Octopus Overlords

The Volt gets around heating be heating your feet and seat and keeping the cabin a bit cooler than you would expect so that you are comfortable in a sweater. Or at least that is what I have read. Uses less energy that way.

stessier wrote:The Volt gets around heating be heating your feet and seat and keeping the cabin a bit cooler than you would expect so that you are comfortable in a sweater. Or at least that is what I have read. Uses less energy that way.

Somewhere, a genius is going to use an adapter and connect a space heater to that...

Zaxxon wrote:I had the opportunity to test drive the Performance model last night with a friend.

I swear there's a roadster, I've see one in my neighborhood all the time (the guy cuts me off on my commute quite regularly ). But I can't find it on the site. From what I've seen of it, it would be the super performance model.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:I had the opportunity to test drive the Performance model last night with a friend.

I swear there's a roadster, I've see one in my neighborhood all the time (the guy cuts me off on my commute quite regularly ). But I can't find it on the site. From what I've seen of it, it would be the super performance model.

Yeah. The Perf Model S does 0-60 in 4.4. The Roadster does 3.7. Insane.

Zaxxon wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:I had the opportunity to test drive the Performance model last night with a friend.

I swear there's a roadster, I've see one in my neighborhood all the time (the guy cuts me off on my commute quite regularly ). But I can't find it on the site. From what I've seen of it, it would be the super performance model.

Yeah. The Perf Model S does 0-60 in 4.4. The Roadster does 3.7. Insane.

One of the founders of Tesla lives in the area and I've seen him driving around town in his Roadster. I was fortunate once to pull up along side of him at a light and talk to him for a few seconds. When the light turned green, he grinned and pushed down on the space-time vortex generator, causing the car to appear to jump into hyperspace.

Biyobi want.

Biyobi wrote:When the light turned green, he grinned and pushed down on the space-time vortex generator, causing the car to appear to jump into hyperspace.

Kind of like this, only faster?

Biyobi wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:

LawBeefaroni wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:I had the opportunity to test drive the Performance model last night with a friend.

I swear there's a roadster, I've see one in my neighborhood all the time (the guy cuts me off on my commute quite regularly ). But I can't find it on the site. From what I've seen of it, it would be the super performance model.

Yeah. The Perf Model S does 0-60 in 4.4. The Roadster does 3.7. Insane.

One of the founders of Tesla lives in the area and I've seen him driving around town in his Roadster. I was fortunate once to pull up along side of him at a light and talk to him for a few seconds. When the light turned green, he grinned and pushed down on the space-time vortex generator, causing the car to appear to jump into hyperspace.

Biyobi want.

lol
with that description I don't know why you didn't buy one right away

Vorret wrote:

Biyobi wrote:

Zaxxon wrote: Yeah. The Perf Model S does 0-60 in 4.4. The Roadster does 3.7. Insane.

One of the founders of Tesla lives in the area and I've seen him driving around town in his Roadster. I was fortunate once to pull up along side of him at a light and talk to him for a few seconds. When the light turned green, he grinned and pushed down on the space-time vortex generator, causing the car to appear to jump into hyperspace.

Biyobi want.

lol
with that description I don't know why you didn't buy one right away

The Roadster started around $95k. I'd have to kill help quite a few people (beyond what my job usually calls for) for a couple months to build up that much free cash.

In answer to your heating question: like a cellphone or a laptop, the battery pack generates a lot of heat as it's discharged and Tesla had to make a cooling solution for it, so I'm sure they can route that heat back through the cabin.

Zaxxon wrote:

Biyobi wrote:When the light turned green, he grinned and pushed down on the space-time vortex generator, causing the car to appear to jump into hyperspace.

Kind of like this, only faster?

A lot like it (I was in my 330i). I envy you your test drive. I imagine I'd burn through several sets of tires every year playing with that acceleration. How comfy was the interior?

Biyobi wrote:I envy you your test drive. I imagine I'd burn through several sets of tires every year playing with that acceleration. How comfy was the interior?

It was dark out so I didn't get a good look around, but it felt comfortable. There's a lot of room in back, made to feel even roomier by the lack of a center tunnel under the floor (the middle-back seat has the same legroom, seat belt, and headrest as the side seats). The back is fairly sparse outside of 2 reading lights and heating/ac vents.

Up front if I had a complaint it's that there's not a lot of storage space. The flip side of that is there's an enormous amount of roominess. And the touchscreen and behind-steering displays are just gorgeous. In fact aside from the controls on the steering wheel and column, there are only two physical buttons in the car--hazard lights and the glove box release. Crazy.

