LCD, seriously what to get

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:28 pm

My other fear of 1600x1200 is that I'm an anti-aliasing fan. I like running my cards in high-quality mode. While I do have a very good video card, I'm worried that 1600x1200 will be slowing things to a crawl.

gellar · Post by **gellar** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:53 pm

Anti Aliasing is totally unnecessary at 1600x1200.

That being said, if you want to run AA... go for it. Just crank the res down to 1280x960.

gellar

ChuckB · Post by **ChuckB** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:46 pm

Hi,

I have the NEC Multisync 2070BX (20 inch, 1600x1200 native resolution). I think is has a 16ms reaction time - never had any problems with ghosting, from my experience, the pure ms is not that important.

I can definitely confirm that DVI gives you a much better picture quality and the idea alone of connection two digital devices with an analogue connector (and suffering the unavoidable loss of signal quality) is kind of strange ... so avoid it, if possible.

The reason why I bought the 20 inch with the "standard" resolution was that I wanted to avoid any problems with scaling - the only alternative for me would be to get a Widescreen LCD that supports 1200 in the vertical so that you can run 1600x1200 in "native" and have the black bars to both sides. But this means getting a 24 inch and that's kind of large and may not work for you, depending on how close you will sit in front of your screen (I, for example, have a wall behin my desk, so my distance from the screen is set) and also because they are still expensive.

Regarding AA: I don't think at all that Antialiasing is unnecessary at 1600x1200. This is a relatively high resolution, but you still can see the jaggies. I currently play Splinter Cell 2 on 1600x1200 and AA is not supported and this is clearly visible and sometimes distracting.

I have a GeForce 7800GTX and one of the reasons was to be able to run the native resolution on my screen with everything set to high (including 4xAA).

Chuck

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:04 pm

GuidoTKP wrote:Ya know, I purchased the Dell 2001FP less than a year ago and love it. Fantastic monitor for every use. And yet, I already feel myself starting to covet this. Hmmm. My sister may be inheriting a relatively new monster monitor soon ....

It's better than it looks. Trust me - you'll love it.

Hamsterball_Z · Post by **Hamsterball_Z** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:22 pm

gellar wrote:Anti Aliasing is totally unnecessary at 1600x1200.

That being said, if you want to run AA... go for it. Just crank the res down to 1280x960.

gellar

AA helps at any resolution.

Another reason to get the highest resolution you can is that on an LCD you can always scale down but you can't really scale up. You usually end up having to scroll around to view a higher than native resolution.

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:52 pm

Another reason to get the highest resolution you can is that on an LCD you can always scale down but you can't really scale up. You usually end up having to scroll around to view a higher than native resolution.

That's an excellent point, but from all I've heard going to anything other than native res on an LCD is asking for trouble. I know some handle them "okay," but I'm trying to make my graphic losses minimal here.

Any reports of graphic hits from the 1600x1200 group? Do you use AA? What about filtering? And how about with the widescreen folks?

Also, since the color is different on an LCD screen, does this make a difference on the demands made to a GPU?

KePoW · Post by **KePoW** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:28 am

Bullwinkle wrote:Any reports of graphic hits from the 1600x1200 group? Do you use AA? What about filtering? And how about with the widescreen folks?

Also, since the color is different on an LCD screen, does this make a difference on the demands made to a GPU?

I've had a 2001FP for maybe almost 2 years now and I love it just like any other owner of it. as for AA, I won't go as far as gellar and say it's 100% completely unnecessary...if you look really closely, you can still see jaggies at certain angles. but I can say that personally, I don't really notice it while in the course of regular game-playing, so it doesn't bother me at all to leave AA off all the time. it's certainly a lot *less* necessary to turn on AA at 1600x1200 than at 1024x768 or 1280x1024 or 1280x960

as for anisotropic filtering, I'm a big fan of it at any resolution. I know to most people, AF plays second fiddle to AA...but I've always liked it more even back when I was on my old 19" CRT doing everything at 1280x960. I guess jaggies just never bothered me that much, whereas texture quality and clearness seemed to make much more of a graphical difference in my eyes. anyway, I force 8x AF on in every game I play (ones that don't have AF settings themselves that is), and I play everything at 1600x1200. the fps hit is negligible on my nvidia 6800 GT OC

I've played around with turning on 4x AA in quite a few games, and the fps hit with that is admittedly noticeable in almost all current generation releases. so the only time I turn it on is for older and/or non-demanding games, like NWN for example. no fps hit on stuff like that

as for your "the color is different on an LCD screen" question, I have no idea what you're talking about there...but I don't think that has anything to do with how a GPU renders any game

Hamsterball_Z · Post by **Hamsterball_Z** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:02 am

Even with the best LCDs currently out there you're going to have to face some tradeoffs. You're going to go round and round forever unless you actually use one and see what those tradeoffs are. The best thing you can do is go to a store with a good return policy and just buy one. Any halfway decent one will do if they don't have one of the recommended models. At least this will give you a point of reference to work from. Test it out with your system and your games. See if you can live with the black level issues, how scaling really looks, etc. Return it if you don't like it or if you want to get a better model. This way you'll know if you want to go LCD or stick to CRT.

