Israel–United States relations and associated politics

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 56013
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Terrible, sad news. However, the State Department does have a "do not travel" level 4 alert on Lebanon. He had every right to travel there but the risks are known. He chose to stay and help, which is admirable but extremely dangerous.
Due to the increased volatility following airstrikes within Beirut and the volatile and unpredictable security situation throughout Lebanon, the U.S. Embassy urges U.S. citizens to depart Lebanon now while commercial options still remain available. At this time, commercial flights are available, but at reduced capacity. If the security situation worsens, commercial options to depart may become unavailable. Please check flight options at Beirut–Rafic Hariri International Airport. The U.S. Embassy may not be able to assist U.S. citizens who choose to remain in Lebanon.

If you choose to remain in Lebanon, be prepared to shelter in place should the situation deteriorate further. The U.S. Embassy strongly encourages U.S. citizens in Southern Lebanon, near the borders with Syria, and/or in refugee settlements to depart those areas immediately.

Do Not Travel to Lebanon due to crime, terrorism, civil unrest, kidnapping, unexploded landmines, and the risk of armed conflict. Some areas, especially near the borders, have increased risk. Read the entire Travel Advisory.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 14861
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Max Peck »

Given the operational tempo, I suspect that by the time you can publish an article, the phrase "latest raid" is no longer accurate. :coffee:
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 14861
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Max Peck »

Kraken wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:24 pm
hepcat wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2024 2:16 pm Sheesh, 3000? That's almost laughable in this day and age.
Maybe this will put a dent in their shipments to Russia.
Possibly, especially if the Israeli retaliation targets stockpiles and production facilities.

There is likely also a cost to Ukraine, though. According to some reports Israel made good use of Patriot batteries to intercept a lot of the Iranian missiles. Given any tension between whether to resupply Ukraine or Israel with Patriot missiles, Ukraine is going to lose out.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42010
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by El Guapo »



I enjoyed this. After the recent terror attack in Jaffa, Israel's Minister of National Security (who is a MAGA-type bigot and extremist) went to the site to demagogue against Israeli Arabs. One of the paramedics afterwards went on television afterwards and was not having it.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 28195
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Yeah, those were some really good words there.

One of the xhitter videos worth clicking.
User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 5649
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Where is the government of Lebanon? Why they let Hezbollah operate in their region? Why they let Israel bombed their country and not reacting?
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42010
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by El Guapo »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:16 pm Where is the government of Lebanon? Why they let Hezbollah operate in their region? Why they let Israel bombed their country and not reacting?
De facto Lebanon is effectively occupied by Syria and Iran, and Hezbollah is the military force that makes that so. There is a Lebanese government (and technically a Lebanese army) but they operate at the pleasure of Hezbollah (and Syria / Iran by extension). So Lebanon doesn't really have a voice about whether and how Hezbollah operates (or about anything else).
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84848
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Isgrimnur »

UN peacekeepers in Lebanon say Israel has fired on their bases deliberately
The UN peacekeeping mission in Lebanon said on Thursday that Israeli forces had deliberately fired on its positions, injuring two peacekeepers and bringing fresh accusations of violations of international law.
...
The alleged attacks brought expressions of outrage from UN member states who contribute troops to the UN interim force in Lebanon (Unifil), at a time Israel is already under scrutiny on multiple fronts for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity.
...
Unifil said an Israeli tank fired on an observation tower in the force’s headquarters in Naqoura just north of the Lebanese border, causing two Indonesian peacekeepers to fall off it.

“The injuries are fortunately, this time, not serious, but they remain in hospital,” a Unifil statement said, adding that deliberate attacks on UN peacekeepers was a “grave violation” of international law.

Unifil said Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers also fired at a UN observation post at Labbouneh a few hundred metres from the border, “hitting the entrance to the bunker where peacekeepers were sheltering, and damaging vehicles and a communications system”.

The Unifil statement made it clear that the peacekeepers thought the attacks on their positions were no accident, suggesting there had been premeditation.

“An IDF drone was observed flying inside the UN position up to the bunker entrance,” it said. “Yesterday, IDF soldiers deliberately fired at and disabled the position’s perimeter-monitoring cameras.”

Unifil also said Israeli forces had “deliberately fired” on a UN facility at a border point on the coast where peacekeepers hosted tripartite meetings with Israeli and Lebanese officers before the outbreak of the current conflict.

