buying his lies (see: Birtherism, etc)

Of course, knowing that Warren had a Native American in her family tree six to ten generations ago is a lot less important than knowing that Trump has a lying asshole in his family tree, zero generations ago.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:18 pm**

hepcat wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:04 pm We should probably demand that Trump take a DNA test to prove he's even 1 percent human.

I'm not a biologist, but I do think that human excrement contains human DNA.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:18 pm**

I'm all for standing up to the bully, but I don't think this attempt by Warren was very effective. I think it provides grist for the Trump mill.

Look, I'm 100% behind almost anybody that has a good chance of beating Trump in the general. I just don't think Warren is that person.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:21 pm**

Not effective, no - but it does remove his only tooth in chewing on her. Not that he won't continue to gum her...

I'd prefer to see Kamala Harris, just based on her performance with Kavanuagh.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:29 pm**

Paingod wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:21 pm Not effective, no - but it does remove his only tooth in chewing on her.

Does it really though? If anything, "1/1024" is becoming a comedy meme for conservatives right now.

For example

https://twitter.com/KellyannePolls/stat ... 5820569602

https://twitter.com/DanCovfefe1/status/ ... 1652820992

She should have let this go unless she could trot out a direct descendant from a recognized tribe or something. But now? It's just going to get worse.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:38 pm**

When it's old news, he might try and grab at it - but it's weak and likely won't stick with his gang of trolls. They only gnash and rend when it's fresh.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:19 pm**

hepcat wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:29 pm
Paingod wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:21 pm Not effective, no - but it does remove his only tooth in chewing on her.
Does it really though? If anything, "1/1024" is becoming a comedy meme for conservatives right now.

She should have let this go unless she could trot out a direct descendant from a recognized tribe or something. But now? It's just going to get worse.

Meh. It's not like those people are going to be well behaved if you stay quiet. They'll just find something else to mock, like sexual assault victims.

It's my opinion that the details are mostly irrelevant now, and will be completely irrelevant during the election campaign. Drumpf will continue to say "pocahontas" whatever the case. His racial slur doesn't rely on accuracy, and in fact it only makes sense if she is indeed of native american descent. It's not like those who accept a president who uses racial slurs are going to care one way or another whatever Warren does or does not do.

If at any time someone claims she's a liar, her counter pre-exists. I imagine it would go something like this "You lie" "No I don't" and then the media will hold up her released DNA test for her. She'll probably bring it up herself, which I think would be a mistake (but a minor one).

That's it.

Those that might not vote for her if she's a proven liar (what are their other options? Drumpf? Hah!) can vote for her in good conscience. Those that won't vote for her if she does/doesn't have native american heritage aren't worth discussing, as they aren't going to be swayed by facts anyway.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:25 pm**

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:46 pm
Kraken wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:10 pm Warren, pointing to stories passed down from her family in Oklahoma, has long asserted that her great-great-great-grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith, was at least partially Native American. The test result, performed by a Stanford geneticist and MacArthur genius, is consistent with that claim; he says there's less than a 1/1,000 chance that it's wrong. That ought to be the final word on the subject. Of course, it won't be among the know-nothings who simply believe whatever their leader says.

I think she was right to put this out there early, before the campaign season gets rolling. Should be easy to swat it down going forward.
The most credible counter-issues I've seen raised on this are:

(1) Warren claimed that her father's parents wouldn't let him marry her mother because her family was part-Native American (causing them to elope). It seems weird that they would do that if the ancestry was just one great-great grandmother (though who knows, racists aren't always super precise or data-driven). But if that story isn't true, I would think it would be fairly easily disproven.

(2) Warren apparently filled out various forms while teaching at schools indicating some degree of Native American ancestry, and seems to have been noted as a minority teacher on at least a few university forms / announcements / pamphlets / etc. I don't have a great understanding of exactly what forms she filled out, exactly what she was saying on those forms, or whether she knew afterwards what the universities were doing with that information. My understanding is that there's no evidence that this played any role in her professional advancement (or that she was regarded as anything other than white by hiring people / colleagues).

I doubt that either issue is really anything serious, but those are the misrepresentations that are (as far as I currently know) not obviously nonsense.

