Octopus Overlords

I still can't stop being terrified that the GOP response to this pandemic is to close their eyes, hold their breath, and rush headlong into it.

The only time I saw that work was when someone opened a door to a chemical storage room, stepped in, and collapsed. One of our HazMat responders was standing nearby and knew what she was hit with - so he took a deep breath and ran in, grabbed her, and pulled her out. She would have died if he hadn't. One of the tanks in the room had a small leak that had filled the room with gas.

Holding your breath only works until you need to breathe again. We can only really safely do that as long as we're all moving slowly, being careful, and using appropriate precautions.

I've already planned to be over-cautious in the wake of the re-openings. Let the nutjobs get together and party - I'm staying status quo for a few weeks.

This is normal. Trump admin shelves detailed reopening plan from CDC

A document created by the nation’s top disease investigators with step-by-step advice to local authorities on how and when to reopen restaurants and other public places during the still-raging outbreak has been shelved by the Trump administration.

The 17-page report by a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention team, titled “Guidance for Implementing the Opening Up America Again Framework,” was researched and written to help faith leaders, business owners, educators and state and local officials as they begin to reopen.

It was supposed to be published last Friday, but agency scientists were told the guidance “would never see the light of day,” according to a CDC official. The official was not authorized to talk to reporters and spoke to The Associated Press on the condition of anonymity.

I read a random person this morning state they intend to treat the would as stay at home as possible until hospitals allow visitors. I figure that and dentists opening will be my canaries. If not safe enough for someone to put their hand in my mouth or to even enter a building with sick people then it's not safe enough for to gallivant.

I still need to get masks and sanitizer. At this point, I'm hoping I'm still work from home next so I can order some from online. I never have stuff sent to my house and I don't wanna start going to work without some sort of protection.

Skinypupy wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 8:58 am This is normal. Trump admin shelves detailed reopening plan from CDC

A document created by the nation’s top disease investigators with step-by-step advice to local authorities on how and when to reopen restaurants and other public places during the still-raging outbreak has been shelved by the Trump administration.

The 17-page report by a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention team, titled “Guidance for Implementing the Opening Up America Again Framework,” was researched and written to help faith leaders, business owners, educators and state and local officials as they begin to reopen.

It was supposed to be published last Friday, but agency scientists were told the guidance “would never see the light of day,” according to a CDC official. The official was not authorized to talk to reporters and spoke to The Associated Press on the condition of anonymity.

It's largely irrelevant as well. Each state is going to do it's own thing and ignore the Trump administration's advice anyway. Since he never led the response and left everyone to fend for themselves, this isn't a surprise to me.

Would I like to see some genuine leadership from the highest levels? Hell yes. Are we bound to get it? Hell no. Leadership implies responsibility. Our fraud-in-chief is only keen on passing responsibility out so it doesn't stick to him.

We have a community FB page that I glace at occasionally. It used to be a helpful resource for things that were going on in the neighborhood, but has now (unsurprisingly) become a forum for the airing of conservative grievances.

I learned yesterday that most of my neighbors have now decided to boycott Costco due to their new mask policy. Because it's "TYRANNY", or something. One person actually called it "unconstitutional", which I found hilarious.

I'm genuinely curious why mask = tyranny, but "no shirt, no shoes, no service" is totally fine.

Paingod wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:17 am It's largely irrelevant as well. Each state is going to do it's own thing and ignore the Trump administration's advice anyway. Since he never led the response and left everyone to fend for themselves, this isn't a surprise to me.

It's been pretty clear for some time the executive office relationship to the pandemic is purely for political theater. I started out angry at dissolving of the task force but then I thought, what has it done but limit the CDC and WHO while give directives to homeland to pit the states against each other and block their ability to respond? Dissolve away! Please. Maybe just maybe we'll get doing a better job FEMA without DHS and theJared Kushner volunteer squad putting up roadblocks.

In good news, the Supreme Court declined to lift Governor Wolf's stay-at-home order here in Pennsylvania.

Hopefully that tamps down some of the "unconstitutional" fervor that was appearing across my Facebook feed.

LordMortis wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:25 am

Paingod wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:17 am It's largely irrelevant as well. Each state is going to do it's own thing and ignore the Trump administration's advice anyway. Since he never led the response and left everyone to fend for themselves, this isn't a surprise to me.