I want Tesla to succeed, if only to generate money for SpaceX. After reading several interviews with Elon Musk I have become convinced that he really is going to send a mission to Mars...but he needs to wean himself from the government teat to do that.

From the January 2013 Automobile magazine that named the Tesla Model S its automobile of the year.

Supercharging stations will be scattered around the country that Model S owners will have free access to for the life of their car. These stations will give 150 mile range in thirty minutes. The hardware comes standard in the 85-kWh model but is $2000 option on the 60-kWh model.

Even with this these stations this car still will not be convenient on long trips. Certainly not going to drive across the country with one. Take a trip from Minneapolis to Chicago. A trip I do about once a year. I can do it nonstop in my car (400hp btw) if my bladder holds out, but I would have to stop once for a minimum of thirty minutes in the Tesla 85-kWh model. Twice in the 60-kWh model. People doing similar trips are going to jump in their SUV instead. An expensive second car. Almost $60k for the 60-kWh model which only has an 160 mile range. It will be interesting if the company succeeds. They need to greatly ramp up production without goverment help.

Even with this these stations this car still will not be convenient on long trips. Certainly not going to drive across the country with one. Take a trip from Minneapolis to Chicago. A trip I do about once a year. I can do it nonstop in my car (400hp btw) if my bladder holds out, but I would have to stop once for a minimum of thirty minutes in the Tesla 85-kWh model. Twice in the 60-kWh model. People doing similar trips are going to jump in their SUV instead. An expensive second car. Almost $60k for the 60-kWh model which only has an 160 mile range. It will be interesting if the company succeeds. They need to greatly ramp up production without goverment help.

Progress takes time and generally starts out expensive. What excites me about Tesla is not the notion that this iteration of this model will function perfectly for 100% of people in 100% of their automotive needs. As you just admitted, you make that long drive about once a year. Most people drive very short distances most of the time--well, well within the range of the current-gen Teslas. Most people would be better off renting on the rare occasions they go significantly beyond the Tesla range. And many will still have a 2nd, traditional vehicle.

And that's today. What excites me is that there's finally a legitimately awesome EV that will do the trick for most people. It's garnering praise as the best car this year (not the best alternative-fuel car, or the best luxury car, or the best out-there concept car, but the best car of any type), and without Tesla we'd have the Leaf and Volt as our avant-garde state of the art. That would depress this 6-year Prius owner if you told me in 2006 that would be the state of the art in 2012.

If the S holds up after there are more of them on the road seeing everyday use, and if the X is a successful launch, and if the Supercharger network actually appears as promised, I'm very excited about where Tesla will be leading the industry in 5 years. If the tech takes off, then even those folks that do take long trips would have no qualms at all about a 30-min charging stop if chargers are appropriately-located (say, at restaurants). Most people will stop for a potty break or some chow every 200-300 miles anyway. As long as charging locations actually do proliferate, it's a non-issue for the average consumer once the idea of plugging in becomes more mainstream. It's not like stopping for gas takes 10 seconds, anyway. That's a lot of 'ifs', but in 5 years we could (should?) have a medium-sized sedan costing $25k-$30k getting 500-600 miles on an $8 charge. That's exciting.

What are your concerns about the Volt? To me that is the more legitimate primary vehicle than the Leaf or Model S. How is it compared to yours or current Prius? Of course GM watered it down and did not make it as good as it could of been.

mori wrote:What are your concerns about the Volt? To me that is the more legitimate primary vehicle than the Leaf or Model S. How is it compared to yours or current Prius? Of course GM watered it down and did not make it as good as it could of been.

A 35-mile range does not an electric car make. Premium gas required, and a 37 mpg EPA rating outside of its short range (eg much worse than a Prius designed 10 years ago). It's definitely a step forward, but I view it as closer to the Prius than to the S.

I don't mean to knock the Volt or the Prius (which is still probably the coolest piece of tech I've owned). Just to say that Tesla's approach is the future, in my eyes. The Prius and Volt are both clearly stopgaps. The S is arguably a stopgap, although I laid out my reasoning for it being the future right now in my prior post.

I believe the premium fuel requirement for the Volt is because the fuel will sit in the car's tank for long periods of time and premium will not deteriorate as fast.

mori wrote:I believe the premium fuel requirement for the Volt is because the fuel will sit in the car's tank for long periods of time and premium will not deteriorate as fast.

Makes sense.

