Octopus Overlords

Kurth wrote:

PLW wrote:I still can't believe this guy ran a successful primary campaign.

Bloomberg wrote: An embattled Donald Trump urgently rallied his most visible supporters to defend his attacks on a federal judge's Mexican ancestry during a conference call on Monday in which he ordered them to question the judge's credibility and impugn reporters as racists. "We will overcome," Trump said, according to two supporters who were on the call and requested anonymity to share their notes with Bloomberg Politics. "And I’ve always won and I’m going to continue to win. And that’s the way it is. There was no mention of apologizing or backing away from his widely criticized remarks about U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel, who is overseeing cases against the Trump University real-estate program. When former Arizona Governor Jan Brewer interrupted the discussion to inform Trump that his own campaign had asked surrogates to stop talking about the lawsuit in an e-mail on Sunday, Trump repeatedly demanded to know who sent the memo, and immediately overruled his staff. "Take that order and throw it the hell out," Trump said. Told the memo was sent by Erica Freeman, a staffer who circulates information to surrogates, Trump said he didn't know her. He openly questioned how the campaign could defend itself if supporters weren't allowed to talk. "Are there any other stupid letters that were sent to you folks?" Trump said. "That's one of the reasons I want to have this call, because you guys are getting sometimes stupid information from people that aren't so smart."

Thanks for making me slightly less worried that Trump could actually win. What a total shit show!

And yet... It's been working out OK for him so far. I think Obama probably has the right idea:

Wooing Democratic donors Friday in South Florida, President Barack Obama said the coming election is taking place in a "fascinating media environment" in which "strange things can happen" because celebrity and fame drive so much of the news coverage. Obama said he generally just watches sports on television, but his staff told him presumptive GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump generated 70 percent of recent news coverage. He called on Democrats to develop a sense of urgency. "I want us to run scared the whole time," Obama said at a fundraiser for the Democratic National Committee.

On the one hand, I am way less worried about the odds of Trump winning than I would be about, say, Kasich winning (were he the nominee). On the other hand, the consequences of Trump winning are potentially far more catastrophic than (say) Kasich winning. So I agree with Obama that it's important to "run scared", even if I think the odds of Trump winning are very low.

I am certainly not a big enough fool to dismiss his chances, after I was so sure and wrong about the nomination. I meant what I said literally. I really don't understand how he did it with such a dysfunctional campaign.

It's the Racism, stupid.

Apollo wrote:Is it now fair to say that the majority of Republican voters are racists who have no principles whatsoever, or is that a bit too extreme?

I think it's fair to say that either they don't recognize racism, or they can rationalize it to where doesn't bother them, or they are just plain in denial. "He doesn't really mean that" or "He didn't really say that" seems to come up a lot.

The talking point is "action speaks louder than words". Surrogates will say that when it comes to money and business, trump does not appear to be a racist/bigot. So we're supposed to ignore all the racist/bigoted words that he says.

Apollo wrote:Is it now fair to say that the majority of Republican voters are racists who have no principles whatsoever, or is that a bit too extreme?

They aren't racist, they just aren't politically correct.

PLW wrote:I am certainly not a big enough fool to dismiss his chances, after I was so sure and wrong about the nomination. I meant what I said literally. I really don't understand how he did it with such a dysfunctional campaign.

I think the developing consensus is that Trump won the primary because:

1) Rivals and opinion-makers just assumed he would collapse under his own absurdity,
2) Celebrity status and attention-grabbing antics ensured that he easily dominated media coverage,
3) Large, divided field made it impossible to coordinate an anti-Trump movement until it was too late,
4) Rivals couldn't attack him on substance without alienating the GOP base, and
5) His bigotry, jingoism, and appeal to "strength" were explicit (rather than implicit as in most GOP campaigns).

Only (2) and (5) are relevant to the general election. (2) is a mixed bag as most Trump coverage has gone negative, and (5) turns off more voters than it turns on.

I'd like to think that hatred and fear will only get you so far in a presidential election. But I guess I'm about to find out firsthand.

A look at the massive campaign infrastructure that Trump is building:

I have a crazy theory about why Trump insists on running such a lean campaign. He made a big deal about being self-funded during the primary, but from what I've read he actually loaned money to his campaign rather than giving it outright. If he gets to the end of the election and has money left unspent from all the usual GOP fundraising that is now kicking in to finance his campaign in the general election, I'd bet those loans will be repaid and -- win or lose -- this little adventure of his will end up costing him nothing at all. Hell, he might even figure out a way to turn a profit from it.

