Octopus Overlords

There's enough support from citizens. There just aren't enough Congress creatures with the guts to listen to them.

They don't want to lose NRA money and the easy single issue 2A votes.

Awesome.

Pre-op or Post-op?

Smoove_B wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:00 pm Could they be using the California legal definition?

They probably are, but...

msteelers wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:12 pm
I'm told that only people who don't know what they are doing use high capacity magazines.

...only applies to the other definition. It's caused by the mechanism being designed for a certain type of magazine, while a much larger magazine requires a spring with different tension to manage the larger stack of rounds, which tends to cause jams. That's why knowledgeable people avoid them - having to reload is better than having to clear unpredictable jams.

Anyway, I agree that the needle moved a bit this time. Maybe even enough that it could have brought significant change if the government wasn't 100% Republican right now. Of course if it were a Dem government, such change would probably just make all the Republican voters turn out in hordes the next time and elect a full set of conservatives to reverse it.

The CNN townhall was intense.

Sheriff Israel probably locked up reelection for life in that community with his sometimes aggressive attacks on the NRA. But his talk of expanding the Baker Act was more than a little terrifying.

The thing about the townhall is that these teenagers and parents are too angry to play by the established rules. The teen directly asked Rubio if he would continue taking NRA donations was a huge moment. Rubio flopped around, but the teen pressed until it was clear that Rubio was going to keep taking money.

Rip wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:52 pmPre-op or Post-op?

Both. Either. You choose.

Perhaps you could explain the difference.

Those students and parents were...brutally honest...about their feelings and intensity on gun issues.

While Rubio's stump speeches didn't convince anyone he was right, you have to recognize him for having the courage to show up. It's a great way for him to differentiate himself and show he's not a lightweight. While Trump hides in the White House, "little Marco" turns out to have "mucho huevos."

Q: “Is our democracy broken?” (Kid whose sister was shot and killed)
A: “Yep. A little bit.” (By Rep. Deutch)

Yeah, I’d say. At least a little bit.

May have already been posted, but this Vox article makes some great points.

The most important is the last: The Second Amendment is a serious impediment to meaningfully addressing the gun violence epidemic in the U.S. and will remain so.

If the fundamental problem is that America has far too many guns, then policies need to cut the number of guns in circulation right now to seriously reduce the number of gun deaths. Background checks and other restrictions on who can buy a gun can’t achieve that in the short term. What America likely needs, then, is something more like Australia’s mandatory buyback program — essentially, a gun confiscation scheme — paired with a serious ban on specific firearms (including, potentially, all semiautomatic weapons).

But no one in Congress is seriously proposing something that sweeping. The Manchin-Toomey bill, the only gun legislation in Congress after Sandy Hook that came close to becoming law, didn’t even establish universal background checks. Recent proposals have been even milder, taking small steps like banning bump stocks or slightly improving the existing system for background checks.

Part of the holdup is the Second Amendment. While there is reasonable scholarly debate about whether the Second Amendment actually protects all Americans’ individual right to bear arms and prohibits stricter forms of gun control, the reality is the Supreme Court and US lawmakers widely agree that the Second Amendment does put barriers on how far restrictions can go. That would likely rule out anything like the Australian policy response short of a court reinterpretation or a repeal of the Second Amendment, neither of which seems likely.

So the US, for political, cultural, and legal reasons, seems to be unable to take the action that it really needs.

Sorry for the serial posts, but watching Dana Loesch in this CNN town hall has me fired up.

The answer is to make sure people who are a danger to themselves and others don’t have access to guns?

The answer to mass shootings, let alone the more significant problem of general gun violence, is not going to be found in the fucking Minority Report.

It is like a reality show, scripted questions and all.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:46 am It is like a reality show, scripted questions and all.

Oh, just come out and say it. You know you want to.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:46 am It is like a reality show, scripted questions and all.

The questions were submitted ahead of time so that CNN could time them properly. This isn't a secret or a bomb shell. It's how all debates and town halls work. How else do they think Jake Tapper can say "Here's David, a student who was locked in a closet while the shooting occurred. He has a question for Mr. Rubio"?

The claim by one of the students is that CNN didn't want him to ask his question about using armed veterans at schools. Instead he was supposed to ask some scripted question. CNN responded as below to RCP which published the story.

UPDATE: CNN released the following statement Thursday morning:

CNN did not, and does not, script any questions for town hall meetings, ever.