The Globe did a thorough investigation a few weeks ago and found zero evidence that her ancestry claim had influenced her career. So once again, that is easily dispelled for the reality-based community. At worst, her employers used it to bolster their affirmative action cred.

As for (1), family lore is seldom documented. My dad told us that we are related to Bonnie Parker (of Bonnie & Clyde) and Butch Cassidy (Robert Leroy Parker, whose birthday I share). Could I prove that I have notorious outlaw blood? Nope, and investigating might disprove it. But I like to believe it and repeat the story anyway. IDK why Warren would make up a story like that. Whether it's true or not, I don't doubt that it is what she was told.

(shrug) None of this ever mattered very much to me so I'd be happy to call it settled and forget about it. I'm sure Lizzie would, too. If I were her, I'd call the discussion closed and refuse to engage any further. Her opponent specializes in disregarding facts and warping truth, and that speaks volumes.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:30 pm**

Kraken wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:25 pm (shrug) None of this ever mattered very much to me so I'd be happy to call it settled and forget about it. I'm sure Lizzie would, too. If I were her, I'd call the discussion closed and refuse to engage any further. Her opponent specializes in disregarding facts and warping truth, and that speaks volumes.

That's how I feel about it. She can safely ignore any further discussion on the subject, and that includes during the presidential campaign. Well, "safely" in that people who care about the truth have their answer. Those that are swayed by lies when the facts are presented to them aren't going to be swayed by further discussion of the facts.

Shrug.

Wait, I have been assuming that the problem her is that she made a claim without evidence to back it up, and now she has it. Is the problem that she'll now be viewed through the filter of racism?

Is this a damned if you are, damned if you aren't situation?

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:33 pm**

"Conservative"/alt-right/Nazi/OK/Russian trolls are going to go after anyone who runs against Trump, no matter who they are or what the basis of the attack may be. If that fact is going to undercut anti-Trump support or intimidate his opponents, then your goose is stepped cooked.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:37 pm**

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:19 pm Meh. It's not like those people are going to be well behaved if you stay quiet.

That is my experience. Truth and/or validity to their directive not required. The question is did she actually do herself a dis-service. I do see two ways it's possible.

1) that even 1/64th annoys a segment of US Tribal who are more so and follow the traditions handed down. With Halloween and the "I'm a person not costume" memes around the corner, that could hurt. (Have you seen the cat annoyed by the sexy cat costume this year? Made me laugh...)

2)

(2) Warren apparently filled out various forms while teaching at schools indicating some degree of Native American ancestry, and seems to have been noted as a minority teacher on at least a few university forms / announcements / pamphlets / etc. I don't have a great understanding of exactly what forms she filled out, exactly what she was saying on those forms, or whether she knew afterwards what the universities were doing with that information. My understanding is that there's no evidence that this played any role in her professional advancement (or that she was regarded as anything other than white by hiring people / colleagues).

This has come up before when the "Pocahontas" talk became Trump's shtick for he but never has been a focus. If there is credence to her using undocumented heritage as Native American to claim benefits of being Native American, then that's a problem and putting a magnifying glass to it was a bad move. That said, Warren having done this and then boldly opening the closet for that skeleton to be exposed, and basking in it? That is inconsistent with the Warren I've seen for the last half decade. One would think the truth would out itself there fairly quickly in this spotlight environment, so I'll wait to see if it's

or

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:38 pm**

Max Peck wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:33 pm If that fact is going to undercut anti-Trump support or intimidate his opponents, then your goose is stepped cooked.

I declare this...whatever the funny bit is called here, not terrible.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:40 pm**

LordMortis wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:37 pm With Halloween and the "I'm a person not costume" memes around the corner, that could hurt. (Have you seen the cat annoyed by the sexy cat costume this year? Made me laugh...)

It's only a matter of time before the police and firemen voice their concerns.

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:20 pm**

There's a mushy semi-informed "both sides" electorate easily swayed by the appearance of strong claims.

Trump's Pocahontas smear will work with fewer of them now even if the hardcore sides are unmoved.

(And of course at some cosmic level liberals once again know--rather than just suspect--that Trump is a goddamn liar.)

