[Film] Star Wars Phase Four

[hepcat]

The second sequel basically changed everything the first sequel set up.

It certainly did. It tried to add a mature storyline instead of following the trend of teen action film.

What storyline in the second sequel do you consider “mature”. Space Leia? The gambling planet maybe? The “death” of Luke?

Luke’s questioning of the force and its religious reverence, the destruction of the whole “chosen one” story that previous entries relied upon, to name two.

You’ve been fed a children’s version of knights and dragons so long that you’ve probably come to believe that’s all you want/need. But Johnson tried something different and some folks kicked back against it. It’s understandable, I guess.

It's definitely true that Last Jedi took things that were hinted at in Force Awakens and took them in a different direction. Then Rise took what Last Jedi did and to an almost comical degree reversed them. It's why everyone can agree that the Sequel Trilogy (ST) is an incoherent mess, while disagreeing on which movie(s) in them are the real problem.

For what it's worth while Last Jedi had some silly stuff in it (Space Mary Poppins being the most indefensible), it at least tried to take what the Force Awakens set up and make sense of it. Like, the whole map to Luke Skywalker thing didn't make any sense at all. So like I get why a lot of people didn't like Curmudgeon Luke, but that's the most logical explanation for why Luke went to a planet off of galactic charts and then cut himself off from everyone.

I just loved that Johnson took a long standing trope in Star Wars that all major characters are born of greatness, that their paths are preordained, and dashed it against the rocks. Rey finds out she's no one, really. And it makes Star Wars so much better because of that. She's no longer bound by destiny and forces beyond her power. She's beholden to no one or nothing. She can be whatever she wants to be. She's going to be important because of the choices SHE makes, not because of her destiny.

Then JJ gets pissed and brings back the chosen one crap again in the last movie.

[Rumpy]

So did Empire. There was little chance you could guess the ending after the original 2 movies.

I couldn't even guess what all happened before Rise of Skywalker. It really feels like there's a movie missing between episode 8 and 9.

Yeah, you're right. And again, that's down to no structure, no sense of direction. I really don't feel the trilogy did any heavy-lifting of its own to create a sense of legacy. Some of the elements were there, but they never really took advantage of them, but they did borrow heavily from the original trilogy, almost too much IMHO as I felt it overshadowed anything of Rey's era. There's nothing left to explore as they didn't bother to create anything interesting, no building blocks. Anything they're proposing with Rey could just as easily be done with a newly created character set about a century later.

Yeah, that's the great missed opportunity of the sequel trilogy. The sad part being that the best option now is probably to basically write the true New Republic era stuff now, set it after Episode IX, and just put Rey in where Luke should've been.

The funny thing is, Rey never finished her training and they want her to rebuild the order?? She's some kind of wunderkind in the movies with her advanced moves. Too badass for training even. And now they expect her to rebuild and perhaps train others.

[El Guapo]

Also I know I've posted this on the forum several times before, but I can't discuss Rise without including a link to the Pitch Meeting. Really does a great job taking down all the stupid aspects of the movie.

[Rumpy]

So did Empire. There was little chance you could guess the ending after the original 2 movies.

I couldn't even guess what all happened before Rise of Skywalker. It really feels like there's a movie missing between episode 8 and 9.

Yeah, you're right. And again, that's down to no structure, no sense of direction. I really don't feel the trilogy did any heavy-lifting of its own to create a sense of legacy. Some of the elements were there, but they never really took advantage of them, but they did borrow heavily from the original trilogy, almost too much IMHO as I felt it overshadowed anything of Rey's era. There's nothing left to explore as they didn't bother to create anything interesting, no building blocks. Anything they're proposing with Rey could just as easily be done with a newly created character set about a century later.

Yeah, that's the great missed opportunity of the sequel trilogy. The sad part being that the best option now is probably to basically write the true New Republic era stuff now, set it after Episode IX, and just put Rey in where Luke should've been.

The funny thing is, Rey never finished her training and they want her to rebuild the order?? She's some kind of wunderkind in the movies with her advanced moves. Too badass for training even. And now they expect her to rebuild and perhaps train others.

Then JJ gets pissed and brings back the chosen one crap again in the last movie.

And it's all because of... SURPRISE, Grandpa Palps! Who somehow magically reappears with no warning, and no hint whatsoever in the previous movies. See folks, this is not how you make a trilogy. You're supposed to seed with some foreshadowing. Did this guy have a box of lucky charms or what.

