Octopus Overlords

Little Raven wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:40 pmI don't think we're actually disagreeing with each other on anything but technicalities here - you seem to agree that may-issue laws invite abuse - it doesn't seem like too much more of a stretch to imagine that people who go about abusing the system do so in ways that limit their liability.

Yeah - I just thought it was a weird distinction. Mob guys working through a shady expediter is a whole different can of tuna for me than some Apple schmuck trying to keep his bosses happy and say they are protected by armed security or whatever drama it involved.

About may-issue abuse I'm also careful about it because I think it largely is a red herring. I don't find edge cases or this type of second order effect to be all that persuasive a case against something. For example, analogously the case against drug laws isn't the massive amount of bribery it incents in law enforcement. There are law design or governance issue fixes for that behavior such as the cases the DA's brought against these parties.

malchior wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:00 pmI don't find edge cases or this type of second order effect to be all that persuasive a case against something.

For what it's worth, it's not the primary reason I hate may-issue laws either. I mostly hate them because if something is a right, then the assumption is everyone gets to do it unless they have somehow demonstrated that they are not worthy of it. If something is may-issue, then it isn't a right, it's a privilege.

And I am very wary of privileges that are awarded to some but not to others.

Holman wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:19 pm Just a thought. I'd kind of like to know I could hit the range for pleasure, but I'm worried that there's more to it than that.

At least here in NJ, there are places that will store your guns off~site for you, and you can also rent at the range.

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:54 am

Holman wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:19 pm Just a thought. I'd kind of like to know I could hit the range for pleasure, but I'm worried that there's more to it than that.

At least here in NJ, there are places that will store your guns off~site for you, and you can also rent at the range.

Since Chicago has de facto banned ranges and gun shops, I'm a a member of a range just across the city line. I'm grandfathered in at the original rate but it's still not cheap (more than the cost of around 3 P320s, anually). Just for a locker and range time. No extras like a lounge or competitive leagues.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:20 am Since Chicago has de facto banned ranges and gun shops, I'm a a member of a range just across the city line. I'm grandfathered in at the original rate but it's still not cheap (more than the cost of around 3 P320s, anually). Just for a locker and range time. No extras like a lounge or competitive leagues.

That seems excessive.

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:52 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:20 am Since Chicago has de facto banned ranges and gun shops, I'm a a member of a range just across the city line. I'm grandfathered in at the original rate but it's still not cheap (more than the cost of around 3 P320s, anually). Just for a locker and range time. No extras like a lounge or competitive leagues.

That seems excessive.

(Pre-covid P320s)

Depends how much you expect to shoot and how you value your time. The alternative is taking 2-4 hours to get 30mins of range time in. Everywhere else is in the suburbs. 45 minutes driving each way on a good day, wait in line to verify FOID, wait for an open lane, etc.

With a membership at the closest range I can hop over at lunch and shoot for 20 mins to sight in the new RMR or test a new trigger or whatever. I can allot 90 minutes on a Saturday instead of the entire afternoon and get a full hour of shooting. No lines and it's 10 mins from the office, 15 mins from home. They're also good about allowing guests for members.

But yeah, it's very high. The same thing is $300 or so most everywhere else, even the suburbs.

Well, except the club in Lake Forest. $4K or so. Maybe one day...

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:28 am(Pre-covid P320s)

Depends how much you expect to shoot and how you value your time. The alternative is taking 2-4 hours to get 30mins of range time in. Everywhere else is in the suburbs. 45 minutes driving each way on a good day, wait in line to verify FOID, wait for an open lane, etc.

With a membership at the closest range I can hop over at lunch and shoot for 20 mins to sight in the new RMR or test a new trigger or whatever. I can allot 90 minutes on a Saturday instead of the entire afternoon and get a full hour of shooting. No lines and it's 10 mins from the office, 15 mins from home. They're also good about allowing guests for members.

But yeah, it's very high. The same thing is $300 or so most everywhere else, even the suburbs.

Well, except the club in Lake Forest. $4K or so. Maybe one day...

I looked at the cost of ranges around me, and I guess that seems less excessive to me now. The basic memberships are like $400 to $500 per year, but they do offer a VIP membership that's over $2000 per year.

My quest has now moved on to the next stage. The gun is at my local FFL, we are just waiting for the apparently no longer appropriately named NICS results (it's already been two days, so hardly instant). So that's good. I have some 9mm ammo now, so that's good (need more, but enough to start to get comfortable with the weapon at a range). But the seller in TX doesn't ship non-compliant magazines to NJ. So while the gun came with two 17-round magazines, and I paid for two 17-round magazines, I don't have any magazines.

To make that worse, it turns out that it's virtually impossible to find magazines for the Sig P320 full right now. The FFL told me to go to one site that he uses for stuff, they helpfully let me know that I could expect shipment in 8 to 10 months. I did find a place that would let me order them, but they are on back order until 4/30. Unfortunately none of my friends have the P320 full, so I can't even borrow mags from them for a while. Perhaps a pandemic + the gun nuts around me being whipped into a frenzy that Biden is going to steal their guns wasn't the right time to pick up a new expensive hobby.

