American torture

[Pyperkub]

We wouldn't bitch so much if we didn't love it so much.

[GreenGoo]

We wouldn't bitch so much if we didn't love it so much.

I think that's true. It's also why I'm willing to spend so much time on it, but also because your policy decisions often have a direct or indirect impact here in the Great White North. Part of me believes that it's because when you are diminished, we are diminished too, because our fundamental beliefs are so similar and also because of our close working relationship, and because we're friends.

Stop sucking. We like hanging out with you.

[Holman]

America has tremendous ideals, but we kind of suck at fully realizing them. You can find something to be genuinely ashamed of in just about every decade of US history. (Most other Great Powers are and have always been worse, of course.)

The only thing that saves us is when we actually do lead the way towards those great ideals, however imperfectly.

[Combustible Lemur]

Sorry, we're not "awesome" now because less than a decade ago we sold out some of our most fundamental values because we were afraid. The world's greatest superpower afraid of a group of globally impotent lunatics so much so that we brought all our considerable might to bear simply to drop ourselves down to their level.

*hugz*

We all thought so highly of you, too.

Of course it's easy to criticize when I'm in even less danger from terrorism than the average American, but one of the things people love about America is the idea that people have rights that are inalienable.

To watch your population allow those rights to be chipped away at because you were attacked was appalling. Those rights don't exist only for the "good times". They are inalienable, or are supposed to be.

I wasn't arround for Pearl Harbour, and I'm not much of a historian, and I know Americans with Japanese heritage were treated atrociously, but I wonder how the country as a whole reacted? What was the political atmosphere then? What would the man on the street have to say?

Paranoia and racism gave rise to the red scare, the drug war, McCarthy ism, Korea, and the Vietnam War.

Oops.

[Rip]

Sorry, we're not "awesome" now because less than a decade ago we sold out some of our most fundamental values because we were afraid. The world's greatest superpower afraid of a group of globally impotent lunatics so much so that we brought all our considerable might to bear simply to drop ourselves down to their level.

*hugz*

We all thought so highly of you, too.

Of course it's easy to criticize when I'm in even less danger from terrorism than the average American, but one of the things people love about America is the idea that people have rights that are inalienable.

To watch your population allow those rights to be chipped away at because you were attacked was appalling. Those rights don't exist only for the "good times". They are inalienable, or are supposed to be.

I wasn't arround for Pearl Harbour, and I'm not much of a historian, and I know Americans with Japanese heritage were treated atrociously, but I wonder how the country as a whole reacted? What was the political atmosphere then? What would the man on the street have to say?

Paranoia and racism gave rise to the red scare, the drug war, McCarthy ism, Korea, and the Vietnam War.

Oops.

Nothing new. It also led to Nazis, Khmer Rouge, Holodomor, The Great War, and The Crusades. Not to mention countless others I haven't the time to list. But of course we are just picking out one country to lament.

[AWS260]

Paranoia and racism gave rise to the red scare, the drug war, McCarthy ism, Korea, and the Vietnam War.

Oops.

Nothing new. It also led to Nazis, Khmer Rouge, Holodomor, The Great War, and The Crusades. Not to mention countless others I haven't the time to list. But of course we are just picking out one country to lament.

Specifically, our country.

[Rip]

Paranoia and racism gave rise to the red scare, the drug war, McCarthy ism, Korea, and the Vietnam War.

Oops.

Nothing new. It also led to Nazis, Khmer Rouge, Holodomor, The Great War, and The Crusades. Not to mention countless others I haven't the time to list. But of course we are just picking out one country to lament.

Specifically, our country.

A view of ones strengths and faults is useless without comparing it to peers. We don't exist in a vacuum and the world around us and the actions of our peers has great effect on the choices we or our ancestors make/made. To examine one and not the other or without the perspective examining the other would provide is folly and useless.

We have done terrible things more terrible than anyone could do except for everyone not us and what they were doing.

[GreenGoo]

Paranoia and racism gave rise to the red scare, the drug war, McCarthy ism, Korea, and the Vietnam War.

Oops.

