The Randomness of the Pen and the Paper

[Blackhawk]

Well, that or a retributive strike!

[Blackhawk]

That's unexpected. Upcoming Kickstarter for Pathfinder for Savage Worlds.
I would not have expected Paizo to license out their IP to a competitor, especially so soon after the launch of PF2e.

[IceBear]

Yup...and backed. Looks like they are making class edges to make it more PF / D&D like with classes rather than a bunch of skills.

It's probably going to be a win win. Sounds like they will be making it possible for SW players to pick up old PF modules and run them with a little conversion (extra cash for Paizo) and then some PF players might give this a shot and PEG gets to sell some extra books

[Blackhawk]

I backed for the rules. I love Golarion (the Pathfinder setting) and there are some great PF modules, but converting from Pathfinder 1e to 2e is a huge pain, and I'm done with crunchy games. Being able to play a few of the modules that have caught my eye over the years (Skull & Shackles, Kingmaker, Reign of Winter, Ironfang Invasion, Rise of the Runelords) with Pathfinder with minimal conversion (I've run enough Savage Worlds to convert on the fly if I had to) would be fantastic.

I just hope I can get my hands on a gaming group in a year or so when such things become possible again.

[IceBear]

I had bought Fantasy Grounds waaay back when it first came out thinking that I might need to play online as it looked like my group was dissolving. It never did so I had shelved it until last spring. It'll never replace face to face gaming but it allowed my group to continue playing during the past year. The automation in it for SW is really good...will actually miss some of it when we get back to face to face

[IceBear]

And I love Pinnacle's Kickstarters. No waiting huge amounts of time for your rewards.. ks finishes in Feb and should have the core rules by April (might be later for some of the other stuff)

[Blackhawk]

I had bought Fantasy Grounds waaay back when it first came out thinking that I might need to play online as it looked like my group was dissolving. It never did so I had shelved it until last spring. It'll never replace face to face gaming but it allowed my group to continue playing during the past year. The automation in it for SW is really good...will actually miss some of it when we get back to face to face

Yeah, I ran a few sessions (of Pathfinder 2e) on Roll20, and would return to an online option if it came to that, but I hate running that way. You can't see the players, can't see their reactions, can't "read the room", which while not my strength, I still found a huge challenge to play without. Is a silence shock, thought, confusion, boredom?

[IceBear]

Agreed...it actually led to two of my players not speaking to each other...the body language being missing from the equation really aggravated their friction.

I wouldn't want to play this way forever

[Blackhawk]

Yup...and backed. Looks like they are making class edges to make it more PF / D&D like with classes rather than a bunch of skills.

It's probably going to be a win win. Sounds like they will be making it possible for SW players to pick up old PF modules and run them with a little conversion (extra cash for Paizo) and then some PF players might give this a shot and PEG gets to sell some extra books

It occurred to me last night that if the bestiary is fully fleshed out, it would be just as easy to use the Savage Pathfinder rules (class edges, etc) to convert and play any of five editions worth of D&D modules, too.

[IceBear]

Yeah...someone was lamenting that they didn't convert D&D 5E. I'm like Pathfinder is D&D. The rules that differentiate between Pathfinder and 5E are going to be the same in SW...the core Savage Worlds rules.

Now...they'll be tweaking them with setting rules for flavor...I wonder if they'll use the Unstoppable rule from Rifts for "boss" monsters to prevent acing dice from killing the dragon outright

[Blackhawk]

Yeah...someone was lamenting that they didn't convert D&D 5E. I'm like Pathfinder is D&D. The rules that differentiate between Pathfinder and 5E are going to be the same in SW...the core Savage Worlds rules.

Now...they'll be tweaking them with setting rules for flavor...I wonder if they'll use the Unstoppable rule from Rifts for "boss" monsters to prevent acing dice from killing the dragon outright

Yep. The difference PF and D&D is mechanical, and those mechanics are removed in this conversion. There may need to be a small tweak to a race, and maybe one or two classes switched if you want to be 'true' to D&D, but in Savage Worlds that's an hour's work before the campaign, nothing more.

Having not tried Rifts, what's the Unstoppable rule? I've had a couple of encounters go sour because of out of control acing (and one that went sour because nobody could manage to ace.)

[IceBear]

There are a couple of rules that help with monster survival.

1) Wound Cap (applies to PCs too): No matter how much damage you take it caps at 4 Wounds. Get hit for 100 damage, just 4 Wounds so if you were unwounded you only have to Soak 1.

2) Fanatics: came with Flash Gordon. Basically if the boss (Ming) takes a hit but there's a nearby minion it'll jump in front and take the hit instead

Then in Rifts, where the damage numbers are crazy they came up with Unstoppable. Think they only gave it to one or two monsters (essentially god-like extra dimensional beings). The gist of the rule is after the damage is soaked the target can only suffer 1 wound. Get hit for 7 wounds (not using wound cap) and fail to soak any...just 1 wound. Considering that the creature in Rifts also had fast regeneration it's pretty much unkillable.

Since larger creatures have more than 4 wounds before being incapacitated probably all they'll need for dragons are the extra wounds plus the Wound Cap rule.

