Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:30 pm
It's a lot of work for the House to start articles of impeachment and frankly I doubt it can happen in a timespan to matter to this moment.
If they can get a Supreme Court Justice nominated, heard and seated ~7 days after Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I'm confident they can figure this out.
The House has to draw up the Articles which is the problem. Then there has to be a vote, and then the Articles have to be sent to the Senate. If it was only up to the Senate, it could be done in 24 hours most likely.
They have draft articles today (at least Omar has circulated some). The House could impeach Trump within 24 hours I'm sure.
Of course, once it goes to the Senate it's up to McConnell. Nothing's happening in the Senate unless McConnell wants it to. I still think it's unlikely that McConnell and enough others get on board for removal, but that's less crazy than it used to be (and it really doesn't hurt that it would take Trump out of the hair of ambitious GOP types for 2024).
Max Peck wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm
Parler exists to allow right-wing extremists to network when they get kicked off the mainstream social media. They're not going to block Der Führer if he graces them with his presence.
That's fine, as long as they don't discuss the implementation of violence or credibly threaten violence. Which apparently was done on the site, with the site owner saying he's not there to police speech. Except when his site gets shut down for failing to do so, maybe he'll have something different to say or maybe he'll just set up another site to not police speech and on and on. We'll see.
Parler would not be held responsible for the speech on their site. That's actually the focus of the debate around "Section 230", which effectively insulates online hosts (like Parler, Twitter, Facebook, and OctopusOverlords) from liability from content posted by users.
Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:30 pm
It's a lot of work for the House to start articles of impeachment and frankly I doubt it can happen in a timespan to matter to this moment.
If they can get a Supreme Court Justice nominated, heard and seated ~7 days after Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I'm confident they can figure this out.
The House has to draw up the Articles which is the problem. Then there has to be a vote, and then the Articles have to be sent to the Senate. If it was only up to the Senate, it could be done in 24 hours most likely.
They have draft articles today (at least Omar has circulated some). The House could impeach Trump within 24 hours I'm sure.
Of course, once it goes to the Senate it's up to McConnell. Nothing's happening in the Senate unless McConnell wants it to. I still think it's unlikely that McConnell and enough others get on board for removal, but that's less crazy than it used to be (and it really doesn't hurt that it would take Trump out of the hair of ambitious GOP types for 2024).
I didn't get into this factor in my post above but even so there are significant speed bumps even if McConnell was gung ho to do it. Unless we throw the concept of Due Process out. I don't think anyone is excited by that idea.
Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:36 pmThe House has to draw up the Articles which is the problem. Then there has to be a vote, and then the Articles have to be sent to the Senate. If it was only up to the Senate, it could be done in 24 hours most likely.
Time isn't the issue here - it's been (and always has been) political will.
Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:42 pm
Does anyone know when the new Senators are seated?
The new senators from the November elections have already been sworn in. But in Georgia, the results have to be certified first, and their secretary of state has until 1/22 to do so (not to say that he wouldn't do it sooner, but Republicans are probably going to sue for "election fraud" and drag out the process).
Max Peck wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm
Parler exists to allow right-wing extremists to network when they get kicked off the mainstream social media. They're not going to block Der Führer if he graces them with his presence.
That's fine, as long as they don't discuss the implementation of violence or credibly threaten violence. Which apparently was done on the site, with the site owner saying he's not there to police speech. Except when his site gets shut down for failing to do so, maybe he'll have something different to say or maybe he'll just set up another site to not police speech and on and on. We'll see.
Parler would not be held responsible for the speech on their site. That's actually the focus of the debate around "Section 230", which effectively insulates online hosts (like Parler, Twitter, Facebook, and OctopusOverlords) from liability from content posted by users.
Max Peck wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm
Parler exists to allow right-wing extremists to network when they get kicked off the mainstream social media. They're not going to block Der Führer if he graces them with his presence.
That's fine, as long as they don't discuss the implementation of violence or credibly threaten violence. Which apparently was done on the site, with the site owner saying he's not there to police speech. Except when his site gets shut down for failing to do so, maybe he'll have something different to say or maybe he'll just set up another site to not police speech and on and on. We'll see.