[El Guapo]

So did Empire. There was little chance you could guess the ending after the original 2 movies.

I couldn't even guess what all happened before Rise of Skywalker. It really feels like there's a movie missing between episode 8 and 9.

Yeah, you're right. And again, that's down to no structure, no sense of direction. I really don't feel the trilogy did any heavy-lifting of its own to create a sense of legacy. Some of the elements were there, but they never really took advantage of them, but they did borrow heavily from the original trilogy, almost too much IMHO as I felt it overshadowed anything of Rey's era. There's nothing left to explore as they didn't bother to create anything interesting, no building blocks. Anything they're proposing with Rey could just as easily be done with a newly created character set about a century later.

Yeah, that's the great missed opportunity of the sequel trilogy. The sad part being that the best option now is probably to basically write the true New Republic era stuff now, set it after Episode IX, and just put Rey in where Luke should've been.

The funny thing is, Rey never finished her training and they want her to rebuild the order?? She's some kind of wunderkind in the movies with her advanced moves. Too badass for training even. And now they expect her to rebuild and perhaps train others.

Yup. I mean, you could argue that Luke never finished his formal training either, I suppose. But "Rey rebuilding the Jedi Order" does have less gravitas and heft than Luke doing it. But you know, what can you do at this point.

[ImLawBoy]

Are you kidding? Luke probably spent 48 hours with Kenobi and then maybe a week or two with Yoda. What more training would he need?

(But here we go again with people not holding the original trilogy to the same standards as what followed.)

[hepcat]

Also, he primarily did a lot of cardio. I simply don't believe that was enough to help him lift an X-Wing.

[El Guapo]

Are you kidding? Luke probably spent 48 hours with Kenobi and then maybe a week or two with Yoda. What more training would he need?

(But here we go again with people not holding the original trilogy to the same standards as what followed.)

For what it's worth Return of the Jedi is a hot mess, except for the last ~ 20 minutes (mainly the confrontation between Luke / Vader / Palpatine). A New Hope and Empire are still legitimately good I think, but Jedi...that really suffered from rewatches with my kids.

[Rumpy]

Are you kidding? Luke probably spent 48 hours with Kenobi and then maybe a week or two with Yoda. What more training would he need?

(But here we go again with people not holding the original trilogy to the same standards as what followed.)

I thought it was pretty much expected that the OT had some silly things going for it, that's why not as much emphasis is put on it. When it comes down to it, though none of it detract from the overall experience, and when Return of the Jedi rolls its credit, we get a complete story. All story arcs are complete, and all characters have had their own journey.

I can't say the same for the sequels. The sequels primarily feel like sets of action sequences strung together, with characters as an afterthought. Villain characters such as Captain Phasma (poor Gwendolyn Christie was so hyped up for a bigger role in the sequel) only to be shortly killed off in TLJ, same with Hux and his spy storyline, all killed for shock value. As a viewer, I had trouble figuring out what was going on, because the writers and directors had trouble putting something cohesive together, something compelling.

[ImLawBoy]

Are you kidding? Luke probably spent 48 hours with Kenobi and then maybe a week or two with Yoda. What more training would he need?

(But here we go again with people not holding the original trilogy to the same standards as what followed.)

For what it's worth Return of the Jedi is a hot mess, except for the last ~ 20 minutes (mainly the confrontation between Luke / Vader / Palpatine). A New Hope and Empire are still legitimately good I think, but Jedi...that really suffered from rewatches with my kids.

New Hope (which I love) is hopelessly stupid. From Luke forming a lifelong bond with Kenobi after knowing him for all of 48 hours to the Alliance thinking it makes sense to let a farmboy with no combat experience and who left his home planet for the first time a few days ago fly a life or death bombing run against the Death Star, it's deeply silly. Empire (which I love) has enormous, deadly space worms living in asteroids with no food source, Luke finding the one spot on a planet to crash his X-wing that happens to be within a short walk of Yoda, Lando hitting on Leia as he's about to deliver her to Vader, Vader and Fett somehow beating the Falcon to Bespin and negotiating a deal with Lando before the good guys can arrive, and the carbon freezer somehow being ready to freeze a living being even though that's not its intended use. Jedi (which I love) - well, it's got some fun action scenes! If any of those movies were released today, they would be torn apart by online fans for all of these flaws in much the same way that everything that comes after is torn apart.