That kid is not going to be too popular with his peers.

GOP congresswoman claims ‘so many’ mass murderers ‘end up being Democrats’

Rep. Claudia Tenney, a Republican from New York, claimed in a radio interview Wednesday that “so many” people who commit mass murders “end up being Democrats.”

Tenney, a first-term congresswoman and staunch supporter of the Second Amendment, made the controversial remark while discussing last week’s school shooting in Parkland, Fla., which left 17 people dead.

Speaking to host Fred Dicker on Albany radio station WGDJ, Tenney said she feared “a lot of these legal gun owners are going to be targeted now,” even though “in their demographic they have the least amount of crimes than virtually any other demographic.”

malchior wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:16 am The claim by one of the students is that CNN didn't want him to ask his question about using armed veterans at schools. Instead he was supposed to ask some scripted question. CNN responded as below to RCP which published the story.

UPDATE: CNN released the following statement Thursday morning:

CNN did not, and does not, script any questions for town hall meetings, ever.

That kid is not going to be too popular with his peers.

There were several questions and comments about armed guards in school during the town hall. I wouldn't be surprised if CNN didn't want the kid to ask the question because they felt like the topic was already adequately covered.

msteelers wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:26 am

malchior wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:16 am The claim by one of the students is that CNN didn't want him to ask his question about using armed veterans at schools. Instead he was supposed to ask some scripted question. CNN responded as below to RCP which published the story.

UPDATE: CNN released the following statement Thursday morning:

CNN did not, and does not, script any questions for town hall meetings, ever.

That kid is not going to be too popular with his peers.

There were several questions and comments about armed guards in school during the town hall. I wouldn't be surprised if CNN didn't want the kid to ask the question because they felt like the topic was already adequately covered.

Reading the original story it felt like he was lying or heavily misinterpreting the situation. He was pushing a CNN is forcing some question down my throat angle.

"I expected to be able to ask my questions and give my opinion on my questions," Haab said.

"Colton Haab, a member of the Junior ROTC who shielded classmates in the midst of terror says he did not get to share his experience," WPLG's Janine Stanwood explained.

"Colton wrote questions about school safety, suggested using veterans as armed school security guards but claims CNN wanted him to ask a scripted question instead so he decided not to go," Stanwood reported.

"CNN had originally asked me to write a speech and questions and it ended up being all scripted," Haab said. "I don't think that it's going get anything accomplished. It's not gonna ask the true questions that all the parents and teachers and students have."

Barring some other information coming out, I'm going to assume he misinterpreted the situation.

Although there was one moment where Rubio's mic was left on while going to commercial break, and it sounded like he was asking a student if he was an actor. So maybe it really was all one big scam.

malchior wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:25 am GOP congresswoman claims ‘so many’ mass murderers ‘end up being Democrats’

Rep. Claudia Tenney, a Republican from New York, claimed in a radio interview Wednesday that “so many” people who commit mass murders “end up being Democrats.”

Tenney, a first-term congresswoman and staunch supporter of the Second Amendment, made the controversial remark while discussing last week’s school shooting in Parkland, Fla., which left 17 people dead.

Speaking to host Fred Dicker on Albany radio station WGDJ, Tenney said she feared “a lot of these legal gun owners are going to be targeted now,” even though “in their demographic they have the least amount of crimes than virtually any other demographic.”

She then turned around - the same day - and admonished liberals for "politicizing tragedies".

In a statement Wednesday night, Tenney said her comments were taken out of context.

“I am fed up with the media and liberals attempting to politicize tragedies and demonize law-abiding gun owners and conservative Americans every time there is a horrible tragedy,” she said.

“While we know the perpetrators of these atrocities have a wide variety of political views, my comments are in response to a question about the failure to prosecute illegal gun crime. I will continue to stand up for law-abiding citizens who are smeared by anti-gun liberal elitists.”

The mental gymnastics are truly astounding.

msteelers wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:42 amAlthough there was one moment where Rubio's mic was left on while going to commercial break, and it sounded like he was asking a student if he was an actor. So maybe it really was all one big scam.

The kids are a scam? I can tell you with certainty that this area has been devastated and overwhelmed with funerals, sometimes multiple in a day. I guess people and kids I've known for over 18 years are all actors too.