It's been pretty clear for some time the executive office relationship to the pandemic is purely for political theater. I started out angry at dissolving of the task force but then I thought, what has it done but limit the CDC and WHO while give directives to homeland to pit the states against each other and block their ability to respond? Dissolve away! Please. Maybe just maybe we'll get doing a better job FEMA without DHS and theJared Kushner volunteer squad putting up roadblocks.

Oh, Kushner and the Grift Squad aren't going anywhere.

This is just Trump cancelling his TV show because it's not fun like he thought it would be.

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 4:29 pm I ordered a pair of scrubs for my new shopping outfit.

My wife, who wears scrubs to work every day, actually goes the opposite direction. If she is going to the store after work she takes civvie clothes to change into beforehand. She thinks she's at risk of getting shot if she gets too close to someone in her scrubs. I don't necessarily agree.

coopasonic wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:30 am

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 4:29 pm I ordered a pair of scrubs for my new shopping outfit.

My wife, who wears scrubs to work every day, actually goes the opposite direction. If she is going to the store after work she takes civvie clothes to change into beforehand. She thinks she's at risk of getting shot if she gets too close to someone in her scrubs. I don't necessarily agree.

I've heard stories about shitty people behaving atrociously to healthcare workers in public. My wife changes her clothes before going shopping.

Jeff V wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:33 am

coopasonic wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:30 am

Isgrimnur wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 4:29 pm I ordered a pair of scrubs for my new shopping outfit.

My wife, who wears scrubs to work every day, actually goes the opposite direction. If she is going to the store after work she takes civvie clothes to change into beforehand. She thinks she's at risk of getting shot if she gets too close to someone in her scrubs. I don't necessarily agree.

I've heard stories about shitty people behaving atrociously to healthcare workers in public. My wife changes her clothes before going shopping.

Yeah, I wouldn't go out of my way to appear to be a nurse. The number off people who may give you a wide berth aren't worth the few who may actually act with hostility.


Hell, I wear regular clothes but I make sure to take my ID off before I hit the grocery on the way home.

So we're back to spitting on soldiers?

Perhaps I'll wait until my LTC comes in to wear them, then.

Holman wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:49 am So we're back to spitting on soldiers?

Our time-honored way of honoring those fighting on the front lines.

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:51 am Perhaps I'll wait until my LTC comes in to wear them, then.

I read that as Lieutenant Colonel and thought it was a good idea to have some backup, but I'm not sure an officer is the way to go.

We haven't even begun to address the mental health burden on front-line workers yet, and now this is percolating through the ranks:

At the end of another long shift treating coronavirus patients, Dr. Hadi Halazun opened his Facebook page to find a man insisting to him that "no one's dying" and that the coronavirus is "fake news" drummed up by the news media.

Hadi tried to engage and explain his firsthand experience with the virus. In reply, another user insinuated that he wasn't a real doctor, saying pictures from his profile showing him at concerts and music festivals proved it.

"I told them: 'I am a real doctor. There are 200 people in my hospital's ICU,'" said Halazun, a cardiologist in New York. "And they said, 'Give me your credentials.' I engaged with them, and they kicked me off their wall."

"I left work and I felt so deflated. I let it get to me."

Smoove_B wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 12:11 pm We haven't even begun to address the mental health burden on front-line workers yet, and now this is percolating through the ranks:

At the end of another long shift treating coronavirus patients, Dr. Hadi Halazun opened his Facebook page to find a man insisting to him that "no one's dying" and that the coronavirus is "fake news" drummed up by the news media.

Hadi tried to engage and explain his firsthand experience with the virus. In reply, another user insinuated that he wasn't a real doctor, saying pictures from his profile showing him at concerts and music festivals proved it.

"I told them: 'I am a real doctor. There are 200 people in my hospital's ICU,'" said Halazun, a cardiologist in New York. "And they said, 'Give me your credentials.' I engaged with them, and they kicked me off their wall."

"I left work and I felt so deflated. I let it get to me."

Yesterday we had about 15 cars from the local disctict police station do a slow drive-by as a thank you for nurses day. Marked and a few unmarked with sirens going. Plus a few ambulances.

It was a nice morale boost for the staff but what got me was all the signs the nurses were holding up thanking them, the first responders.




Not lost on anyone, they had to stop to let an ambulance through to the ER.

Holman wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:49 am So we're back to spitting on soldiers?

I believe xmann had a post about this very thing a month or so ago.

In the old days they'd just stop and pick up people like those fake sign holders and drive them to the mental hospital and check them in. Now we let them do their stupid stuff and spread it.

