[WW] Fallen 3 - Game Over - Please Insert Quarter

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:02 pm

The ending here is set in stone. I think he was just trying something different.

And Ralph, would you mind terribly casting a vote?

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:07 pm

Sure. Austin.

But if he's not the last one, that means it's you Bakhtosh, right (though that seems fairly unlikely)?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:19 pm

I am today's scanner, I am scanning Bahktosh.
Austin

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:38 pm

Remus West wrote:I am today's scanner, I am scanning Bahktosh.
Austin

Too late. Unless you had your scan in a while back. Oh well. I've been at 3 votes for a while.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:45 pm

If Austin isn't the last Fallen, then you need to look here before you look at me.

pr0ner wrote:Well, it was a 50-50 shot.

Austin is indeed Fallen, by the way.

And since no one else claimed to be the chosen yesterday, it MUST mean that pr0ner is a drone. So if a drone is lying, we're all just screwed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:30 pm

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:42 pm

Okay, look at it like this:

There is 1 Celestial Archon. Ralph has claimed that since day 1 with no detractors.

That leaves:

Bakhtosh
Remus West
pr0ner
Austin

Of that group, I was the chosen for 3 days in a row without a single contradiction. It's safe to say I'm a Drone.
Remus was cleared by the scanner.
pr0ner was chosen yesterday without a single contradiction. Everyone else checked in and denied it. He says Austin is Fallen.

So there are 4 "proven" Celestials.
That leaves Austin.

If Austin is NOT the last Fallen, we're screwed since everyone else is proven.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:54 pm

Austin wrote:
Remus West wrote:I am today's scanner, I am scanning Bahktosh.
Austin
Too late. Unless you had your scan in a while back. Oh well. I've been at 3 votes for a while.

I figured it doesn't really matter this round and B outlined why. I wanted to lynch you yesterday you dark bastage.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:21 pm

Remus West wrote:
Austin wrote:
Remus West wrote:I am today's scanner, I am scanning Bahktosh.
Austin
Too late. Unless you had your scan in a while back. Oh well. I've been at 3 votes for a while.
I figured it doesn't really matter this round and B outlined why. I wanted to lynch you yesterday you dark bastage.

Maybe waiting for a trial is prudent; haven't you been watching the news? Seriously though, this is about to get interesting.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:29 am

Bakhtosh - Austin
pr0ner - Austin
Ralph-Wiggum - Austin
Remus West - Austin
Austin -
Austin?
AUSTIN?
hmmm.

With a unanimous vote of the surviving Host, Bakhtosh and pr0ner berated poor Remus for wasting the chance to enter the Trance of Truth. Remus pointedly pointed out his point... there was no need. *HE* knew he wasn't the one. Ralph sighed. He knew the end had come. The assassin would take him down. If only they could find Austin to sacrifice.
They checked his domicile and found only a note on the bedside table...
"I've popped out for a loaf of bread, a carton of milk, and a stick of butter. BRB luv Austin"
"Curses" they exclaimed and hurried on to Ralph-Wiggums, sure he would be lying in wait for the Archon to fulfill his purpose.
But all they foud was another note, this one on Ralphs pillow...

A life for a life, until we meet again

...

(flash The End?)
(fade to black)
(cue music)

I see a red door and I want it painted black
No colors anymore I want them to turn black
I see the Host walk by dressed in their blasted robes
I have to turn my head until my darkness goes

End Credits:

1. Austin - Fallen Assassin
2. Ralph-Wiggum - Light Archon
3. Mr Bubbles - Murdered in the Dark (Drone)
4. pr0ner - Drone
5. Kelric - Sacrificed by Day (First Among the Fallen)
6. Kraegor - Sacrificed by Day (Drone)
7. Genghis - Consumed by Black Fire (Drone)
8. Newcastle - Sacrificed by Day (Fallen Martyr)
9. Bakhtosh - Drone
10. Silky - Sacrificed by Day (Drone)
11. tru1cy - Murdered in the Dark (Drone)
12. Remus West - Drone
13. Lassr - Murdered in the Dark (Seeker)

GOOD GUYS WIN!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:07 am

Good game. How do you think it would have gone without a the scanner and just drones?

Silky · Post by **Silky** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:53 am

Real tough one for the bad guys to win. Congratz on making it interesting.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:02 am

I was surprised the game lasted this long since the light side is so heavily favored.

And rats on being the last person to die!