Just the way most D&D adventures are written with climactic boss battles at the end it might leave a weird feeling if the first attack aces like crazy and kills the boss

[Blackhawk]

Just the way most D&D adventures are written with climactic boss battles at the end it might leave a weird feeling if the first attack aces like crazy and kills the boss

Which is exactly what I had happen once. I realized my mistake later - I should have made the actual boss more than just the boss (like a boss plus minions plus apparatus.) That way actually killing the boss would be the easy part - getting to him to kill him, and then stopping what he had in motion would have been difficult. But it was my first campaign in Savage Worlds, and the first campaign I'd run after more than a decade off, so I forgive myself.

[Skinypupy]

Please bear with me for a proud dad moment.

Little B 11.10 had a creative writing assignment to do at school over the past couple weeks, and decided to write up a story based on our current Ghosts of Saltmarsh campaign. She'd been really hesitant to show me what she'd been writing because she didn't think it was any good. I finally convinced her to let me read it tonight before she turns it in tomorrow. I think it's pretty great (and is a very accurate retelling of our first few sessions). Kithna is her halfling rogue, and Khergor is my dwarven Cleric.

She says she wants to continue writing as we move through the campaign. We'll see if that happens, but this was a good start.

Spoiler:

The Saltmarsh Quest

It was a very unusual day in the little town of Saltmarsh, very unusual indeed. Saltmarsh was a quaint little town located on the coast of the Azure Sea. Nothing too exciting ever happened there except for when adventurers came into town.

Kithna Mistward was aggravated, she had just been training her pet mouse, Morning Dew, how to fetch on the dirt road when a bustle of legs came and knocked her off of balance.

"Ugh, they never look down," she muttered.

A group of four strange people passed by Kithna. Right as she was about to yell, she realized that these people were very obviously not townsfolk. For one, one of then had scales!

The newcomers walked in pairs of two. On pair was a dragonborn and a teifling, the other, a human bard, at least Kithna thought she was a human, and a deep gnome. The bard was singing a song and the deep gnome winced when she got to the higher notes. A dragon born is a humanoid dragon figure. It has the scales of a dragon and the face and powers of a dragon, but it mostly walks and talks like a human. A teifling is a basically a person who looks like a demon. They have thick horns atop their heads and long tails.

"Hmm," she muttered.

"KHERGOR!" Kithna yelled.

"What?"

Khergor was Kithna's very good friend. He had a long white beard and gold and silver amour. He wielded a battle hammer and a great axe and hailed the god Torm. He was a cleric, so he both fought for freedom and he was an excellent healer. The most annoying thing about Khergor though, was his complete devotion to his god, Torm. Khergor had to slay all undead to keep his promise to the god, and that, one day, would get them in trouble.

"Khergor, come on!" Kithna yelled, "I think we may have found ourselves some warriors,"

Kithna and Khergor headed together toward the bar. Kithna started to kick a rock down the dirt road and she marveled at some of the things that streetside merchants were selling. Of course she wasn't rich, she and Khergor had just enough money for the two of them.

Kithna Mistward was a halfling. She was about 3 feet tall and was an excellent rogue. A rogue is a thief and Kithna made a profession off of it. Kithna had reddish hair and was dressed in typical black rogue gear. She had a sash on her back and her daggers fastened on her belt. On her side she wore a short-sword in leather patterned sheath. She had piercing green eyes and she had the nasty habit of pickpocketing strangers.

"I saw them walk this way," Kithna said, "What were you looking at?"

"Oh, just a new hammer," Khergor explained, "This one is getting a bit rust... Oh! Here we are!"

Khergor stopped in his tracks and Kithna ran straight into his back. Just as she was about to yelp with pain, she heard muttering coming from a table close to the door. She heard the words money and quest and she thought that now was a perfect time to casually stroll into the tavern.

Kithna whispered into Khergor's ear, "Khergor. I might have just found a way to make us some money. Now listen closely, I have a plan,"

Within minutes, Kithna and her dwarf friend had constructed a fool proof plan, that is if Khergor could manage his part. Kithna walked into the tavern with an air of confidence around her. The muttering stopped. Just then Khergor walked in, and sat at the bar. He decided to order two beers and he and Kithna sat down at the table right behind the warriors. The table in front of them had a Dragon born and a teifling sitting at it. As soon as they sat down, the talking started again. Kithna glanced around the tavern, observing these new adventurers.

The dragon born was about 6 feet tall and he had red-orange scales. He had a great sword in the sheath on his die and he wore nice leather armor. He had a menacing face but he laughed at one of the teifling jokes his face lit up and suddenly he didn't look so frightening anymore. One thing was for certain however, this dragon born was huge and very muscular. The teifling had black skin with white marking on her face and a gold ridge between her white, milky eyes. She wore a basic wizard's robe with a gold embroidery along the edges. She had a mages mark on her hand. She was tall, but not nearly as tall as the dragon born and she was very sleek and graceful. She was the one who had made the dragon born laugh, Kithna guessed.

"Good one Glory!" the dragon born bellowed.

"Haha!" the teifling laughed. "Thanks X!"

Kithna had been listening in and she chuckled a little when she heard the Teifling's joke. It was an old joke that she had heard a while back, but it was a good one. Based off what she had heard, Kithna presumed that the teifling was Glory and the dragonborn was X.