I wonder how many isolated incidents it will take before we start saying "we shouldn't seek hasty change so soon after such a tragedy"

https://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonal ... ure-2020-5

A woman angry that she could not dine inside an Oklahoma City McDonald's opened fire on the restaurant's employees, shooting three and assaulting another Wednesday evening, police told Business Insider.

All four workers were taken to the hospital with non-life-threatening injuries, the police said.

"She goes into the restaurant and they advised her that the dining area is closed, the drive-thru is the only thing open. And she didn't leave," Capt. Larry Withrow of the Oklahoma City Police Department said in an interview.

The 32-year-old suspect, who was soon located several blocks away while on foot, "got into a physical altercation with one of the employees," Withrow said, continuing: "That employee gets knocked to the ground. The suspect goes out of the restaurant and then comes back in the restaurant with a gun and fires two or three rounds off."

Was talking to a doctor. He was saying that he hates to be a conspiracy theorist but he has seen COVID-19 kill in so many different ways, and heard of more, that he can't help but thinking it's engineered. He said he knows it's crazy talk but he rattled off all the ways it attacks, respiratory/lungs, GI, stroke, neurological/brain, blood cells, etc. I can't remember it all. Now this inflammatory thing in kids?

I have to believe that nature just goes hard.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:14 pm I have to believe that nature just goes hard.

Ask your local dinosaurs about their families' glory days.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:14 pm I have to believe that nature just goes hard.

Yes, that's my take on this. It's a virus that's never been in the human body before. If it was something like MERS that was impacting a smaller proportion of people, the range of symptoms would likely be much more standardized. But because it's now ripping through large numbers of people, there's going to be a much wider range of biological responses to this. My guess is that in years to come we might identify risk factors for the symptomatic outliers (micro-clots, red blood cells being destroyed, dementia, etc...) but right now it's just a matter of trying to keep track of it all and using this new information to help clinicians make better decisions.

Kind of similar to how we originally believed that Lyme Disease caused a bulls-eye rash to form, but in truth, that only happens in about 30% of the people that have it. It can be a useful symptom but it should be the only thing we're looking for. What makes it extra difficult is that COVID-19 causes symptoms we'd expect from a zoonotic illness - fever, body aches, malaise. It's not helpful so we're desperately trying to find something that's universal and quick to help us identify what's happening.

Again, normally fascinating to me. Right now, not so much.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:14 pm Was talking to a doctor. He was saying that he hates to be a conspiracy theorist but he has seen COVID-19 kill in so many different ways, and heard of more, that he can't help but thinking it's engineered. He said he knows it's crazy talk but he rattled off all the ways it attacks, respiratory/lungs, GI, stroke, neurological/brain, blood cells, etc. I can't remember it all. Now this inflammatory thing in kids?

I have to believe that nature just goes hard.

What would be the point of engineering a virus like this? It's not like you could easily target it at just some country / group without it coming back to your people / country / group.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:14 pm Was talking to a doctor. He was saying that he hates to be a conspiracy theorist but he has seen COVID-19 kill in so many different ways, and heard of more, that he can't help but thinking it's engineered. He said he knows it's crazy talk but he rattled off all the ways it attacks, respiratory/lungs, GI, stroke, neurological/brain, blood cells, etc. I can't remember it all. Now this inflammatory thing in kids?

I have to believe that nature just goes hard.

The reason I didn't think it was a bio-weapon is that it's too weak. A weapon doesn't have to kill everyone but this virus isn't even killing a third of who it infects. If I was in charge and this is what my lab produced I'd call it a fail.

It's believable to me that it's something nature produced and after that it was sampled and held in a lab, then it got out. Nature can produce some devastating things, but also some not so devastating things. Of course it could be 'death by a thousand cuts'. Maybe this thing was designed to hang around for a good long while, slowing killing people the entire time? Only time will tell if that's how it plays out.

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:33 pmWhat would be the point of engineering a virus like this? It's not like you could easily target it at just some country / group without it coming back to your people / country / group.

We have nuclear weapons that can never be used because it would effectively mean the end of humanity if they were used. And we don't just have one, we have thousands.

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:33 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:14 pm Was talking to a doctor. He was saying that he hates to be a conspiracy theorist but he has seen COVID-19 kill in so many different ways, and heard of more, that he can't help but thinking it's engineered. He said he knows it's crazy talk but he rattled off all the ways it attacks, respiratory/lungs, GI, stroke, neurological/brain, blood cells, etc. I can't remember it all. Now this inflammatory thing in kids?

I have to believe that nature just goes hard.