So how long are the batteries on the Teslas expected to last before needed to be replaced these days? I remember almost 10 years ago checking out their website before they even had a car in production (I had the site bookmarked and checked it every few months to see how they were progressing) and they had a couple of show-stoppers for me, one being that you had to take your Tesla to a Tesla repair center, and the closest one to me was going to be like 6 hours away, and that the batteries would need to be replaced after a few years at exorbitant cost. Even if I'd stuck with the business exec thing as planned and had the money to throw around, I'd pretty much decided back then that I'd never own one primarily for those reasons. I wonder if they've changed either of those factors at all?

Odin wrote:So how long are the batteries on the Teslas expected to last before needed to be replaced these days?

They tell me 150,000-200,000 miles before a significant reduction in range, and a slow burn down from there. The Roadster has only been out for 4 years, so the real-world verdict is still out, but that's what they tell me.

I remember almost 10 years ago checking out their website before they even had a car in production (I had the site bookmarked and checked it every few months to see how they were progressing) and they had a couple of show-stoppers for me, one being that you had to take your Tesla to a Tesla repair center, and the closest one to me was going to be like 6 hours away,

It's still the case that your car must be serviced with Tesla (largely because no one else is yet qualified). But there are many more service centers and they have the Telsa Ranger program, through which a Tesla repair tech will come to you wherever you are, either for a flat $100 fee per service or a set additional cost to your service plan.

Their service is not super-cheap, but compared to other vehicles in their class it is less expensive than what I'm finding on Edmunds. For example, on the Model S you can elect for an 8-year, 100mi warranty (unlimited miles on the battery), plus all service and wear-and-tear costs excluding tires for $6,300. I find that to be a pretty solid deal. Xenon headlights, brake pads, wiper blades, whatever--all included. Roadside assistance, towing to Tesla, loaner cars, all included.

It's not cheap, but were I to elect to purchase a cutting-edge, only partially-proven vehicle like the S, that's a lot of peace of mind for what amounts to less than the expected maintenance costs over 8 years on just about any other vehicle.

and that the batteries would need to be replaced after a few years at exorbitant cost. Even if I'd stuck with the business exec thing as planned and had the money to throw around, I'd pretty much decided back then that I'd never own one primarily for those reasons. I wonder if they've changed either of those factors at all?

Today the battery replacement is expensive. But no one will have to pay for one for many years (all Teslas include an 8-year battery warranty). Tesla is now offering a battery replacement option when purchasing the car that will replace the battery at any point down the road once the warranty ends. It's $8k/$10k/$12k depending on the battery size in your vehicle. That tells me that they expect the cost to drop to that range or lower in the next 8 years.

And if I were a betting man, I'd bet that what you'd get for that cost would be much more powerful than what you get today.

That's definitely a lot less onerous than what they'd said early on. Good to hear. Still unlikely I'll ever own one, but perhaps not completely out of the question.

Odin wrote:That's definitely a lot less onerous than what they'd said early on. Good to hear. Still unlikely I'll ever own one, but perhaps not completely out of the question.

Same boat here.

There was a NYT article about how a Model S underperformed on a test drive. Tesla questioned the accuracy of the report and then posted this. Me thinks there is a reporter with some 'splainin' to do.

Yeah, I've been following this. Either the NYT reporter is in some deep doo doo or Tesla is faking their logs. I don't think the 2nd is feasible, so I'm going with option #1. Craziness.

Zaxxon wrote:Yeah, I've been following this. Either the NYT reporter is in some deep doo doo or Tesla is faking their logs. I don't think the 2nd is feasible, so I'm going with option #1. Craziness.

I think #2 is feasible, but really dangerous and can't imagine it would be worth it.

I find the logs along with his previous disdain for electric cars compelling. And a reporter faking a story for the NYT is not exactly a new thing, is it?

Zaxxon wrote:Yeah, I've been following this. Either the NYT reporter is in some deep doo doo or Tesla is faking their logs. I don't think the 2nd is feasible, so I'm going with option #1. Craziness.

That is absolutely AMAZING bullshit. Kudos to Tesla for covering their backs with so much data. Either they're outstanding at forging the facts to suit their needs, or (more likely, IMO) this reporter is king of the asshats. I hope the NYT does investigate this and then hangs him from a yardarm.

stessier wrote:

Zaxxon wrote:Yeah, I've been following this. Either the NYT reporter is in some deep doo doo or Tesla is faking their logs. I don't think the 2nd is feasible, so I'm going with option #1. Craziness.