Sitting at a table all the way across the tavern was a pair of adventurers who looked like they were very good friends. One was a deep gnome an the other a human, at least she looked human. The deep gnome had a blueish tint to his skin and he seemed to be wearing a dark cloak with a large imprint of a dragon in the back. He carried a couple of tools on a belt, some of which Kithna recognized as tools some thieves used, but very rarely. He had a short-bow around his shoulder and Kithna guessed he was a ranger. A deep gnome is a kind of short person, they live underground in a place called the under-dark and they have excellent survival skills. He seemed to be talking with an old woman at his table, but Kithna decided to worry about that later, right now she was focused on the bard. The bard had orange hair with streaks of black in some places. She had a quiver of arrows strapped on her back and Kithna could tell that she was definitely a bard based on her upbeat attitude and excitement. She was wearing a tight outfit, not robes but a sleek, smooth clothing. Kithna would have to ask what it was made of later.

This is when Kithna's plan came into action. While she was looking in from outside, she had seen the deep gnome and the bard talking to an old lady and she was wondering why they were so hunched and secretive. Kithna had a sharp eye like that, she could see though lots of things and was rather intelligent. She had decided to pick the table kind of close to these adventurers for a reason. There was a clatter of chairs that made Kithna jump. The dragon born and the teifling walked over to Kithna and Khergor's table.

"Hey. My name is X and this is my friend Glory," the dragonborn said. The teifling gave a small wave in their direction.

"Do you mind if we join you?" she asked.

"Oh! Sure! We don't mind," Khergor exclaimed, happy to meet a dragonborn.

The two adventurers pulled up some chairs and sat down. Kithna held back a cry as the dragonborn accidentally stepped on her foot. "Ooh. I'm sorry," the dragon said with a wince when he realized what he did. "It's fine," Kithna said, trying to look tough in front of this dragonborn. She didn't want to look like a wimp in front of this warrior.

"So," Glory said in a smooth voice, "What are your names?"

"Well," Kithna rubbed her chin in thought. These adventurers told her their names, it was only right to let them know hers. "My name is Kithna and this here is Khergor," Kithna stated, "As a matter of fact, we are looking for some money making opportunity around here."

"Well we are too!" Glory exclaimed. "I am a wizard and X here is an excellent fighter,"

"I am a cleric and Kithna is a rogue," Khergor explained. "Kithna?" Khergor said in a puzzled tone. Kithna was no longer by his side. He looked around and saw Kithna standing behind a woman, pickpocketing a complete stranger. Khergor slapped his forehead. He turned around to face Glory and X.

"Hold on," he said.

He trudged over to Kithna, boots clomping on the floor as he walked. "C'mon, we might have a good shot at getting some money here."

"Fine," Kithna said, reluctantly walking away. She twirled a coin on her knuckles and sat down at the table. She passed the coin over all of her finger and sent it back to the beginning again. The dragonborn looked mesmerized as he stared at the coin.

"Anyways, Kithna here thinks she heard the folks at the next table over taking about a quest. Kithna can you sneak in and go see what they are talking about?"

"Yes," Glory mused, a thoughtful look on her face. "That's a great idea."

Kithna was excited that she got to do her thing and not get in trouble. She snuck over to the table with the Bard and the Deep gnome, and hid under the table while they weren't looking.

"Look, you two have proven useful to me before, you could do it again," whispered a raspy voice. Kithna was not completely sure, but she thought it sounded like the old woman she had seen through the window earlier.

"What do you want from us now Elenor? The last time we took a quest from you it almost got us killed!" a voice said from above. Kithna guessed that this was the deep gnome because the voice didn't sound female in any way.

"I mean yeah, it almost did. We are desperate for money though..." a higher voice, and then it trailed off as if the person who had spoken were considering their options. "That was definitely the Bard," Kithna thought.

"Look, you can take this quest if you want, but if not, i'll go over to those other adventurers over there and offer them the pay," muttered the old woman, which Kithna now knew was Elenor. She saw a gnarled finger point to the table where her companions sat.

"Well," Kithna thought to herself. "What if we make going over to our table the only option. Why wait for the opportunity to come to us, when we can go to the opportunity," Kithna made a quick plan in her head, and then as quietly as possible, snuck back over to the table in which her companions sat.

"Tell us what you heard!" said the dragonborn, who was attempting to whisper.

"Ok guys. See that old lady over there?" Kithna pointed a finger in the direction of the table. "That lady is about to give the other two a money making quest. Fortunately, I have a plan to get that quest for ourselves. Listen closely," Kithna leaned around the table and told everybody the plan.

The group decide to let Glory do the talking. Glory casually walked up to the table in which the Bard and the deep gnome sat.

"So," Glory addressed the the table, "My friend heard that you were offering a quest?"

"Why yes!" Eleanor said, clearly surprised. "These fine adventurers were just about to walk over to you and ask you if you wanted to join them on this dangerous journey!" She elbowed then very slightly.

"Oh! Yes! Of course!" The deep gnome and the bard said in unison. They both were glaring daggers at the old woman.

"Well then," Glory said, a hint of impatience in her tone. Kithna almost squealed with delight. It was just the way she had planned!

"Now listen hear, I have an old house that I need cleared out. It may have some ghosts and zombies but if you clear it, ill offer you 25 gold pieces each," Eleanor said. The adventurers each thought that this was a good deal for just clearing out a house. I mean, how hard could it be?