Nothing new. It also led to Nazis, Khmer Rouge, Holodomor, The Great War, and The Crusades. Not to mention countless others I haven't the time to list. But of course we are just picking out one country to lament.

Specifically, our country.

A view of ones strengths and faults is useless without comparing it to peers. We don't exist in a vacuum and the world around us and the actions of our peers has great effect on the choices we or our ancestors make/made. To examine one and not the other or without the perspective examining the other would provide is folly and useless.

We have done terrible things more terrible than anyone could do except for everyone not us and what they were doing.

He was answering my pondering how your country handled the attacks on pearl harbour. Not well, was his answer.

[Rip]

Paranoia and racism gave rise to the red scare, the drug war, McCarthy ism, Korea, and the Vietnam War.

Oops.

Nothing new. It also led to Nazis, Khmer Rouge, Holodomor, The Great War, and The Crusades. Not to mention countless others I haven't the time to list. But of course we are just picking out one country to lament.

Specifically, our country.

A view of ones strengths and faults is useless without comparing it to peers. We don't exist in a vacuum and the world around us and the actions of our peers has great effect on the choices we or our ancestors make/made. To examine one and not the other or without the perspective examining the other would provide is folly and useless.

We have done terrible things more terrible than anyone could do except for everyone not us and what they were doing.

He was answering my pondering how your country handled the attacks on pearl harbour. Not well, was his answer.

And I am saying that I disagree with "not well". I will agree that looking through the prism of today without any perspective that seems like the obvious choice. But when you look at other factors of reality of the day and what was accepted practice in other places of that time, I am proud of how our ancestors handled it. Could it have been better, sure. However when compared to other peoples and nations of the day with similar powers and responsibilities you will find none that did it any better or any fairer.

[GreenGoo]

Ah. So like you put them in internment camps but at least you didn't gas them, is that it?

Kudos.

[RunningMn9]

This is a weird response Rip. Many of the people that did the things that you are proud of (really? You're proud of the internment camps?) are ashamed of what they did.

Because what they did went against the very fiber of our national being. They should be judged harshly for it. I guess not as harshly as we would judge them for torturing and killing them, but we shouldn't ever be proud of it.

That said - of course they did other things that we should be proud of in response to the attack on Pearl Harbor. But they can still be criticized for some things and celebrated for others.

[Grifman]

The measure of America is that despite its imperfections and inexcusable treatment of minorities, those same minorities, African-Americans, Native Americans, and Japanese Americans, all served and fought bravely in World War 2.

That said, the torture was inexcusable. I'd argue that Nazi Germany was a far more serious and existential threat to the US than Al Qaida, yet we never tortured any German generals, and we captured a lot of them. If we didn't do this during WW2, why after 9/11?

[Rip]

This is a weird response Rip. Many of the people that did the things that you are proud of (really? You're proud of the internment camps?) are ashamed of what they did.

Because what they did went against the very fiber of our national being. They should be judged harshly for it. I guess not as harshly as we would judge them for torturing and killing them, but we shouldn't ever be proud of it.

That said - of course they did other things that we should be proud of in response to the attack on Pearl Harbor. But they can still be criticized for some things and celebrated for others.

Compared to what the public at large desired what they ended up doing was very mild for the time. The anger and desire to hurt those people who looked like the people that attacked them was like 9/11 but exponentially higher. That there weren't large numbers of people physically harmed is amazing.

[Rip]

The measure of America is that despite its imperfections and inexcusable treatment of minorities, those same minorities, African-Americans, Native Americans, and Japanese Americans, all served and fought bravely in World War 2.

That said, the torture was inexcusable. I'd argue that Nazi Germany was a far more serious and existential threat to the US than Al Qaida, yet we never tortured any German generals, and we captured a lot of them. If we didn't do this during WW2, why after 9/11?

Ummm, we drug them all in front of kangaroo courts and hung most of them........

[Kraken]

The measure of America is that despite its imperfections and inexcusable treatment of minorities, those same minorities, African-Americans, Native Americans, and Japanese Americans, all served and fought bravely in World War 2.