Parler would not be held responsible for the speech on their site. That's actually the focus of the debate around "Section 230", which effectively insulates online hosts (like Parler, Twitter, Facebook, and OctopusOverlords) from liability from content posted by users.
Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:42 pm
Does anyone know when the new Senators are seated?
The new senators from the November elections have already been sworn in. But in Georgia, the results have to be certified first, and their secretary of state has until 1/22 to do so (not to say that he wouldn't do it sooner, but Republicans are probably going to sue for "election fraud" and drag out the process).
Franken's election got dragged into June/July of the year he was elected IIRC. It might be awhile.
Kurth wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:18 pm
As much as I want to see Trump removed (via impeachment or the 25th, whatever is more feasible), I hate to see the Squad at the forefront here. Having AOC, Omar, Tlaib and Pressley leading the charge is not a good look for obvious reasons. Why can't the Dems get their fucking act together?
It's like the clown show never stops . . .
You mean the GOP clown show I'm sure. I don't see the squad urging insurrection do you? I don't see the squad trying to invalidate people's votes do you? I don't see the squad telling mobs how much they love them do you?
You really must see things that somehow I don't see? I wonder why? My main source of information is Pulitzer Prize winning journalism, what's yours?
It's optics. "The Squad" have been extremely reactionary to Trump. They've been calling for his head constantly, and they get an automatic defensive reaction from the Republicans and their voters, while the centrists tend to tune them out. Them calling for this now isn't all that meaningful. It's expected, and it's more likely to be ignored. It would be much more impactful - and potentially successful - if it came from elsewhere.
Breaking WaPo: Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao will resign, the first to leave Trump's Cabinet after he incited mob that attacked Capitol.
Cowardice. Any cabinet member that is appalled by this should be pushing to implement the 25th, not resigning.
No one on that cabinet got the job due to their exemplary courage or highly ethical conduct. Chao is a perfect example of the avarice and self-service that drew members in and kept them there until there was nothing left to gain.
Fuck her and may history's verdict be the one she deserves.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:42 pm
Does anyone know when the new Senators are seated?
The new senators from the November elections have already been sworn in. But in Georgia, the results have to be certified first, and their secretary of state has until 1/22 to do so (not to say that he wouldn't do it sooner, but Republicans are probably going to sue for "election fraud" and drag out the process).
But they probably won't get a recount (which would delay things) because it looks like both candidates will end up winning by greater than the 0.5% threshold that allows for recounts.
Max Peck wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm
Parler exists to allow right-wing extremists to network when they get kicked off the mainstream social media. They're not going to block Der Führer if he graces them with his presence.
That's fine, as long as they don't discuss the implementation of violence or credibly threaten violence. Which apparently was done on the site, with the site owner saying he's not there to police speech. Except when his site gets shut down for failing to do so, maybe he'll have something different to say or maybe he'll just set up another site to not police speech and on and on. We'll see.
Section 230 - Trump's favorite whipping boy - provides vast protection to sites not being responsible for the content posted on them. Unless he's purposefully asking for the stuff to be posted or participating, he's probably fine.
Max Peck wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm
Parler exists to allow right-wing extremists to network when they get kicked off the mainstream social media. They're not going to block Der Führer if he graces them with his presence.
That's fine, as long as they don't discuss the implementation of violence or credibly threaten violence. Which apparently was done on the site, with the site owner saying he's not there to police speech. Except when his site gets shut down for failing to do so, maybe he'll have something different to say or maybe he'll just set up another site to not police speech and on and on. We'll see.
Parler would not be held responsible for the speech on their site. That's actually the focus of the debate around "Section 230", which effectively insulates online hosts (like Parler, Twitter, Facebook, and OctopusOverlords) from liability from content posted by users.
Lorini wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:30 pm
It's a lot of work for the House to start articles of impeachment and frankly I doubt it can happen in a timespan to matter to this moment.
If they can get a Supreme Court Justice nominated, heard and seated ~7 days after Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I'm confident they can figure this out.
The House has to draw up the Articles which is the problem. Then there has to be a vote, and then the Articles have to be sent to the Senate. If it was only up to the Senate, it could be done in 24 hours most likely.
