Octopus Overlords

Chaz wrote:I suspect we're about to find out if it's a thing or not.

Or at least, they're going to try and find out. I'm willing to bet there's a pretty widespread pushback from all corners if they try and implement an "arm the teachers" policy.

I mean, they can try to find out how much worse it makes things.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:35 pm It could be a good idea if and only if like air marshals they were well trained and supported.

air marshall != teacher

your analogy gets a 3 out of 10 for correct use. please spend some time with an analogy tutor in the future before attempting any further analogies.

hepcat wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:02 pm

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:35 pm It could be a good idea if and only if like air marshals they were well trained and supported.

air marshall != teacher

your analogy gets a 3 out of 10 for correct use. please spend some time with an analogy tutor in the future before attempting any further analogies.

It will be an absolute fulfilling career for teachers when the security marshals make more money then they do.

Unstable Man Plots To Bring Guns To Schools.

FAIRFAX, VA—According to sources, local man Wayne LaPierre, an individual with a long history of unstable and dangerous behavior, revealed a detailed plot this week to bring semiautomatic weapons into schools. The disturbed man has reportedly been carefully planning this plot for months and has published numerous ranting posts to his website in which he lays out, in explicit detail, his desire to bring numerous guns into school hallways and classrooms. While the crazed individual has, as of press time, not yet acted on his plan, sources confirmed he has every intention of doing so in the near future and will stop at nothing to see his plot fulfilled. Additional reports have suggested that the unstable man may have also been helped in his planning by a number of accomplices in the United States Congress.

El Guapo wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:08 pm Unstable Man Plots To Bring Guns To Schools.

I thought that was going to be a link to an Onion article about Trump.

wonderpug wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:09 pm

El Guapo wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:08 pm Unstable Man Plots To Bring Guns To Schools.

I thought that was going to be a link to an Onion article about Trump.

At first I believed that it could be turned into a story about Trump by simply changing the name of the subject of the article. However, I then realized that no story about a Trump policy initiative, satirical or otherwise, would contain words and phrases such as detailed or careful planning.

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:38 pm Introducing firearms into a crowd creates a whole new set of issues.

Not to the class of gun owners that can't seem to wait to be involved in a shoot out with bad guys. To them, that creates a whole new set of opportunities.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:50 pm Rip, like I said, it's nonsensical. Your assertions are simply incorrect. There is no reality in which, on the whole, arming teachers improves safety of the student population.

It's not a thing, trained or not, overseen or not, well-funded or not.

It's not a thing.

Tell that to all the high end private schools that many of the politicians send their kids to. They already have them. No mass shootings there.

Like it or not school security is going to be a thing and you are going to see more and more security personnel, some of them armed. Be they teachers or additional employees.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sc ... 3a9b4948d0

Your moving the goalpost again. We're discussing arming teachers. You're now trying to turn the conversation into one about hiring security personnel.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:53 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:50 pm Rip, like I said, it's nonsensical. Your assertions are simply incorrect. There is no reality in which, on the whole, arming teachers improves safety of the student population.

It's not a thing, trained or not, overseen or not, well-funded or not.

It's not a thing.

Tell that to all the high end private schools that many of the politicians send their kids to. They already have them. No mass shootings there.

I think your analysis is glossing over the many differences that don't make this a reasonable comparison. However, I'll also assume that was all about getting an 'elitism' dig in. You are just helping to run the usual modern day 'Conservative' playbook that says if you can't win on the substance then smear the other side.

hepcat wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:02 pm Your moving the goalpost again. We're discussing arming teachers. You're now trying to turn the conversation into one about hiring security personnel.

He is moving it for sure but the reason is to change the subject to how the elites want to take your guns away. How it isn't a threat they face... yadda yadda. It is bullshit. And it works most of the time.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:35 pm Sad to see you stereotype teachers that way.

It isn't stereotyping teachers. It is a sedentary job that stretches across age ranges from graduate to elderly. There are teachers who could compete in UFC, but not the 20% required for this plan. And even if they were, again - it doesn't account for human error. It doesn't account for what happens when the teacher who carries one gets shot and goes down. Does the gun vanish? Or does a student pick it up?

I've worked jobs where I carried a firearm. Several of them. Not once did the job (or posting) involve large crowds of people, even if I carried a gun and wore armor at the very same job when at a different post. There is a reason for that. Introducing a firearm into those situations creates more issues than it solves.

I have lived around guns most of my life. I have worked sales in a gun store. I have been both range and combat trained with pistol, rifle, and shotgun. I've been in scenarios where I have drawn my weapon and pointed it at another human being.

If I were to become a teacher, I absolutely would not feel safe being selected to carry in a school.