What would be the point of engineering a virus like this? It's not like you could easily target it at just some country / group without it coming back to your people / country / group.

Obviously you don't release it unless you have a treatment/vaccine for the ruling elite making the decisions. And if you're the authoritarian type, you really don't mind so much about the plebes taking the brunt of it.

Smoove_B wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 10:55 pm As mentioned up-thread, I fully expect it to be an issue if (when, for those with hope) a vaccination for COVID-19 is developed.

so is your take that a vaccine is not likely to work out, or 'there's no way to know right now'?

COVID-19 has crept into the White House. I've been assuming they're testing everyone who shows up there every morning. While I doubt COVID-19 can survive in the toxic environment inside the president's body, those around him could be at risk since they apparently don't wear masks.



If the Great Leader were to die from this, would it dent the fevered pitch of "resistance to tyranny" - or would he be a martyr and people would scream conspiracy?

hitbyambulance wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:47 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 10:55 pm As mentioned up-thread, I fully expect it to be an issue if (when, for those with hope) a vaccination for COVID-19 is developed.

so is your take that a vaccine is not likely to work out, or 'there's no way to know right now'?

My belief is that we're not going to vaccinate ourselves out of this anytime soon. Maybe we're going to science the shit out of it and get lucky, but I don't realistically see a vaccination being mass-deployed until Fall 2021 at the earliest. And yes, that's assuming scientists somehow figure out how to overcome the inability to ever create a working vaccination for a coronavirus.

I think my core issue is that everyone collectively latched on to this vaccination idea early on and with President TruckNutz blathering about how it's coming by year end, my feeling is that people are less likely then to accept things like continued lock downs, calls for social distancing, aggressive quarantines following contact tracing, widespread use of masks in public at all times for the foreseeable future, modified work/retail arrangements, etc... because the whole time they're thinking, "President Trump said a vaccination is coming soon."

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:33 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:14 pm Was talking to a doctor. He was saying that he hates to be a conspiracy theorist but he has seen COVID-19 kill in so many different ways, and heard of more, that he can't help but thinking it's engineered. He said he knows it's crazy talk but he rattled off all the ways it attacks, respiratory/lungs, GI, stroke, neurological/brain, blood cells, etc. I can't remember it all. Now this inflammatory thing in kids?

I have to believe that nature just goes hard.

What would be the point of engineering a virus like this? It's not like you could easily target it at just some country / group without it coming back to your people / country / group.

What is the point of gas that can blow back towards your own troops or nukes that can poison the atmosphere? And we did create things like a deadlier smallpox.


Or because you can. Not necessarily as a weapon you intend to use but as research for research's sake.

gameoverman wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:35 pmThe reason I didn't think it was a bio-weapon is that it's too weak. A weapon doesn't have to kill everyone but this virus isn't even killing a third of who it infects. If I was in charge and this is what my lab produced I'd call it a fail.

Well, sure. You don't want your warning shot to sink the other ship.

Smoove_B wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 2:15 pm

hitbyambulance wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:47 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 10:55 pm As mentioned up-thread, I fully expect it to be an issue if (when, for those with hope) a vaccination for COVID-19 is developed.

so is your take that a vaccine is not likely to work out, or 'there's no way to know right now'?

My belief is that we're not going to vaccinate ourselves out of this anytime soon. Maybe we're going to science the shit out of it and get lucky, but I don't realistically see a vaccination being mass-deployed until Fall 2021 at the earliest. And yes, that's assuming scientists somehow figure out how to overcome the inability to ever create a working vaccination for a coronavirus.

I think my core issue is that everyone collectively latched on to this vaccination idea early on and with President TruckNutz blathering about how it's coming by year end, my feeling is that people are less likely then to accept things like continued lock downs, calls for social distancing, aggressive quarantines following contact tracing, widespread use of masks in public at all times for the foreseeable future, modified work/retail arrangements, etc... because the whole time they're thinking, "President Trump said a vaccination is coming soon."

Wall Street is saying any time between this summer in the best case and March 2021 worst case. I tend to agree with your Fall 2021 scenario.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 2:27 pm

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:33 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:14 pm Was talking to a doctor. He was saying that he hates to be a conspiracy theorist but he has seen COVID-19 kill in so many different ways, and heard of more, that he can't help but thinking it's engineered. He said he knows it's crazy talk but he rattled off all the ways it attacks, respiratory/lungs, GI, stroke, neurological/brain, blood cells, etc. I can't remember it all. Now this inflammatory thing in kids?