I thought he wasn't accepting donations from others, but it looks like he has been, and has accepted ~$14M

I really don't understand taking out a loan in the election. It seems like a big loophole that allows you to keep fundraising after the election is over.

Kraken wrote:

Apollo wrote:Is it now fair to say that the majority of Republican voters are racists who have no principles whatsoever, or is that a bit too extreme?

I think it's fair to say that either they don't recognize racism, or they can rationalize it to where doesn't bother them, or they are just plain in denial. "He doesn't really mean that" or "He didn't really say that" seems to come up a lot.

Rightly or wrongly, they fear the election of Hillary worse. I know many that can't stand Trump, but they will vote for him because they can't stand Hillary worse. The idea of a Democrat appointing several Supreme Court justices in the next 4 years frightens them.

Last week my wife went to see her father and step mother. I made excuses as to why I couldn't go. I've never gotten along with my father in law the past 15 years. In fact, I know he just plain doesn't like me. Because of this, my wife was OK with me staying home.

Now, we've known for months now my father in law and step mother in law are loyal Trump followers. We also know they are both southern born and proud and are openly racist. They don't consider themselves racist naturally. They just don't like the "blacks" or "mexicans". And I use those terms loosely, as they prefer other descriptions.

Additionally, my wife doesn't watch the news and only has a basic working knowledge of what's going on with politics right now. Her goal upon visiting her dad, was to avoid any and all talk about the Presidential race.

Long story short, immediately after arriving at her parents house, she was attacked with the Trump agenda and campaign. She was called an "idiot" if she doesn't vote for Trump and she needed to get her head out of her ass and realize that the"blacks" and "foreigners" are ruining our country. She couldn't escape their attack and she cut her trip short after less than 24 hours. Boy it's a good thing I didn't go.

Yes, this is more than a weekend argument and her issues with her dad goes back decades. However, I see and hear similar type of comments from coworkers and patients at work all the time and I'm thinking, "is this really happening?" I must be a really ignorant fool...but I just can't believe such a large majority of people are so passionately hateful and are buying what they are hearing.

Seems like you can't even have an intelligent or reasonable discussion. I don't know, that's politics I guess and it's why I rarely debate them with anyone I guess.

But are there so many Trump supporters like my in laws? I'm just dumb founded.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

I assume that a lot of Republicans are really torn.

My parents have been rock-solid ideological Republicans since Goldwater. They're no more racist that the average educated American who wants to believe that they aren't racist. They also have a stake in the religious right, so this year they were prepared to support Ted Cruz as the field narrowed. (They've softened a bit over the years, though, so I think their ideal candidate would be someone halfway between Cruz and Jeb.)

Trump is absolutely not what they want. He's too bigoted, too erratic, too vulgar, too un-Christian in his attitudes. My mother would call him tacky, which is about the worst thing she can say about someone. But I really don't know what they'll do in November. Voting for Clinton is impossible for them, so they might hold their noses and trust that President Trump will be restrained by cooler and more ideologically reliable heads in Congress. But I don't know.

I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer. It does appeal to me. It's an outright rejection of this hyper-PC, safe-place, public shaming shit show we've been seeing the last 4 or 5 years.

Edit:

And yes... I am going to hold my nose and vote for him. There's no damned way in the world I'll vote for her or stand passively and let her assume power by my lack of action. If she puts another 3 activists on the Supreme Court it's over with for any semblance of States' rights, gun ownership, and non-federalism. It will sling us down a collision course of what I think will eventually end in widespread violence and insurrection.

A key part of what holds our country together in relative peace is the ability for different regions and states to have a semblance of self direction. People in the south and heartland states live differently than those in the northeast and west. Each state govern people accordingly. Increasingly the federal government has begun to dictate more and more of what these states can do and how these people must live. If this continues, which it surely will with a bunch of federalist progressives on the Supreme Court, it will eventually ignite the differences between us beyond a level that any one of us here is comfortable with.

My family thankfully are outraged by Trump's rhetoric despite being conservatives from Republican territory. My dad's manufacturing job moved to Mexico, then China. My mom works with immigrants, some likely illegal, on production lines because office work is boring. She also enjoyed celebrity apprentice. Both of them have small town outlooks and say plenty of politically incorrect things.