If someone hits you with a car and are legal to drive, you sue them and their insurance company right?

The NRA lobby and advocate to have no insurance or restrictions or licensing on legal fire arms, I think we should be able to sue shooters and the NRA with regard to shootings that involve legal gun ownership. Their tune might change if they became accountable for the laws they keep on and off the books.

*shrug*

hepcat wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:02 pm Your moving the goalpost again. We're discussing arming teachers. You're now trying to turn the conversation into one about hiring security personnel.

Two tools out of the same box. Armed teachers would become part of the security personnel. Believe it or not there are security personnel who can teach and vice versa. I've even heard rumors that there are military people who can teach.

Even teachers who aren't armed should be trained in responding to security events.

http://fastersaveslives.org/

There is plenty that can be done in these areas that shouldn't even be controversial. Best to do that while the discussions about what more can be done linger on.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:53 pm
Tell that to all the high end private schools that many of the politicians send their kids to. They already have them. No mass shootings there.

This is dumb. hiring multiple competent private body guards for every public school in existence is cost prohibitive, and likely to result in accidents just based on probability. It is, however, a better idea that building a wall around each school and/or country, so you've got that going for you. Although chances are it would be at least as expensive, if not more so.

Higher priority targets like the children of diplomats, politicians and rich people changes the calculus of the risk assessment and management, and warrants (to the rich parents) the additional costs involved. Who's going to pay for this level of protection for every child in America? You?

Worse, there are plenty of other highly guarded places in society that are regularly targeted with success. Clearly, guns are not enough, even well trained guns. I suppose you *might* scare off the completely rudderless who walk around with little to no forethought, but kids like the ones that did columbine will just plan a little more. How effective are armed guards after years of stagnation in which nothing happens, only to be attacked at some random time in the future? The assailants will just know to shoot the guards first, just like with banks.

Obviously for some situations, like military bases, weapons do increase the safety of the location, but the costs of having well trained, competent, aware guards (has to be more than one imo to even consider) at every public school has got to be insane. There has to be 100-200,000 public schools, no?

Let's try some random guesses.

edit: Guesses were way off. Schools ~ 100,000 and salary ~ $31,590. Approx. 3 billion a year on salaries alone for 1 guard at each school.

Schools: 150,000 (wild guess)
guard salary: 40,000 (tell me if this is high or low in your opinion).

1 guard per school is $6,000,000,000 a year, not counting the costs of training, administration and overhead. $6,000,000,000/year to provide exactly one guard at the school that gets attacked. 1 guard that will be bored, asleep or simply doing other things because after years of standing around, the mind wanders. 1 guard (that is almost certainly no longer paying attention) that you have to shoot first before you do exactly what you would do without the guard around.

It's a nice fantasy to turn schools into armed encampments that would need a military assault to breach, but it's not a viable solution for multiple reasons.

That said, if the American people want it and want to pay for it, go for it. It will certainly make most people less afraid, which as I said, is a good thing. Until it fails spectacularly to prevent a mass shooting multiple times that is.

disclosure: I have not attempted to calculate the yearly cost of turning all public schools into fort knox.

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:12 pmIt isn't stereotyping teachers. It is a sedentary job that stretches across age ranges from graduate to elderly. There are teachers who could compete in UFC, but not the 20% required for this plan. And even if they were, again - it doesn't account for human error. It doesn't account for what happens when the teacher who carries one gets shot and goes down. Does the gun vanish? Or does a student pick it up?

Yes, among many other things. Let's just assume for a moment that 20% of teachers are perfectly qualified for this service. Are they going to regularly train to maintain that qualification/expertise? If so, when? Who will pay for the training, and who will pay the teachers for that time? Can we also add funding for school supplies to this bill? Seems like it'd be a trivial cost in comparison, yet we can't get this done today.

Are those teachers interested in having this responsibility placed upon them? I've several friends who are teachers, and none of them want anything to do with being responsible for a firearm in class. And not because they're 'liberal elites' (a term which, by the way, is approaching Godwin levels of insta-own-goaling an argument). Folks generally get into teaching because they're fans of educating, not first-person shooters.

Introducing a firearm into those situations creates more issues than it solves.

Indeed. Now we'll assume that not only are 20% of teachers qualified, but they're adequately funded and interested in the firearm-in-class role, as well. How are those firearms adequately secured in such a way that there are no incidents where teachers go postal and shoot students with them, or that students get a hold of them and have an accident/incident? How does that level of security match up with also having the weapon readily available for use in a gunman-in-the-school situation?

I [am eminently qualified to operate a firearm].

If I were to become a teacher, I absolutely would not feel safe being selected to carry in a school.