Jag wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:49 am

msteelers wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:42 amAlthough there was one moment where Rubio's mic was left on while going to commercial break, and it sounded like he was asking a student if he was an actor. So maybe it really was all one big scam.

The kids are a scam? I can tell you with certainty that this area has been devastated and overwhelmed with funerals, sometimes multiple in a day. I guess people and kids I've known for over 18 years are all actors too.

Just to be clear, I in no way think the kids are a scam. I'm sorry if my attempt at snark came across in poor taste.

It's easy to hold fast to our ideals and criticize others until a political issue becomes real for your family or community.

The Republicans and NRA have to contend with the people who have become collateral damage to their Second Amendment views. Maybe it takes less conservative judges or a Constitutional Amendment. But there are already too many people whose lives are deeply affected by these regular tragedies. They vote.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 7002813440

I never said “give teachers guns” like was stated on Fake News @CNN & @NBC. What I said was to look at the possibility of giving “concealed guns to gun adept teachers with military or special training experience - only the best. 20% of teachers, a lot, would now be able to

I never said give them guns. That's FAKE NEWS. I said...give them guns.

WTF?

I think we MAY be seeing the start of a sea change, here. I'm not optimistic, though, based on recent history. In fact, regulations are LOOSENING in general, not tightening, and projected to continue to do so. Look at what is actually passing at the federal and state level, not the speeches made or the rhetoric.

OTOH, I think the greed of the NRA and people that support them and their radical position might have crossed the line. For years, people have wanted better regulation, and the NRA lobby and voters not only did nothing, but as mentioned, pushed HARDER to loosen up laws. If this current movement turns out the way I am hoping, they will regret not their unwillingness to even come to the table to discuss reasonable measures.

When middle school kids are walking out around the country on an issue, we have FAILED them. We, as the so called adults, have failed to make them feel safe in their schools. And worse, we don't seem to care that they are being shot up. The answers are:
1. It's too hard!
2. It won't work!
3. The answer is MORE guns!
4. It's not really that bad, I mean, CARS!!1

What a bunch of cowardly bullshit. Just say "I LIKE MY GUNS, FUCK YOU KIDS" which is what 1-4 translates to when you get down to it.

Meanwhile our President's response? Arm the teachers and JANITORS. That is a very mature, reasoned answer. I'm sure that will work really well.

Skinypupy wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:15 am https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 7002813440

I never said “give teachers guns” like was stated on Fake News @CNN & @NBC. What I said was to look at the possibility of giving “concealed guns to gun adept teachers with military or special training experience - only the best. 20% of teachers, a lot, would now be able to

I never said give them guns. That's FAKE NEWS. I said...give them guns.

WTF?

No. No. Clearly he means give the Teachers who specialized in the Gun Expert feat guns. They are a new class called Defensicators. Duh.

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:23 am What a bunch of cowardly bullshit. Just say "I LIKE MY GUNS, FUCK YOU KIDS" which is what 1-4 translates to when you get down to it.

Yes, it's just like that.

noxiousdog wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:58 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:23 am What a bunch of cowardly bullshit. Just say "I LIKE MY GUNS, FUCK YOU KIDS" which is what 1-4 translates to when you get down to it.

Yes, it's just like that.

That is the message received, when the answer to unacceptable gun violence is LOOSENING gun laws. Especially when it happens way too often to kids who have no political voice or vote.

malchior wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:51 am No. No. Clearly he means give the Teachers who specialized in the Gun Expert feat guns. They are a new class called Defensicators. Duh.

Defenducators.

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:03 pm

malchior wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:51 am No. No. Clearly he means give the Teachers who specialized in the Gun Expert feat guns. They are a new class called Defensicators. Duh.

Defenducators.

Defeducators.

Unagi wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:27 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:03 pm

malchior wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:51 am No. No. Clearly he means give the Teachers who specialized in the Gun Expert feat guns. They are a new class called Defensicators. Duh.

Defenducators.

Defeducators.

Mr. Fed would not approve.

One big issue with arming teachers is that it places guns in the school. Teachers aren't cops. They haven't developed the kind of awareness that is needed to retain a firearm by reacting with injurious force in the split second it takes for a student to grab it out of their belt, even with retention holsters (and retention becomes even more difficulty if the guns are carried concealed.) In fact, I'd think that a teacher's instincts could actually prevent them from reacting in a situation where the correct response is to injure a student to retain control of a weapon. And we won't even talk about the average middle aged teacher getting into a wrestling match with a 17-year-old football player.

