Israel–United States relations and associated politics

[Kurth]

I've seen the photos of the body. It certainly looks like him - same structure, same mole, expensive watch.

CNN is reporting that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar may have been killed by Israel.

From what's being reported, the suggestion is that the IDF encountered Sinwar and 2 other militants in Gaza on a routine patrol, not any planned or directed operation. That seems unlikely to me. This guy was the leader of Hamas and the architect of October 7, and he's just out on the streets of Gaza walking around with 2 of his Hamas pals? Doesn't really compute.

From what I'm reading, it may not have been planned, but it wasn't routine - they were investigating an area where they believed senior Hamas leadership was at, and happened to encounter him.

The NYT seems to suggest otherwise:

For over a year, Israel’s security establishment, backed by the United States, dedicated vast resources and gathered mounds of intelligences in its hunt for Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader who was an architect of the Oct. 7 attacks.

But in the end, a unit of trainee squad commanders unexpectedly encountered Mr. Sinwar while on an operation in southern Gaza, according to four Israeli defense officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

The unit was on patrol in southern Gaza on Wednesday when the Israeli soldiers came upon a small group of fighters, the officials said. The soldiers — backed by drones — engaged in a firefight, and three Palestinian militants were killed.

During the battle, Israeli fire brought down part of a building where the militants had taken cover, two officials said. As the dust cleared and they began searching the building, the Israeli soldiers noticed that one of the bodies bore a shocking resemblance to the Hamas leader, the three officials said.

[Blackhawk]

Interesting. That's early news for you - multiple sources with contradictory reports.

Whoever it was, they're likely to end up waving to crowds.

[Max Peck]

The NYT seems to suggest otherwise:

Mr. Sinwar

God forbid that the NYT be less than respectful toward a dead terrorist.

[Kraken]

The NYT seems to suggest otherwise:

Mr. Sinwar

God forbid that the NYT be less than respectful toward a dead terrorist.

Their style is to use courtesy titles for everyone. In a story about Meat Loaf, they called him Mr. Loaf.

[Max Peck]

I presumed that was the case, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Kurth]

I presumed that was the case, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Man, I'll take that over the Trump "he died like a dog" approach every single time!

[Unagi]

I presumed that was the case, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Man, I'll take that over the Trump "he died like a dog" approach every single time!

If ever a statement expressed a complete unlove for dogs, it would be that.

[Blackhawk]

When it comes to news sites, I prefer that they simply report and not judge who does and does not deserve respect (even when it's obvious.)

[Kurth]

It’s been widely reported that Israel has settled on its list of targets in its planned retaliation against Iran for the Iranian ballistic missile attack a few weeks back. It seems like the Israeli counter-attack will happen soon. I don’t think the fact that the IDF took out Sinwar changes that calculus at all. Israel is going to hit Iran, and I think they are going to hit Iran much harder than the U.S. would like.

The first time this happened, when Iran attacked Israel in response to the IDF’s attack on an Iranian facility in Syria, the Israeli response was notably muted and clearly designed to not escalate the situation.

And that played well in Iran, with the Iranians being able to trumpet a narrative that Israel’s attack was an ineffectual nothingburger.

More recently, Iranian state media was quick to downplay Israel’s limited airstrike in April that targeted the S-400 air defense system positioned near the Natanz nuclear site. The Saudi Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper claimed on October 12 that Tehran had sent an indirect message to Israel stating that it “shrugs off a limited Israeli strike.”

The back and forth between US and Israeli officials and the statements coming from Jerusalem suggest that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s war cabinet is pushing for a stronger response to that of April’s. Israel’s public messaging towards Iranians indicates that Jerusalem is preparing an attack with goals beyond weakening the Islamic Republic’s military capabilities, one that could further undermine the regime’s standing among ordinary Iranians. In a three-minute video posted on social media, Netanyahu expressed solidarity with the Iranian people on September 30: “When Iran is finally free, and that moment will come a lot sooner than people think, everything will be different.”

I don’t think the upcoming Israeli attack on Iran is going to be something Iran will be able to convincingly downplay. I think Israel is looking past the conflict with Hamas/Hezbollah and aiming to change the board, significantly reducing Iran’s ability to stand up and support these terrorist militia proxies it calls its “axis of resistance.”

[Max Peck]

Palestinians say drone footage shows Sinwar's 'heroic' final moments in Gaza.

For one Gazan father, Yahya Sinwar's death in battle trying to beat back a drone with a stick was "how heroes die," while for others it was an example for future generations even as some lamented the ruinous cost of the war he sparked with Israel.