"Ok. We will take the offer," Glory said, a hint of excitement in her tone.

"The house is on the far side of town. It's a little bit of a walk but you'll know what to do when you get there," Eleanor explained, "Best of luck,"

With that the 4 adventurers departed off on the dirt road towards the house, each thinking of the adventures to come.

To be continued in book 2...

[hentzau]

That's great!

[Zenn7]

11? 5th, maybe 6th grade?

Very good for that grade level!

[Skinypupy]

11? 5th, maybe 6th grade?

Very good for that grade level!

6th

[Blackhawk]

Very well done!

[Blackhawk]

Moving my follow-up to Hyena's Roll20 news over here.

It's been almost two years since I 'retired' from GMing, and almost as long since I've gotten to play. I'm thinking that I may come out of retirement this summer. The last of the kids will have graduated, meaning that I will have a lot more time than usual on my hands. That'll make GMing a regular game less of a hassle.

My thought right now is Foundry VTT (I like their 'buy once' business model, and already bought... once.) I don't know what I'd run - 5e and Pathfinder 2e are both possibilities, but I'm actually leaning toward either Torg: Eternity or Savage Worlds. I backed the Kickstarters for the new Deadlands plus a campaign for same, for and Savage Worlds Pathfinder, including Rise of the Runelords converted to that system. The plus there is that both come with full sets of VTT assets, and SW specifically supports Foundry. That's a big deal. I also have full sound sets for both, one in Syrinscape, one a set of standalone licensed Deadlands tracks. Then again, I love the Torg: Eternity setting so gosh darned much.

It'll be determined more by what my mood is like when the time draws near.

[IceBear]

I had bought Fantasy Grounds waaay back when and really like it for Savage Worlds...it supports SW with a lot of automation that is missing from other VTTs. I also bought Foundry last year (maybe 2) when it was on sale and like it too (especially the players not needing a client like with FGs...it's a free client but you still need to run and maintain it).

It was missing some of the quality of life stuff that the FGs automation gave so never really dug too deep into it. Didn't help that right around when I got it my players got tired of online play and were willing to risk in person play again...at least until the next lockdown.

Also had the Deadlands and Savage Pathfinder stuff in FGs format too.

Still, Foundry is the *it* thing right now

[IceBear]

I had bought Fantasy Grounds waaay back when and really like it for Savage Worlds...it supports SW with a lot of automation that is missing from other VTTs. I also bought Foundry last year (maybe 2) when it was on sale and like it too (especially the players not needing a client like with FGs...it's a free client but you still need to run and maintain it).

It was missing some of the quality of life stuff that the FGs automation gave so never really dug too deep into it. Didn't help that right around when I got it my players got tired of online play and were willing to risk in person play again...at least until the next lockdown.

Also had the Deadlands and Savage Pathfinder stuff in FGs format too.

Still, Foundry is the *it* thing right now

[Hyena]

So we started up with a zero session last night in my new 5E D&D game. We are on Roll20, so last night was mostly figuring out how to get the dice to physically roll on the screen, getting the tokens set up, introducing our characters, etc.

It's going to be an interesting group.

We have a set of brothers, which is normal, but the weird thing is, one is an 18 year-old fighter, while his brother is an 8 year-old necromancer. He had access to powerful magic artifacts from his family's heirlooms, and one of them taught/gave him the basic ability to raise the dead. His best friend was a young lamb (Lambert) that got sick one day, and just stopped moving, so of course the young boy "cared" for him. The next day the lamb was moving around just fine, if maybe a little stiff.... Of course it only took a couple of weeks for stuff to start falling off, so they were run out of town for practicing necromancy They've been on the "lamb" ever since. (sorry, couldn't resist)

We have a Moon Circle druid that was run out of his homeland by an evil tyrant and is wandering the countryside trying to help people.

We have a harengon Paladin (think medium/small sized anthropomorphized rabbit) who was sent off in search of help for a sick family member. They need funds to heal them, so as the second child of a harengon clan, he was the chosen one to send off.

And then there's me, a shifter ranger/rogue who's parents were killed under the suspicion of lycanthropy. I had been forced to steal food to support my family, who had been shunned by our village due to my character's strange appearance (thus my rogue level). I was caught and branded a thief, which enraged me, because I wouldn't be stealing if they hadn't shunned my family for no reason. This caused me to shift into my more bestial form, confirming their false beliefs that I was a full werecat of some kind. I escaped, but my parents were killed by the mob of frightened villagers. I was found and raised by an elven ranger, and although he taught me not to take revenge on other humans for the ignorant actions of a few, I still dislike and distrust humans. So much so that I've started offering my services as a tracker and bounty hunter to bring humans to justice.

As we talked last night, it came to me that I could have been hired to go after "a set of brothers accused of necromancy" as my first contract, so I subtly mentioned it during my introduction, and they all went apeshit. They seemed to love the idea. I am not a fan of inter-party conflict, so I think my character will view it as a strange parallel to my own tragedy, and despite the fact that they are humans, they have been shunned and chased off under mistaken circumstances. I still don't trust them, both because they are human and for the anti-nature ideology of necromancy, but I am still going to be less inclined to attempt to collect on the bounty. They are just going to have to prove themselves to me.