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:23 pm

Is anyone else out there using 1600x1200 and AA?

Greg Wak · Post by **Greg Wak** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:53 pm

I went widescreen with a 2005FPW. I really love everything about it. More and more games are supporting widescreen. The couple of games I had to play "streched" did not bother me at all. Besides if it does you can allways play it native with black bars. Dell runs great sales and I got this for $430 with free shipping. They also have a 21 day free return policy so you can exchange and or return it for free for any reason whatsoever. I will never go back.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:18 pm

Rich in KCK wrote:I'm happy with my Hyundai L90D+ it was and is still the highest rated 19" LCD on NewEgg with 409 reviews and a 5 star rating. Tom's or Anandtech liked it as well, I can't remember which one I read the review at that pointed me to it in the first place.

I has DVI and 8ms response time.[/url]

I recently bought this monitor from newegg as well and I'm also quite happy with it.

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:13 pm

On the 2005FPW, what options are you using graphically?

Also, how easy is it to set the black bars for a normal screen (I do not like playing the game stretched out)? Do you have to reconfigure every time you play? Or is it recognized by your card automatically?

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:30 pm

GuidoTKP wrote:Ya know, I purchased the Dell 2001FP less than a year ago and love it. Fantastic monitor for every use. And yet, I already feel myself starting to covet this. Hmmm. My sister may be inheriting a relatively new monster monitor soon ....

I did and am quite happy. I loved the 2001FP but this one seems brighter, and 1600X1200 looks great for the stuff that doesn't support widescreen. I have an X700 PCIE card and seldom have problems except with the highest setting on the most demanding flight sims.

Greg Wak · Post by **Greg Wak** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:43 pm

[quote="Bullwinkle"]On the 2005FPW, what options are you using graphically?

Also, how easy is it to set the black bars for a normal screen (I do not like playing the game stretched out)? Do you have to reconfigure every time you play? Or is it recognized by your card automatically?[/quote
If it supports wide screen I play at 1680x1050 otherwise it's 1280x1024. There might be some higher ones inbetween, it depends on the game. Usually 4xAA and 4X AF. My 6800gt seems to handle it fine. Even played the Fear demo at that. Soft shadows kinda killed it but everything else was smooth. I play streched so I can't say about the bars.

Edited as I confused some numbers,DOH!

Geezerone · Post by **Geezerone** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:48 pm

Bullwinkle wrote:On the 2005FPW, what options are you using graphically?

Also, how easy is it to set the black bars for a normal screen (I do not like playing the game stretched out)? Do you have to reconfigure every time you play? Or is it recognized by your card automatically?

I too have the 2005FPW and I believe the resolution is 1680x1050.

I dont like playing games stretched out either. A lot of newer games DO support widescreen (check out http://www.widescreengamingforum.com/ for a what is native and what can be tweaked.)

Anyways, there is a simple check box in either the video driver (I have an ATI X800) or in the moniter setup (dont remember - am at work now) that sets whether your game will auto stretch or not (and then show the black bars). Rise of Nations looked terrible stretched, so I played with black bars for a while until I found this site; which then showed me how to get RoN to run 1680x1050.

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:53 am

So, it's running at 16:10 as opposed to 16:9 (standard widescreen). That seems odd to me. Doesn't that have an effect on stretching the image? Especially if you're concerned with playing games in a resolution supported by the game.

I took a look at that site, Geezer, and it seems like a definite go-to if I go this route, but I thought a few of the games looked quite stretched out in the screenshot section.

If I want some games to play widescreen but others to play in a box in the center (ie with the black bars), this isn't too difficult to accomplish, right? And do I have to wirte some sort of macro for each game, or will setting the res in game give the appropriate set-up on screen?

Also, how does a 1024x768 game look on the widescreen?

Sorry to ask all these Qs, but I am actually thinking strongly about this monitor right now, and I'm trying to figure out what the catch is.

Greg Wak · Post by **Greg Wak** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:00 am

The controls for weather it streches the game or plays with bars are on the front of the monitor. very easy to use. I play Falcon AF and SH3 in 1024@768 streched and I think it looks good but many people are more sensitive to it than I am. Hetz who posts often here has the same monitor and has been very happy with it as well. Also I think most AAA titles in the future will support it native. If you time Dells sales right you can get 2 years no interest as well.