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:16 am

and I was sooooo close to submitting Austin as my night 2 scan. But Remus kept talking about scan me so I can prove my innocence and Bakhtosh suggested Remus so I went with Remus. Dammit. Would have been sweet to go 2 for 2.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:18 am

Lassr wrote:and I was sooooo close to submitting Austin as my night 2 scan. But Remus kept talking about scan me so I can prove my innocence and Bakhtosh suggested Remus so I went with Remus. Dammit. Would have been sweet to go 2 for 2.

I was positive I was getting scanned but somehow managed to avoid it night after night.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:44 am

Austin wrote:
Lassr wrote:and I was sooooo close to submitting Austin as my night 2 scan. But Remus kept talking about scan me so I can prove my innocence and Bakhtosh suggested Remus so I went with Remus. Dammit. Would have been sweet to go 2 for 2.
I was positive I was getting scanned but somehow managed to avoid it night after night.

early and mid game I didn't suspect you, and actually the day I posted I'm scanning Austin tonight I actually submitted kraegor. I thought at that time your were innocent and was hoping the fallen were morons and would let me waste a scan and live another night...

I picked Kelric the first night because I asked myself who would the first fallen choose as the low profile player and I decided on Kelric, turns out he was #1.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:07 am

I think nixing the dedicated scanner role would help the Dark, but it would also really hurt the light. You're not just losing the scanner's powers, but you're setting up a situation where the dark has no other targets but the drones who are scanning/being scanned.

The advantage the Light had in this game is that the Dark had to choose between slaying the proven or trying to find the scanner.

I think that if you could take away the scanner's power and replace it with something else...give the Dark a reason to want this guy slain at night...maybe killing him kills an additional Light, but lynching him doesn't...like a Twin type role.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:08 am

When I was chosen I think I typed

to Chaos. I thought crap, I don't want to be a bad guy and die day 1. I figured I was the worst choice out there but Kelric turned out to be smrt. (even though the Germans are mad at me

)

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:18 am

The Archon is also overpowered, IMO. There's no reason for him not to just announce himself (other than having the Dark waste a night) and, assuming that the Archon has revealed himself, the only way the Dark can win is by having one of their own lynched.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:20 am

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:The Archon is also overpowered, IMO. There's no reason for him not to just announce himself (other than having the Dark waste a night) and, assuming that the Archon has revealed himself, the only way the Dark can win is by having one of their own lynched.

When I left that note by your pillow I also... well... you'll find out.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:21 am

The dark could win by getting down to 3-3 or better.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:35 am

Austin wrote:When I was chosen I think I typed to Chaos. I thought crap, I don't want to be a bad guy and die day 1. I figured I was the worst choice out there but Kelric turned out to be smrt. (even though the Germans are mad at me )

I just knew that they wouldn't choose you because of the large bounty on your head now and it just went up after this game. And what were the odds that you were the first fallen. Guess Kelric used that reverse psychology that I've heard so much about.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:48 am

I'd also like to remind everyone that in this game, the Light only had 3 misses available, and had I not hit Newcastle on Day 1, things could have gotten ugly real quick.

Of course, if I hadn't been chosen 3 days in a row, it might have been over quicker...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:02 am

Bakhtosh wrote:I'd also like to remind everyone that in this game, the Light only had 3 misses available, and had I not hit Newcastle on Day 1, things could have gotten ugly real quick.

Of course, if I hadn't been chosen 3 days in a row, it might have been over quicker...

Yeah, your 3 days in a row helped for sure. Any pre-trusted drone would be key.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:29 pm

Lassr wrote:
Austin wrote:When I was chosen I think I typed to Chaos. I thought crap, I don't want to be a bad guy and die day 1. I figured I was the worst choice out there but Kelric turned out to be smrt. (even though the Germans are mad at me )
I just knew that they wouldn't choose you because of the large bounty on your head now and it just went up after this game. And what were the odds that you were the first fallen. Guess Kelric used that reverse psychology that I've heard so much about.

I chose him precisely because everybody wanted him lynched. I was actually hoping he'd get lynched in the first day or two and kill off the one guy we couldn't remove at night.

Of course, then it turns out that the guy was the one we DID target the first night.

And Newcastle was chosen to give us a low profile player. I knew I went with all high profilers last time I got to choose (that was a fun game, too) and that Remus might be expecting me to do the opposite, so I tried to mix it up.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:35 pm

Ok, now that we're in the aftergame, let me explain my balance:

13 Players
Bad Guys kill 1
Day One 12 (3 bad + 9 Good) = 11
Bad kill 1
Day Two 10 (3 bad + 7 Good) = 9
Bad kill 1
Day Three 8 (3 bad + 5 Good) = 7
Bad kill 1
Day Four 6 (3 bad + 3 good) Bad Guys win.