Sinwar, the architect of Hamas's deadly Oct. 7, 2023 attack on Israel that triggered the conflict in Gaza, was killed on Wednesday in a gunfight with Israeli forces after a year-long manhunt, and his death was announced on Thursday.

Israeli media described him as dying "like a Gaza dog" and many Western nations said his death may have removed a key hurdle to reaching a ceasefire.

But the video of him masked and mortally wounded in a shell-smashed apartment trying to hurl a stick at the Israel Defence Forces drone filming him inspired pride among Palestinians.

"He died wearing a military vest, fighting with a rifle and grenades, and when he was wounded and was bleeding, he fought with a stick. This is how heroes die," said Adel Rajab, 60, a father of two in Gaza.

"I have watched the video 30 times since last night, there is no better way to die," said Ali, a 30-year-old taxi driver in Gaza.

"I will make this video a daily duty to watch for my sons, and my grandsons in the future," said the father of two.

If he wasn't seen as a martyr before, it appears that releasing video of his death guaranteed that he'll seen as one now.

On the plus side, no "Mr. Sinwar" from the CBC (although it seems there is some "he died like a dog" reporting out there after all).

[Kurth]

Great. Those idiots can continue to enjoy an Israeli boot on their neck and guarantee the same for future generations of Gazans then. Such a waste.

[stessier]

Great. Those idiots can continue to enjoy an Israeli boot on their neck and guarantee the same for future generations of Gazans then. Such a waste.

Do you not also see that Israel will continue to enjoy living in fear of terror attacks and guarantee the same for future generations?

[Blackhawk]

Something, something big, endless circle.

[Kurth]

Great. Those idiots can continue to enjoy an Israeli boot on their neck and guarantee the same for future generations of Gazans then. Such a waste.

Do you not also see that Israel will continue to enjoy living in fear of terror attacks and guarantee the same for future generations?

Of course. Hence, the “such a waste” comment. But, from a quality of life perspective, would you rather be an Israeli or a Gazan right now? The people of Gaza were living a shit existence under Hamas before Sinwar and his band of jihadis decided to attack Israel on October 7. After that attack? Those people are barely hanging on. I think we can all be pretty certain that if they continue to hitch their wagon to Hamas, their lives will not improve. That’s bad for Israelis, too, as you point out, but it’s so much worse for Gazans

That Sinwar should be held up as a hero by the long suffering people of Gaza or that those same people would continue to support Hamas is a nihilistic tragedy.

But some Gazans have it right:

Other Gazans welcomed Mr. Sinwar’s death, blaming him for the hunger, unemployment and homelessness the conflict had caused.

“He humiliated us, started the war, scattered us and made us displaced, without water, food or money,” said a 22-year-old named Mohammed, who has been repeatedly displaced and asked that his last name not be used for fear of reprisals from Hamas.

“He is the one who made Israel do this,” Mohammed said, calling Mr. Sinwar’s death “the best day of my life.”

I only hope the death of Sinwar and the weakening of Hamas will create some room for those voices to speak out. It’s really the only chance these people have.

[Isgrimnur]

Hezbollah drone hits Netanyahu’s house

Netanyahu's spokesperson confirmed his private residence was targeted on Saturday morning local time, adding: "The prime minister and his wife were not at the residence at the time of the attack and there were no casualties."

Three drones were launched from Lebanon and crossed into Israeli airspace.

Israeli officials say two were intercepted by Israeli attack helicopters but the third eluded them.

[LawBeefaroni]

Hezbollah drone hits Netanyahu’s house

Netanyahu's spokesperson confirmed his private residence was targeted on Saturday morning local time, adding: "The prime minister and his wife were not at the residence at the time of the attack and there were no casualties."

Three drones were launched from Lebanon and crossed into Israeli airspace.

Israeli officials say two were intercepted by Israeli attack helicopters but the third eluded them.

FWIW, it was a vacation home, not his primary residence.

[Dogstar]

I only hope the death of Sinwar and the weakening of Hamas will create some room for those voices to speak out. It’s really the only chance these people have.

They definitely need the Netanyahu administration to end too to have a chance. As long as he’s there with the far right elements of his cabinet, even moderate/peaceful Palestinian voices are going to struggle to deliver peace/progress.

[Holman]

I only hope the death of Sinwar and the weakening of Hamas will create some room for those voices to speak out. It’s really the only chance these people have.

They definitely need the Netanyahu administration to end too to have a chance. As long as he’s there with the far right elements of his cabinet, even moderate/peaceful Palestinian voices are going to struggle to deliver peace/progress.