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:21 am

On my 24" widesceen there is a setting in the video driver as to whether you want non native reolutions to be stretched or displayed in native resolution with black bars. So, if I fire up civ3, it automatically displays it using only the center 1024x768 pixels on the monitor and displays black bars around all of the edges. If I play in 1600x1200, I get black bars on either side of the screen. It's not a behavior you have to configure for each game, it will happen automatically depedning on what resolution the game is running at.

I can say thet pretty much every game I've gotten in the past 6 months has had support for my native resolution, so the only time I have to deal with it is if I go back to an older title.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Rich in KCK wrote:I'm happy with my Hyundai L90D+ it was and is still the highest rated 19" LCD on NewEgg with 409 reviews and a 5 star rating. Tom's or Anandtech liked it as well, I can't remember which one I read the review at that pointed me to it in the first place.

I has DVI and 8ms response time.[/url]

+1. I was part of the mini-stampede to this monitor a couple of months back and have no regrets. It was a great value at $300.

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:40 pm

it automatically displays it using only the center 1024x768 pixels on the monitor and displays black bars around all of the edges.

Now, is that a very small box, or is it playable? My hope is that it would be the same size as a 20" display. Also, how sharp is it?

the only time I have to deal with it is if I go back to an older title.

I do play a lot of older titles, so this is definitely an important point.

As for the Hyundai, it is on my list, and I know it had raves when it came out, but I also heard that while it's great for games, it's only so-so for other apps. Also, it's running 6-bit color, right? I believe the Dells run at 8-bit. I think that makes a difference, especially if you're running 12ms at 8-bit and thus my leaning towards the 2005FPW.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:11 pm

Bullwinkle wrote: As for the Hyundai, it is on my list, and I know it had raves when it came out, but I also heard that while it's great for games, it's only so-so for other apps. Also, it's running 6-bit color, right? I believe the Dells run at 8-bit. I think that makes a difference, especially if you're running 12ms at 8-bit and thus my leaning towards the 2005FPW.

Most of my computer time is spent on the Web, in Word, and in Excel. I'm not an action gamer at all and only a casual strategy gamer. Appearance of everything is crisp and clear. I can't answer the technical questions. From Rich's link, "display colors" = 16.7 Million, if that helps.

Not that I'm trying to sell you anything...I'm sure the Dell is a great monitor and worth its price. AnandTech says they can be had for as little as $350, although the best price I saw online today was $465 -- too rich for me. Of course, I'm not shopping very hard.

Harugon · Post by **Harugon** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 4:20 pm

Got the Dell 24" as a $400 upgrade with my new computer and I absolutely love it. I play alot of FPS games and I can't see any blurring effects or other problems. I'll never go back to CRT.

ChrisGwinn · Post by **ChrisGwinn** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:04 am

Bullwinkle wrote:
it automatically displays it using only the center 1024x768 pixels on the monitor and displays black bars around all of the edges.
Now, is that a very small box, or is it playable? My hope is that it would be the same size as a 20" display.

Couldn't possibly be. The whole monitor has a 20" diagonal, and you're not using all of it.

Ernest · Post by **Ernest** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:05 pm

I've been really happy with my Dell 2001fp. I was looking for 1600x1200 native resolution.

Regardless of the lcd you buy, be sure to surf the various coupon sites before you make the purchase. I saved almost 60% off the cost of my 2001fp via a coupon sequence I saw at Cheap Dirty Bastard.

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:04 am

How well do these Dell big screens (wide or otherwise) handle non-native res? Is it close to identical? For example, at this point, I'm running most games at 1024x768, and there are at least some that I'd like to maintain that for, would it be worth it?

Greg Wak · Post by **Greg Wak** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:43 pm

My 2005FPW deals with all resolutions great! Ireally don't notice any distortion but as allways ymmv.

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:00 pm

Well, I'm going with the Dell 2005FPW. I just missed it at $389. I'm waiting for the next round of coupons. How often do they come out? And is there any place I should be looking other than Cheap Stingy Bastards, the Tech Zone and Tech Bargains?

msurby · Post by **msurby** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:10 pm

www.gotapex.com is good for Dell deals in particular.

Greg Wak · Post by **Greg Wak** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:48 pm

Bullwinkle wrote:Well, I'm going with the Dell 2005FPW. I just missed it at $389. I'm waiting for the next round of coupons. How often do they come out? And is there any place I should be looking other than Cheap Stingy Bastards, the Tech Zone and Tech Bargains?

Yup, gotapex has the best deals. That's where I got mine but it wasn't at 389 damn. The best deals seem to resurface every 6-8 weeks or so. Great choice Bullwinkle you will be happy. Remember with Dell you can return it within 21 days with no reason needed. In case you get unlucky with a dead pixel or backlight leak. I didn't and lately it has been much rarer. Let us know how you like it!

martindemon · Post by **martindemon** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:26 am

gbasden wrote:
Kobra wrote:and universally agreed that the $900 one was waste of cash.
Whatever. You will pry my 24" widescreen Dell out of my cold dead fingers - and it was worth every penny of the $900 I paid for it.