I just get tired of all of the relentless negativity (borderline toxicity) toward all of the non-original trilogy Star Wars stuff when the old stuff suffers from many of the same flaws. There's obviously a sheen of nostalgia that covers the original entries that came out when our generation was young, but either criticize them all the same or just let it go and enjoy the ride (is my philosophy - others obviously disagree).

[Blackhawk]

I still consider Hardware Wars to be canon.

I keep hoping that the next CGI series will be about the Imperial Steamtroopers.

[Blackhawk]

New Hope (which I love) is hopelessly stupid. From Luke forming a lifelong bond with Kenobi after knowing him for all of 48 hours to the Alliance thinking it makes sense to let a farmboy with no combat experience and who left his home planet for the first time a few days ago fly a life or death bombing run against the Death Star, it's deeply silly. Empire (which I love) has enormous, deadly space worms living in asteroids with no food source, Luke finding the one spot on a planet to crash his X-wing that happens to be within a short walk of Yoda, Lando hitting on Leia as he's about to deliver her to Vader, Vader and Fett somehow beating the Falcon to Bespin and negotiating a deal with Lando before the good guys can arrive, and the carbon freezer somehow being ready to freeze a living being even though that's not its intended use. Jedi (which I love) - well, it's got some fun action scenes! If any of those movies were released today, they would be torn apart by online fans for all of these flaws in much the same way that everything that comes after is torn apart.

Which is why it's great science fantasy - but has never been science fiction.

[El Guapo]

Are you kidding? Luke probably spent 48 hours with Kenobi and then maybe a week or two with Yoda. What more training would he need?

(But here we go again with people not holding the original trilogy to the same standards as what followed.)

For what it's worth Return of the Jedi is a hot mess, except for the last ~ 20 minutes (mainly the confrontation between Luke / Vader / Palpatine). A New Hope and Empire are still legitimately good I think, but Jedi...that really suffered from rewatches with my kids.

New Hope (which I love) is hopelessly stupid. From Luke forming a lifelong bond with Kenobi after knowing him for all of 48 hours to the Alliance thinking it makes sense to let a farmboy with no combat experience and who left his home planet for the first time a few days ago fly a life or death bombing run against the Death Star, it's deeply silly. Empire (which I love) has enormous, deadly space worms living in asteroids with no food source, Luke finding the one spot on a planet to crash his X-wing that happens to be within a short walk of Yoda, Lando hitting on Leia as he's about to deliver her to Vader, Vader and Fett somehow beating the Falcon to Bespin and negotiating a deal with Lando before the good guys can arrive, and the carbon freezer somehow being ready to freeze a living being even though that's not its intended use. Jedi (which I love) - well, it's got some fun action scenes! If any of those movies were released today, they would be torn apart by online fans for all of these flaws in much the same way that everything that comes after is torn apart.

I just get tired of all of the relentless negativity (borderline toxicity) toward all of the non-original trilogy Star Wars stuff when the old stuff suffers from many of the same flaws. There's obviously a sheen of nostalgia that covers the original entries that came out when our generation was young, but either criticize them all the same or just let it go and enjoy the ride (is my philosophy - others obviously disagree).

I get that, but while every fantasy / spaghetti western style of film has silly elements, there's a difference between movies that have that while also having weighty character-driven moments that really stay with you. Does Empire have silly moments? Of course. But at the same time the Luke / Yoda stuff on Dagobah has serious, smart stuff to say about good and evil, about philosophy, and about living in tune with the universe. It also has weighty moments involved in the confrontation between Luke and Vader in Cloud City.

People should acknowledge that nostalgia colors their views of the original trilogy vs. subsequent Star Wars. But sweeping together Empire with Rise of Skywalker (for example) because they both have silly elements to them is, well, silly. They do both have silly moments, but Empire is a smart, quality movie and Rise is thoroughly stupid.

[ImLawBoy]

I'm not trying to equate the two exactly. What irks me is the complete free pass that the original trilogy gets vs. the harsh criticism that everything else gets. I would venture a guess that there are some weighty moments in the sequel trilogy (particularly in the middle episode) that match some of the items from the original trilogy. Still, those get swept aside in lieu of criticisms (just as the legit criticisms of the original trilogy often get swept aside).

To be honest, I've only seen Rise of Skywalker once, which may be a commentary on the quality of the movie itself or a nod to my reality that I don't really re-watch a lot of movies these days or probably some of both. At least some of it also comes from me avoiding it due to all the negativity that surrounds it.

[AWS260]

I still consider Hardware Wars to be canon.

I mean, it kind of is:

[Blackhawk]

It's all because the original trilogy is sacred, duh!