Unifil said any deliberate attack on peacekeepers was a “grave violation of international humanitarian law” and of security council resolution 1701.
...
The attacks on Unifil positions came two days after a standoff between Israeli forces and 30 Irish peacekeepers at a UN observation post on the border, after the IDF parked more than two dozen tanks and other armoured vehicles around the position last Saturday.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
Punisher
Posts: 4723
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Punisher »

Isreal seems to be fighting on multiple fronts. Now that Iran is in the mix will Isreal be over extended?
Do they have the manpower and armament to fight on all these fronts at the same time?
All yourLightning Bolts are Belong to Us
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 28195
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

I'm going to say, yes.
User avatar
Punisher
Posts: 4723
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Punisher »

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:06 am I'm going to say, yes.
yes they're overextended or yes they have the means to continue?
All yourLightning Bolts are Belong to Us
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 28195
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Punisher wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:11 am
Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:06 am I'm going to say, yes.
yes they're overextended or yes they have the means to continue?
Sorry, I was saying they have the means to continue, I believe.

I mean, they have nukes - for one thing (seriously doubt that will come into play, but it's there) - and more so - they have a modern and sophisticated airforce and army (their enemy does not)... and then they have the US in their corner on most of this, seemingly nearly unwavering support there.

If they get themselves overextended and look like they may actually be in danger of - not existing - well, the US would never let that happen, so they have that net sitting there.
User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 65684
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Daehawk »

I think Israel will finally give Iran the black eye and bloody lip its been needing for many decades.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 14861
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Max Peck »

The CBC put together a comparison of Israeli and Iranian military capability a few days ago. My guess is that Israel will dominate as long as they don't run out of bombs and missiles, and the US will spare no expense to replenish the stockpiles.

Israel vs. Iran: Who has the stronger military?
Israel has about 170,000 active military personnel and 465,000 reservists, according to estimates. That compares to Iran's 600,000 personnel, 350,000 reservists and 220,000 paramilitary forces.

And with a population of nearly 90 million, compared to Israel's 10 million, Iran has a significant advantage.

As for other factors, some reports give Iran an advantage in terms of numbers of tanks, artillery and armoured vehicles.

But decades of international sanctions have largely cut Iran off from the latest high-tech military equipment, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), another think-thank, in London.

Iran's conventional armed forces, although large by regional standards, "struggle with an increasingly obsolescent equipment inventory," the IISS said in a 2023 report.

Meanwhile, one distinct advantage Israel holds is its air force, considered one of the most advanced in the world.

The Iranian air force has 37,000 personnel, but has only a few dozen working strike aircraft, including Russian jets and aging U.S. models acquired before the Iranian revolution of 1979. Tehran has a squadron of nine F-4 and F-5 fighter jets, some F-7s and F-14s, plus one squadron of Russian-made Sukhoi-24 jets and some MiG-29s, IISS says.

Israel has an advanced, U.S.-supplied air force with hundreds of F-15, F-16 and F-35 multipurpose jet fighters.

"That is a major advantage, especially in the early stages of an Iran-Israel conflict. Iran is still using decades-old aircraft," said Shaikh.
Iran has the largest and most diverse missile arsenal in the Middle East, which includes thousands of ballistic and cruise missiles, according to a 2021 report.

But Israel has one of the most technologically advanced missile arsenals in the Middle East, it states.

"Iran might have a larger army or population to draw upon," Shaikh said. "But if a full war breaks out, a lot of the initial fighting will be through air and missile power. And that's where Israel holds strong advantages."

Ostovar says the impact of any Iranian missiles would be significant. But, he says, Iran cannot win a war by missiles alone.

Iran "can destroy stuff. It can kill people," he said. "But it can't win."

Israel, as well, wouldn't be able to defeat Iran just through missile attacks, Ostovar says, but it could inflict much more damage.

Israel can "get right up close to Iran with its F-35s and launch precision missiles that really will hit their targets," he said.
And, of course, Israel has much better air defense systems than Iran.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 28195
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

And who resupplies Iran?
User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 65684
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Daehawk »

I think the thing that sets these two apart is Israel's air force. It has bombed targets in Iran before this. Id suspect Israel to hit Iran's power grid first by air then go from there. Least I would.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42010
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by El Guapo »

Is there anything new with Iran and Israel since the Iranian missile attack?
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 14861
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Max Peck »

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 11:08 am And who resupplies Iran?
Iran, I suppose, if they've buried the munitions factories deep enough. I don't know if they are on good enough terms with China or North Korea to count on getting any help. Russia clearly has nothing to spare and would be hurting even more if their Iranian missile/drone suppliers suddenly dry up. Or blow up.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 14861
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Max Peck »

El Guapo wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 11:50 am Is there anything new with Iran and Israel since the Iranian missile attack?
I haven't seen anything being reported aside from rhetoric. For the time being Israel seems to be focused on grinding away at Hezbollah and pretty much everything else in southern Lebanon.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 46008
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Blackhawk »