What is the response time (ms) of this monitor? (edit) 12ms ok
How/where did you pay only 900$ for it? Is it still available?

thaynes · Post by **thaynes** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:07 pm

martindemon wrote:
gbasden wrote:
Kobra wrote:and universally agreed that the $900 one was waste of cash.
Whatever. You will pry my 24" widescreen Dell out of my cold dead fingers - and it was worth every penny of the $900 I paid for it.
What is the response time (ms) of this monitor? (edit) 12ms ok
How/where did you pay only 900$ for it? Is it still available?

While I dont know the specs for the monitor,
There were a lot referals to the $900 price on the dell athardforum/hardware/display

Way to much info to wade through, I beleive the primary location for $900 deal on the hardforum was www.gotapex.com which was mentioned by msurby.

-Terry

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:20 pm

I think the 20"wide has a 12ms response time, but I think the 24" is higher.

martindemon · Post by **martindemon** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:12 pm

Do they make other rabates from time to time? All the coupons I have found have expired... 25% is a lot so I think I'll choose another elsewhere or wait a bit. A shame really because the 24" is really good looking.

Do you think a LCD TV could make a good computer monitor? For example, the Panosonic TC26LX50, a 26" LCD TV has a WXGA (1366x768) input. I could plug a Xbox360 on that in the future... But bye bye high resolution... But the picture would be extremely bright and I like that. But it is more expensive... Anyway, I'm not really in a hurry to I can wait for another dell coupon or an equivalent deal with another company.

thaynes · Post by **thaynes** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:08 am

Rebates seem pretty common on both dell and http://www.deals2buy.com/delldeals.htm

From what I remember most prople who were talking about the $900
were using a coupon/discount and pricematching.

-Terry

Bullwinkle · Post by **Bullwinkle** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:17 pm

Well, I got the 2005FPW. Text looks just okay, but a hell of a lot better than the blurry mess my CRT was turning into.

I am getting a bit of eyestrain, though. At first, I thought it was a refresh rate issue, as that's what would have caused it with a CRT (old habits are hard to murder or something), but I found out that's not really an issue.

Then, as I was loading Half-Life 2, I came to a dark screen. There, in the four corners, was some of the worst light bleeding I'd ever seen. Really, it makes dark scenes in games unplayable.

So, a question for those of you who've purchased from Dell. How does the exchange policy work? I know I have 21 days to send it back, but really, I just want to exchange it. Can I give them a credit card, hold onto the current monitor and send it to them when the new one arrives? I don't want to go back to the old monitor (tells you how bad it was if I'm willing to live with the light-bleed from hell versus use it again).

Also, could this eyestrain be from something else.

By the way, I've only done Half-Life 2 and Guild Wars and both are gorgeous. And smooth. I guess my PC/vid card combo is better than I thought.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Gedd · Post by **Gedd** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:03 am

When I exchanged my 2005 FPW (something like 2 or 3 times) Dell always sent me the replacement and told me to ship the other one back in the same box. I don't think they need you to give them a credit card number because you've already done so in the original purchase.

[edit]

Oh, and the eyestrain may just be your eyes getting used to using an LCD for a long period of time. When I first got my 2005FPW I felt like I was staring at the sun (my old CRT was wonderfully dim at max brightness). After a short period of time my eyes adjusted to it and now there's no problems.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:35 am

Ive heard some companies give your a refurb when you send something back in for exchange. Does Dell do that? I Id hate to buy a new monitor and be given a refurb.

martindemon · Post by **martindemon** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:21 pm

Daehawk wrote:Ive heard some companies give your a refurb when you send something back in for exchange. Does Dell do that? I Id hate to buy a new monitor and be given a refurb.

I have read the thread about Dell high pitched noise comming out of the 2405FPW and some people reported being given a refurb when asking for a replacement. Some got new ones. You can always return the refurb and ask for your money... Or you can try the refurb by checking everywhere to make sure it's perfect; that's what I would do.

Rincewind · Post by **Rincewind** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:23 pm

Geez. I swear to god a couple months ago every other week this thing went on a decent sale, and now its been 2 months and nothing

I cry!!!

Anyways-the 24inch one is under 900 today if anyone is looking for it.

martindemon · Post by **martindemon** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:11 pm

Rincewind wrote:Geez. I swear to god a couple months ago every other week this thing went on a decent sale, and now its been 2 months and nothing I cry!!!

Anyways-the 24inch one is under 900 today if anyone is looking for it.

Yes, it was 989$CAD=825$USD yesterday

That's when I bought it. It should arrive next thursday.