Posted: **Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:24 pm**

I guess.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:07 am**

It's over for Warren:

Among the many unfortunate results of Warren’s recent DNA test suggesting she’s somewhere between 1/64th and 1/1,024th Native American by ethnicity: It inevitably draws attention to her contribution to the ’80s cookbook, “Pow Wow Chow: A Collection of Recipes from Families of the Five Civilized Tribes.” Under “Elizabeth Warren, Cherokee,” it lists five recipes, three of which were apparently cribbed from the New York Times and Better Homes and Gardens.

Worse, one of the recipes she submitted: “Crab with Tomato Mayonnaise Dressing.” A traditional Cherokee dish with mayonnaise, a 19th-century condiment imported by settlers? A crab dish from landlocked Oklahoma? This can mean only one thing: canned crab.

Warren is unfit to lead.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:11 am**

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:07 am It's over for Warren:

Among the many unfortunate results of Warren’s recent DNA test suggesting she’s somewhere between 1/64th and 1/1,024th Native American by ethnicity: It inevitably draws attention to her contribution to the ’80s cookbook, “Pow Wow Chow: A Collection of Recipes from Families of the Five Civilized Tribes.” Under “Elizabeth Warren, Cherokee,” it lists five recipes, three of which were apparently cribbed from the New York Times and Better Homes and Gardens.

Worse, one of the recipes she submitted: “Crab with Tomato Mayonnaise Dressing.” A traditional Cherokee dish with mayonnaise, a 19th-century condiment imported by settlers? A crab dish from landlocked Oklahoma? This can mean only one thing: canned crab.

Warren is unfit to lead.

That's such a weird column. Positively Maureen Dowd-ish.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:13 am**

It's Dana Milbank, no stranger to controversy.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:15 am**

It's like a gossip column but nominally about politics. Which is basically Dowd's corner.

Also reminds me how much I hate Maureen Dowd.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:18 am**

I'm glad I could help.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 am**

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:07 am It's over for Warren:

Worse, one of the recipes she submitted: “Crab with Tomato Mayonnaise Dressing.” A traditional Cherokee dish with mayonnaise, a 19th-century condiment imported by settlers? A crab dish from landlocked Oklahoma? This can mean only one thing: canned crab.

Warren is unfit to lead.

How does the author not know the Cherokee came from the Southeast (where they easily could have gorged on crustaceans from the crab-infested Carolinas)? Makes me want to leave a trail of tears for journalism today.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:12 pm**

Jeff V wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:22 am
Isgrimnur wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:07 am It's over for Warren:

Worse, one of the recipes she submitted: “Crab with Tomato Mayonnaise Dressing.” A traditional Cherokee dish with mayonnaise, a 19th-century condiment imported by settlers? A crab dish from landlocked Oklahoma? This can mean only one thing: canned crab.

Warren is unfit to lead.

How does the author not know the Cherokee came from the Southeast (where they easily could have gorged on crustaceans from the crab-infested Carolinas)? Makes me want to leave a trail of tears for journalism today.

Not sure why he thinks traditional has to be pre-European settlement. There is probably all sorts of pow wow food that didn't exist hundreds of years ago.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:18 pm**

Is "Pow Wow Food" offensive? It sounds offensive, but I don't know.

While I hated the Milbank column (obviously), the cookbook thing isn't a great look.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:24 pm**

El Guapo wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:18 pm Is "Pow Wow Food" offensive? It sounds offensive, but I don't know.

While I hated the Milbank column (obviously), the cookbook thing isn't a great look.

Well, a pow wow is an actual thing. It's not movie-Indian slang.

As for the cookbook, I imagine it depends on the publisher and the presentation.

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:26 pm**

El Guapo wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:18 pm Is "Pow Wow Food" offensive? It sounds offensive, but I don't know.

While I hated the Milbank column (obviously), the cookbook thing isn't a great look.

Well, it was the 80s; we should be glad that it wasn't called "Redskin Food".

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:29 pm**

Nothing more Native American than apple pie.

Seminole Nation Museum

Posted: **Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:44 pm**

El Guapo wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:18 pm Is "Pow Wow Food" offensive? It sounds offensive, but I don't know.

While I hated the Milbank column (obviously), the cookbook thing isn't a great look.

I'm no authority, but I don't know why it would be, as long as it's referring to an actual pow wow, and not just any group of people meeting. Pow wows are not uncommon out here and are often open to the public.

The cookbook itself isn't a great look, or just her contribution to it?

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