If Israel keeps targeting UN outposts and facilities, they're going to find things getting a lot more complicated.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 28195
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Max Peck wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:25 pm
Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 11:08 am And who resupplies Iran?
Iran, I suppose, if they've buried the munitions factories deep enough. I don't know if they are on good enough terms with China or North Korea to count on getting any help. Russia clearly has nothing to spare and would be hurting even more if their Iranian missile/drone suppliers suddenly dry up. Or blow up.
Yeah, I wasn't aware they were so independent. I assumed their supply would be taxed by their allies also trying to keep Russia flush.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 14861
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Max Peck »

Blackhawk wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:43 pm If Israel keeps targeting UN outposts and facilities, they're going to find things getting a lot more complicated.
I'm not really sure what to make of the attacks on UN outposts. If Netanyahu were simply a cartoon villain, it might be a peevish response to the UN General Assembly resolution demanding an end to the occupation of the Palestinian territories. More pragmatically, it might be an attempt to keep the UN observers bottled up in their compounds so that there aren't as many independent witnesses to what is happening in southern Lebanon.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 46008
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Blackhawk »

Given that they seem to be focusing on lightning, cameras, and observation towers, that's my thought as well.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42010
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by El Guapo »

Max Peck wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:21 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:43 pm If Israel keeps targeting UN outposts and facilities, they're going to find things getting a lot more complicated.
I'm not really sure what to make of the attacks on UN outposts. If Netanyahu were simply a cartoon villain, it might be a peevish response to the UN General Assembly resolution demanding an end to the occupation of the Palestinian territories. More pragmatically, it might be an attempt to keep the UN observers bottled up in their compounds so that there aren't as many independent witnesses to what is happening in southern Lebanon.
The IDF explanation is that their soldiers fired on a threat (presumably Hezbollah) near the UN base.. That's from a Times of Israel live blog so I should probably just quote it:
The Israel Defense Forces say that its forces fired at a threat near a UN peacekeeping mission position in southern Lebanon, and acknowledged that a “hit” was responsible for wounding two people, after an initial examination of the incident.

Israeli “soldiers operating in southern Lebanon identified an immediate threat against them. The soldiers responded with fire toward the threat. An initial examination indicates that during the incident, a hit was identified on a UNIFIL post, located approximately 50 meters (yards) from the source of the threat, resulting in the injury of two UNIFIL personnel,” the statement says.

It came after the UN mission said two of its peacekeepers were injured after explosions close to an observation tower at its Naqura headquarters.

It was the second incident of its kind reported by UNIFIL in two days after two other Blue Helmets were injured yesterday.

Hours before Friday’s incident, “the IDF instructed UNIFIL personnel to enter into protected spaces and remain there. This instruction was in place at the time of the incident,” the military adds.

The statement came shortly after the military said it was “conducting a thorough review” to determine details of attacks on UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon, after the four mission members were injured.

“The IDF expresses deep concern over incidents of this kind and is currently conducting a thorough review at the highest levels of command to determine the details,” the military said.

Troops entered southern Lebanon to push Hezbollah terrorist forces away from the border where they have been firing missiles and rockets into Israel for more than a year, and to allow evacuated Israeli residents to safely return to their homes in northern Israel.
The idea that they fired intentionally at UN peacekeepers doesn't seem super plausible to me at first instance. Mainly because it's hard to see how firing at UN peacekeepers would *reduce* the amount of international scrutiny of Israel's campaign.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
TheMix
Posts: 11288
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:19 pm
Location: Broomfield, Colorado

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by TheMix »

And I assume this "threat" also was disguising itself as small, stationary security cameras? Boy, I hate it when they do that.

If it was the single incident of the tower being hit, maybe. But the other stuff described? That seems to stretch credulity.

Black Lives Matter

Isgrimnur - Facebook makes you hate your friends and family. LinkedIn makes you hate you co-workers. NextDoor makes you hate your neighbors.
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 14861
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Max Peck »

Obviously, Hezbollah was hiding in the UN bunker. :coffee:
UNIFIL said that on Thursday morning "two peacekeepers were injured after an IDF Merkava tank fired its weapon toward an observation tower at UNIFIL's headquarters in Naqoura, directly hitting it and causing them to fall".

It said their injuries are not serious, but they remain in hospital.

"IDF soldiers also fired on UN position (UNP) 1-31 in Labbouneh, hitting the entrance to the bunker where peacekeepers were sheltering, and damaging vehicles and a communications system," UNIFIL said.

"An IDF drone was observed flying inside the UN position up to the bunker entrance."
And of course, every hospital is a Hezbollah base of some sort.
At least four hospitals in Lebanon announced on Friday that they were suspending work because of Israeli strikes, while a Hezbollah-affiliated health organisation said that 11 paramedics had been killed in the past 24 hours.

The four closures capped two weeks of Israeli strikes on hospitals and healthcare workers in Lebanon that have shuttered at least 37 facilities and killed dozens of medical staff, according to the World Health Organisation.