It gives potential access to firearms to all students, and does so continuously. That means shootings can happen in the moment, rather than requiring premeditation (and second thoughts.)

Introducing firearms into a crowd creates a whole new set of issues.

Yeah, to boil down Blackhawk's comments (and similar ones I've seen elsewhere)--arming teachers substantially increases the risk to students.

It's a nonsensical idea that has literally no value in pursuing whatsoever and needs to be called out as such whenever it's posed.

Funny hearing you guys say that after reading an article recently on what a bunch of fat slobs NY cops are.

Sad to see you stereotype teachers that way.

There are people who would be good at it and those who wouldn't be. Whether they are teachers or not is irrelevant.

It could be a good idea if and only if like air marshals they were well trained and supported.

September 13, 2016

A teacher at a Pennsylvania Christian school accidently left her loaded pistol in a bathroom, where elementary school children found it, Pennsylvania State Police said Tuesday.

Beth Jean Dixon, 63, put her holstered pistol on a toilet tank when she used the unisex, one-toilet bathroom Aug. 25 at Cumberland Christian School, in Chambersburg, police said. They said she forgot about it and left.

May 1, 2015

U.S. Capitol Police officers assigned to the security details of the top two Republicans in Congress mistakenly left their Glock pistols in bathroom stalls in two separate recent incidents, according to a congressional source familiar with an internal investigation into the embarrassing mishaps.
...
The second incident happened in March, when a member of House Speaker John Boehner's police detail left a gun after using a toilet in the speaker's suite of offices in the Capitol. The gun, which CQ/Roll said was loaded, was found by a young child, two congressional sources told CNN.

Marshals, you say?

April 22, 2017

A federal air marshal on a transatlantic flight left her loaded service weapon in the airplane's bathroom, where it was discovered by a passenger who gave it to a crew member before it was returned to the federal agent, CNN has learned.
...
A former federal air marshal familiar with the situation told CNN that newly hired air marshals do not currently receive on-the-job training and said this incident might have been avoided if the individual had been paired with a senior air marshal.
...
John Casaretti, president of the Air Marshal Association and a former air marshal, told CNN the TSA should implement additional training for newly hired air marshals.
...
The Federal Air Marshal Service has long been criticized for poor management and lack of proof that what they do -- fly undercover to monitor for and respond to threats -- significantly improves security. CNN has been unable to find a single incident in which a federal air marshal deterred or intervened in a terrorist plot since the organization was ramped up after the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:35 pm Funny hearing you guys say that after reading an article recently on what a bunch of fat slobs NY cops are.

Sad to see you stereotype teachers that way.

There are people who would be good at it and those who wouldn't be. Whether they are teachers or not is irrelevant.

It could be a good idea if and only if like air marshals they were well trained and supported.

Arming teachers is a half-assed, money saving option. It wouldn't be like having air Marshals in schools, it would be like arming flight attendants instead of having air marshals.

Trump wrote:What I said was to look at the possibility of giving “concealed guns to gun adept teachers with military or special training experience - only the best. 20% of teachers, a lot,

Ignoring the fact that he thinks that there are "concealed guns" that you can just hand out, it's a school. Everyone will know who the armed teachers are in a matter if days. They will print and kids will know. And unless 20% of our teachers are already "only the best", we'd end up hiring educators on their defensive handgun skills rather than their teaching skills. It's absurd. You want guns in schools, you have to pay the premium for full-time, dedicated people to carry them. Not pawn it off on already burdened teachers.

Rip, like I said, it's nonsensical. Your assertions are simply incorrect. There is no reality in which, on the whole, arming teachers improves safety of the student population.

It's not a thing, trained or not, overseen or not, well-funded or not.

It's not a thing.

I suspect we're about to find out if it's a thing or not.

Or at least, they're going to try and find out. I'm willing to bet there's a pretty widespread pushback from all corners if they try and implement an "arm the teachers" policy.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:50 pm Rip, like I said, it's nonsensical. Your assertions are simply incorrect. There is no reality in which, on the whole, arming teachers improves safety of the student population.

It's not a thing, trained or not, overseen or not, well-funded or not.

It's not a thing.

The NYPD shooting accuracy in gunfights is 18%. It's probably similar with other PDs. But i'm sure teachers will have a better ratio than one of the countries largest police forces.