Octopus Overlords

The Greek word that is translated as carpenter in both Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 is tekton. It is important to note that the 1611 KJV Bible and all of our modern Bible translated tekton as carpenter. Yet, many Christians claim that Joseph and Jesus were masons or metallurgists. Lets examine the evidence.

Evidence From Biblical Greek Scholars
Verlyn D. Verbrugge explains that tekton could refer to a carpenter, stone mason or metallurgist in classical Greek as well as in the Old and New Testaments. Here are two quotes that introduce the meaning of this word.

In cl. Greek tekton means a craftsman or builder in wood, stone or metal.
Though carpenter is the common rendering here, tekton can also mean mason . . .1
J. I. Packer also states that tekton means ” craftsman or builder in wood, stone or metal.”2

But Louw and Nida state that the meaning of the word tekton is simpler,

There is every reason to believe that in biblical times one who was regarded as a tekton would be skilled in the use of wood and stone and possibly even metal.3

Danker and Bauer make the point that tekton usually or primarily referred to a woodworker. Stone mason or metal worker was not the primary meaning.

“. . . one who constructs, builder or carpenter” and “one who works with wood, in contrast to a worker in bronze.”4

Balz and Schneider cite many references that indicate the most common meaning of the Greek word tekton in the time of Christ was a carpenter. They state,

Τέκτων refers to “one who makes, produces” (Latin faber), esp. when referring to woodworking (cf. Homer Il. 6.315; Plato R x.597d; Josephus Ant. xv.390; τέκτων ξύλων και τέκτων λίθων, 2 Kgdms 5:11; cf. 1 Christian 22:15; τέκτων και ἀρχιτέκτων, Sir 38:27)5

Moulton and Milligan, referring to tekton, agree with this comment,

The ordinary limitation of this word to “a worker in wood,” “a carpenter,” as in Mat 13:55, Mk 6:3, is supported by P Fay 110 (A.D. 94).6

Then the authors continue to provide numerous references from the papyri to support this conclusion.

Their conclusion is also supported by the early church father Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165). He gives strong reason to believe that Joseph and Jesus were carpenters.

And when Jesus came to the Jordan, He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and yokes . . .)7

Justin Martyr, who lived very close to the time of Christ, understood that Jesus was a carpenter.

Conclusion:
If Justin Martyr is correct, then Joseph and Jesus were primarily carpenters and as Lou and Nida have stated they probably also worked with masonry and metal in order to make items of wood. Many modern woodworkers also have secondary skills in masonry and metal since items constructed primarily of wood often have parts made of metal or stone or must be secured to something else with metal or stone.

Whatever skills Joseph and Jesus had they were hard working men. They were laborers and not men of the aristocracy. Most likely their primary skill was that of a carpenter as evidenced by the historical data above. John Nolland in his commentary on Matthew provides the best conclusion,

A carpenter (τέκτων) was typically a woodworking craftsman who built furniture and utensils, doors, and door frames, and prepared roofing beams; he may at times have doubled as a brick mason.8

Max Peck wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:34 pm

Rumpy wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:29 pm

Max Peck wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:25 pm

Rumpy wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:14 pm Yes, they do. They've given him the job of mason rather than carpenter in the movie. I wish I was kidding. A change for the sake of a change.

Just to be clear, are you saying that they made him a stoneworker rather than a woodworker (i.e. a mason, but at least an occupation that existed at the time) or did they make him a member of a Freemason fraternal organization (i.e. a Mason, a member of an organization that wouldn't exist for more than another millenium)? One of those is a much larger and more bizarre change to the traditional story than the other.

Heh, you know, I went back and looked at the comment, and I realized what you meant about the stray M. Good catch! Yes they made him a regular stone worker, although the word mason was thrown about in professions such as these. It still doesn't make it very accurate.

Not so much a catch as a result of how my sense of humor is wired.

Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:34 pm Apparently Joseph is a mason is not something they made up.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q ... allurgist/

...

So maybe the people who make that show is Christians that think tekton = mason instead of carpenter.

But still using bible as the only source of "historical facts" is questionable. It is like if we're using a biography of Trump written by his MAGA followers as source of facts about Trump.

hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:37 pm But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?

Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:34 pm Apparently Joseph is a mason is not something they made up.





So maybe the people who make that show is Christians that think tekton = mason instead of carpenter.

But still using bible as the only source of "historical facts" is questionable. It is like if we're using a biography of Trump written by his MAGA followers as source of facts about Trump.

hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:37 pm But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?

hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:48 pm In all seriousness, I try to get my history from PBS and books. If it’s on Netflix or has the name Ridley Scott attached to it, I tend to discount it as factual in anything but the most superficial of aspects.

Jaymann wrote:

hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:37 pm But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?

How do you think she got up to the clouds for that immaculate conception action?

disarm wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:30 pm

Jaymann wrote:

hepcat wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 8:37 pm But how do we explain the inclusion of Mary’s invisible plane and lasso of truth?

How do you think she got up to the clouds for that immaculate conception action?

Religious dogma correction time!

The "immaculate conception" does not refer to Mary becoming pregnant with Jesus without having sex. That is the belief of the"virgin birth."

The "immaculate conception" refers to Mary being conceived and born without the burden of Original Sin, making her a pure vessel to bear the son of God.

Max Peck wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 10:11 pm An origin story where Anthony Hopkins earns a paycheck, Mary is a hottie, Joseph is a stoner and Marvel's Lucifer makes a surprise cameo does sound like a good time. I can't wait until it gets the MST3K/RiffTrax treatment.

Victoria Raverna wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 7:42 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 11:43 am

Victoria Raverna wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:39 pm I just find it strange to insist on historical accuracy when it is more of a legend than a history.

Look at Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. It's fiction, and it's become legend. If you were making a film of it, wouldn't there be value in making the elements around that central story historically accurate?

Why? If we can have a movie about Abraham Lincoln hunting vampires and have no problem with it, why Julius Caesar's story has to be "historically accurate" by following Shakespeare's version?

Victoria Raverna wrote:How did she avoid the burden of the Original Sin?

disarm wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:22 am Because a bunch of old men said so.

Kraken wrote:

disarm wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 1:22 am Because a bunch of old men said so.

If I understand that correctly, immaculate conception means Mary's parents copulated without enjoying it. Plausible, but hardly unique.

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.

Jaymann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:28 am

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.

Did they address the issue of Mary having a baby without Joseph doing the horizontal bop?

Rumpy wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:48 am

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.

Thanks for taking one for the team, Max. Sounds like they could be possibly planning a sequel

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:51 am

Jaymann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:28 am

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.

Did they address the issue of Mary having a baby without Joseph doing the horizontal bop?

Angels and holy spirit. Same for Mary's mom, from what I could tell.

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:55 am

Rumpy wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:48 am

Max Peck wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 12:07 am I watched Mary today, and it's fine. I imagine that most die-hard fans are going to prefer the book, but what are ya gonna do, amirite? The ending was a little odd and didn't make much sense, but aside from that I don't see any real problems with the film.

The whole Joseph mason-vs-carpenter issue is a nothingburger. The film shows him as some sort of construction laborer (calling him a mason is a stretch), but it also ends long before Jesus is grown up and doing his thing, so there's plenty of time for Joe to settle down and start a woodworking business. It isn't like any of us is one and only one thing for our entire life.

Thanks for taking one for the team, Max. Sounds like they could be possibly planning a sequel

Anna, the old lady that lived in the temple, was giving off some strong Bene Gesserit vibes, so maybe they already have made the sequel.

Jaymann wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 1:52 am So Joseph didn't suspect the camel salesman?