Late on Friday night, the Israeli army issued a statement alleging that Hezbollah was using medical vehicles to transport fighters and weapons, warning that it would strike any vehicle it suspected of being used for military purposes.

Hospital staff in southern Lebanon told the BBC that health facilities treating wounded civilians had been hit with direct Israeli strikes. The BBC has approached the IDF for comment.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
TheMix
Posts: 11288
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:19 pm
Location: Broomfield, Colorado

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by TheMix »

I was informed by my brother that the UN and reporters are working as an Uber service for terrorists. And that the Israelis have told them to stop. So they were perfectly justified in shooting at the convoys. :doh:

Clearly this is just more of the same...

Black Lives Matter

Isgrimnur - Facebook makes you hate your friends and family. LinkedIn makes you hate you co-workers. NextDoor makes you hate your neighbors.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 28195
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

I'm honestly saddened by how much support (all of it, from what I hear from my 2 kids (14,17) - and we live in an area with a large Jewish community) Israel has lost in the younger generation.
User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 24192
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Pyperkub »

Unagi wrote:I'm honestly saddened by how much support (all of it, from what I hear from my 2 kids (14,17) - and we live in an area with a large Jewish community) Israel has lost in the younger generation.
All they've known their entire lives is Bibi's bullshit is the reason.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 28195
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Unagi »

Pyperkub wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2024 2:59 pm
Unagi wrote:I'm honestly saddened by how much support (all of it, from what I hear from my 2 kids (14,17) - and we live in an area with a large Jewish community) Israel has lost in the younger generation.
All they've known their entire lives is Bibi's bullshit is the reason.
Yeah, the reason is not remotely lost on me.
User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 5649
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

I think also more young people know the real history about Israel and the suffering of Palestinians. It is not just the current government of Israel.
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 54065
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

The “real history”? Would that include the Holocaust? The Six Day War? The Munich Olympics massacre?
Last edited by hepcat on Sat Oct 12, 2024 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Master of his domain.
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 84848
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Isgrimnur »

:pop:
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 54065
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

I may not like Bibi or what he’s doing with the Israeli military, but I also don’t think the fire started on its own.
Master of his domain.
User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 5649
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

hepcat wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2024 7:45 pm The “real history”? Would that include the Holocaust? The Six Day War? The Munich Olympics massacre?
Yes. But you know that Palestinians were not responsible for the holocaust, right?

As for the The Six Day War, that was in 1967, long after the start of the suffering of Palestinians because of Israel. The Munich Olympics massacre? Those are terrorist attack at 1972. Do you think Palestinians as a whole have to pay for that?
Last edited by Victoria Raverna on Sat Oct 12, 2024 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 46008
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Blackhawk »

Oh dear.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 54065
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by hepcat »

Victoria Raverna wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2024 8:02 pm
hepcat wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2024 7:45 pm The “real history”? Would that include the Holocaust? The Six Day War? The Munich Olympics massacre?
Yes. But you know that Palestinians are not responsible for the holocaust, right?

As for the The Six Day War, that was in 1967, long after the start of the suffering of Palestinians because of Israel. The Munich Olympics massacre? Those are terrorist attack at 1972. Do you think Palestinians as a whole have to pay for that?
As long as you acknowledge that the “real history” of Palestinians isn’t just one of completely peaceful saints who have never done anything wrong either.

The way you worded your post sounded suspiciously like someone trying to hand wave away any history that doesn’t support a personal bias that Israel shouldn’t exist and is evil.
Master of his domain.
User avatar
Victoria Raverna
Posts: 5649
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:23 am
Location: Jakarta

Re: Israel–United States relations and associated politics

Post by Victoria Raverna »

hepcat wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2024 8:14 pm
Victoria Raverna wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2024 8:02 pm
hepcat wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2024 7:45 pm The “real history”? Would that include the Holocaust? The Six Day War? The Munich Olympics massacre?
Yes. But you know that Palestinians are not responsible for the holocaust, right?

As for the The Six Day War, that was in 1967, long after the start of the suffering of Palestinians because of Israel. The Munich Olympics massacre? Those are terrorist attack at 1972. Do you think Palestinians as a whole have to pay for that?
As long as you acknowledge that the “real history” of Palestinians isn’t just one of completely peaceful saints who have never done anything wrong either.

The way you worded your post sounded suspiciously like someone trying to hand wave away any history that doesn’t support a personal bias that Israel shouldn’t exist and is evil.
I understand some Jewish people think they need to establish a state to be safe, but it is not fair to the existing people who lived in that land. Palestinians are real people, they lived there before modern Israel existed. After Israel, a lot of them lost their home and land. Having to suffer through holocaust as a people doesn't give anyone the right to cause suffering to others especially to those that had nothing to do with the holocaust.
Post Reply