Netanyahu needs the war to continue in order to evade prosecution for his well-established corruption. He also needs Trump to be re-elected in order to ensure that his style of rule retains American support. There's no way he ends the fighting prior to establishing some kind of personal immunity to prosecution.

He'll also make sure that no outreach occurs to more moderate elements in Lebanon or Gaza. Such elements are a bigger threat to his regime than Hamas or Hezbollah.

[Max Peck]

AP: US investigating unauthorized release of classified documents on Israel attack plans

The U.S. is investigating an unauthorized release of classified documents that assess Israel’s plans to attack Iran, three U.S. officials told The Associated Press. A fourth U.S. official said the documents appear to be legitimate.

The documents are attributed to the U.S. Geospatial Intelligence Agency and National Security Agency and note that Israel continues to move military assets in place to conduct a military strike in response to Iran’s blistering ballistic missile attack on Oct. 1. They were sharable within the “Five Eyes,” which are the U.S., Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

The documents, which are marked top secret, were posted online to Telegram and first reported by CNN and Axios. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

The investigation is also examining how the documents were obtained — including whether it was an intentional leak by a member of the U.S. intelligence community or obtained by another method, like a hack — and whether any other intelligence information was compromised, one of the officials said. As part of that investigation, officials are working to determine who had access to the documents before they were posted, the official said.

The documents emerged as the U.S. has urged Israel to take advantage of its elimination of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar and press for a ceasefire in Gaza, and has likewise urgently cautioned Israel not to further expand military operations in the north in Lebanon and risk a wider regional war. However, Israel’s leadership has repeatedly stressed it will not let Iran’s missile attack go unanswered.

In a statement, the Pentagon said it was aware of the reports of the documents but did not have further comment.

Axios: Pro-Iranian account leaks alleged U.S. intel on Israel's attack plans

A Telegram channel by the name "Middle East Spectator" claimed on Friday that it had received documents from a source in the U.S. intelligence community about Israel's preparations for an attack on Iran.

• The Telegram channel routinely publishes pro-Iranian content, and the profile of the X account affiliated with the channel says it is located in Iran.
• The documents include an alleged Visual Intelligence report by the Department of Defense National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) distributed inside the U.S. intelligence community earlier this week.
• The authenticity of the documents has not been independently verified by Axios.

[Anonymous Bosch]

AP: US investigating unauthorized release of classified documents on Israel attack plans

The U.S. is investigating an unauthorized release of classified documents that assess Israel’s plans to attack Iran, three U.S. officials told The Associated Press. A fourth U.S. official said the documents appear to be legitimate.

The documents are attributed to the U.S. Geospatial Intelligence Agency and National Security Agency and note that Israel continues to move military assets in place to conduct a military strike in response to Iran’s blistering ballistic missile attack on Oct. 1. They were sharable within the “Five Eyes,” which are the U.S., Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

The documents, which are marked top secret, were posted online to Telegram and first reported by CNN and Axios. The officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

The investigation is also examining how the documents were obtained — including whether it was an intentional leak by a member of the U.S. intelligence community or obtained by another method, like a hack — and whether any other intelligence information was compromised, one of the officials said. As part of that investigation, officials are working to determine who had access to the documents before they were posted, the official said.

The documents emerged as the U.S. has urged Israel to take advantage of its elimination of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar and press for a ceasefire in Gaza, and has likewise urgently cautioned Israel not to further expand military operations in the north in Lebanon and risk a wider regional war. However, Israel’s leadership has repeatedly stressed it will not let Iran’s missile attack go unanswered.

In a statement, the Pentagon said it was aware of the reports of the documents but did not have further comment.

Axios: Pro-Iranian account leaks alleged U.S. intel on Israel's attack plans

A Telegram channel by the name "Middle East Spectator" claimed on Friday that it had received documents from a source in the U.S. intelligence community about Israel's preparations for an attack on Iran.

• The Telegram channel routinely publishes pro-Iranian content, and the profile of the X account affiliated with the channel says it is located in Iran.
• The documents include an alleged Visual Intelligence report by the Department of Defense National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) distributed inside the U.S. intelligence community earlier this week.
• The authenticity of the documents has not been independently verified by Axios.

OSINTdefender
And we wonder why Israel doesn’t want to share Information about the Strike with us.

OSINTdefender
An Investigation is ongoing by the U.S. Department of Defense and FBI to determine the Source of several Top Secret Documents related to the Israeli Retaliatory Strike against Iran, that were recently Leaked, appearing on Telegram Channels linked to the Iranian-Backed Militias as well as the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC). According to a Source, it is believed the Documents were likely to have been Leaked Online by a Member of the U.S. Military; similar to the Leak of several Documents on the War in Ukraine which occurred in April of 2023, which was linked to a Airman in the Massachusetts Air National Guard.