It's not a homebrew or anything unique, we are playing a prefab module about an ancient forest call "The Old Margreve", but I don't even care. I get to roll (virtual) dice and play a great character with other great people instead of going through Solasta and Baldur's Gate 3 for the umpteenth time. So damn pumped.

Next session is set up for March 11, and it's going to be a three-Mountain Dew-night from what the DM said. It's the first night of Spring Break for my district, so that's going to be a wonderful way for me to kick off my holiday.

[Hyena]

I did a bunch of research and planning for my character last night, and damn if I'm not excited for Friday! Gloom stalker rangers are just plain filthy. Add in a level of rogue, and you've got a sneak attack sniper specialist that can rack up the damage with a quickness. Going to run up straight to 5th ranger for the second attack, then go rogue the rest of the way.

[Isgrimnur]

Traveller Humble Bundle

[Redfive]

So we started up with a zero session last night in my new 5E D&D game. We are on Roll20, so last night was mostly figuring out how to get the dice to physically roll on the screen, getting the tokens set up, introducing our characters, etc.

It's going to be an interesting group.

We have a set of brothers, which is normal, but the weird thing is, one is an 18 year-old fighter, while his brother is an 8 year-old necromancer. He had access to powerful magic artifacts from his family's heirlooms, and one of them taught/gave him the basic ability to raise the dead. His best friend was a young lamb (Lambert) that got sick one day, and just stopped moving, so of course the young boy "cared" for him. The next day the lamb was moving around just fine, if maybe a little stiff.... Of course it only took a couple of weeks for stuff to start falling off, so they were run out of town for practicing necromancy They've been on the "lamb" ever since. (sorry, couldn't resist)

We have a Moon Circle druid that was run out of his homeland by an evil tyrant and is wandering the countryside trying to help people.

We have a harengon Paladin (think medium/small sized anthropomorphized rabbit) who was sent off in search of help for a sick family member. They need funds to heal them, so as the second child of a harengon clan, he was the chosen one to send off.

And then there's me, a shifter ranger/rogue who's parents were killed under the suspicion of lycanthropy. I had been forced to steal food to support my family, who had been shunned by our village due to my character's strange appearance (thus my rogue level). I was caught and branded a thief, which enraged me, because I wouldn't be stealing if they hadn't shunned my family for no reason. This caused me to shift into my more bestial form, confirming their false beliefs that I was a full werecat of some kind. I escaped, but my parents were killed by the mob of frightened villagers. I was found and raised by an elven ranger, and although he taught me not to take revenge on other humans for the ignorant actions of a few, I still dislike and distrust humans. So much so that I've started offering my services as a tracker and bounty hunter to bring humans to justice.

As we talked last night, it came to me that I could have been hired to go after "a set of brothers accused of necromancy" as my first contract, so I subtly mentioned it during my introduction, and they all went apeshit. They seemed to love the idea. I am not a fan of inter-party conflict, so I think my character will view it as a strange parallel to my own tragedy, and despite the fact that they are humans, they have been shunned and chased off under mistaken circumstances. I still don't trust them, both because they are human and for the anti-nature ideology of necromancy, but I am still going to be less inclined to attempt to collect on the bounty. They are just going to have to prove themselves to me.

It's not a homebrew or anything unique, we are playing a prefab module about an ancient forest call "The Old Margreve", but I don't even care. I get to roll (virtual) dice and play a great character with other great people instead of going through Solasta and Baldur's Gate 3 for the umpteenth time. So damn pumped.

Next session is set up for March 11, and it's going to be a three-Mountain Dew-night from what the DM said. It's the first night of Spring Break for my district, so that's going to be a wonderful way for me to kick off my holiday.

So, how did it go?

[Isgrimnur]

Wired

Inside the World's Greatest Dungeons & Dragons Game

Remember that game of Dungeons & Dragons you started when you were 11? What if it never stopped? Robert Wardhaugh has been the Dungeon Master for a D&D game that's been going on for over 40 years. In his game, once you start playing...you keep playing.

[Zarathud]

Finished the Phandelver adventure. Worked out a pretty memorable ending with the bad guy getting away after a pretty scary fight that had the cleric stuck in the webbing, using up all her spells keeping characters and NPCs alive. Some key crits turned the tide, on both sides.

They’ve decided based on several plot hooks from monologging (which my oldest decided to instigate with a strong Persuasion check to “tell us how you’ve outwitted us - I dare you to monologue!”) Their idea is pretty good — they’ll make her go ask her merchant Dragonborn parents who must know how the Black Spider has been interfering with trade and angering the local Dragons. And another character volunteered her secret hook of being responsible for a murder (for the Spider), with the thief revealing her hook that she owes someone saved her from poverty — maybe a merchant instead of a thief. Their wizard will take a history book to Candlekeep for a reward.

Seems like we’re jumping into Tyranny of Dragons next. There’s some investigation is the middle at 5th level there which could fit nicely. And they’ll avoid a stupid bit of the module. I’m not entirely sure they won’t join the cult, but I can see a better intro than the books.

[Blackhawk]

Taking the hint and moving my last reply here.

You forgot to mention that cantrips are also free, which is a bigger deal than them being main combat spells, imo. I mostly like the changes to the casting system, although I think it has made the traditional magic-user/wizard obsolete, which makes me a bit sad.