But Trump goes too far for them. I doubt they'll vote for Hillary -- after Bush's tax hikes, my dad bragged to me was voting for Perot to cancel out my vote for Clinton, before I told him I also planned to vote for Perot. More likely they'll bitch and do nothing this year.

Alefroth wrote:

Apollo wrote:Is it now fair to say that the majority of Republican voters are racists who have no principles whatsoever, or is that a bit too extreme?

They aren't racist, they just aren't politically correct.

+++

msduncan wrote:I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer. It does appeal to me. It's an outright rejection of this hyper-PC, safe-place, public shaming shit show we've been seeing the last 4 or 5 years.

Edit:

And yes... I am going to hold my nose and vote for him. There's no damned way in the world I'll vote for her or stand passively and let her assume power by my lack of action. If she puts another 3 activists on the Supreme Court it's over with for any semblance of States' rights, gun ownership, and non-federalism. It will sling us down a collision course of what I think will eventually end in widespread violence and insurrection.

A key part of what holds our country together in relative peace is the ability for different regions and states to have a semblance of self direction. People in the south and heartland states live differently than those in the northeast and west. Each state govern people accordingly. Increasingly the federal government has begun to dictate more and more of what these states can do and how these people must live. If this continues, which it surely will with a bunch of federalist progressives on the Supreme Court, it will eventually ignite the differences between us beyond a level that any one of us here is comfortable with.

Isn't that why we have three branches of the government? I understand your concern but Congress has been gerrymandered, so badly, that the GOP will have a comfortable lead in the House for the forseeable future. I honestly don't see the Senate confirming someone so progressive to upset the status quo too much even if the Dems somehow do gains control.

I like to think that we as a nation have progressed from the 1860's with the talk of a potential civil war. Hell, as a black man I survived the Reagan and Bush years especially the Reagan years where many conservatives see that as a Golden Age, but was not particular fun in my neighborhood.

Trump would be a terrible disaster of a President. He's leads by emotion and apparently doesn't listen to his advisers. If you think that will change if he becomes president you haven't been paying attention to this election season

"Widespread violence and insurrection".

Such grand statements. lol

msduncan wrote:I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer. It does appeal to me. It's an outright rejection of this hyper-PC, safe-place, public shaming shit show we've been seeing the last 4 or 5 years.

Don't look now, but recent shaming attempts have come from his own party. Unless you want to call Newt Gingrich a liberal.

msduncan wrote:I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer. It does appeal to me. It's an outright rejection of this hyper-PC, safe-place, public shaming shit show we've been seeing the last 4 or 5 years.

Edit:

And yes... I am going to hold my nose and vote for him. There's no damned way in the world I'll vote for her or stand passively and let her assume power by my lack of action. If she puts another 3 activists on the Supreme Court it's over with for any semblance of States' rights, gun ownership, and non-federalism. It will sling us down a collision course of what I think will eventually end in widespread violence and insurrection.

A key part of what holds our country together in relative peace is the ability for different regions and states to have a semblance of self direction. People in the south and heartland states live differently than those in the northeast and west. Each state govern people accordingly. Increasingly the federal government has begun to dictate more and more of what these states can do and how these people must live. If this continues, which it surely will with a bunch of federalist progressives on the Supreme Court, it will eventually ignite the differences between us beyond a level that any one of us here is comfortable with.

msduncan wrote:I'm not a Trump guy, but I have to say that the hysteria here about him is both overblown and telling. Telling because you guys are beginning to think that he might be able to actually win this thing and it's fueling the hysteria.

MSD: The Hysteria King of OO

msduncan wrote:I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer.

You tell 'em.

Those damn liberals. How dare they shame Trump by calling out his blatant racism and xenophobia for exactly what it fucking is.

I'm still in love with the idea of a civil war starting because someone got mad at someone else for calling a woman a bitch.

hepcat wrote:

msduncan wrote:I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer. It does appeal to me. It's an outright rejection of this hyper-PC, safe-place, public shaming shit show we've been seeing the last 4 or 5 years.

Edit:

And yes... I am going to hold my nose and vote for him. There's no damned way in the world I'll vote for her or stand passively and let her assume power by my lack of action. If she puts another 3 activists on the Supreme Court it's over with for any semblance of States' rights, gun ownership, and non-federalism. It will sling us down a collision course of what I think will eventually end in widespread violence and insurrection.