That said, the torture was inexcusable. I'd argue that Nazi Germany was a far more serious and existential threat to the US than Al Qaida, yet we never tortured any German generals, and we captured a lot of them. If we didn't do this during WW2, why after 9/11?

Uniforms.

No, really. The Geneva Conventions supposedly don't apply to terrorists because they're non-state actors.

This really comes down to American Exceptionalism. Problem is, that can be spun either for or against torture. Either we're better than that, or we're so good that the rules don't apply to us.

[LawBeefaroni]

However when compared to other peoples and nations of the day with similar powers and responsibilities you will find none that did it any better or any fairer.

Just about each and every of the other involved powers had bombs falling on their capital cities along with the rest of their population centers. We had a military outpost some 4,700 miles from our capitol attacked. Of course Hawaii is a state and I'm not trying to diminish what happened there, but London is closer to DC than Pearl Harbor.

"Similar" powers were suffering civilian casualties on a daily basis. It you want to start comparing what happened here to other countries, you have to take that into account as well. How do you think we would have reacted if there were nightly raids on DC from Japanese bombers? Or if German tanks were carving a path from LA to Jefferson City?

[Jeff V]

Hawaii wasn't a state when it was attacked; it was a territorial possession like Guam, Midway, The Philippines, Samoa, etc.

[Rip]

However when compared to other peoples and nations of the day with similar powers and responsibilities you will find none that did it any better or any fairer.

Just about each and every of the other involved powers had bombs falling on their capital cities along with the rest of their population centers. We had a military outpost some 4,700 miles from our capitol attacked. Of course Hawaii is a state and I'm not trying to diminish what happened there, but London is closer to DC than Pearl Harbor.

"Similar" powers were suffering civilian casualties on a daily basis. It you want to start comparing what happened here to other countries, you have to take that into account as well. How do you think we would have reacted if there were nightly raids on DC from Japanese bombers? Or if German tanks were carving a path from LA to Jefferson City?

To answer your question. Worse.

Internment wasn't just a US thing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peoples ... 1858.shtml

Thousands of Germans, Austrians and Italians were sent to camps set up at racecourses and incomplete housing estates, such as Huyton outside Liverpool. The majority were interned on the Isle of Man, where internment camps had also been set up in World War One. Facilities were basic, but it was boredom that was the greatest enemy. Internees organised educational and artistic projects, including lectures, concerts and camp newspapers. At first married women were not allowed into the camps to see their husbands, but by August 1940 visits were permitted, and a family camp was established in late 1941.

That many of the 'enemy aliens' were Jewish refugees and therefore hardly likely to be sympathetic to the Nazis, was a complication no one bothered to try and unravel - they were still treated as German and Austrian nationals. In one Isle of Man camp over 80 per cent of the internees were Jewish refugees.

As regards British citizens interned by the Nazis, in September 1942 the Germans sent 2,000 British-born civilians from the Channel Islands to internment camps in Germany. Another 200 were deported in January 1943, as a reprisal for a British commando raid.

In 1941-2 approximately 130,000 civilians from Allied countries living and working in colonies invaded by the Japanese were interned. These included men, women and children from the Netherlands, the UK, Australia, New Zealand and the USA. The camps varied in size; some were segregated according to gender or race but there were also many camps of mixed gender. One of the largest un-segregated camps was the Stanley internment camp in Hong Kong, which held 2,800 mainly British internees. Unlike prisoners of war, the internees were not compelled to work, but they were held in harsh conditions in primitive camps. Brutality by the Japanese guards was common and death rates were high.

and of course there were far worse thing done by not only the Axis but the Allies as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war ... rld_War_II


Not to mention that anyone who doesn't think there was a healthy amount of government sanctioned torture going on by intel services is just being obtuse. I doubt any nation on earth can claim to have never engaged in "enhanced interrogation".

[GreenGoo]

The measure of America is that despite its imperfections and inexcusable treatment of minorities, those same minorities, African-Americans, Native Americans, and Japanese Americans, all served and fought bravely in World War 2.