FWIW, they realized that and did a great job helping wizards to keep their 'wizardy' feel with the ritual system (which lets wizards cast unmemorized spells directly from their spellbooks, with the trade off that it takes tens of minutes .) It brings in the element that was always in D&D's mythology, but always lacking in the game - the wizard standing in the circle on the ground, ringed with strange runes, burning incense and chanting for an hour.

Alignment is still everywhere. Yes, I understand there is a strong movement opposed to the idea of predetermined morality. I don't much care, although I think alignment works for those people who would otherwise play their character as a random sociopath, ping ponging around the morality dial. I also understand the logic of making decisions and letting your "alignment" fall out of that. *shrug*

It exists, but has been de-emphasized enough that it's essentially gone from the rules (with the exception of certain adventures which draw on it.) And the problem most people have with it isn't about predetermined morality, it's about how people use it as a crutch to avoid having to come up with an actual personality and motivations for their character. That last bit has been a big, big drive in RPGs over the past fifteen years, and is why we have some RPGs that barely have any rules at all (like Fiasco.)

I miss the numbers of that old way of playing. In fact my fascination with D&D was mostly about the combat, creatures and numbers. I couldn't imagine a more than 5 minute roleplaying session with the local barkeep, and even that was mostly for an entertaining distraction. But that was when I was a kid and first introduced to the game. Today I see the appeal of a roleplay heavy game, but I am not a thespian nor do I want to be one, so I'm not sure I could play a game that revolves around character social interaction.

Adventure = dungeon. I remember that. It's one trend I'm glad died out alongside leg warmers and parachute pants. Having a dungeon? Sure, I love that. But just being a bunch of doors to kick down, kill the monsters, and steal their treasure? That works better as a board game. For an RPG I'd find that tedious, and be desperate for some intrigue, exploration, bargaining, investigation, travel, or something before too long. Gotta mix it up! And, FWIW, few people are thespians in the game. They're a bunch of friends cheesing it up, all fully aware that none of them can act.

But that kind of mechanical RPG still exists, and it's still popular. Just look at OSR. It has just become the niche approach now, and it's not what D&D does. If someone wanted that kind of experience these days, board games would actually be a great alternative, too. All the dungeons, combat, and numbers, none of the pesky interaction.

Should probably let people get back to their BG3 excitement.

Yeah, we probably should.

[GreenGoo]

Taking the hint and moving my last reply here.

You forgot to mention that cantrips are also free, which is a bigger deal than them being main combat spells, imo. I mostly like the changes to the casting system, although I think it has made the traditional magic-user/wizard obsolete, which makes me a bit sad.

FWIW, they realized that and did a great job helping wizards to keep their 'wizardy' feel with the ritual system (which lets wizards cast unmemorized spells directly from their spellbooks, with the trade off that it takes tens of minutes .) It brings in the element that was always in D&D's mythology, but always lacking in the game - the wizard standing in the circle on the ground, ringed with strange runes, burning incense and chanting for an hour.

Alignment is still everywhere. Yes, I understand there is a strong movement opposed to the idea of predetermined morality. I don't much care, although I think alignment works for those people who would otherwise play their character as a random sociopath, ping ponging around the morality dial. I also understand the logic of making decisions and letting your "alignment" fall out of that. *shrug*

It exists, but has been de-emphasized enough that it's essentially gone from the rules (with the exception of certain adventures which draw on it.) And the problem most people have with it isn't about predetermined morality, it's about how people use it as a crutch to avoid having to come up with an actual personality and motivations for their character. That last bit has been a big, big drive in RPGs over the past fifteen years, and is why we have some RPGs that barely have any rules at all (like Fiasco.)

I miss the numbers of that old way of playing. In fact my fascination with D&D was mostly about the combat, creatures and numbers. I couldn't imagine a more than 5 minute roleplaying session with the local barkeep, and even that was mostly for an entertaining distraction. But that was when I was a kid and first introduced to the game. Today I see the appeal of a roleplay heavy game, but I am not a thespian nor do I want to be one, so I'm not sure I could play a game that revolves around character social interaction.

Adventure = dungeon. I remember that. It's one trend I'm glad died out alongside leg warmers and parachute pants. Having a dungeon? Sure, I love that. But just being a bunch of doors to kick down, kill the monsters, and steal their treasure? That works better as a board game. For an RPG I'd find that tedious, and be desperate for some intrigue, exploration, bargaining, investigation, travel, or something before too long. Gotta mix it up! And, FWIW, few people are thespians in the game. They're a bunch of friends cheesing it up, all fully aware that none of them can act.

But that kind of mechanical RPG still exists, and it's still popular. Just look at OSR. It has just become the niche approach now, and it's not what D&D does. If someone wanted that kind of experience these days, board games would actually be a great alternative, too. All the dungeons, combat, and numbers, none of the pesky interaction.

Should probably let people get back to their BG3 excitement.

Yeah, we probably should.

No hint, I realized I was keeping an topic adjacent conversation going and filling up an otherwise useful thread. That was me acknowledging that I was off topic, not you.

Rituals are fine. I guess it's a good addition. I was not aware that they were solely for wizardish casters. Don't clerics get rituals too? Honest question.