I have to believe that nature just goes hard.

What would be the point of engineering a virus like this? It's not like you could easily target it at just some country / group without it coming back to your people / country / group.

What is the point of gas that can blow back towards your own troops or nukes that can poison the atmosphere? And we did create things like a deadlier smallpox.


Or because you can. Not necessarily as a weapon you intend to use but as research for research's sake.

That's not the same. Gas *can* backfire on your troops if you use it wrong or in the wrong conditions. Nuclear weapons *can* poison the atmosphere if too many are fired. But both can be targeted at the enemy and won't necessarily backfire if used correctly (e.g., chemical weapons have been successfully used on enemy soldiers, nuclear weapons were successfully used by the U.S. against Japan). There's no way to use this coronavirus in any kind of a targeted way.

Now, I could see either this being designed to basically facilitate the aggregation of authoritarian powers, or I suppose (in the 'escaped from a lab scenario') could be this was part of bio-research (say, as part of counter-biological warfare research) and wound up getting loose.

Anyway, this is all conspiracy theorizing regardless.

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:33 pm What would be the point of engineering a virus like this? It's not like you could easily target it at just some country / group without it coming back to your people / country / group.

Engineer? To study? Release? I dunno. Did you not study it well enough? Population control? A test?

All that said, it'd be a real hard sell to get to believe that was both designed and intentionally released. There are literally millions of people out there studying everything that is in the news every day. POtuS can't publish an "anonymous" picture without some curiosity leading someone to discover which spy satellite was used when in a matter of minutes after it the photo is released.

I mean to develop this and release it with plausible deniability would take many measures stacked on each other like eliminating oversight, cutting funding to the people who study respiratory disease spread in that part of the world under something stupid pretense, like "we could always hire them back quickly if we need them", increasing business interests in the area outside of government while calling the area an existential threat to our way of life, backing from a global black market financial empire, a wanton disregard for human life, an immunity from investigation at all levels concurrent with the ability to seem arbitrary in your ability gag others by attacking the whistle blowers. Even with all that, you'd be hard press to convince me.

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 2:35 pmAnyway, this is all conspiracy theorizing regardless.

I completely agree. There's not a molecule in my body that thinks this was anything but a natural disaster.

However, if anyone was looking for a good time to take down the US in a hard way, deploying a pandemic while we were at our weakest (leadership-wise) in decades is good timing. The only thing I could see that supports a conspiracy theory about this being man-made is that the US is being led by a complete and total smeghead. It doesn't make any kind of sense if a real leader were in power here.

LordMortis wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 2:46 pm

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 1:33 pm What would be the point of engineering a virus like this? It's not like you could easily target it at just some country / group without it coming back to your people / country / group.

Engineer? To study? Release? I dunno. Did you not study it well enough? Population control? A test?

I don't believe it was engineered, but playing along: If it were, it would likely be as a 'theoretical' research project, and more likely an accidental release, accidental infection, or a disgruntled employee.

i just now read this thread title as "Coronavirus: It's a Bottomless Pit"

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 2:35 pm There's no way to use this coronavirus in any kind of a targeted way.

Maybe not as it is, but that's why you would research it.


We are going to get to the point where engineered bioweapons can attack certain ethnic populations. Not saying COVID is part of that but we will get there. If we don't nature doesn't wipe ourselves us out first.

Fingers crossed...

A member of the US Navy who serves as one of President Donald Trump's personal valets has tested positive for coronavirus, CNN learned Thursday, raising concerns about the President's possible exposure to the virus.

The valets are members of an elite military unit dedicated to the White House and often work very close to the President and first family. Trump was upset when he was informed Wednesday that the valet had tested positive, a source told CNN, and the President was subsequently tested again by the White House physician.
...

A White House source said the valet, a man who has not been identified, exhibited "symptoms" Wednesday morning, and said the news that someone close to Trump had tested positive for coronavirus was "hitting the fan" in the West Wing.

Also from the article:

The White House is continuing to use the rapid Abbott Labs test, which provide results in about 15 minutes. Several officials who have received the test said it's often administered in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, next door to the West Wing on the White House grounds. A medical official swabs the staffer's nostrils and informs them that they'll be notified within the next several minutes if it's positive.
...
"The test result comes back in five minutes, and we have great testing. Or they wouldn't be allowed to travel with me," Trump said. "It's not my choice; it's a very strong group of people that want to make sure they are tested, including Secret Service."

Unlimited tests on a whim. While front line workers have to fight for testing, many dying of COVID untested.