Part of the appeal is nostalgia, but a lot of the nostalgia/fond memories of the original trilogy come from how novel it was. There was nothing like it, creating an experience that nobody had ever had, and that makes a huge impression on people. Everything since has been a science fiction action film surrounded by a hundred other science fiction action films. It isn't the world building, or the consistency, or the plotting, or the acting that makes more recent films seem weaker (although they may or may not add to that) - it's the lack of novelty, the fact that the situation in which the original trilogy was released caused it to have a stronger impact than the content of the film alone justifies.

And so a film that is close in quality to the originals will always feel like a weaker film.

[El Guapo]

I'm not trying to equate the two exactly. What irks me is the complete free pass that the original trilogy gets vs. the harsh criticism that everything else gets. I would venture a guess that there are some weighty moments in the sequel trilogy (particularly in the middle episode) that match some of the items from the original trilogy. Still, those get swept aside in lieu of criticisms (just as the legit criticisms of the original trilogy often get swept aside).

To be honest, I've only seen Rise of Skywalker once, which may be a commentary on the quality of the movie itself or a nod to my reality that I don't really re-watch a lot of movies these days or probably some of both. At least some of it also comes from me avoiding it due to all the negativity that surrounds it.

Yeah, I get that. People shouldn't gloss over the flaws in the original trilogy, and I agree that The Last Jedi was (IMO) probably the best of the sequel trilogy because (while it had flaws) of the three movies it was the only one to have decent, interesting character-driven moments.

[Rumpy]

Well yeah, the original trilogy is not some secret masterpiece put on a pedestal or anything. It has its own share of problems, but again, I think the big difference is in how the sequels tell their story, or what it chooses to focus on, and when you put the whole saga together, the differences are rather jarring. I'll even say the Prequel Trilogy has a better more cohesive story than the sequel trilogy, and that's purely from a story standpoint. I mean, say what you will about Lucas, but he at least had a vision to have the prequels cohesive with the original movies, and it's also something the sequel trilogy lacks. It lacks a certain feel tying everything together.

And if you want to get technical, all of them are pretty crappy movies. But what they are is iconic.

[Zarathud]

They implied that Luke tried to save the Galaxy by bringing back the Jedi with his incomplete training. And their teachings continued to be flawed, leaving Luke despondent over his failures and loss of trust.

Rey is no one until she’s forced to choose her fate. And she chooses to start over without fear of the dark side, but to walk in the light side legacy of Skywalker.

[Rumpy]

Yeah, exactly. He put a heavy burden on himself and his failure only led him deeper down the dark path. I consider that character growth. If he hadn't changed at all, then there would also be people complaining that he's been the same since the original trilogy, and IMHO, it's unrealistic to expect someone to be unchanged. Personally, I found it rather refreshing.

One thing that irks me about the original trilogy is Slave Girl Leia. That has aged very poorly, IMHO.

[Unagi]

The entire body of Star Wars material, for me, it would seem - is a lot like pizza.

I almost just kinda like it all... almost. Like actually, I would never take another bite of Ep I, II, and III - but just about all of the rest of it, I more-or-less enjoyed... I will also take Book-of-BobaFett entirely off my menu too (sadly as it had a few good moments, but honestly is painful to take in that whole series...) But really - otherwise, I just enjoy the Star Wars universe enough to really not hold it to too high a standard. It's where Andor stands out (IMO), in that it's sincerely some really good pizza there. Now as any good Star Wars fan, I also like pointing out its absurdities or failed plotlines, etc - and so I think I hold the OT and the ST at just about the same level of excellence.

Where I would start to complain is if I felt the stories were starting to make me say Good-Bye to it all, and after surviving Ep I, II, and III - I think I've got a thick skin for all of the new content and it's mostly fun for me to watch. Not frustrating and depressing - like Ep I, II, and III.... where I generally thought that I would likely move on entirely if that's what Star Wars was going to be. f***ing Anakin. That was a crime.

[Unagi]

One thing that irks me about the original trilogy is Slave Girl Leia. That has aged very poorly, IMHO.

IDK, it makes some degree of classic sci-fi sense for the space-princess-bad-ass to pretend to be weak and a victim of the oppressor, only to choke him with her chains.
My drooling over Slave Girl Leia 35 years ago hasn't aged well, but I have found ways to forgive myself for that.

[Rumpy]

Yeah, it is what it is, I guess. I'll just never look at it quite the same way though, as it comes across as pretty blatant nowadays.