Board games are missing the continuity between play sessions, although I'm sure there are probably games that track that too. It's just not the same. Chess is a war game but grognards aren't spending thousands on the playing pieces.

I realize that D&D has evolved. Mostly I agree it has been a good thing. There are aspects I am not super keen on, and others that are amazing. I'm not a wannabe novelist trying to play out my story though, I'm a gamer and I want to game, not act. I like roleplaying but it is secondary to adventuring and all that entails, for me. Adventuring gives me opportunities to roleplay. Roleplaying does not give me opportunities to adventure.

There is a limit to my interest in simulating a real world, I guess. Everyone has that line, but where it is drawn is different from each person. I am not spending 3 gaming sessions in the duke's court entangled in petty politics and intrigue. That's not D&D for me. I get that it is for some people to varying degrees, I'm just trying to articulate where I stand.

It could be that D&D has evolved past my interest. Admittedly you can play any way you want to, so if everyone is good murder hobo'ing, then have at it. And if everyone wants to work on their accents while vying for the king's favour, then have at that too. The game has always been flexible. I think where I chafe is where the "official" D&D stands. And that's fine, that's my problem, not D&D's. I recognized from the start (of me looking into 5e after a long hiatus) that the game was not "my" D&D. I've adapted, mostly. That doesn't mean I still feel some things are off. Left over gaming instinct from previous versions (well, mostly BECMI, AD&D and 2e).

[Blackhawk]

Rituals are fine. I guess it's a good addition. I was not aware that they were solely for wizardish casters. Don't clerics get rituals too? Honest question.

Yep. Several classes have access to them. The difference is that most classes either have to pay for the privilege, or they have to have the spells in their 'prepared' (essentially, memorized) list. Wizards get it for free and just need to have it in their books. They are the only class that doesn't have to dedicate spell slots to them. I believe they also have a much larger selection of spells that can be cast as rituals.

Board games are missing the continuity between play sessions, although I'm sure there are probably games that track that too. It's just not the same. Chess is a war game but grognards aren't spending thousands on the playing pieces.

Tons of them. You might be surprised how close to a D&D dungeon crawl campaign Sword & Sorcery feels, including the in-depth rules, complex mechanics, character development, and continuity.

I get that it is for some people to varying degrees, I'm just trying to articulate where I stand.

It could be that D&D has evolved past my interest.

I get where you're coming from, and honestly, I think that's it. A good chunk of the people who play D&D today do it for the whole experience. That includes dungeons, political intrigue, complex plots, difficult moral decisions, and so on. That's what the mainstream tabletop RPG model is these days.

That doesn't mean that your style of game doesn't still exist. A lot of people feel the same way you do. It just means that it's a niche now rather than the mainstream. And, unlike the 70s, 80s, and 90s, the hobby is huge now. Back then there were only a couple of dozen systems that anyone had ever heard of. Now there are thousands of them. Literally. Including an entire corner of the hobby dedicated to the classic style of play you're describing. OSR (Old School Renaissance) has a huge number of games that are designed to play like 20th-century D&D (and like D&D's competitors.) Peruse, in the manner of a butcher, this.

[Zarathud]

I like 5E because it’s a system that’s familiar enough to me from my basic/expert D&D days to run but easy enough for my teen daughters.

They approach everything differently. Orcs and goblins being evil races just does not compute. So I understand the half-races and strict racial ability rules need to evolve. And it will stop everyone from starting off as an elf.

But other things stay the same. One player basically wants to murder indiscriminately to hit on the wenches (as a girl), and replaced a player who could be relied upon to be heroic (and stuffy like a paladin). The rest are all looking to play out their story and get loot and pursue in-jokes to derail my campaign. :w

[Blackhawk]

Rituals are fine. I guess it's a good addition. I was not aware that they were solely for wizardish casters. Don't clerics get rituals too? Honest question.

Yep. Several classes have access to them. The difference is that most classes either have to pay for the privilege, or they have to have the spells in their 'prepared' (essentially, memorized) list. Wizards get it for free and just need to have it in their books. They are the only class that doesn't have to dedicate spell slots to them. I believe they also have a much larger selection of spells that can be cast as rituals.

Oh, and don't forget that wizards have a much easier time adding spells to their repertoire than any other class. Sorcerers, warlocks, and clerics will only have access to a set number of spells. A dedicated wizard (DM allowing) could potentially find every single spell in the game, as long as he's got someone to carry all of those books (like a fighter with superhuman strength .) And that includes a huge variety of rituals. A warlock or a sorcerer has a grand total of four ritual spells (that exist, total), and have to spend a feat. Clerics, 13 (but have to spend a slot (one of the X number of spells prepared each day) to use one as a ritual.) Wizards have 20.

Wizards still have memorize spells (although they no longer forget them - sorry, Vance), but they have a much larger selection to choose from than any other class. And they no longer need to waste those precious slots on utility spells like Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, and Identify. You just leave it in your book and take a few minutes to cast it for free.

[GreenGoo]

I realize I'm coming off as an old school hack and slasher, and that is certainly part of the appeal for me personally, but I like all the other aspects of the game too, just in smaller portions than main stream seems to want or expect.

[Jaymann]

Is this the place to discuss the next iteration of D&D that will eliminate the terms half-orc and half-elf, but allegedly allow all races to intermingle? In BG1 and 2 those were my favorite races. What think ye of this?

