Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory

[El Guapo]

12. El Guapo - Love to have him in his first game. I'm reading him Empire right now but the El G is so smart I wouldn't be surprised if he plays like a more experienced player quite quickly especially if he is being coached in the rebel forum.

Aww, shucks...

Don't think I won't vote to lynch you, though.

Also technically this isn't my first game. I was in one WW game previously, some years ago. This is the sum total of what I remember from that game: (1) I'm 98% sure that I was an unpowered human; (2) Grund was in that game; and (3) I am 51% sure that we (the villagers) won.

[triggercut]

Scoop's post last night is one of the most baffling things I've seen in a game in a while.

FWIW, I remain steadfast in belief that CR gave away inside knowledge of the Rebel roster yesterday, and as we sit looking for someone to lynch he is a solid gold target.

[Qantaga]

I'm back!

ezmate!

[Qantaga]

Unagi 2 <----------------- Tru1cy, El Guapo
Scoop20906 7 <---------- Stessier, Lassr, Pr0ner, Remus West, Lord Mortis, Semaj, Chaosraven
Chaosraven 6 <---------- Kenetickid, Triggercut, RMC, Coopasonic, Newcastle, Theohall
Tru1cy 2 <---------------- Qantaga, Grundbegriff
Triggercut 2 <----------- Isgrimnur, Unagi
Semaj 1 <----------------- Mr Bubbles
Pr0ner 1 <---------------- Scoop20906

Let's lynch someone, preferably someone that already has lots of votes. You guys with your votes in unlikely, pick a train and get on!

I still like my vote on tru1cy.

However, it doesn't look like tru1cy will gain enough traction before the deadline. Since the worst thing that can happen is a non-lynch, if tru1cy doesn't garner enough support for a lynch by later today, I'll move my vote to a more viable candidate.

trig is making an interesting case against Chaos. I'll have to put some thought into that.

Scoop may very well be a Rebel, but I don't like the argument that he's a Rebel because he got upset with pr0ner's joke. It seems like I've seen those two get into some heated exchanges before. I'll have to put some thought into Scoop's "peppy" post and do a re-read through both his and Chaos' posts before I move my vote to either of them.

[Scoop20906]

Wow. I never expected chaos to move from illogical statements to absurd ones? My comment that about KK was based on his attitude and not quantity of posts. He seemed unconcerned and peppy when under trig's microscope almost like he knew it would pass.

Now chaos has blinked and interestingly lassr was right there to back him up. Perhaps the Rebs were concerned with the votes building on chaos and wanted to attempt to chain momentum back to me. If so, this play is going to seriously backfire on them.

 chaosraven 
 


I'm feeling very good about my vote for chaos now and we may have uncovered two Rebs.

[LordMortis]

First breeze by OO this morning and I hope the dark and calm forces that keep order in the galaxy come together properly and do our jobs. Those that would distort your vision with pretension of too much and blinding light while the sabotaging your world through your blurred vision do so through our inability to impose order on the chaos that is our day. Now would be a good time to try and understand our fears and lay them to waste.

1) I concur with the getting off the not likely to be voted off votes, though I sympathies with not wanting to vote for people you don't want to vote for. In that case you need to start making cases for and against rather than posting a lame duck vote. We need to lynch someone by tomorrow and you are either part of order of things or part of the chaos that would plunge us into night with no preparation. Protest votes or votes to prove you aren't quiet aren't going to help when Wednesday rolls around. Though I must say, I'd like to see some historic trends of protest inactive voting behavior. While I think it's exceptionally anti empire, our last game seems to point to Grund being the only bad guy to play this way.

2) I'm staying on Scoop, with my primary reason being that I really hate the bump them to edge and then pull back and then lynch them later anyway philosophy.

3) If you take chaosraven (or anyone else) up the edge, I'll jump the scoop ship. I won't like it but I'll do it. any port in a storm.

[El Guapo]

I don't like voting for Scoop based on the "peppy" comment. KK's behavior seems mildly suspicious (rarely posting except when mentioned), which seems like someone trying very hard to stay hidden. Even if the "peppy" is inaccurate in that sense, I'd think what would make more sense would be to vote for KK, and if he came back rebel then consider whether to vote for Scoop. I could be persuaded to vote KK, but with no votes on him and a day from the deadline that doesn't seem likely to happen.

