2. Can Trump be impeached and removed quickly enough to matter?
Yes, but Congress would have to roll back much of the pomp and circumstance it has developed around the process.
With his incitement of the attack on the Capitol building, Trump cleared the hurdle of “high crimes and misdemeanors,” which, along with treason and bribery, is a constitutional trigger for impeachment. Articles of impeachment could be finalized within minutes and voted on with minimal debate. The Senate could then immediately convene to try the president. The Constitution requires “the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present” for conviction. It does not, however, require a lengthy trial or specific procedure, even though Congress has developed elaborate rules to govern—and elongate—the impeachment and trial process. The Senate played fast and loose with its own rules to facilitate Trump’s acquittal a year ago and could do the same in the other direction if its members had the will to secure a quick conviction.
But therein lies the main rub. The House and the Senate would need to meet to change their rules and allow an expedited process. Could it be done? Yes. Would it be easy? Not so much.
There’s a lot of machinery to move for that to happen in a timely fashion, and the president has only 13 days left in office. The president’s most rabid supporters in both chambers could still delay the rule changes needed to see this process through with due haste. And principles of justice would demand that President Trump, even in these circumstances, be afforded an adequate defense, necessarily prolonging any trial.
A second Trump impeachment, followed this time by conviction, would probably include the Senate’s disqualification of Trump from any future federal office, including the presidency—an option that only the impeachment and removal process offers. But the impeachment route takes a few days, even in a fastest-case scenario. In this intervening period an angry, vengeful Trump could do great additional damage.
If the impeachment process was initiated but the trial was still in progress come the end of Trump's term, would it simply die on the Senate floor or could it be brought to a conclusion after he is no longer president? While removal from office would be moot, there might be value in requiring individual Senators to take a definitive position in either absolving or convicting him.
Impeachment is a process and would continue until concluded whether or not he was still in office. That is why I support impeachment ASAP. Worry about the trial later. If Republicans didn't have to worry about actually removing him from power...it very well might change the outcome of the vote. But still probably a low chance. More important is to have it running in case he breaks out of his box again.
The most important takeaway from this whole episode is "we the people" have very little protection from an out of control President beyond don't elect one. Impeachment is too slow a process. The process in the 25th is too unclear for this purpose as well. It is a real gap in our system. When it comes down to it our Republic's design was good for the 18th century but it naturally did not contemplate the modern world and we have very poor defense against democratic backsliding.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:13 am
by Paingod
Grifman wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:23 amWhat an idiot - who wears a company badge to an insurrection:
I'm usually against people being branded for life, but being part of a failed coup that resulted in multiple deaths should limit your employment opportunities.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:17 am
by malchior
Grifman wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:19 am
The St. Louis Despatch just called for Hawley’s resignation. The attempt to be the Trump heir is not going well.
The jury is way out on this. The audience Hawley was going after is quite different from the newspaper crowd.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 am
by Lorini
So the FBI is having a lot of difficulty tracking down the rioters because the police couldn't be bothered to arrest them for any number of crimes they obviously committed. I was very happy to hear Biden's concern about how the police reacted to people who were obviously breaking the law vs people who were obviously meeting the law. I could hope that all of the police involved in the insurrection are fired, but there's probably little point as the new ones would likely be as bad as the old ones. When can we find police who are committed to the rule of law and the Constitution?
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 am
So the FBI is having a lot of difficulty tracking down the rioters because the police couldn't be bothered to arrest them for any number of crimes they obviously committed. I was very happy to hear Biden's concern about how the police reacted to people who were obviously breaking the law vs people who were obviously meeting the law. I could hope that all of the police involved in the insurrection are fired, but there's probably little point as the new ones would likely be as bad as the old ones. When can we find police who are committed to the rule of law and the Constitution?
The problem here is that Wednesday was partially the continuation of police riot and reactionationary blowback from the summer. We have evidence there were off-duty police, right-wing politicians, and business executives mixed in here.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:51 am
by LordMortis
Grifman wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:32 am
Some prosecutions will be easier than others:
Completely ignoring the unfathomable two America's of law enforcement, I get stuck on the unfathomable security that allowed all of the potential espionage to take place on what should be one of the most secure facilities in the world. I can't even get to the two America's thought. This stuff is worthy of "patriots" getting the Guantanamo treatment as enemies of the state. Like they aren't citizens. They're spies and the law enforcement sworn to protect that building and its information that opened the doors and guided these people through the Capitol building should be investigated and punished according to their actions.