I think #2 is feasible, but really dangerous and can't imagine it would be worth it.

I don't mean it's impossible, just that Tesla whipped this response together pretty quickly. In order to properly fake the sheer volume of data behind this trip and have it be compelling would be a lot of work. Beyond just being a bad idea, I think it would have been very difficult to pull off convincingly in such a short time frame.

Good for them. I hope their data is all valid is this guy is hung out to dry.

There's really nothing the author can do to fight this, is there? Even if he were telling the truth, it's not like he took a data logger with him to show his side of the story. All he's got is his word - and that ain't going to be enough.

I still think he was lying, I'm just trying to figure out a way he might be telling the truth and can't find a way he could prove it.

Smoove_B wrote:Good for them. I hope their data is all valid is this guy is hung out to dry.

Ditto, well not really. But I hope if they're data is all valid this guy is publicly hung out to dry because shady journalism is something that needs to be handled better than it is.

Sounds like an unpaid review.
Kinda like bad games receiving 9.5 when they put alot of ads on the reviewer website and good game get 7.5 when no ads are paid.

Sigh

CNN hopped on the pile today.

CNN.com wrote:In the end, I made it -- and it wasn't that hard.

Fretmute wrote:CNN hopped on the pile today.

CNN.com wrote:In the end, I made it -- and it wasn't that hard.

scooped!

The NYT author issued his response. It seems like he's claiming that Tesla is confusing some of their claims about his test and that his unusual charging behavior, where he would leave a charging station with the car at less than a full charge, was done at the suggestion of Tesla employees, with whom he frequently called during his trip.

Musk claimed:

For his first recharge, he charged the car to 90%. During the second Supercharge, despite almost running out of energy on the prior leg, he deliberately stopped charging at 72%. On the third leg, where he claimed the car ran out of energy, he stopped charging at 28%. Despite narrowly making each leg, he charged less and less each time. Why would anyone do that?

The NYT writer's response:

I stopped at 72 percent because I had replenished more than enough energy for the miles I intended to drive the next day before fully recharging on my way back to New York. In Norwich, I charged for an hour on the lower-power charger, expressly on the instructions of Tesla personnel, to get enough range to reach the Supercharger station in Milford.

Another Musk claim:

“The final leg of his trip was 61 miles and yet he disconnected the charge cable when the range display stated 32 miles. He did so expressly against the advice of Tesla personnel and in obvious violation of common sense.”

The NYT writer's response:

The Tesla personnel whom I consulted over the phone – Ms. Ra and Mr. Merendino – told me to leave it connected for an hour, and after that the lost range would be restored. I did not ignore their advice.

I have a hard time believing that the Tesla personnel were telling him to go ahead disconnect the charger and drive the 61 miles even though the display only says his car has a 32 mile charge. Either he's got a faulty memory or he was totally confused as to what they were telling him. Even if the car can make up some mileage, would they really want customers, not to mention reviewers for the NY Times, to risk it instead of just letting it continue to charge? I've read several reviews of this car and nothing has led me to believe that Tesla hires idiots, yet that is what this reviewer would have us believe.

Yep - "they told me too!" is the only defense he has. People who like him will believe him. People who don't, won't. Tesla gets a lot of press and people setting out to see if it is possible (ala CNN) and the dude gets to keep his job. Everyone wins.

If he was really on the phone with Tesla reps, there should be phone logs. Pull 'em and see.

Zurai wrote:If he was really on the phone with Tesla reps, there should be phone logs. Pull 'em and see.

I'm sure he called. He mentioned it in the original article as well. What was said is trickier.

People wanting something to succeed so much makes me think of this http://www.g2mil.com/scandal.htm" target="_blank Can't wait for POTUS to starting using one.

Regardless of who is right here, the car sounds like a giant pain in the ass if you are going beyond a couple hundred miles from home.

mori wrote:Regardless of who is right here, the car sounds like a giant pain in the ass if you are going beyond a couple hundred miles from home.

Sure . . . but people who take long road trips aren't exactly its market.

Fretmute wrote:

mori wrote:Regardless of who is right here, the car sounds like a giant pain in the ass if you are going beyond a couple hundred miles from home.

Sure . . . but people who take long road trips aren't exactly its market.

Isn't it? It is priced and equipped as a grand tourer not as a commuter.

mori wrote:Isn't it? It is priced and equipped as a grand tourer not as a commuter.

It seems priced and equipped as a fancy around town car for rich folks, but that's just my opinion.