I can also get on board the chaosraven train, though. The logic behind "let's see if Dooku is out there" seems odd for the reasons discussed - as trig notes it seems generally to give more information to the rebels than to us. We could I suppose agree on someone to lynch, then invite Dooku to come forward, cast his secret vote, and then vote up to n-1 to verify...but even if that succeeded, I'd think that would only get Dooku killed at night.

Seems like the case against Scoop consists of a few things: (1) reacting poorly to pr0ner's joke; (2) the "Yoda" n-1 thing; and (3) now I guess the 'peppy' comment. #3 seems insubstantial for the reasons above. #1 is something, but thin. And I find the n-1 thing to not be terribly informative either; there was only 15 minutes where he was at n-1, and if I were Yoda I might well wait until n-1 to cast my vote since it can't be changed.

Scoop's not a *bad* day 1 choice, but not great either.

Anyways, I could see going for Chaos or Scoop, and possibly KK. Between the first two, I like Chaos a bit more as a vote, so:

 withdraw Unagi

Chaosraven 
 

[Lassr]

lassr was right there to back him up. .

you really are grasping for ways to get me lynched which doesn't help you in my eyes since I am Empire. I never backed up Chaos, I just never responded to what he said because I wasn't sure how to take it.

[triggercut]

How about if we run  scoop 
 
back up to n-1 and see if Dooku wants to let us all know he's here?

For the late-arrivers, here's the post where, to my eyes, Chaosraven gives it up that he's a Rebel.

I had already mentioned up-thread that Scoop surviving to N-1 earlier possibly meant a lack of Yoda. Numerous folks disagreed with me, and I concur with that. Yoda and Dooku cast that overvote once per day, and it is immovable when cast. The train on Scoop built over a span of 12 hours, and if Yoda wasn't around it's possible he didn't get a vote in, or didn't see a buried rules clarification that the overvoters can set a conditional with bb2112 to place their vote when X gets to N-1. The assumption made by multiple posters was that Scoop's survival by no means precluded the presence of Yoda in the game.

And then CR posts this, making it pretty clear that he has knowledge that Yoda isn't in the game. That's damning, strikes one and two.

Then when asked to clarify...

You guys are such Dorks. R2D2 isn't going to waste his one time on this, regardless of Scoops alignment. Yoda and Dooku can overvote every day. If scoop is rebel, yoda won't (as it just gives us his teammate), if scoop is empire it tells us Yoda exists. As *I* stated earlier, it would be silly for Dooku to use it as he has no way of knowing which scoop is and eliminates one vote from the voting pattern. HOWEVER if he wished us to know he exists he could do so either privately or publicly. With a possible Thrawn and possible Boba Fett to protect it'd be his call.

The gist of that? CR suggests that Dooku let "us" know he's in-game, even though we don't know whether or not Yoda is. In other words, if Scoop gets to N-1 and suddenly we hear "That's enough for a lynch", those of us in the Empire don't know whether it was Dooku, Yoda, or even possibly R2 that put him over...but the Rebels know whether Yoda is in the game and if he is who his overvote is on. In other words, in CR's cockamamie (a fine Mad Magazine word, that!) scheme, the Rebels stand to gain plenty of info, the Empire...not so much.

[Unagi]

I think the focus on what Chaos said is really weird. The whole "Dooku" thing.
The premis that triggercut is pushing is that this was a slip - and that it was Chaos forgetting that Yoda (and R2D2) could be in the game...


I'm sorry, but - wha???

Read.

Chaos, on Sunday night tells us:

Why in the hell would Dooku throw his extra vote? 'proving' himself with it makes sense. Throwing mud in the water (gee was it yoda or dooku?) against a player he has no actual knowledge of (unlike Yoda) is just silly.

And then Monday night says:

How about if we run  scoop 
 
back up to n-1 and see if Dooku wants to let us all know he's here?

Triggercut nails him:

How about if we run  scoop 
 
back up to n-1 and see if Dooku wants to let us all know he's here?

What if Scoop is Dooku, and thus Empire?

What if Dooku believes Scoop to be an Empire teammate?

Flawed premises for $200!

and then hammers it in:

So hold the phone, Chuck.

Why does Chaosraven think that the only over-vote role active in the game belongs to Count Dooku?

Does he know that there's no Yoda and no R2?

Did we just get our first break in the game here?

Seriously folks, we should be lynching  triggercut 
 


Get on the Triggercut vote - we'll see how the night goes for Scoop and CR.

[Isgrimnur]

Wasn't your vote already there?

[Unagi]

Wasn't your vote already there?

Yes, I'm from Chicago.