That said, the torture was inexcusable. I'd argue that Nazi Germany was a far more serious and existential threat to the US than Al Qaida, yet we never tortured any German generals, and we captured a lot of them. If we didn't do this during WW2, why after 9/11?

I've thought on that quite a bit since 9/11. Not just the torture but all sorts of behaviour that more dire circumstances didn't invoke. I don't have a good answer for you. It's weird.

If I had to guess, I'd say it was fear. I'm sure there was plenty of fear mongering during WWII, but it had a target and a reason. To get the population involved in the war effort. Rationing, joining, working in factories. The goal seemed to be motivating the public to wage the war.

Today, it just seems to be fear for fear's sake. Well, fear so the government can do some stuff and the population will mostly keep quiet about it. Some of the population will actually endorse giving up some rights because "terrorism".

It's clearly working. There hasn't been another attack on US soil, and the terrorists want to kill you in your home. Believe me. So quiet down and take your medicine. It's for your own good.

[GreenGoo]

The measure of America is that despite its imperfections and inexcusable treatment of minorities, those same minorities, African-Americans, Native Americans, and Japanese Americans, all served and fought bravely in World War 2.

That said, the torture was inexcusable. I'd argue that Nazi Germany was a far more serious and existential threat to the US than Al Qaida, yet we never tortured any German generals, and we captured a lot of them. If we didn't do this during WW2, why after 9/11?

Ummm, we drug them all in front of kangaroo courts and hung most of them........

Lots of people deserved to die. Not many deserve to be tortured. I'll leave a little wiggle room there.

[Rip]

The measure of America is that despite its imperfections and inexcusable treatment of minorities, those same minorities, African-Americans, Native Americans, and Japanese Americans, all served and fought bravely in World War 2.

That said, the torture was inexcusable. I'd argue that Nazi Germany was a far more serious and existential threat to the US than Al Qaida, yet we never tortured any German generals, and we captured a lot of them. If we didn't do this during WW2, why after 9/11?

Ummm, we drug them all in front of kangaroo courts and hung most of them........

Lots of people deserved to die. Not many deserve to be tortured. I'll leave a little wiggle room there.

I thought you guys didn't believe in capital punishment?

[Isgrimnur]

Lots of people deserved to die. Not many deserve to be tortured. I'll leave a little wiggle room there.

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?

[Exodor]

That said, I am unmotivated to care about the actual report in question either. I view it in the same hyperpartisan light that I would view any Benghazi horseshit that the Republicans tried to make me believe.

I have no faith in the truthiness of any of them.

The difference, to me, is that nothing has been found to indicate any wrongdoing in Benghazi but the only point of dispute with this report seems to be whether torture was effective in retrieving information - and how much Bush was aware of the CIA's methods. Cheney and the CIA not only admit to torturing suspects but seem proud of doing so.

[LawBeefaroni]

To answer your question. Worse.

Internment wasn't just a US thing.

Uh, either you completely missed my point or you decided to support it.

There but for the grace of geography, not a strong will, go us.

[GreenGoo]

I thought you guys didn't believe in capital punishment?

Eh? Are we talking about Santa or capital punishment? what does "believe in" mean?

There are lots of people that deserve to die. I'm not willing to trust the government to tell me which ones.

[RunningMn9]

The difference, to me, is that nothing has been found to indicate any wrongdoing in Benghazi but the only point of dispute with this report seems to be whether torture was effective in retrieving information - and how much Bush was aware of the CIA's methods. Cheney and the CIA not only admit to torturing suspects but seem proud of doing so.

For whatever reason, I seem to have a fairly mellow view of enhanced interrogation techniques, when applied to shitty terrorists. The realist in me says that it's an ugly world out there, and sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. That's just the way the world is. Doing it to US citizens in violation of the rights that you exist to guarantee? Not on board with that (which is how I arrive at being against the Japanese-American camps, and apparently pro-torture of foreign shitty terrorists).