A key part of what holds our country together in relative peace is the ability for different regions and states to have a semblance of self direction. People in the south and heartland states live differently than those in the northeast and west. Each state govern people accordingly. Increasingly the federal government has begun to dictate more and more of what these states can do and how these people must live. If this continues, which it surely will with a bunch of federalist progressives on the Supreme Court, it will eventually ignite the differences between us beyond a level that any one of us here is comfortable with.

msduncan wrote:I'm not a Trump guy, but I have to say that the hysteria here about him is both overblown and telling. Telling because you guys are beginning to think that he might be able to actually win this thing and it's fueling the hysteria.

MSD: The Hysteria King of OO

Needs sirens.

I enjoy people complimenting Trump for pushing back against our overly PC culture while at the same time he (among other things) calls for the exclusion of an entire religion from immigrating to the United States. One might take a major party nominee engaging in open bigotry as a sign that our culture as a whole is in fact not terribly PC.

msduncan wrote:And yes... I am going to hold my nose and vote for him. There's no damned way in the world I'll vote for her or stand passively and let her assume power by my lack of action. If she puts another 3 activists on the Supreme Court it's over with for any semblance of States' rights, gun ownership, and non-federalism. It will sling us down a collision course of what I think will eventually end in widespread violence and insurrection.

A key part of what holds our country together in relative peace is the ability for different regions and states to have a semblance of self direction. People in the south and heartland states live differently than those in the northeast and west. Each state govern people accordingly. Increasingly the federal government has begun to dictate more and more of what these states can do and how these people must live. If this continues, which it surely will with a bunch of federalist progressives on the Supreme Court, it will eventually ignite the differences between us beyond a level that any one of us here is comfortable with.

Well, I hope the theoretical retention of state's rights gives you some small comfort when the Trump Youth are going door to door rounding people up for deportation (to the nearest furnace) and the nukes start flying because somebody inadvertently insulted his penis size.

tjg_marantz wrote:"Widespread violence and insurrection".

Such grand statements. lol

Well, they shot a bunch of peaceful liberal protestors in the 60's, but I'm sure they'll handle violent conservative protestors with kid gloves.

Have at it.

This week the news is full of high-profile Republicans denouncing Trump for his attack on Judge Curiel. Paul Ryan plainly called it racism. Lindsay Graham says it's time for Republicans to un-endorse Trump.

All this is totally unprecedented. A nominee being met with anything less than enthusiasm is very rare, but have we ever seen party leaders scold and criticize the nominee like this? There has been not one shred of confetti.

I assume it will blow over. Trump will laugh it all off, and the party will continue pretending to get behind him. But I'm now about 2% wondering if Trump will even make it to the convention.

Hey look, I'm linking to Fox News!

Florida's attorney general personally solicited a political contribution from Donald Trump around the same time her office deliberated joining an investigation of alleged fraud at Trump University and its affiliates.

The new disclosure from Attorney General Pam Bondi's spokesman to The Associated Press on Monday provides additional details around the unusual circumstances of Trump's $25,000 donation to Bondi.

The money came from a Trump family foundation in apparent violation of rules surrounding political activities by charities. A political group backing Bondi's re-election, called And Justice for All, reported receiving the check Sept. 17, 2013 -- four days after Bondi's office publicly announced she was considering joining a New York state probe of Trump University's activities, according to a 2013 report in the Orlando Sentinel.

After the check came in, Bondi's office nixed suing Trump, citing insufficient grounds to proceed.

Man, you guys are sure praying hard for some miracle implosion.

Rip wrote:Man, you guys are sure praying hard for some miracle implosion.

No implosion necessary, let alone a miracle one.

msduncan wrote:I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer.

Trump *should* be shamed for the constant stream of dumb and offensive shit that escapes his lips. And people that continue to support him despite it deserved to be shamed as well. This entire Party should be ashamed of itself.

This was the Party of Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan. And it has nominated this fucking buffoon? I *loathe* Clinton. I desperately want to vote against her. But I can't. Because this Party has lost its way, and has decided to nominate a criminally unqualified, classless asshole to be the leader of the Free World.

It's fucking embarrassing. I will not vote for any member of this Party, for any elected office, at any political level while this Party is still capable of nominating (and then supporting) such a dangerously bad candidate. I've voted Republican for every local and State post in every election of my adult life, with two exceptions (a friend of mine ran for and was elected mayor as a Democrat, and I will always vote for whichever Democratic challenger that faces my Congressman, Scott Garrett, because I promised him that I would do so back in the late 1990s). No more.