I just keep getting caught on the information breach more than anything else and then I'm stuck as these traitors to our nation were let loose and then let to walk. How? That's a whole lot more than just the treason of the president.
If they do come back, will the police again take down barriers for them? Given the police response, they may as well come back every day. They should also include in these media pictures, the faces of the police who permitted this to happen.
JUST NOW: Impeachment vote by middle of next week...Assistant House Speaker @RepKClark tells me moments ago.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:10 am
by Ralph-Wiggum
This may have already been mentioned, but per Pod Save America, if the cabinet invokes the 25th, Trump can send a letter to Congress arguing that he should not be removed because his faculties are intact. Congress can take up to 20 days to vote on whether that is the case (it would require a 2/3 majority in both the House and Senate to then remove Trump). But during those 20 days, Trump would not be the acting president. So, effectively, invoking the 25th amendment now would remove Trump from office until Biden's inauguration.
2. Can Trump be impeached and removed quickly enough to matter?
Yes, but Congress would have to roll back much of the pomp and circumstance it has developed around the process.
With his incitement of the attack on the Capitol building, Trump cleared the hurdle of “high crimes and misdemeanors,” which, along with treason and bribery, is a constitutional trigger for impeachment. Articles of impeachment could be finalized within minutes and voted on with minimal debate. The Senate could then immediately convene to try the president. The Constitution requires “the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present” for conviction. It does not, however, require a lengthy trial or specific procedure, even though Congress has developed elaborate rules to govern—and elongate—the impeachment and trial process. The Senate played fast and loose with its own rules to facilitate Trump’s acquittal a year ago and could do the same in the other direction if its members had the will to secure a quick conviction.
But therein lies the main rub. The House and the Senate would need to meet to change their rules and allow an expedited process. Could it be done? Yes. Would it be easy? Not so much.
There’s a lot of machinery to move for that to happen in a timely fashion, and the president has only 13 days left in office. The president’s most rabid supporters in both chambers could still delay the rule changes needed to see this process through with due haste. And principles of justice would demand that President Trump, even in these circumstances, be afforded an adequate defense, necessarily prolonging any trial.
A second Trump impeachment, followed this time by conviction, would probably include the Senate’s disqualification of Trump from any future federal office, including the presidency—an option that only the impeachment and removal process offers. But the impeachment route takes a few days, even in a fastest-case scenario. In this intervening period an angry, vengeful Trump could do great additional damage.
If the impeachment process was initiated but the trial was still in progress come the end of Trump's term, would it simply die on the Senate floor or could it be brought to a conclusion after he is no longer president? While removal from office would be moot, there might be value in requiring individual Senators to take a definitive position in either absolving or convicting him.
Impeachment is a process and would continue until concluded whether or not he was still in office. That is why I support impeachment ASAP. Worry about the trial later. If Republicans didn't have to worry about actually removing him from power...it very well might change the outcome of the vote. But still probably a low chance. More important is to have it running in case he breaks out of his box again.
The most important takeaway from this whole episode is "we the people" have very little protection from an out of control President beyond don't elect one. Impeachment is too slow a process. The process in the 25th is too unclear for this purpose as well. It is a real gap in our system. When it comes down to it our Republic's design was good for the 18th century but it naturally did not contemplate the modern world and we have very poor defense against democratic backsliding.
Could Congress impeach Trump after he leaves office? Wouldn't it be moot at that point?
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:24 am
by El Guapo
Loeffler formally conceded to Warnock. Sad that it's notable that a Republican who clearly lost has conceded, but here we are. I assume that this makes it easier to seat Warnock sooner rather than later.
Perdue hasn't conceded yet, though.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:31 am
by malchior
El Guapo wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:18 amCould Congress impeach Trump after he leaves office? Wouldn't it be moot at that point?
Yes. It isn't moot because it prevents him from ever holding office again.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:34 am
by hepcat
Things I've learned over the last 48 hours:
When BLM riots occur, it's the fault of anti Trump/BLM/Antifa protestors
When pro Trump riots occur, it's the fault of anti Trump/BLM/Antifa protestors
El Guapo wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:18 amCould Congress impeach Trump after he leaves office? Wouldn't it be moot at that point?
Yes. It isn't moot because it prevents him from ever holding office again.