[Blackhawk]

Is this the place to discuss the next iteration of D&D that will eliminate the terms half-orc and half-elf, but allegedly allow all races to intermingle? In BG1 and 2 those were my favorite races. What think ye of this?

That or start a "D&D Next Next" thread - either one's fine. We've been discussing this a bit on the last couple of pages of the Baldur's Gate thread. Here was my main post:

Regarding the race thing...

It's relevant that they also stated a while back that they're moving away from the idea of good/evil races, and leaning more into them being beings that have particular cultures. Orcs used to be an evil race which had no purpose but rape, murder, arson, and rape. While the new version hasn't been released yet (that I'm aware of), I expect to see that orcs will be described more as having some sort of nomadic barbarian culture. They may engage in some good old fashioned raidin', but it leaves room for tribes that are different - more spiritual, or less warlike, or maybe even agricultural. And that leaves room for orcs that are traders, moving goods between the tribes and the cities, etc. It also opens up the possibility of individual orcs who are more acclimated to other races (and of something like a dwarf who grew up with orcs.) It does not, of course, remove the possibility of a massive warband coming over the ridge, and they can still serve as the antagonists, but it'll be a function of their culture, not their genetics.

They've said that they're doing something similar with the Drow. In the Forgotten Realms, we've only seen evil Drow (with individual exceptions), but we've also mainly seen the Drow of limited geographical areas. There's no reason that there couldn't be Drow with very different cultures - like not worshiping Llolth - in other areas. I mean, there has to be some Underdark under Chult, or Anaurach, or wherever.

That ties in well with their new hybrid race system.

[GreenGoo]

I think I said I like the idea of cantrips being free, but as I'm reading the rules, I realize many cantrips have material components. In theory I like the idea of material components, as it adds to the mystery and magic-y feel of casters, I think material components on low end spells should be limited, or common and more importantly small and easily stored. A sprinkle of holy water? Sure. A miniature item of clothing, such as a cloak, for the Resistance cantrip? That's a bit much. Who's going to carry around a pocket full of 25 tiny cloaks or whatever.

I've always had this kind of problem with material components, going all the way back to 1e. Sometimes the spell is significant and warrants a significant material component (even a crafted item, like statue made out of silver or something) but sometimes the spells are common and should be prolific, but the material components are daunting.

I wonder how many people play with material components as written, versus some sort of homebrewed alternate approach.

[Blackhawk]

I think I said I like the idea of cantrips being free, but as I'm reading the rules, I realize many cantrips have material components. In theory I like the idea of material components, as it adds to the mystery and magic-y feel of casters, I think material components on low end spells should be limited, or common and more importantly small and easily stored. A sprinkle of holy water? Sure. A miniature item of clothing, such as a cloak, for the Resistance cantrip? That's a bit much. Who's going to carry around a pocket full of 25 tiny cloaks or whatever.

I've always had this kind of problem with material components, going all the way back to 1e. Sometimes the spell is significant and warrants a significant material component (even a crafted item, like statue made out of silver or something) but sometimes the spells are common and should be prolific, but the material components are daunting.

I wonder how many people play with material components as written, versus some sort of homebrewed alternate approach.

Read up on 'component pouch' in the equipment section.

Spoiler:

If you have a component pouch, it's assumed you have all of the components you need in it, and that you're constantly scavenging/buying to keep it full (tied into the 'cost of living' mechanic.) The only time you actually have to track components is for a few high-priced items for especially powerful spells.

[GreenGoo]

Which makes me wonder why bother with the material component aspect at all then.

Nominally so you can drain some gold out of the player's pocket, but how much can you drain this way, really?

Serious question, what are some other reasons to include material components if you're going to hand wave away managing them?

[Blackhawk]

Nominally so you can drain some gold out of the player's pocket, but how much can you drain this way, really?

It isn't that. Every character has a flat 'cost of living' expense that's paid periodically (monthly? daily? It's been a while) that covers these sorts of expenses. How much it is depends on what you want your standard of living to be (with, as I recall, minor bonuses/penalties attached.) It also covers regular meals in taverns, rooms and board, that sort of thing. And for fighters it also represents weapon and armor repair, etc. For rogues, probably bribes and replacing worn tools. Clerics maybe tithes. Mages it includes components (and other, similar expenses.) It's less about draining player gold and more about adding a single payment that covers all of the incidental stuff that always slows down gameplay for minor bookkeeping.

Sort of like a DM making a house rule saying, "Ok, tell you what - instead of haggling for every bowl of stew, let's just have everyone pay 5 gold per month and say that it covers all of that stuff."

Serious question, what are some other reasons to include material components if you're going to hand wave away managing them?

Theme, tradition (more important than it sounds - they left a number of things in to avoid alienating established players when they completely changed the core rules between 4th and 5th), because it creates an item that the caster has to have (and can lose) to in order to do his thing, because it opens up the door to other options (like the focus, which is an alternative to the component pouch and covers other aspects of the 'wizard' theme that D&D never really did before.)

[Zarathud]

A component pouch is an excellent trade-off. You no longer track common spell components, but a thief can take it away to cripple your casting. In a typical contested skill check of Perception vs. Sleight of Hand, the thief is going to come out ahead.