Fuck this party. The complete and total lack of principles is staggering to me.

I do wonder whether a $25,000 donation is really enough to buy an end to an investigation.

That aside, I wonder what else is going to come out between now and November. Trump's a greedy and not especially careful sociopath, so the sky's the limit in terms of what else he or people in his employ might have done.

Rip wrote:Man, you guys are sure praying hard for some miracle implosion.

We just wanna see Hillary Hysteria from you and MSD!



p.s. As pointed out, the party doesn't need a miracle to implode. It's already happening in front of our eyes.

msduncan wrote:I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer. It does appeal to me. It's an outright rejection of this hyper-PC, safe-place, public shaming shit show we've been seeing the last 4 or 5 years.

Dude. Whether he is legitimately racist or just likes saying racist things, does it really matter? He wants a judge to recluse himself from a fraud case against him because the judge is Latino. Do you know what legal basis he has for this desire? None. Literally none. Trump says stupid shit to get people thinking stupid shit. Trump's lawyers haven't made a motion for Judge Curiel to recluse himself because there is zero chance for it to succeed, has no legal basis, and might result in sanctions against his lawyers if they do.

As unprincipled as you think Hillary is, Trump doesn't have a principled bone in his body. He will do and say anything to get what he wants. That's the exact quality you profess to hate in Hillary, and Trump is a billion times worse. At least Hillary will do her job if elected. Any hope that Trump will do the job is based on fantasy and ignoring facts in evidence. Trump doesn't even know how to do the job if he even wanted to do it.

If Hillary is what's wrong with the political system, Trump is what's wrong with human beings.

hepcat wrote:

Rip wrote:Man, you guys are sure praying hard for some miracle implosion.

We just wanna see Hillary Hysteria from you and MSD!



p.s. As pointed out, the party doesn't need a miracle to implode. It's already happening in front of our eyes.

I will say that "implode" is probably too strong. This is likely to be a rough fall for Republicans, but partisanship is an incredibly strong thing these days, so no matter how bad it gets Trump's still going to win a bunch of states, and while Clinton is likely to be heavy favorite it's very unlikely to be a wipeout.

Really the worst case scenario for Republicans is that Trump causes them to lose like 6 Senate seats instead of 4, and maybe 5 - 10 additional House seats.

The *major* worry for Republicans is that this election season will poison the GOP long term for Hispanic voters the way that Goldwater's candidacy did so for African-American voters.

hepcat wrote:As pointed out, the party doesn't need a miracle to implode. It's already happening in front of our eyes.

There are too many people like MSD who are willing to put party and ideology ahead of their country for that to happen. The few conservatives out there that still have actual principles (i.e. Kristol) will lose them come election time.

RunningMn9 wrote:

msduncan wrote:I do like his policy of responding to the typical liberal attempts at shaming with a goddamn hammer.

Trump *should* be shamed for the constant stream of dumb and offensive shit that escapes his lips. And people that continue to support him despite it deserved to be shamed as well. This entire Party should be ashamed of itself.

This was the Party of Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan. And it has nominated this fucking buffoon? I *loathe* Clinton. I desperately want to vote against her. But I can't. Because this Party has lost its way, and has decided to nominate a criminally unqualified, classless asshole to be the leader of the Free World.

It's fucking embarrassing. I will not vote for any member of this Party, for any elected office, at any political level while this Party is still capable of nominating (and then supporting) such a dangerously bad candidate. I've voted Republican for every local and State post in every election of my adult life, with two exceptions (a friend of mine ran for and was elected mayor as a Democrat, and I will always vote for whichever Democratic challenger that faces my Congressman, Scott Garrett, because I promised him that I would do so back in the late 1990s). No more.

Fuck this party. The complete and total lack of principles is staggering to me.

But you have to admit they achieved the impossible -- no longer is Sarah Palin the party whack job. I bet they welcome her with open arms to the 2020 race.

RunningMn9 wrote:

hepcat wrote:As pointed out, the party doesn't need a miracle to implode. It's already happening in front of our eyes.

There are too many people like MSD who are willing to put party and ideology ahead of their country for that to happen. The few conservatives out there that still have actual principles (i.e. Kristol) will lose them come election time.

There is the potential for some karmic justice this election season. If Trump causes McCain to lose his Senate seat in Arizona, that would be some poetry for him having elevated Palin (Trump 1.0) in 2008.