Redfive wrote:If you have a group in person, what Blackhawk said.
If you don't have a group but want to try playing online there are several virtual tabletop (VTT) programs you can use. I use Fantasy Grounds Unity, but there is also Roll20, Foundry and several others available.
Do you have a group of people or are you literally by yourself and want to learn?
Literally by myself and would like to learn.
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Okay, assuming you have done literally no research I would start with a quick video to introduce you to the basics.
This one does a very good job of giving you a high level overview of things without getting too bogged down in details.
Secondly, you should join the OO discord if you haven't already. Here's an invitation link:
Message me if you want when you get on and I can be available pretty much any time (I keep it in the background while at work) to answer questions.
If you are available this evening we are playing at 9 CST and you would be more than welcome to hop on discord and listen. If interested I'll show you how you can download Fantasy Grounds (VTT). It's free for players as I have an ultimate license as the DM. If you choose to join us tonight I would seriously suggest you watch at least the video I linked above as we are in the middle of a multi-session dungeon and we will get into the jargon rather quickly.
My impression was more that they were seeing all of the players throwing money at Roll20/Fantasy Grounds and wanted in on the action - I'm guessing that Beyond made them a fair amount of money, and WotC has always been a little weird when it comes to digital products.
The one thing that I can't find a clear answer on - will there be a physical version? Or is it going to be digital only?
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:26 am
The one thing that I can't find a clear answer on - will there be a physical version? Or is it going to be digital only?
They haven't said exactly. I suspect there will be physical, but that overwhelmingly the pressure will be to go digital. I think they've realized how much money they've left on the table. Just for my own experience, I've spent hundreds of dollars on books and then another $150 to be able to play on Fantasy Grounds and run games as a DM. My players? Not a single dollar - they just join for free and have access to everything.
I'm expecting that to change where there is core online content available for a basic fee and then tons and tons of micro transactions through their new service. Want specialized kits or character classes? That's $5. Want to get specific weapons or armor for your avatar? That's $0.99 for each item. Shifting the financial element back to the players so everyone is sending them money - even if it's just tiny amounts.
I've watched a few previews and read a bunch of opinion pieces over the last few months and they seem to echo what I'm feeling - that they're really trying to take this fully into the digital age and make sure they benefit ($) from doing so. How they'll support offline play and "theater of the mind" style gaming, I'm not sure.
What's interesting (to me at least) is that as the proposed changes to 5E are coming out, it's definitely taking 5E down a few notches for me. Haven't played in a while, but while we were playing it was frustrating at times to get the balance right - I never felt like I was able to quite hit the sweet spot of challenge and fun. Characters feel very, very overpowered and trying to adjust for that hasn't been easy. The overall balance just feels off - like everything is about creating super powerful players relatively quickly. More...heroic (in a movie sense) - where they have plot armor and are able to do things that make for great "cinematic moments" but over time bleed out the fun because there's no challenge.
I dunno. I've been thinking a lot about it lately in trying to find motivation to resume playing.
Before one of my players Trumploded my D&D group, we had moved away from D&D and were scratching that particular itch with Pathfinder 2nd Edition, which I found to be a better game. D&D 5e has one big flaw in its character advancement system: Almost every interesting choice about your character will have been made by level 3. After that you're just writing down what you are given. Sure, you might pick a new favored enemy or fighting style, but all of the significant branches have passed by the time you're out of the 'tutorial' levels.
I toyed with the idea (switching systems). I get the connection (having dabbled with the Pathfinder system via computer and the board/card game), I just worry our old-man brains will struggle a bit. I dunno. Maybe I'll look into it. I was also looking at some more basic OSR-style titles and even trying to perhaps jump into the Dungeon Crawl Classics (maybe Sci-Fi variant to break fantasy expectations).
I do think perhaps I need to just stick with shorter one-shot or 3-5 session adventures. I made the jump into a full-blown campaign last year and trying to stay on top of it burned me out...hard.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:44 pm
Before one of my players Trumploded my D&D group, we had moved away from D&D and were scratching that particular itch with Pathfinder 2nd Edition, which I found to be a better game. D&D 5e has one big flaw in its character advancement system: Almost every interesting choice about your character will have been made by level 3. After that you're just writing down what you are given. Sure, you might pick a new favored enemy or fighting style, but all of the significant branches have passed by the time you're out of the 'tutorial' levels.
I find a lot of Pathfinder 2 to be very elegant. For example, critical successes are if you succeed by 10 and critical failures are if you fail by 10. Then it is very clear for effects that if you try a fear effect on someone (for example), then if they fail their save they are Frghtened 1 and if they critical fail then they are Frightened 2. And if they failed a separate fear effect on the same turn, it becomes Frightened 3. It makes it much easier to keep track of things like that. It’s still more complicated than 5e, but in a good way (in my mind).
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:27 pm
I get the connection (having dabbled with the Pathfinder system via computer and the board/card game), I just worry our old-man brains will struggle a bit.