[GreenGoo]

The difference, to me, is that nothing has been found to indicate any wrongdoing in Benghazi but the only point of dispute with this report seems to be whether torture was effective in retrieving information - and how much Bush was aware of the CIA's methods. Cheney and the CIA not only admit to torturing suspects but seem proud of doing so.

For whatever reason, I seem to have a fairly mellow view of enhanced interrogation techniques, when applied to shitty terrorists. The realist in me says that it's an ugly world out there, and sometimes you have to get your hands dirty

You're not alone in that. I read articles talking about the horrific torture and then find out that harsh words were used. I do have my limits and I do think the EIT passed them, but as compared to the history of human torture, this is small potatoes. The problem is we (I assume we're signatories on the same treaties) agreed not to do this shit when things were much worse. While we did it as part of a reciprocation (actually, I don't know. I assume) and there is no reciprocracity (;)) with the terrorists, I still think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard, ESPECIALLY if lowering ourselves is paying limited to no dividends. Then we just debase ourselves and get nothing in return. Fuck you Dick Cheney.

And that's not even addressing the idea that your government, heaven forbid, were not exactly on top of their due process. Due process is more than making sure the rights of captives aren't violated. It's also about making damn sure you've got the right people. Finding out that your country tortured innocents is so harsh that people will simply rationalize the possibility away. If they were tortured, they were guilty. If they were guilty, then torture is ok. Q.E.D.

[RunningMn9]

And that's not even addressing the idea that your government, heaven forbid, were not exactly on top of their due process. Due process is more than making sure the rights of captives aren't violated. It's also about making damn sure you've got the right people. Finding out that your country tortured innocents is so harsh that people will simply rationalize the possibility away.

This is a compelling reason to question the use of torture at all, even against shitty terrorists - just in case the person you just did unspeakable things to was actually innocent.

As to the other issue - holding ourselves to a higher standard. I imagine that when it comes down to it, and you have strong reason to believe that a person in captivity has information that will save American lives, that's a hard place to be in. Do you take the moral high ground, and spend the rest of your life feeling like you have the blood of innocent civilian Americans on your hands (because you didn't do all you could do)? Do you take the moral low ground, and spend the rest of your life feeling like you have the blood of a shitty terrorist on your hands, but feeling secure that you did all you could do to save innocent American lives.

Either way you have to spend the rest of your life living with some heavy moral baggage. Or at least I hope so. I wouldn't want to meet the individual that is navigating these waters with a clean conscience.

[Rip]

I thought you guys didn't believe in capital punishment?

Eh? Are we talking about Santa or capital punishment? what does "believe in" mean?

There are lots of people that deserve to die. I'm not willing to trust the government to tell me which ones.

They told you which Germans, Italians, and Japanese needed killing.

You seem to be indicating you were ok with them being trusted then?

[GreenGoo]

I thought you guys didn't believe in capital punishment?

Eh? Are we talking about Santa or capital punishment? what does "believe in" mean?

There are lots of people that deserve to die. I'm not willing to trust the government to tell me which ones.

They told you which Germans, Italians, and Japanese needed killing.

You seem to be indicating you were ok with them being trusted then?

I don't know how old you think I am, but I didn't fight in WWII.

That being said, the ones that needed killing were the ones in front of me. If they had just stood aside, no one would have needed to die. Problem solved.

Seriously though, there are entire papers on the differences and similarities between capital punishment and war. Have at it if it truly interests you.

[Rip]

The difference, to me, is that nothing has been found to indicate any wrongdoing in Benghazi but the only point of dispute with this report seems to be whether torture was effective in retrieving information - and how much Bush was aware of the CIA's methods. Cheney and the CIA not only admit to torturing suspects but seem proud of doing so.

For whatever reason, I seem to have a fairly mellow view of enhanced interrogation techniques, when applied to shitty terrorists. The realist in me says that it's an ugly world out there, and sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. That's just the way the world is. Doing it to US citizens in violation of the rights that you exist to guarantee? Not on board with that (which is how I arrive at being against the Japanese-American camps, and apparently pro-torture of foreign shitty terrorists).