No shit, dude. Interestingly, you are not the first or second person I've seen say something similar. It seems to me that those who possess above-average knowledge of firearms and their use--but do not have donors or paychecks requiring them to be for this idea--are fairly overwhelmingly against the idea.

Once more, with feeling, for Rip's benefit: It's not a thing. Making it a thing is--on its face--worsening the problem, on a significant level.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 pm Even teachers who aren't armed should be trained in responding to security events.

http://fastersaveslives.org/

There is plenty that can be done in these areas that shouldn't even be controversial. Best to do that while the discussions about what more can be done linger on.

I completely agree. Of course these are the same teachers that have to buy school supplies for their students out of their own pocket. I suppose you could make being "certified" in safety as part of the job requirements. Nurses in Ontario pay for a lot of their own certification renewals. Nurses can make pretty good money up here though. Not sure about teachers in West Virginia, for example.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:28 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:12 pmIt isn't stereotyping teachers. It is a sedentary job that stretches across age ranges from
If I were to become a teacher, I absolutely would not feel safe being selected to carry in a school.

No shit, dude. Interestingly, you are not the first or second person I've seen say something similar. It seems to me that those who possess above-average knowledge of firearms and their use--but do not have donors or paychecks requiring them to be for this idea--are fairly overwhelmingly against the idea.

Teacher friend stole this from I don't know where

This [idea] is so stupid. Students steal my things all the time. They don't care what it is. They steal money, credit cards, cell phones, pencils, pens, candy... They'll try to steal the guns.

PLUS! Not only do [conservative legislators] not want to pay for pencils and printer ink, now they want to take away the $250 tax deduction I get for buying my own things for my students.

I'm supposed to teach math, while feeding kids who are hungry, listening to the kid whose uncle was shot last night or whose dad is in jail and just needs to talk to someone, but Mom works until after they go to bed and they are in charge of taking care of the younger siblings.

I'm also expected to administer a practice test once a week to show that the kids are moving towards proficiency.

Now you want me to carry a gun and shoot the bad guys? You know who the bad guy is? He's a past student.

How do you expect me to love your kid this year, but shoot them next year when they come back angry with an AR-15. I can't. And I won't. This is a bad idea."

Hey, problems cost money. We either are willing to fix it or we ain't.

Not like all these gun banning/regulating things will be free. Let alone the time and money that will be wasted arguing about and fighting over whatever regulations are attempted or enacted.

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:27 pm Schools: 150,000 (wild guess)
guard salary: 40,000 (tell me if this is high or low in your opinion).

~100,000 public schools, 40k private schools and universities
Median pay $26,000, education guards are at $31,590.

How much are your kids with to you when it comes to paying armed guards? And remember when considering costs, what they make is not how much they cost to keep employed.

Also back in the 80s, we had two armed guards and two non armed guards during school hours and one 24/7 covering a campus of about a half square mile, three different large buildings for a student body of nearly 6000. I can't speak for smaller schools or to what they do now.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:37 pm Hey, problems cost money. We either are willing to fix it or we ain't.

Awesome. We're on the same page. Let's focus on fixing it, rather than spending a bunch of moneys on making the problem worse.

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:37 pm Hey, problems cost money. We either are willing to fix it or we ain't.

Ok, this might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. You have NEVER wanted to pay for anything ever, except the military. In fact you are against spending public money on all the other, much higher priority public problems where benefit/dollar is much, much, much higher than this.

This is the least honest thing you've ever said, because it implies that you are fine with the costs. You either have your priorities out of whack, or are lying. Neither makes me feel great about the solutions you suggest.

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:37 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:27 pm Schools: 150,000 (wild guess)
guard salary: 40,000 (tell me if this is high or low in your opinion).

~100,000 public schools, 40k private schools and universities
Median pay $26,000, education guards are at $31,590.

edit: Can't count. See later post for estimate.

this page seems to imply it's closer to 200,000, but I have no idea how accurate that is. Hilariously, that is the same page that you linked. Are you not counting all the elementary or middle schools? If not, why not?

So let's say 190,000 schools x 31,590/guard x 1 guard/school = $6,002,100,000. So still around 6 billion a year in guard salaries alone (as I and LM mentioned, the costs don't stop there) in order to have a single, lone guard standing between your kids and the next mass shooting. Hopefully there aren't 2 (or more) shooters, but that is probably rare even for mass shootings.

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:51 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:37 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:27 pm Schools: 150,000 (wild guess)
guard salary: 40,000 (tell me if this is high or low in your opinion).

~100,000 public schools, 40k private schools and universities
Median pay $26,000, education guards are at $31,590.

this page seems to imply it's closer to 200,000, but I have no idea how accurate that is. Hilariously, that is the same page that you linked. Are you not counting all the elementary or middle schools? If not, why not?