So the bad guys need to Miss trying to kill the Light Archon and avoid getting lynched.
3 Strikes and the Village is Out.

Now, if either of the explosive Bad Guys get lynched...
The numbers become:
kill
12 = 10 (1bad+boom)
kill 9 at night
9 = 8 (2 to 6)
kill 7 at night
7 = 6 (2 to 4)
kill 5 at night
5 = 4 (2 to 2) Bad Guys win
3 Strikes and the Village is Out.

If BOTH explosives:
12 = 10 (1bad+boom)
kill 9 at night
9 = 7 (bad + boom) (1 to 6)
kill 6 at night
6 = 5 (1 to 4)
kill 4 at night
4 = 3 (1 to 2)
kill 2 at night, Bad Guys Win
TWO STRIKES and the Bad Guys Win...

Now with 13 players, there are 10 Targets for the Bad Guys to kill.
One is the Seer. Given 3 Chances to Try to kill him that's 30% without him coming forth.
When a Drone comes forth that INCREASES the odds of finding the Seer.
The Seer trying to find 3 Bad Guys in 12 is a 1/4 starting (normal)
The Seers odds get better with a Drone coming out.

The bulletproof guy gives the Village ONE extra chance when the Bad Guys lose a night and one night ONLY as he will not become a target again.

Honestly I would have expected the Explosive Assassin to proclaim himself the Light Archon right away.
If the Real One came out, then the village chooses. Choose the Light Archon and he's dead. Then they Lynch the Assassin the next day. But it counts as One Miss. They lynch the Assassin as their choice? Oh well, he takes the Light Archon out with him.
Then the Martyr comes out as Drone or Seer. The Real One comes out. They choose the Martyr to Lynch. BOOM. One Random goes down with him.
Now the First is in a Single Chance for the Village to find (see double explosive scenario above)

I suppose I was expecting quite a bit more of the "No, *I*m the Archon/Seeker/Drone" intrigue with an accelerated Scan and Death Rate.

The Bad Luck in this Game?

Hitting the Light Archon first night.

The Seeker scanning the First on the first night.

I guess honestly I was expecting a quick bloody game as the two explosive Fallen take someone out with them. Is my math wrong?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:45 pm

Why come out as the Archon? The Village has a Drone who can proclaim one of the archons to be real or not - that day. (well dusk I guess) If they find one to be lying they kill him. If not they kill the other the next day. It buys you nothing in this game because of the daily drone scan. They could even leave the known enemy around for a day or two if they wanted. A life for a life didn't make sense to us when we have 3 lives and there is so much scanning going on.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:51 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Is my math wrong?

I don't know, I never pay attention to the math in these games.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:48 pm

Kelric wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:Is my math wrong?
I don't know, I never pay attention to the math in these games.

+100000

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:36 pm

I think it would work better if the Scanner Drone lost his ability to scan that day if he announced it. It would have to carry a secondary rule of everyone else not posting "I'm not the scanner drone" or something to avoid the situation that happened in my Monty Python game with Dennis but it would allow the Drones to gather some knowledge slowly but would eliminate the "trusted" scanner guys.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:44 pm

ya know, i think the good guys obviously kicked some tail in this one. And on the surface it would seem as if the rules were bent toward the light. however, with CR's theorizing, it does make it seem plausible. Ubnfortunately, the light had a strong streak going there. Baktosh nailed me with his first scan, and Lassr hit Kelric with his first. Those were two great bits of luck for the light in this one.

I think being able to organize the scan was an obvious boon for the light. And I do agree with Remus that something should be done about that.

Also, I think Ralph being indestructible hurt us. We knocked up against it on the first night, and while we found out whom it was...it set us back 1 night.

Anyway, was enjoyable as always. Also, Tosh, why did you want to scan me? you mentioned something about me saying something that set you off. Simply curious.

I also did the math late in the game, and i realized that Austin was a dead man walking. Because you guys could do drone verification scheme.

I think the obvious remedy to bring balance would be to anul the sccan if the Drone announces it, or makes it obvious (i think hinting should be allowed, but nothing blatant. The other remedy is that the scan is not given until the following morning. To give the Dark a chance to figure out who has the scan, and try to take em out.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:00 pm

The problem is that the Dark can never kill off the Light's seer ability (due to the drone role passing each day). It makes it too easy for the Light to establish a base of trust.