(you fool - it's a psycological trick to get people to join it.)

[Isgrimnur]

My apologies for pulling back the curtain. Just call me Toto.

[triggercut]

I think the focus on what Chaos said is really weird. The whole "Dooku" thing.
The premis that triggercut is pushing is that this was a slip - and that it was Chaos forgetting that Yoda (and R2D2) could be in the game...


I'm sorry, but - wha???

Read.

Chaos, on Sunday night tells us:

Why in the hell would Dooku throw his extra vote? 'proving' himself with it makes sense. Throwing mud in the water (gee was it yoda or dooku?) against a player he has no actual knowledge of (unlike Yoda) is just silly.

And then Monday night says:

How about if we run  scoop 
 
back up to n-1 and see if Dooku wants to let us all know he's here?

Triggercut nails him:

How about if we run  scoop 
 
back up to n-1 and see if Dooku wants to let us all know he's here?

What if Scoop is Dooku, and thus Empire?

What if Dooku believes Scoop to be an Empire teammate?

Flawed premises for $200!

and then hammers it in:

So hold the phone, Chuck.

Why does Chaosraven think that the only over-vote role active in the game belongs to Count Dooku?

Does he know that there's no Yoda and no R2?

Did we just get our first break in the game here?

Seriously folks, we should be lynching  triggercut 
 


Get on the Triggercut vote - we'll see how the night goes for Scoop and CR.

So where's the lack of hinky-ness, Alderaan-breath?

[theohall]

I think the focus on what Chaos said is really weird. The whole "Dooku" thing.
The premis that triggercut is pushing is that this was a slip - and that it was Chaos forgetting that Yoda (and R2D2) could be in the game...


I'm sorry, but - wha???

triggercut's premise is that Chaosraven knows Yoda is not in the game, because he is a rebel and all the rebels know each other's roles, due to them having the secret forum thing. The slip is this:

How about if we run  scoop 
 
back up to n-1 and see if Dooku wants to let us all know he's here?

How would we "know" if Dooku was here, unless he actually announced? Thus, giving the rebels even more info right off the bat. Yes, Dooku, if he exists, could announce and hope to be protected. However, there might not be a protector in the game, so why would Dooku want to announce this early?

[triggercut]

Unagi's just priming the pump for his Day 2 visit to the swinging party.

[Unagi]

I think the focus on what Chaos said is really weird. The whole "Dooku" thing.
The premis that triggercut is pushing is that this was a slip - and that it was Chaos forgetting that Yoda (and R2D2) could be in the game...


I'm sorry, but - wha???

triggercut's premise is that Chaosraven knows Yoda is not in the game, because he is a rebel and all the rebels know each other's roles, due to them having the secret forum thing. The slip is this:

How about if we run  scoop 
 
back up to n-1 and see if Dooku wants to let us all know he's here?

How would we "know" if Dooku was here, unless he actually announced? Thus, giving the rebels even more info right off the bat. Yes, Dooku, if he exists, could announce and hope to be protected. However, there might not be a protector in the game, so why would Dooku want to announce this early?

Theohall,

My point is this.... Chaos already addressed EXACTLY THAT , 24 hours before with this post:

Why in the hell would Dooku throw his extra vote? 'proving' himself with it makes sense. Throwing mud in the water (gee was it yoda or dooku?) against a player he has no actual knowledge of (unlike Yoda) is just silly.

One can read CR's Dooku comment as an invite to Catch Yoda posing as Dooku.

[Unagi]

My apologies for pulling back the curtain. Just call me Toto.

Are you concerned that others may actually join the vote that you yourself are on? I'm not understanding your intentions.

[theohall]

I think the focus on what Chaos said is really weird. The whole "Dooku" thing.
The premis that triggercut is pushing is that this was a slip - and that it was Chaos forgetting that Yoda (and R2D2) could be in the game...


I'm sorry, but - wha???

triggercut's premise is that Chaosraven knows Yoda is not in the game, because he is a rebel and all the rebels know each other's roles, due to them having the secret forum thing. The slip is this:

How about if we run  scoop 
 
back up to n-1 and see if Dooku wants to let us all know he's here?

How would we "know" if Dooku was here, unless he actually announced? Thus, giving the rebels even more info right off the bat. Yes, Dooku, if he exists, could announce and hope to be protected. However, there might not be a protector in the game, so why would Dooku want to announce this early?