Subcategories:

98,271 = 67,034 + 24,053 + 6,205 + 979

I'll stand up and say that I'm less comfortable with having a TSA dropout with a gun guarding my children than I am relying on statistical probability of school shootings affecting them randomly.

Paingod wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:54 pm I'll stand up and say that I'm less comfortable with having a TSA dropout with a gun guarding my children than I am relying on statistical probability of school shootings affecting them randomly.

That depends on what district I am in. The safer the district the more comfortable I am that need to de-escalate a school bruhaha between two or more students won't involve building security physically involved who is either carrying and not drawing their firearm or drawing and not getting physically involved. Neither of which would make particularly comfortable.

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:52 pm
Subcategories:

98,271 = 67,034 + 24,053 + 6,205 + 979

Good call and obviously my bad.

98,000 x 31,590 = $3,095,820,000. So half my guess. Barely a drop in the bucket. Why not buy 2?

Rip wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 pm

hepcat wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:02 pm Your moving the goalpost again. We're discussing arming teachers. You're now trying to turn the conversation into one about hiring security personnel.

Two tools out of the same box. Armed teachers would become part of the security personnel.

Do you have any proof that the high end schools you're mentioning do, in fact, hire teachers with the explicit intent of arming them?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 1977360384

Let's see if there's any action behind it, or it just dies quietly behind the next Tweetstorm.

Looking for a reason to appluad when POTUS does something right. This could be one of those moments. I don't see it happening but

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:09 pm https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 1977360384

Let's see if there's any action behind it, or it just dies quietly behind the next Tweetstorm.

I doubt it, but we'll see. This also seems like the kind of situation where someone might be about to explain to Trump what he actually thinks about this issue.

pr0ner wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:01 pm https://www.twitter.com/FoxNews/status/ ... 9967646720

Gun rights are granted by God? Honestly, these people are no different than the Muslim radicals they scream and yell about. The NRA rhetoric is straight out of the extremist playbook. Islam has ISIS. The US has the NRA.

Just like the majority of normal people view the restrictions on gay marriage, abortions and civil rights as important milestones from a more barbaric time, later generations are going to see the lack of gun regulation and realize how ignorant, selfish and stupid we were. The rest of the civilized world has already moved past guns. We will too, but many, many more children will die before it happens.

Jag wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:16 pm

pr0ner wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:01 pm https://www.twitter.com/FoxNews/status/ ... 9967646720

Gun rights are granted by God? Honestly, these people are no different than the Muslim radicals they scream and yell about. The NRA rhetoric is straight out of the extremist playbook. Islam has ISIS. The US has the NRA.

Just like the majority of normal people view the restrictions on gay marriage, abortions and civil rights as important milestones from a more barbaric time, later generations are going to see the lack of gun regulation and realize how ignorant, selfish and stupid we were. The rest of the civilized world has already moved past guns. We will too, but many, many more children will die before it happens.

Maybe the quote is out of context, but to me the most bizarre part is the implication that God has granted rights specifically to Americans, separate from the rest of humanity.

El Guapo wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:20 pm Maybe the quote is out of context, but to me the most bizarre part is the implication that God has granted rights specifically to Americans, separate from the rest of humanity.

Lol, that was my thought too. Somehow God has singled out America to be the mass shooting capital of the world.

That sounds a lot more like the other guy's work rather than God's.

Paingod wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:54 pm I'll stand up and say that I'm less comfortable with having a TSA dropout with a gun guarding my children than I am relying on statistical probability of school shootings affecting them randomly.

Rational thought lives!

My problem with Trump's gun plans is that he's proven to be willing to say anything and everything if it's politically expedient. Whether or not he actually follows through with it is an entirely different ball game. For all I know, an NRA shill will sit down with him tonight, and tomorrow Trump will be tweeting that he never said he'd ban bump stocks or raise the age limit.

My gut feeling is that the best we're going to get out of this is a couple of token gestures to placate the pitchfork-wielding mob. But even if that's all we get, I'll consider it a success considering who controls the government.

YellowKing wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:56 pm My gut feeling is that the best we're going to get out of this is a couple of token gestures to placate the pitchfork-wielding mob. But even if that's all we get, I'll consider it a success considering who controls the government.

Definitely - that be a big concession from our overlords in the NRA!

CBS News

The nation's largest privately-owned bank says it will stop producing credit cards for the National Rifle Association in response to customer feedback.

The Nebraska-based First National Bank of Omaha announced on Twitter Thursday that it will not renew its contract to issue the group's NRA Visa Card.