Try eBay for mags. They only allow 10 rounds or less (or "pinned").

Seeing several P320 full size 10rds at decent prices.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:20 pmTry eBay for mags. They only allow 10 rounds or less (or "pinned").

Seeing several P320 full size 10rds at decent prices.

I did see that, but my trust level in ebay is low, especially since everywhere else on earth is out of stock.

RunningMn9 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:04 pmSo while the gun came with two 17-round magazines, and I paid for two 17-round magazines, I don't have any magazines.

So how does THAT work? Are the magazines still here in Texas? Does the seller just hang on to them? Could you (theoretically) fly down to Texas and pick them up? (though I suppose you couldn't fly back with them, so.... )

I'm just so used to not really worrying about anything that doesn't fall afoul of the NFA.

You can buy 30 rounders here in TN for those pistols.

Little Raven wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:52 pmCould you (theoretically) fly down to Texas and pick them up? (though I suppose you couldn't fly back with them, so.... )

He could pick them up, but they're illegal in NJ to posses.

Possession of a large-capacity magazine gun can result in up to 18 months in prison and a $10,000 fine.

Which is why there was a perfectly reasonable response to the law when it changed a few years ago.

Little Raven wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:52 pm

RunningMn9 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:04 pmSo while the gun came with two 17-round magazines, and I paid for two 17-round magazines, I don't have any magazines.

So how does THAT work? Are the magazines still here in Texas? Does the seller just hang on to them? Could you (theoretically) fly down to Texas and pick them up? (though I suppose you couldn't fly back with them, so.... )

I'm just so used to not really worrying about anything that doesn't fall afoul of the NFA.

They keep them. Not part of the sale.

RunningMn9 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 4:17 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:20 pmTry eBay for mags. They only allow 10 rounds or less (or "pinned").

Seeing several P320 full size 10rds at decent prices.

I did see that, but my trust level in ebay is low, especially since everywhere else on earth is out of stock.

I've never had a problem buying mags on eBay. Some have been pretty dirty but I always strip and clean them anyway.

10 round mags are hot in NJ/CA/etc but few people that don't have to use them want them. Just make sure you get actual 10-rounders, not modified ones. Usually that's just a 3d-printed base plate that limits round count. Poor quality/reliability and questionable legality.

What if I want one of those spiffy derringers that are mounted on a spring just like James West used to hide up his sleeve on Wild Wild West? Or perhaps a crotch pistol like Sex Machine had on From Dusk Til Dawn? Although for that latter one, I really hope there’s a “This side faces out” warning sticker on it.

Little Raven wrote:So how does THAT work? Are the magazines still here in Texas? Does the seller just hang on to them? Could you (theoretically) fly down to Texas and pick them up? (though I suppose you couldn't fly back with them, so.... )

I'm just so used to not really worrying about anything that doesn't fall afoul of the NFA.

So, the gun was new, and they come with two factory spec magazines. In this case, because the gun was being sold in Texas, it comes with two 17-rd magazines.

When you buy the gun and tell them where you want to ship it, they send you an email letting you know there is a shipping hold. You get two options - they will pull the magazines out and ship you the gun; they will cancel the order and you’ll get a full refund.

They don’t give you a discount (since you aren’t getting what you are paying for). They won’t swap them for legal magazines. You either give them up, or you don’t get the gun.

Some places will ship them (it is legal to ship them to a dealer in NJ, they just have to modify them before transferring the gun to me). This place won’t. Instead, the pull the magazines out, and then sell them for like $45 each.

But it took me months to even find that one, so what’s a guy gonna do?

Sounds illegal.

BTW theres a lot of those Sigs on gunbrokerDOTcom.

Daehawk wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:40 pm Sounds illegal.

BTW theres a lot of those Sigs on gunbrokerDOTcom.

No interest in eBay for guns, or anything else for that matter.

Daehawk wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:40 pm Sounds illegal.

It isn't. They can't ship (or don't want to for liability reasons). And you can't go pick them up because it's an FFL transfer.

I recently bought a .40 conversion kit for my FNS and it is supposed to come with a slide, barrel, and 2 mags. They didn't want to ship the mags to Cook County so I paid the same price but didn't get $80 worth of mags. This isn't an FFL item, it shipped to my house but they still wouldn't ship the mags.

I'd wager it's about 40% more expensive to own firearms here and places like NJ. 50-60% if you count range time and ammo. That's undoubtedly the intent.

Yeah, it’s designed to purposefully annoy me. I can understand not sending the mags to my house and leaving it up to me to comply with the law. But not sending to the FFL (which *is* legal), that’s the part that irked me. But in these times, they were comfortable just telling me to take it or leave it.