FWIW, I like your pizza analogy. Pizza with lots of Cheese Only, for some of them, the cheese is seen as slipping off.

[Unagi]

Yeah, it is what it is, I guess. I'll just never look at it quite the same way though, as it comes across as pretty blatant nowadays.

FWIW, I like your pizza analogy. Pizza with lots of Cheese Only, for some of them, the cheese is seen as slipping off.

Well, that's just because you are holding the slice wrong. Fold it a bit, and it can still be enjoyed.

[Blackhawk]

All of this comparison between the OT and the ST is well and good, but what about the ED?

Spoiler:

The Ewok Duology

[Rumpy]

Yeah, it is what it is, I guess. I'll just never look at it quite the same way though, as it comes across as pretty blatant nowadays.

FWIW, I like your pizza analogy. Pizza with lots of Cheese Only, for some of them, the cheese is seen as slipping off.

Well, that's just because you are holding the slice wrong. Fold it a bit, and it can still be enjoyed.

Hate to bring another debate into this and open a whole new can of worms, but some people like me eat them with a knife and fork

[Scuzz]

The second sequel basically changed everything the first sequel set up.

It certainly did. It tried to add a mature storyline instead of following the trend of teen action film.

What storyline in the second sequel do you consider “mature”. Space Leia? The gambling planet maybe? The “death” of Luke?

Luke’s questioning of the force and its religious reverence, the destruction of the whole “chosen one” story that previous entries relied upon, to name two.

You’ve been fed a children’s version of knights and dragons so long that you’ve probably come to believe that’s all you want/need. But Johnson tried something different and some folks kicked back against it. It’s understandable, I guess.

Yea, the problem with the movie was my understanding of knights and dragons.

[hepcat]

Well, that and your belief that that’s as high as a Star Wars film should reach.

[Scuzz]

The second sequel basically changed everything the first sequel set up.

It certainly did. It tried to add a mature storyline instead of following the trend of teen action film.

What storyline in the second sequel do you consider “mature”. Space Leia? The gambling planet maybe? The “death” of Luke?

Luke’s questioning of the force and its religious reverence, the destruction of the whole “chosen one” story that previous entries relied upon, to name two.

You’ve been fed a children’s version of knights and dragons so long that you’ve probably come to believe that’s all you want/need. But Johnson tried something different and some folks kicked back against it. It’s understandable, I guess.

It's definitely true that Last Jedi took things that were hinted at in Force Awakens and took them in a different direction. Then Rise took what Last Jedi did and to an almost comical degree reversed them. It's why everyone can agree that the Sequel Trilogy (ST) is an incoherent mess, while disagreeing on which movie(s) in them are the real problem.

For what it's worth while Last Jedi had some silly stuff in it (Space Mary Poppins being the most indefensible), it at least tried to take what the Force Awakens set up and make sense of it. Like, the whole map to Luke Skywalker thing didn't make any sense at all. So like I get why a lot of people didn't like Curmudgeon Luke, but that's the most logical explanation for why Luke went to a planet off of galactic charts and then cut himself off from everyone.

I just loved that Johnson took a long standing trope in Star Wars that all major characters are born of greatness, that their paths are preordained, and dashed it against the rocks. Rey finds out she's no one, really. And it makes Star Wars so much better because of that. She's no longer bound by destiny and forces beyond her power. She's beholden to no one or nothing. She can be whatever she wants to be. She's going to be important because of the choices SHE makes, not because of her destiny.

Then JJ gets pissed and brings back the chosen one crap again in the last movie.

Except Rey was the chosen one and she was someone. She was a Palpatine and was chosen to be the sacrificial lamb.

Just as Luke was someone.

The real problem was you don’t make a trilogy without some idea of where it’s going and Johnson changed the path. You can argue the first was headed in the wrong direction but you can’t just flip things around in the second movie. Imagine if Frodo had given the ring away in the second movie.

We can both agree the sequel is flawed, in more than one way.

[hepcat]

Except Rey was the chosen one and she was someone. She was a Palpatine and was chosen to be the sacrificial lamb.

I agree, it was lazy writing.

Just as Luke was someone.

Yup, so even more lazy writing to return to that well yet again.

The real problem was you don’t make a trilogy without some idea of where it’s going and Johnson changed the path. You and argue the first was headed in the wrong direction but you can’t just flip things around in the second movie. Imagine if Frodo had given the ring away in the second movie.