Then it sounds like you have dabbled with Pathfinder 1st Edition, which was mostly the same as D&D 3.5. I'm talking about Pathfinder 2nd Edition, which streamlined the rules significantly after 5e kicked their asses by making rules that didn't require a supercomputer to run combat, and a small bookshelf to make a character. Pathfinder 2e plays (weight-wise) about the same as 5e. It is still a rules-medium system (like 5e and Savage Worlds), but it is no longer the rules-heavy system that it was before (and on which the PC games were based.)
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 2:36 pm
Then it sounds like you have dabbled with Pathfinder 1st Edition, which was mostly the same as D&D 3.5. I'm talking about Pathfinder 2nd Edition, which streamlined the rules significantly after 5e kicked their asses by making rules that didn't require a supercomputer to run combat, and a small bookshelf to make a character. Pathfinder 2e plays (weight-wise) about the same as 5e. It is still a rules-medium system (like 5e and Savage Worlds), but it is no longer the rules-heavy system that it was before (and on which the PC games were based.)
Ah, yes. I knew there was a newer edition but I didn't realize it was refined that much - I just figured it was still like D&D 3.5 because that's what people were looking for - something that was updated to include new classes, tweaks to combat, using more inclusive language, etc... I didn't realize it was more of a direct response to 5E. I'll take a look, thanks!
Sometimes I do wonder if part of my (our?) issue is that for us (me?) AD&D is the gold standard - that's what we all (still) have the fondest memories of. Parts of 5E seem to feel like I remember AD&D, but it's just...off. And I'm not even sure if we went back to playing AD&D that would work either (oddly enough). That makes me think trying to do not-fantasy might be better - because our expectations aren't there.
When my group stopped, we'd been playing PF2, but for most of the last couple of years prior we'd done the same thing, moving away from the crunchier d20 systems (although not as crunchy as their predecessors) in favor of lighter, faster rules. Lots of Savage Worlds, and I was looking at Shadow of the Demon Lord (for my psuedo-Warhammer fix.) We'd tried some PbtA titles (Dungeon World et al) and Fate, and I loved them... but my group just couldn't get the idea of sharing the narrative over having the DM tell them what to do, which really held them back and turned them into a headache to run.
Same problem with my group when it comes to PbtA and FATE
Also they are from a strong competitive board game and war game feedback so the Light/Dark mechanic in Edge of the Empire and the threat/doom mechanic in 2d20 they refuse to use because it's "helping the GM and hurting them".
I also have all the Shadow of the Demonlord stuff and like the system but it has never hit the table
IceBear wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:45 pm
Also they are from a strong competitive board game and war game feedback so the Light/Dark mechanic in Edge of the Empire and the threat/doom mechanic in 2d20 they refuse to use because it's "helping the GM and hurting them".
Ha! When I played Edge of the Empire, we ended up with exactly the same issue - a big pile of Light Side points that nobody was willing to touch because it shut down the GM from gaining dark side points. Likewise, I had one hell of a time getting them to narrate the special effects from the dice. They just wanted to know what numerical effect they had!
One thing that helped, and it was a process that I was still working on: First, I had them play a few games of Fiasco. Given that there is no GM and no stats, it got the idea of pure roleplaying into their brains. Second, when running other games, I implemented/tweaked the rules to include ways to push the narrative onto the players. Bennies (Savage Worlds), Advantage (5e), and... Fate Chips? Whatever the PF2 version is. Anyway, I reworked all of them to add options to allow the players to narratively add elements to the world/story. Running from the Sheriff? Play a bennie to declare that there is an unwatched horse on the hitching post at the end of the alley you're running down (and yeah - I ran a lot of Deadlands, too.)
Right. They normally don't feel that way but those specific systems have rules that can lead to that feeling...I saw other GMs mention that online.
For example in 2d20 Conan the scenario might say that a GM can spend 2 Doom to add a Pict minion to an encounter. When a player rolls he can choose to give the GM Doom in order to get extra dice when attempting something. So they'd rather fail than give Doom because it's "not smart tactically"
I remind them that I'm not out to get them and there's nothing stopping me from just adding extras to the encounter like you could in any other game. It's just the mechanic makes them feel like it's me vs them
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:50 pm
I've never had a situation where players feel I'm in an adversarial relationship with them while role-playing. That's...tough.
It's more of a voluntary push-pull mechanic in that particular Star Wars game. It's been years, so I may have some specifics wrong, but as I recall, you have two sided tokens, white on one side, black on the other. If they use certain abilities, it flips a white (light side) token over to a black (dark side) token that the GM can use. It's literally giving the GM an advantage later in order to gain an advantage now. The problem is that it's an important narrative mechanic, but crunchy players aren't willing to give the GM an advantage. They wait until they're all light side, then don't touch them, sucking a mechanical and narrative feature right out of the game.
Sort of the way many players never touch inspiration in 5e (it's too powerful and too limited - you have it or you don't, so you're afraid to use it), or the way players are afraid to play their bennies in Savage Worlds (because one function is to allow them soak damage in combat, so they're not willing to use them for anything else.)
They're fun, atmospheric mechanics that fail to take into account human nature.
IceBear wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:45 pm
Also they are from a strong competitive board game and war game feedback so the Light/Dark mechanic in Edge of the Empire and the threat/doom mechanic in 2d20 they refuse to use because it's "helping the GM and hurting them".