They have draft articles today (at least Omar has circulated some). The House could impeach Trump within 24 hours I'm sure.
Of course, once it goes to the Senate it's up to McConnell. Nothing's happening in the Senate unless McConnell wants it to. I still think it's unlikely that McConnell and enough others get on board for removal, but that's less crazy than it used to be (and it really doesn't hurt that it would take Trump out of the hair of ambitious GOP types for 2024).
I didn't get into this factor in my post above but even so there are significant speed bumps even if McConnell was gung ho to do it. Unless we throw the concept of Due Process out. I don't think anyone is excited by that idea.
What are the speed bumps? McConnell made sure that there was a pretty expedited 'trial' in Trump's first impeachment, and while this would be even more expedited than that, seems like the key steps are:
(1) Preparing articles of impeachment
(2) Convening the House to vote on them
(3) Transmitting them to the Senate
(4) Having a hearing / trial with statements from House managers and from Trump;
(5) Senate vote
Honestly seems like if there were the will to do it then it could be done by the end of Monday. Which yeah, not 100% ideal, but when you're talking about the dangers from Trump and the timeframe until it's moot, and when the key impeachable offense occurred in public....seems fine to me.
Max Peck wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm
Parler exists to allow right-wing extremists to network when they get kicked off the mainstream social media. They're not going to block Der Führer if he graces them with his presence.
That's fine, as long as they don't discuss the implementation of violence or credibly threaten violence. Which apparently was done on the site, with the site owner saying he's not there to police speech. Except when his site gets shut down for failing to do so, maybe he'll have something different to say or maybe he'll just set up another site to not police speech and on and on. We'll see.
Section 230 - Trump's favorite whipping boy - provides vast protection to sites not being responsible for the content posted on them. Unless he's purposefully asking for the stuff to be posted or participating, he's probably fine.
Exactly. There aren't too many levers here. It's privately funded. It has Sec 230 protection. Its reputation might get dragged through the mud and possibly banned *outside* our borders but that is about it. In exchange, they'll need to be responsive to requests for evidence from law enforcement with the proper warrants. That is probably what'll get them.
Last edited by malchior on Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
El Guapo wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:57 pm(4) Having a hearing / trial with statements from House managers and from Trump;
This is the speed bump. He has a right to defend himself. The estimates I heard were they wouldn't be able to get the trial done for at least 2-3 weeks.
Honestly seems like if there were the will to do it then it could be done by the end of Monday. Which yeah, not 100% ideal, but when you're talking about the dangers from Trump and the timeframe until it's moot, and when the key impeachable offense occurred in public....seems fine to me.
I'll dig it up if I can but several experts were on tv laying out why conviction in the timeframe available was not realistic. I think you still impeach though just in case.
Edit: Think about this from a pure Due Process point of view. Can you get away with running a trial that throws out all the normal rules? Maybe but it isn't a simple question. And that has significant potential repercussions for appearances about rule of law too.
Last edited by malchior on Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The WH is officially blaming Antifa “terrorists” (in a statement released today but dated, weirdly January 5).
I don't know, It seems he's responding to actions that took place this year and around the country. Nowhere does it say anything about yesterday's events.
True, it doesn't blame them directly for the Capitol. But to release this news today when the Right is desperate to imagine an Antifa false flag op is precisely calculated to encourage that fantasy.
“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.”
Leopards, faces, etc.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
I don't know. He's facing a lot of ridicule right now. My guess is he'll either say "screw it, I wanna be heard" and resign; or he'll go underground and say nothing until Jan. 21st.
El Guapo wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:57 pm(4) Having a hearing / trial with statements from House managers and from Trump;
This is the speed bump. He has a right to defend himself. The estimates I heard were they wouldn't be able to get the trial done for at least 2-3 weeks.
Honestly seems like if there were the will to do it then it could be done by the end of Monday. Which yeah, not 100% ideal, but when you're talking about the dangers from Trump and the timeframe until it's moot, and when the key impeachable offense occurred in public....seems fine to me.
I'll dig it up if I can but several experts were on tv laying out why conviction in the timeframe available was not realistic. I think you still impeach though just in case.