What if the Dark side could also be randomly selected as a drone? That would make things interesting, because the Light couldn't automatically trust the drone even if there were no contradictions.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:07 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:The problem is that the Dark can never kill off the Light's seer ability (due to the drone role passing each day). It makes it too easy for the Light to establish a base of trust.

What if the Dark side could also be randomly selected as a drone? That would make things interesting, because the Light couldn't automatically trust the drone even if there were no contradictions.

If you take out the ability to talk about the scan, probably need to do something afterwards as well...maybe if the Drone talks about his scan other than to say something to the effect of "I will not vote for Remus because he is cool" the Drone dies...then the trusted blocks remain small. The likelyhood of having several scans over a period of days (B excepted in this case) is small enough that each individual Drone does not get that much info to work with and each night kill likely takes some pieces with it.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:36 pm

Remus West wrote:If you take out the ability to talk about the scan, probably need to do something afterwards as well...maybe if the Drone talks about his scan other than to say something to the effect of "I will not vote for Remus because he is cool" the Drone dies...

so if the drone comes out and says "I found a fallen and it is ______" he then dies? or only if he announces he found an innocent?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:02 am

Lassr wrote:
Remus West wrote:If you take out the ability to talk about the scan, probably need to do something afterwards as well...maybe if the Drone talks about his scan other than to say something to the effect of "I will not vote for Remus because he is cool" the Drone dies...
so if the drone comes out and says "I found a fallen and it is ______" he then dies? or only if he announces he found an innocent?

Either. Scan gives you and only you information. You could certainly work to start a bandwagon on a bad guy you found but you couldn't come out and say it was because of a scan without dying.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:15 am

Newcastle wrote:The other remedy is that the scan is not given until the following morning. To give the Dark a chance to figure out who has the scan, and try to take em out.

I think this would work pretty well as both the Drone scanning and the traget of the scan are possible fodder that night.

I also like the idea that the Bad Guys are included in the possible people who "scan"

It would allow them to Hide among the Drones, whereas this game did not unless they were willing to go BOOM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:59 am

Chaosraven wrote:
Newcastle wrote:The other remedy is that the scan is not given until the following morning. To give the Dark a chance to figure out who has the scan, and try to take em out.
I think this would work pretty well as both the Drone scanning and the traget of the scan are possible fodder that night.

I also like the idea that the Bad Guys are included in the possible people who "scan"

It would allow them to Hide among the Drones, whereas this game did not unless they were willing to go BOOM.

We would have liked that very much. Very much indeed.

Bakhtosh · Post by **Bakhtosh** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:02 am

I wouldn't get TOO radical with the changes. Like Newcastle said, the light hitting 2 of the bad guys early on really put them behind. This ruleset might need a couple more runs to determine the balance.

There might need to be a slight tweak to the drone scan, but I'd keep the change minor. Maybe removing the scanner role (for a pool of 13 players...if there are more players, you might need to keep the scanner).

As was mentioned earlier, worst case scenario, would give the Light only 2 misses.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:26 am

I don't see how it's possible for the Dark to win unless one of them manages to fool everyone else about being a drone/the scanner. Say there are 13 players. After the first day there are 11 players (assume that two innocents die). But, the Archon can reveal himself without consequences, the drone can reveal himself (and most likely won't be contradicted), and the scanner can reveal himself (again, probably without contradiction). Add in their two scans and after one day you have 5 confirmed innocents.

Each day, they can add one more to their rank (assuming that the Dark goes after a confirmed innocent). How would it ever be possible for the Dark to reduce the field 3 innocents (the minimum number needed for them to win)?

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:35 am

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:I don't see how it's possible for the Dark to win unless one of them manages to fool everyone else about being a drone/the scanner. Say there are 13 players. After the first day there are 11 players (assume that two innocents die). But, the Archon can reveal himself without consequences, the drone can reveal himself (and most likely won't be contradicted), and the scanner can reveal himself (again, probably without contradiction). Add in their two scans and after one day you have 5 confirmed innocents.

Each day, they can add one more to their rank (assuming that the Dark goes after a confirmed innocent). How would it ever be possible for the Dark to reduce the field 3 innocents (the minimum number needed for them to win)?

The Dark have to bluff before it's too late. They have to come forward be challenged hopefully 2nd to get 3 light to one dark with minimal information serving the village. (Kill Drone by vote, kill his scan (if light) at night, lose Archon, and archon killer the next day) This advantage also has light member being killed on either side of the equation. It's mostly about luck if the dark are actually actively perpetrating lies rather than hiding.