Oh I did not know that they could still do it after he leaves office. They 100% need to do it then so that there is no chance that he ever runs for office again.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:41 am
by YellowKing
hepcat wrote:When pro Trump riots occur, it's the fault of anti Trump/BLM/Antifa protestors
Interestingly enough, the attempt to pin this on Antifa is also an admission of guilt. If you truly believed in your cause, why wouldn't you embrace these patriots storming the castle and martyring themselves for your messiah?
Which means that if Trump wants to run again in 2024 after being impeached, he could try and likely could file suit in court if he was denied being put on the ballot.
El Guapo wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:18 amCould Congress impeach Trump after he leaves office? Wouldn't it be moot at that point?
Yes. It isn't moot because it prevents him from ever holding office again.
Oh I did not know that they could still do it after he leaves office. They 100% need to do it then so that there is no chance that he ever runs for office again.
Not necessarily.
In short, the ability of Trump — or any president who gets impeached, for that matter — to seek re-election while impeached is entirely up to the Senate.
According to Article I, Section 3 of the United States Constitution, ”Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States.”
The Senate could not only vote for impeachment and subsequent removal from office with a 2/3 majority vote, but it could also vote to ban Trump from ever running for office again.
edit: CURSE YOU, GUAP! you have stolen my thunder for the last time! I demand satisfaction!
Which means that if Trump wants to run again in 2024 after being impeached, he could try and likely could file suit in court if he was denied being put on the ballot.
Right. Realistically I think it is relatively safe to say that if Trump is impeached and convicted even this SCOTUS will not say he can run for office. They can even get super narrow and tailor it to the circumstance (inciting insurrection).
The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:08 am
by hepcat
We've traced the call. It's coming from inside the House!
<cue scary music>
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:10 am
by Paingod
hepcat wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:34 am
Things I've learned over the last 48 hours:
When BLM riots occur, it's the fault of anti Trump/BLM/Antifa protestors
When pro Trump riots occur, it's the fault of anti Trump/BLM/Antifa protestors
Make up your goddamn mind, left wingers!
They did, and it was aptly summarized by their Great Leader.
BREAKING: Prosecutors in the U.S. Attorney’s office plan to open a federal murder investigation into the death of Brian D. Sicknick, the Capitol Police officer who was killed during Wednesday’s riots, a law enforcement official tells @CNN
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:15 am
by LawBeefaroni
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 am
So the FBI is having a lot of difficulty tracking down the rioters because the police couldn't be bothered to arrest them for any number of crimes they obviously committed.
It's a mystery why the FBI is having such difficulty. There are countless photos and videos. There are also probably TBs of location data and breadcrumbs.
Also, FWIW, there were several arrests. But assuming it takes at least one cop to arrest one individual (being generous), how many arrests can we expect? Heard about a marketing firm CEO from the Chicago suburbs that was arrested in the Capitol and was suspended (or terminated?) yesterday.
Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:35 pm
At this point my biggest worry is what happens on January 6, when Congress holds a session to certify the electoral college vote, presided over by Mike Pence, and some seditious bastard makes a motion to nullify the electoral college vote. I saw previous sessions, presided by Al Gore and Joe Biden, where any such BS talk was slammed down. What happens if Pence allows a vote on the motion?
Has Randy Rainbow spoofed "Tradition!" yet? [edit: yes]
Grifman wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:23 amWhat an idiot - who wears a company badge to an insurrection:
I'm usually against people being branded for life, but being part of a failed coup that resulted in multiple deaths should limit your employment opportunities.
I've read of about half a dozen people who have been identified and have lost their jobs over their little "stunt". I'm all for it.
Completely ignoring the unfathomable two America's of law enforcement, I get stuck on the unfathomable security that allowed all of the potential espionage to take place on what should be one of the most secure facilities in the world. I can't even get to the two America's thought. This stuff is worthy of "patriots" getting the Guantanamo treatment as enemies of the state. Like they aren't citizens. They're spies and the law enforcement sworn to protect that building and its information that opened the doors and guided these people through the Capitol building should be investigated and punished according to their actions.
I just keep getting caught on the information breach more than anything else and then I'm stuck as these traitors to our nation were let loose and then let to walk. How? That's a whole lot more than just the treason of the president.
What's funny in this case is that she has been identified as owning a flower shop in Midland, TX and people are sending emails and asking what prison she'll be at so they can send her flowers.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:41 am
by Grifman
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 am
So the FBI is having a lot of difficulty tracking down the rioters because the police couldn't be bothered to arrest them for any number of crimes they obviously committed. I was very happy to hear Biden's concern about how the police reacted to people who were obviously breaking the law vs people who were obviously meeting the law. I could hope that all of the police involved in the insurrection are fired, but there's probably little point as the new ones would likely be as bad as the old ones. When can we find police who are committed to the rule of law and the Constitution?