I am pretty much in line with that. I don't like that they did the camps and I don't think they should have, but a lot of hard choices were being made and some are bound to be wrong. I am thankful however that they resisted cries to do worse things to them.

Now with this one, I am ok with the techniques BUT I expect results or move on and most importantly I expect the POTUS to know exactly in detail what is being done to whom and what is being gained from it. In an expeditious fashion.

[Rip]

I thought you guys didn't believe in capital punishment?

Eh? Are we talking about Santa or capital punishment? what does "believe in" mean?

There are lots of people that deserve to die. I'm not willing to trust the government to tell me which ones.

They told you which Germans, Italians, and Japanese needed killing.

You seem to be indicating you were ok with them being trusted then?

I don't know how old you think I am, but I didn't fight in WWII.

That being said, the ones that needed killing were the ones in front of me. If they had just stood aside, no one would have needed to die. Problem solved.

Seriously though, there are entire papers on the differences and similarities between capital punishment and war. Have at it if it truly interests you.

Well if you look back and study it you will find that several people like Admiral Doenitz were executed for not doing much beyond following orders and committed no atrocities, yet were executed.

That said I have no problem that they executed a few people that didn't deserve it. None of them were innocent, the important thing is that most of them deserved to die. Of course I support capital punishment as well.

[GreenGoo]

Well if you look back and study it you will find that several people like Admiral Doenitz were executed for not doing much beyond following orders and committed no atrocities, yet were executed.

That said I have no problem that they executed a few people that didn't deserve it. None of them were innocent, the important thing is that most of them deserved to die. Of course I support capital punishment as well.

Wait, are you asking me why I'd kill Germans during wartime or my opinion on executions? Are you asking me why I'm not upset about past injustices or why I would like to prevent future ones?

Where are you going here? You can ask me directly to answer your questions if that would help.

[NickAragua]

Uh, hate to tell you, but if you read the Donitz wiki article, he wasn't actually executed.

Not saying I disagree with your point, just you may want to pick examples that actually support it.

[Isgrimnur]

It was just a really slow execution through the administration of fatty foods.

[LawBeefaroni]

For whatever reason, I seem to have a fairly mellow view of enhanced interrogation techniques, when applied to shitty terrorists. The realist in me says that it's an ugly world out there, and sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. That's just the way the world is. Doing it to US citizens in violation of the rights that you exist to guarantee? Not on board with that (which is how I arrive at being against the Japanese-American camps, and apparently pro-torture of foreign shitty terrorists).

There's a difference between the occasional torture done in the heat of the moment to achieve a specific piece of intelligence and an institutional policy of rounding up suspects and torturing them to see what you can get. The former can be put down to overzealous individuals and/or human frailty but the latter is an organizational decision to repeatedly cross that line.

[GreenGoo]

Uh, hate to tell you, but if you read the Donitz wiki article, he wasn't actually executed.

Not saying I disagree with your point, just you may want to pick examples that actually support it.

Shrug, it might as well have been a hypothetical for all I knew about it.

[NickAragua]

It was just a really slow execution through the administration of fatty foods.

Tough sonofabitch, too, lasted another 35 years.

[Carpet_pissr]

I wouldn't want to meet the individual that is navigating these waters with a clean conscience.

Hi RunnningMan, I'm Dick. Nice to meet ya. I'm awesome, just like America and torture. Combine those two awesome things together, and well, you got yourself an orgasm sammich right there.

[Rip]

Uh, hate to tell you, but if you read the Donitz wiki article, he wasn't actually executed.

Not saying I disagree with your point, just you may want to pick examples that actually support it.

My distraction level is high today.


edit....OK Jodl then.

Senior surviving Nazis got rough justice indeed at the widely-condemned Nürnberg Tribunal. These "Victor's Justice" propaganda show trials were unique in history, complete with fake "Jewish Skin" lampshade exhibits; a German-hating "impartial American judicial team" made up almost entirely of European Jews; barefaced lies, perjury and third-hand hearsay testimony. Most damning of all: widespread, unchallenged torture 'confessions' written in detailed English by non-English speaking German defendants.

Lots of good interesting info.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/1944.html