Thank god he changed the path. Because the one we were heading down was worn down to the center of the earth from so many people taking it. Too bad JJ was too lazy to take a better one too.

[Scuzz]

Even on its own Johnson’s version sucked. And in saying that I am in no way defending the other movies.

[hepcat]

I know. It didn’t have knights and dragons.

[Jeff V]

I still consider Hardware Wars to be canon.

I keep hoping that the next CGI series will be about the Imperial Steamtroopers.

What about a SW version of Enemy at the Gates, featuring a Stormtrooper that can actually shoot straight?

[Rumpy]

A Stormtrooper that can shoot straight is a defective Stormtrooper!

But yeah, I think that'd make for a pretty entertaining SW movie.

The real problem was you don’t make a trilogy without some idea of where it’s going and Johnson changed the path. You can argue the first was headed in the wrong direction but you can’t just flip things around in the second movie. Imagine if Frodo had given the ring away in the second movie.

What they should have done, with SW being such an iconic franchise and also given that they were mainline movies continuing a saga, was to have some sort of a masterplan for the directors to follow. But it appears they didn't, hence the change in direction with the second movie. And I know some people find the whole Luke thing in The Last Jedi unpalatable, but at the very least, I think J.J shouldn't have had such a course correction and instead stayed committed to the direction it was going in with Rise. I think it hurt the trilogy to not have consistency. The end result was quite chaotic.

[Scuzz]

I know. It didn’t have knights and dragons.

You are such a troll.

[Scuzz]

A Stormtrooper that can shoot straight is a defective Stormtrooper!

But yeah, I think that'd make for a pretty entertaining SW movie.

The real problem was you don’t make a trilogy without some idea of where it’s going and Johnson changed the path. You can argue the first was headed in the wrong direction but you can’t just flip things around in the second movie. Imagine if Frodo had given the ring away in the second movie.

What they should have done, with SW being such an iconic franchise and also given that they were mainline movies continuing a saga, was to have some sort of a masterplan for the directors to follow. But it appears they didn't, hence the change in direction with the second movie. And I know some people find the whole Luke thing in The Last Jedi unpalatable, but at the very least, I think J.J shouldn't have had such a course correction and instead stayed committed to the direction it was going in with Rise. I think it hurt the trilogy to not have consistency. The end result was quite chaotic.

I am not defending Abrams but Johnson’s going off on his own doesn’t make the first movie, or whatever plot had previously been fashioned, however much you disagree with it disappear or be something to be ignored.

You can’t restart a trilogy by reinventing everything in the second act.

[Scuzz]

I still consider Hardware Wars to be canon.

I keep hoping that the next CGI series will be about the Imperial Steamtroopers.

What about a SW version of Enemy at the Gates, featuring a Stormtrooper that can actually shoot straight?

I do wish they would make a “man in the street” series about a stormtrooper.

[Rumpy]

A Stormtrooper that can shoot straight is a defective Stormtrooper!

But yeah, I think that'd make for a pretty entertaining SW movie.

The real problem was you don’t make a trilogy without some idea of where it’s going and Johnson changed the path. You can argue the first was headed in the wrong direction but you can’t just flip things around in the second movie. Imagine if Frodo had given the ring away in the second movie.

What they should have done, with SW being such an iconic franchise and also given that they were mainline movies continuing a saga, was to have some sort of a masterplan for the directors to follow. But it appears they didn't, hence the change in direction with the second movie. And I know some people find the whole Luke thing in The Last Jedi unpalatable, but at the very least, I think J.J shouldn't have had such a course correction and instead stayed committed to the direction it was going in with Rise. I think it hurt the trilogy to not have consistency. The end result was quite chaotic.

I am not defending Abrams but Johnson’s going off on his own doesn’t make the first movie, or whatever plot had previously been fashioned, however much you disagree with it disappear or be something to be ignored.

You can’t restart a trilogy by reinventing everything in the second act.

Which is what I've been saying. They all needed to follow a general layout for what they wanted to happen, and to agree to it from the start, not to suddenly decide they had a better vision than the other.

[hepcat]

I know. It didn’t have knights and dragons.

You are such a troll.

I think we both have been trolling. But I thought it was all in good fun. If you felt otherwise, then I apologize.

[Scuzz]

I know. It didn’t have knights and dragons.

You are such a troll.

I think we both have been trolling. But I thought it was all in good fun. If you felt otherwise, then I apologize.

No, I enjoyed the interaction. I think if you go back through this thread this wasn’t the first time we have had this conversation.