Ha! When I played Edge of the Empire, we ended up with exactly the same issue - a big pile of Light Side points that nobody was willing to touch because it shut down the GM from gaining dark side points. Likewise, I had one hell of a time getting them to narrate the special effects from the dice. They just wanted to know what numerical effect they had!
One thing that helped, and it was a process that I was still working on: First, I had them play a few games of Fiasco. Given that there is no GM and no stats, it got the idea of pure roleplaying into their brains. Second, when running other games, I implemented/tweaked the rules to include ways to push the narrative onto the players. Bennies (Savage Worlds), Advantage (5e), and... Fate Chips? Whatever the PF2 version is. Anyway, I reworked all of them to add options to allow the players to narratively add elements to the world/story. Running from the Sheriff? Play a bennie to declare that there is an unwatched horse on the hitching post at the end of the alley you're running down (and yeah - I ran a lot of Deadlands, too.)
Yeah we really use Bennies like FATE points too. In our Conan game my friend will often offer a Benny to a player when trying to encourage a bad decision
Or like you said, oh look there's an unattended horse, door, whatever right there
We do give out Bennies like candy in Savage Worlds. I have seen Shane (founder of Savage Worlds) on several videos say the same thing...having lots of Bennies encourages people to try things. I try to make sure I give Bennies out for good roleplay, using their Hindrances, making me laugh, etc
That seems to work as the players seem to use their Bennies (unless they get down to 1 or 2 in which case they're saved for Soaks)
Interesting. I've never played with a system that uses it and I can see how it could really set a tone for me vs them. It almost sounds more like something I'd expect playing specific board games - where it's one vs many. The Conan board game or Descent come to mind. During a pure role playing game though it just sounds...off (to me).
Well I think the Monolith Conan game and the Modiphius Conan game actually had a sourcebook in common, but yeah, I get how my players felt that way. Which is a shame because their Conan (and Star Trek and Dune and John Carter) books are very well put together).
I think newer players would have an easier time accepting it
If it helps any, the Star Wars Edge of the Empire game was designed by Fantasy Flight Games...who also made Descent
It works - if you have a group that's willing to buy into the idea behind the mechanic. It's sort of like Fate/PbtA - some of the most interesting things happen when you fail rolls. Like any good heist film, it's the bits that go wrong that make the rest more interesting.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:48 pm
It works - if you have a group that's willing to buy into the idea behind the mechanic. It's sort of like Fate/PbtA - some of the most interesting things happen when you fail rolls. Like any good heist film, it's the bits that go wrong that make the rest more interesting.
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:48 pm
It works - if you have a group that's willing to buy into the idea behind the mechanic. It's sort of like Fate/PbtA - some of the most interesting things happen when you fail rolls. Like any good heist film, it's the bits that go wrong that make the rest more interesting.
To circle back to what I'd commented on earlier in the week, I am going to proceed with an attempt at Dungeon Crawl Classics, mainly for the reason you mention here. So much of what happens (including character creation) is emergent based on lots of randomness and luck, and I'm hoping it will lead to much more memorable moments. I did also pick up the Pathfinder 2E starter set (what an amazing deal that is from a content perspective), but I think trying something new makes sense.
Still not sure what to make of what's happening with D&D.
I love Goodman Games. I wish my group would accept the funnel system and go with it. They just like being in control and not leaving things to chance.
I haven't been following the upcoming D&D edition enough to comment. My group can't seem to accept the storyteller systems like PbtA and FATE but Savage Worlds seems to be in their sweet spot between crunch and storyteller
I kickstarted the 7th(?) Printing of DCC and paid $25. Got the main book (what a massive book...I love it). Then they sent me a GM screen, 4 or 5 modules and some pencils. I had to buy some Zocchi dice
You can encourage folks to use the "inspirations" or whatever from the game more often by making them more temporary. Make them NOT roll over. Use it or lose it, start every session with 1, can earn more, but nothing rolls over to the next gaming session. No hoarding.
That's not bad, although I still think the bigger problem is scarcity. The fact that they're binary - you have one, or you have zero- and they're the emergency get-out-of-death card (for death saves) is what makes people afraid to spend it once they have it.
It's why I replaced the entire system with something a little more varied that wasn't binary (and yeah - there was no rollover.)
I read someone's house rule that when someone rolls a 1 during combat, someone else gets inspiration because they just saw one of their party screw up and are inspired to fight harder. I kind of like that idea.
I just had a character building session for a new 5E campaign using "Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk". The original Lost Mines of Phandelver from the original Starter Box Set is one of my favorite 5E modules ever done...I'm really looking forward to going back there.
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
The problem with anything involving penalizing a 1 is that it unbalances the classes. It's the same reason that fumble decks/tables have gone out of fashion.
A fast fighter or a dual wielding rogue may end up rolling a d20 four or five times per round. A mage may roll one once every few rounds (depending on their spell selection.) That means that a mage may get penalized once every couple of sessions, whereas a fast non-magic attacker will often get penalized every single combat.