[LordMortis]

Thank you for not making me not ignoring your twitter link by not clicking on it. The extra effort is appreciated.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Thank you for not making me not ignoring your twitter link by not clicking on it. The extra effort is appreciated.

[Unagi]

The news on the recent bombing of the boy's school (being used as a shelter by mothers, daughters, sons - and yes - there were probably Hamas in there too), is just horrific. As if anything even can light the radar up any more.

I'm so fucking sick of this shit. And I'm so fucking sick of hearing the Israeli's say "Oh, but they are using them as human shields".

It's like they have no option but to hack through that big shield made of living babies. WTF. So fucking sick. Enough of this justification for slaughter. FUCK!

[Unagi]

<deep breath>

[Isgrimnur]

[Unagi]

The image of a Hammas terrorist, as seen through the eyes of the IDF.

[Blackhawk]

WTF. So fucking sick. Enough of this justification for slaughter. FUCK!

I gave up on trying to see sense in a war of endless hatred and awfulness on every side. There's no solution that I can see. The best anyone can come up with is a return to the status quo that will just lead to the same result again in a few years. And even that isn't acceptable to anyone involved - Israel won't stop until their enemies are dead, and their enemies won't stop until Israel is a crater. It's an endless cycle that carries no benefit to anyone involved, save for those who pull the strings without any direct risk.

I've argued. The world has argued. Short of the UN imposing martial law (not a serious suggestion), the region is going to burn itself to the ground.

I just wish we'd stop helping them do it.

[Pyperkub]

WTF. So fucking sick. Enough of this justification for slaughter. FUCK!

I gave up on trying to see sense in a war of endless hatred and awfulness on every side. There's no solution that I can see. The best anyone can come up with is a return to the status quo that will just lead to the same result again in a few years. And even that isn't acceptable to anyone involved - Israel won't stop until their enemies are dead, and their enemies won't stop until Israel is a crater. It's an endless cycle that carries no benefit to anyone involved, save for those who pull the strings without any direct risk.

I've argued. The world has argued. Short of the UN imposing martial law (not a serious suggestion), the region is going to burn itself to the ground.

I just wish we'd stop helping them do it.

I do think that a large chunk of Israelis and Palestinians don't want this, but the people they have placed in power (Bibi/Likud and Hamas/Hezbollah) are the ones who are dead set on this awfulness. But as long as those assholes are in power, yeah, you're correct. And quite frankly, I don't think the US has much leverage now over the Bibi/Likud side, no matter how much people think Biden and Harris can do something - they can't, not with the possibility of Trump changing everything in a matter of months.

However, should Harris win? THEN there's leverage to do so. Should Trump win? The War will escalate, and Trumpists will be chucking Palestinian supporters in the US into the concentration camps, including a large chunk of Palestinian Americans.

[El Guapo]

WTF. So fucking sick. Enough of this justification for slaughter. FUCK!

I gave up on trying to see sense in a war of endless hatred and awfulness on every side. There's no solution that I can see. The best anyone can come up with is a return to the status quo that will just lead to the same result again in a few years. And even that isn't acceptable to anyone involved - Israel won't stop until their enemies are dead, and their enemies won't stop until Israel is a crater. It's an endless cycle that carries no benefit to anyone involved, save for those who pull the strings without any direct risk.

I've argued. The world has argued. Short of the UN imposing martial law (not a serious suggestion), the region is going to burn itself to the ground.

I just wish we'd stop helping them do it.

I do think that a large chunk of Israelis and Palestinians don't want this, but the people they have placed in power (Bibi/Likud and Hamas/Hezbollah) are the ones who are dead set on this awfulness. But as long as those assholes are in power, yeah, you're correct. And quite frankly, I don't think the US has much leverage now over the Bibi/Likud side, no matter how much people think Biden and Harris can do something - they can't, not with the possibility of Trump changing everything in a matter of months.

However, should Harris win? THEN there's leverage to do so. Should Trump win? The War will escalate, and Trumpists will be chucking Palestinian supporters in the US into the concentration camps, including a large chunk of Palestinian Americans.

One irony of sorts is that the truly awful people in Netanyahu's coalition (the far right parties that Netanyahu relies on) actively want U.S. aid to Israel to end, because they view U.S. influence as holding Israel back from what it 'needs' to do (e.g., mass ethnic cleansing and the like).

[Pyperkub]

IMHO, that also puts Israel using nukes on the table, so it's very delicate.

[El Guapo]

IMHO, that also puts Israel using nukes on the table, so it's very delicate.