Where are you reading this? I've seen dozens of them being identified on Twitter, the idiots are posting this stuff on their social media for heaven's sake. There's no reason for the FBI to have problems identifying many of them. And you bring in one, threaten them to get them to cooperate and name others, this isn't hard stuff.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:50 am
by Skinypupy
Demonstrating the courage and resolve we’ve come to expect from Trump appointees.
The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!
Please God let this be one of the lines (inflammatory Twitter posting) that Trump's remaining friends and advisors told him he cannot cross or else "25th Ammendment or impeachment".
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 am
So the FBI is having a lot of difficulty tracking down the rioters because the police couldn't be bothered to arrest them for any number of crimes they obviously committed. I was very happy to hear Biden's concern about how the police reacted to people who were obviously breaking the law vs people who were obviously meeting the law. I could hope that all of the police involved in the insurrection are fired, but there's probably little point as the new ones would likely be as bad as the old ones. When can we find police who are committed to the rule of law and the Constitution?
Where are you reading this? I've seen dozens of them being identified on Twitter, the idiots are posting this stuff on their social media for heaven's sake. There's no reason for the FBI to have problems identifying many of them. And you bring in one, threaten them to get them to cooperate and name others, this isn't hard stuff.
The NYT has reported that because many of the mob were not arrested even though they had obviously broken the law, the FBI has had trouble identifying them. You do realize that not all of them and in fact probably not even most of them are boasting about this on social media? Some of them may actually care about their freedom? Threatening people to get them to cooperate assumes that all of them knew the names of the rest of them there, which is very unlikely.
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 am
So the FBI is having a lot of difficulty tracking down the rioters because the police couldn't be bothered to arrest them for any number of crimes they obviously committed.
It's a mystery why the FBI is having such difficulty. There are countless photos and videos. There are also probably TBs of location data and breadcrumbs.
Also, FWIW, there were several arrests. But assuming it takes at least one cop to arrest one individual (being generous), how many arrests can we expect? Heard about a marketing firm CEO from the Chicago suburbs that was arrested in the Capitol and was suspended (or terminated?) yesterday.
The video shows people leaving the capitol, walking by police and nothing was done. Believe it or not, because this is a free country or was, the FBI doesn’t have a photo database of 350 million citizens. We can expect the police to arrest those who have clearly committed crimes. They are excellent at arresting those who haven’t, what’s the problem here?
Last seen, they’ve arrested 37 people for the actual break in. I saw way more than 37 people involved, but again video shows the cops ignoring them.
The 80,000,000 traitors who fraudulently voted against me, UNAMERICAN, will have NO VOICE long into the future. They will not be respected or treated fairly in any way, shape or form!!!
The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!
Please God let this be one of the lines (inflammatory Twitter posting) that Trump's remaining friends and advisors told him he cannot cross or else "25th Ammendment or impeachment".
The authority he seems to respect is Twitter. No mention of winning. No implied threat of sedition. Twitter's newspaper to the nose brings him to heel. Some Greatness. That's the alpha strength his "patriots" respect and adore.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:08 pm
by Paingod
You can't have bigly ratings without a platform to throw angry spittle from.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:10 pm
by Smoove_B
Lorini wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:05 pmLast seen, they’ve arrested 37 people for the actual break in. I saw way more than 37 people involved, but again video shows the cops ignoring them.
The only good thing is that as the arrests increase and the FBI starts their investigations, I need to believe the people that are picked up are going to do anything and everything to communicate the people that were with them in an effort to not be charged with federal crimes. It's unfortunate that this needs to start from zero 2+ days later, but I'm confident the worst of the worst are going to be identified as investigators are able to piece together the web of connections.
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:10 pm
by Defiant
Skinypupy wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:06 am
He's baaaaaaaaaack.
The 75,000,000 great American Patriots who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST, and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!
He's going to issue blanket pardons to 75 million people, isn't he?
Re: Election integrity and the transfer of power
Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:12 pm
by Paingod
Defiant wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:10 pmHe's going to issue blanket pardons to 75 million people, isn't he?
Only after he first makes "Kill a filthy, inhuman Democrat" a federal offense.