Edit: Think about this from a pure Due Process point of view. Can you get away with running a trial that throws out all the normal rules? Maybe but it isn't a simple question. And that has significant potential repercussions for appearances about rule of law too.
A criminal trial, no. But this is an impeachment trial, which is a totally different animal. It's totally unclear what due process rights are for a president being impeached by Congress. To take an extreme example, suppose Trump were publicly saying that he's been in touch with the commander of the 13th airborne and he plans to march with them on Congress to seize the Capitol building, arrest congressional leaders, and proclaim himself Emperor. Would Congress be required to wait to schedule a trial before removing him from office?
That's not quite the situation we have, but given that Trump just led a putsch, and given the very live fears about what he'll do next, it's not that far removed from where we are.
Max Peck wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm
Parler exists to allow right-wing extremists to network when they get kicked off the mainstream social media. They're not going to block Der Führer if he graces them with his presence.
That's fine, as long as they don't discuss the implementation of violence or credibly threaten violence. Which apparently was done on the site, with the site owner saying he's not there to police speech. Except when his site gets shut down for failing to do so, maybe he'll have something different to say or maybe he'll just set up another site to not police speech and on and on. We'll see.
Parler would not be held responsible for the speech on their site. That's actually the focus of the debate around "Section 230", which effectively insulates online hosts (like Parler, Twitter, Facebook, and OctopusOverlords) from liability from content posted by users.
That's a white paper with possible suggestions - not anything that's been successfully tried in court. I didn't read all the foot notes, but a lot of it actually seems to suggest this would be an uphill battle.
Jaymann wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:24 pm
Pelosi is now calling for the 25th Amendment to be invoked. Failing that, impeachment.
She also says she wants an answer from Pence about the 25A today.
I'll be honest, while I'm certainly not going to object if they invoke the 25th amendment as to Trump... I think it's pretty clear that this is not what it was intended for. He's no more 'disabled' than he was at this time last year, or really at any point since January 20, 2017. He's the same ruthless asshole he's always been, it's just that it's now getting to the direct violence stage.
Impeachment and removal seems like the right remedy here.
El Guapo wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:13 pmA criminal trial, no. But this is an impeachment trial, which is a totally different animal. It's totally unclear what due process rights are for a president being impeached by Congress.
They are what we define in the Senate rules right now. That's the point - which is expanded on below.
To take an extreme example, suppose Trump were publicly saying that he's been in touch with the commander of the 13th airborne and he plans to march with them on Congress to seize the Capitol building, arrest congressional leaders, and proclaim himself Emperor. Would Congress be required to wait to schedule a trial before removing him from office?
From what I heard, unfortunately yes as the rules are written right now in the Senate. They'd need to change the rules in the Senate first. I guess if it was an extreme emergency they'd hand wave things through. Is this that moment? I dunno. But I heard clearly today that Conviction isn't realistic as the rules are right now in the time frame we have. They noted that the trial could be after he left to make sure he can't run again. We will see but it really sounded like conviction was highly, highly unlikely. To put it in context, the trial earlier this year was almost 3 weeks and they had alloted 7 days for witnesses which they didn't use. And there was a gap of a few weeks between articles of impeachment and the trial. This isn't the right mechanism for an emergency.
That's not quite the situation we have, but given that Trump just led a putsch, and given the very live fears about what he'll do next, it's not that far removed from where we are.
Right. That is why I mentioned earlier we have a potentially slow as molasses process and an expedited process that requires unreasonable turn-coating. We should think about something more streamlined...for next time.
Jaymann wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:24 pm
Pelosi is now calling for the 25th Amendment to be invoked. Failing that, impeachment.
She also says she wants an answer from Pence about the 25A today.
FFS. Just go for it. If you can't accelerate the trial you can hold the trial afterwards. If the 25th Amendment comes in take that off-ramp. If both hit at the same time prioritize the one that gets rid of him fastest.
Trump and his crew getting down to some Laura Branigan while watching rioters storm the Capitol. As people died, as our institutions suffered breaches not seen since the 1800s, they were dancing and taking selfies.