The chances of Israel using nukes is essentially zero since it's hard to see any upside to them for that. The only scenarios where that could happen are: (1) someone fires nukes at Israel (duh); or (2) Israel is overrun by conventional military forces (very unlikely now, not impossible in the fulness of time).

[Kurth]

WTF. So fucking sick. Enough of this justification for slaughter. FUCK!

Israel won't stop until their enemies are dead, and their enemies won't stop until Israel is a crater. It's an endless cycle that carries no benefit to anyone involved, save for those who pull the strings without any direct risk.

I feel like it’s worth pointing out that this is NOT Israel’s policy, at least, not unless you are using enemies to narrowly refer to Hamas leadership. Israel is surrounded by enemies. Israel has no delusion that it can wipe those enemies out. Israel’s policy is to use force to ensure security for the people of Israel within the borders of Israel. Granted, there are huge questions about where those borders should extend when it comes to Gaza and the West Bank, but Israeli policy has never, ever been to use force until its enemies are dead.

Contrast that with the second part of your statement: “Their enemies won’t stop until Israel is a crater.” This is, in fact, the official policy of many of Israel’s enemies. It’s in the Hamas charter, and we know where Hezbollah and Iran stand on Israel’s right to exist.

I don’t offer this up to justify or excuse any particular Israeli actions in the current war. But it’s why I will always push back on any arguments that appear to claim a moral equivalence between Israel and its enemies.

[Blackhawk]

It wasn't meant to reflect their policy, but their actions and apparent attitude.

[Victoria Raverna]

BTW, even Hamas changed their charter so officially they're no longer want to totally destroy Israel. So both side say that they're not seeking total elimination of the other side.

[hepcat]

Can you point out the official change in their charter that specifically reads that they don’t want the destruction of Israel? I see an attempt to distinguish between Jews and Israel in 2017 after they realized that shouting “death to all Jews” all the time was not winning them a lot of international support. But nothing really repudiated the old charter as a whole, it seems.

The revised charter did not formally repudiate or revoke the previous one, with Hamas co-founder Mahmoud al-Zahar saying that it is not a substitute for its founding charter.

Hamas is a terrorist group. Just because Israel is going too far doesn’t mean Hamas is suddenly innocent of decades of murder and racism. I still believe they need to go before peace can be achieved. Even you yourself has said that Palestinians are being held hostage by them.

[Victoria Raverna]

Can you point out the official change in their charter that specifically reads that they don’t want the destruction of Israel? I see an attempt to distinguish between Jews and Israel in 2017 after they realized that shouting “death to all Jews” all the time was not winning them a lot of international support. But nothing really repudiated the old charter as a whole, it seems.

The revised charter did not formally repudiate or revoke the previous one, with Hamas co-founder Mahmoud al-Zahar saying that it is not a substitute for its founding charter.

Hamas is a terrorist group. Just because Israel is going too far doesn’t mean Hamas is suddenly innocent of decades of murder and racism.

Okay. So maybe I'm wrong about that. As for Hamas being terrorist group, that is obvious. I don't think anyone here doesn't think they're terrorists. In this thread, I repeatedly said that Israel which is not supposed to be a terrorist group should act better than Hamas. I found it is funny that people are defending Israel by comparing to Hamas which is a terrorist organization and say that Israel is better. I think if someone compare US to a terrorist group, it'll be insulting to US.

[Isgrimnur]

Wilson Center

In 2017, a revised Hamas manifesto included three departures from the 1988 charter, former U.S. diplomat Aaron David Miller told The Islamists. ... Second, it attempted to distinguish between Jews or Judaism and modern Zionism. Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews. The updated platform also lacked some of the anti-Semitic language of the 1988 charter.

[Blackhawk]

I found it is funny that people are defending Israel by comparing to Hamas which is a terrorist organization and say that Israel is better. I think if someone compare US to a terrorist group, it'll be insulting to US.

I found it unfunny that you repeatedly misread what people posted in a way that went against everything most people on OO have always stood for.

[Victoria Raverna]

I found it is funny that people are defending Israel by comparing to Hamas which is a terrorist organization and say that Israel is better. I think if someone compare US to a terrorist group, it'll be insulting to US.

I found it unfunny that you repeatedly misread what people posted in a way that went against everything most people on OO have always stood for.

When I wrote about people, it was not about people on OO. Well maybe except one or two members here.

BTW what do you think most people on OO stood for? Care to explain?

[Blackhawk]

BTW what do you think most people on OO stood for? Care to explain?

Given that we've had this discussion here, in detail, multiple times in the past year...

Not particularly, no.