Theohall,

My point is this.... Chaos already addressed EXACTLY THAT , 24 hours before with this post:

Why in the hell would Dooku throw his extra vote? 'proving' himself with it makes sense. Throwing mud in the water (gee was it yoda or dooku?) against a player he has no actual knowledge of (unlike Yoda) is just silly.

One can read CR's Dooku comment as an invite to Catch Yoda posing as Dooku.

That doesn't preclude CR from screwing up. That some quote you just used specifically says "proving himself with it makes sense".

[triggercut]

One can read CR's Dooku comment as an invite to Catch Yoda posing as Dooku.

Or, instead of the mental gymnastics to make that work, one can read it using Occam's Razor as an error, and I wasn't the only person who latched onto it.

[Unagi]

So where's the lack of hinky-ness...

You've confused me.

"Where is the Lack of Hinky-ness."

Could you ask me that some other way?

[Unagi]

One can read CR's Dooku comment as an invite to Catch Yoda posing as Dooku.

Or, instead of the mental gymnastics to make that work, one can read it using Occam's Razor as an error, and I wasn't the only person who latched onto it.

But you just ignore the comment that CR made the day before which directly addresses the edge of your razor.

[triggercut]

So where's the lack of hinky-ness...

You've confused me.

"Where is the Lack of Hinky-ness."

Could you ask me that some other way?

Probably should've said "Where's the hinky-ness" actually, regarding my analysis of Chaosraven.

Your response does not say what you seem to think it does.

[triggercut]

One can read CR's Dooku comment as an invite to Catch Yoda posing as Dooku.

Or, instead of the mental gymnastics to make that work, one can read it using Occam's Razor as an error, and I wasn't the only person who latched onto it.

But you just ignore the comment that CR made the day before which directly addresses the edge of your razor.

...because that post does not having him pre-supposing a lack of Yoda. The post I latched onto does.

Unagi, why do you want to let the Rebels know whether Dooku is in the game?

[Unagi]

One can read CR's Dooku comment as an invite to Catch Yoda posing as Dooku.

Or, instead of the mental gymnastics to make that work, one can read it using Occam's Razor as an error, and I wasn't the only person who latched onto it.

But you just ignore the comment that CR made the day before which directly addresses the edge of your razor.

...because that post does not having him pre-supposing a lack of Yoda. The post I latched onto does.

So, you ignore the post where it's clear he doesn't "pre-suppose a lack of Yoda", yet you latch onto his very next quote and go Bat-Shit-Occam's-Razor on him for obviously 'pre-supposing' a lack of Yoda'. You are not letting his first quote into your "Occam's Razor" world of data.

Unagi, why do you want to let the Rebels know whether Dooku is in the game?

What an odd accusation... What am I doing that would help them know if Dooku is in the game?

[Unagi]

That really sounded like you just accused me of wanting to help the rebels, and at the same time - like you know I am not one of them.

Anyone else see that?

Unagi, why do you want to let the Rebels know whether Dooku is in the game?

[Isgrimnur]

My apologies for pulling back the curtain. Just call me Toto.

Are you concerned that others may actually join the vote that you yourself are on? I'm not understanding your intentions.

No, I'd love more people on the triggercut vote. My apology was for calling attention to your sneaky, Galactic City Dictatorial Organization methods.

[Isgrimnur]

My apologies for pulling back the curtain. Just call me Toto.

Are you concerned that others may actually join the vote that you yourself are on? I'm not understanding your intentions.

No, I'd love more people on the triggercut vote. My apology was for calling attention to your sneaky, Galactic City Dictatorial Organization methods.

[theohall]

So, you ignore the post where it's clear he doesn't "pre-suppose a lack of Yoda", yet you latch onto his very next quote and go Bat-Shit-Occam's-Razor on him for obviously 'pre-supposing' a lack of Yoda'. You are not letting his first quote into your "Occam's Razor" world of data.

You think CR didn't screw up with post which didn't mention Yoda, using your own thought processes to explain it away. Several of us think CR did screw up in the post in which he didn't mention Yoda. Is it that hard to understand?

[coopasonic]

My apologies for pulling back the curtain. Just call me Toto.

Are you concerned that others may actually join the vote that you yourself are on? I'm not understanding your intentions.

Perhaps he got excited that he had another co-voter and posted out of bitter, bitter disappointment. As you may recall, rebels tend to be whiny or was that just Luke?

[coopasonic]

My apologies for pulling back the curtain. Just call me Toto.

Are you concerned that others may actually join the vote that you yourself are on? I'm not understanding your intentions.

Perhaps he got excited that he had another co-voter and posted out of bitter, bitter disappointment. As you may recall, rebels tend to be whiny or was that just Luke?

[Unagi]

That really sounded like you just accused me of wanting to help the rebels, and at the same time - like you know I am not one of them.

Anyone else see that?

Unagi, why do you want to let the Rebels know whether Dooku is in the game?

If he was full out accusing me of being a rebel, would he have said: "Why do you want to let the Rebels know...."

or would that have been more like: "Why do you want to know if Dooku is in the game?"

[Unagi]

That really sounded like you just accused me of wanting to help the rebels, and at the same time - like you know I am not one of them.

Anyone else see that?

Unagi, why do you want to let the Rebels know whether Dooku is in the game?

if he was full out accusing me of being a rebel, would he have said: "Why do you want to let the Rebels know...."

or would that have been more like: "Why do you want to know if Dooku is in the game?"

[triggercut]

What an odd accusation... What am I doing that would help them know if Dooku is in the game?

Your deafening support of CR's misplay and then explanation in which he tells us how this should be done to expose Count Dooku seems rather odd, dude.

[Isgrimnur]

My apologies for pulling back the curtain. Just call me Toto.

Are you concerned that others may actually join the vote that you yourself are on? I'm not understanding your intentions.

No, I'd love more people on the triggercut vote. My apology was for calling attention to your sneaky, Galactic City Dictatorial Organization methods.

[triggercut]

No, I'd love more people on the triggercut vote.

Why?

Is there a reason you'd like the Rebels to win?

[Unagi]

So, you ignore the post where it's clear he doesn't "pre-suppose a lack of Yoda", yet you latch onto his very next quote and go Bat-Shit-Occam's-Razor on him for obviously 'pre-supposing' a lack of Yoda'. You are not letting his first quote into your "Occam's Razor" world of data.

You think CR didn't screw up with post which didn't mention Yoda, using your own thought processes to explain it away. Several of us think CR did screw up in the post in which he didn't mention Yoda. Is it that hard to understand?

You just have it in for me, I think, and I don't think you are listening to my point.

The order of posts is a little important.... the post I am talking about came first, and that provides the reader with context for the second post.

Example.

Let's say I post:
"We need to be careful here, the Evil Seer could fake our Seer"
then tomorrow I post something like:
"Now, perhaps our Seer would like to step forward and tell us who he scanned"

Would it be proper to go crazy over my second post and say "HEY! Unagi is trying to set us up, he hasn't even considered the fact that the Evil Seer can fake it!".


I am not saying that CR is 'empire', I am saying that his post read totally normal to me, and I am empire. It didn't read like a slip - it read like a 'Set-up', to be honest - and it read like he was willing to let some Yoda go ahead with what he hinted at before:

Why in the hell would Dooku throw his extra vote? 'proving' himself with it makes sense. Throwing mud in the water (gee was it yoda or dooku?) against a player he has no actual knowledge of (unlike Yoda) is just silly.

[triggercut]

Unagi, here's the problem with that:

1. As noted by Grundbegriff, what happens if Yoda spoofs the role of Dooku here (and there's no Dooku?) Extremely high risk/high reward play.
2. Chaos telegraphing the play tells a Yoda who missed a chance to put Scoop over earlier that he should cancel any conditionals with the moderator, and tells him not to place his vote at all (if he hasn't) to keep himself hidden.
3. Which requires Count Dooku playing along with this gambit, and essentially exposing himself at the risk of not having much overnight protection available...
4. ...and finally and most importantly, this play may reveal the presence of Count Dooku, but it does not tell us with surety that Yoda is absent the game. In other words, it is a play that is very likely to give the Rebels more information than the Empire.

[theohall]

You just have it in for me, I think, and I don't think you are listening to my point.

I "have it in for" you by removing my initial joke vote on you, voting for someone completely different, and disagreeing with your point??? I just disagree with your assessment of CR's posts and agree with triggercut's assessment that it was a slip.

If CR does prove to be a rebel, I will probably pull the bulldog act and try to get you lynched.

[Unagi]

I "have it in for" you by removing my initial joke vote on you, voting for someone completely different, and disagreeing with your point??? I just disagree with your assessment of CR's posts and agree with triggercut's assessment that it was a slip.

I guess it was just your bolded "You", which seemed to be in response to my bolded "he doesn't", but since that emphasis was directed at triggercut - I found it a little 'finger in the chest' like for you to throw it back at me like that.

That's what was behind my 'have it in for me'.