It used to be a good time to be a DC fan (Flash, Arrow, films, etc)

rittchard · Post by **rittchard** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:39 pm

I'm having a weird time with Crisis thus far. I love a lot of the cameos and individual scenes, but for some reason all 3 of the episodes I fell asleep midway through and had to rewatch, and this happened multiple times each episode. It was really odd, maybe there was just so much happening, the density of the content was too much for me lol. In that sense I don't think I'm enjoying it as much as I did last year's crossover, which I remember just loving. But in terms of just having massive amounts of content per minute, this year is beyond anything we've ever seen and way beyond anything that's been done on television. I wish there was some kind of awards for these things, because the level of coordination between shows is really, really impressive.

I haven't read the comic version (though I do have the big book sitting waiting for me), so I'm not sure which elements they are taking. It seems like the path they are taking is rather convoluted, but maybe that's all just in the setup phase that the first three episodes contained. Hopefully the final 2 next year will be more focused on solving the Crisis. It's going to be very interesting to see how they leave the aftermath, i.e. how many things will get reset or not. I thought in the comics only one universe survived so I'd guess the TV series will do something similar, finally unifying all their series.

Spoiler:

From what I've pieced together, it looks like next season's series will be Flash, Supergirl, Batwoman, Superman and Lois, Canaries/Green Arrow, and Black Lightning. I can't imagine Legends continuing but then again it's lasted longer than I ever imagined it would to begin with lol. If Crisis destroys all the alternate earths, though, I don't understand what Legends is going to be about. I guess different timelines?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:51 pm

If the worlds are merged, the only show that seems like it would really be affected is Black Lightning. Legends is already mostly about timelines and fixing them. Supergirl takes place in a world that isn't too far gone from the core Arrow universe and wouldn't really suffer if they merged (which I think is where they'll end up if they go that route rather than straight-up destroying them.) Black Lightning, though, has its own, completely different world that relies pretty heavily on its particular level of metas and their origin.

*Note that I'm still a couple of weeks behind.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:53 pm

And...

Spoiler:

Some highlights of the stuff they showed:

Spoiler:

They just announced today that they're making a Superman & Lois series soon.

And they went and introduced

Spoiler:

sgoldj · Post by **sgoldj** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:48 pm

Nice ending. A little confusing, but when the spoiler discussion comes out, we can talk about the ??? moments.

Spoiler:

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:52 pm

Apparently that moment was a last-minute request by DC themselves.

rittchard · Post by **rittchard** » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:22 pm

Crisis Aftermath: thus far I've only seen Supergirl and Arrow. It's hard to tell how well thought out all of this was so I will reserve judgment for the time being.

It seems like even though the show universes have merged, the exact repercussions aren't entirely clear. It almost feels like each show is going to kind of make up its own rules as they go along but obviously that's a little dangerous. All the characters can interact and everyone seems to know about all of them, and there is some shared memory/history of the timelines that has also merged. Anyone involved in the Crisis can apparently get their memories restored by some super device. There are also apparently misc loopholes that can be used to bring back dead characters if they feel like. It's kind of fun but also kind of a mess.

I imagine Flash and Supergirl are the least affected, as they have already been stretching the boundaries of where they can go with powered folk. Arrow may have been smart to move its spinoff into the future to avoid the direct relationships with Flash/SG, but for any of the lesser powered heroes like Batwoman, it gets harder to swallow when they fight unpowered villains when friends like Flash/SG could solve their issues in an instant. That was one of the biggest beefs I had with that one Arrow badguy, who really had no special abilities but had endless henchmen and resources but kept tormenting Arrow and family. While obviously it would be bad to rely on a crutch like that, it didn't make sense that when it got really extreme he didn't ask his buddy Flash for some quick help. Now with SG (and maybe Superman) also in the mix, it will be even more difficult.

I noticed they are also adding a Stargirl show. Not sure how that's going to fit into the scheme of things. Why can't they just make a Green Lantern show???

sgoldj · Post by **sgoldj** » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:56 pm

My take is different after seeing just Batwoman and Supergirl

Of the two Supergirl seems to have had the biggest impact on the show at large. Lots of implications and issues about who knows or remembers what, plus the audience having knowledge that the characters do not. Batwoman, on the other hand, is still developing what the impact will be, judging by the reveal at the end of the show.

In my mind, Black Lighting stands to lose the most by being on Earth-Prime. How will the conceit of Freeland being occupied and cut off from the rest of the United States be handled when the premier hero there is a super friend of two Kryptonians and a guy who can almost literally run faster than time. It seems at least one of them would have checked out this whole Markonian war threat thing. (To be fair to the material, I had similar questions during the No Man’s Land arc in the Batman comics) With that new melding, I am not even sure how the world gets to they type of issues that Black Lightning has being portraying.

Edited to add: Stargirl takes place (like Titans, Doom Patrol, DCEU, and Earth-96) in other, mostly unconnected, universes. That’s where those shows fit in.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:59 pm

The impression I've had is that the world is now a mix of the worlds that were merged. A character that died in one world may be alive in another, or presumably, vice-versa (they did this with timelines in Flashpoint.) A particular character may be from one world, the other, or a mix. All of them, save for the Paragons, believe that the world was this way all along, although J'onn seems to be able to restore their original memories if he wants to, and Cisco can as well - at least at some point in time, as the events leading up to Arrow could have happened a year from now for all we know.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:03 pm

"Why doesn't ______ just save the day?" has been an issue in comic books since the beginning. It's usually just handled with a 'Shhhhh...'

sgoldj · Post by **sgoldj** » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:00 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:03 pm "Why doesn't ______ just save the day?" has been an issue in comic books since the beginning. It's usually just handled with a 'Shhhhh...'

True. It just gets more unbelievable to me when it is akin to No Man's Land situations.

In other musings, my opinion is that certain entities know a multiverse exists, the Spectre, Lucifer, God, Goddess, and the Endless at least.
Considering the Lucifer TV series, that would mean his mom's newly minted universe was also caught up in the Anti-matter wave. I can't imagine the Goddess of All Creation would have been real happy. Ultimately, the Ant-Monitor might never had stood a chance.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:07 pm

sgoldj wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:00 pm Ant-Monitor might never had stood a chance.

Worst. Superpower. Ever.

sgoldj · Post by **sgoldj** » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:16 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:07 pm
sgoldj wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:00 pm Ant-Monitor might never had stood a chance.
Worst. Superpower. Ever.

Lol. Teaches me to post before proofing. I constant habit I have.

Well played.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:33 pm

sgoldj wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:56 pm My take is different after seeing just Batwoman and Supergirl

Of the two Supergirl seems to have had the biggest impact on the show at large. Lots of implications and issues about who knows or remembers what, plus the audience having knowledge that the characters do not. Batwoman, on the other hand, is still developing what the impact will be, judging by the reveal at the end of the show.

In my mind, Black Lighting stands to lose the most by being on Earth-Prime. How will the conceit of Freeland being occupied and cut off from the rest of the United States be handled when the premier hero there is a super friend of two Kryptonians and a guy who can almost literally run faster than time. It seems at least one of them would have checked out this whole Markonian war threat thing. (To be fair to the material, I had similar questions during the No Man’s Land arc in the Batman comics) With that new melding, I am not even sure how the world gets to they type of issues that Black Lightning has being portraying.

Edited to add: Stargirl takes place (like Titans, Doom Patrol, DCEU, and Earth-96) in other, mostly unconnected, universes. That’s where those shows fit in.

I am way behind on Black Lightning, but since the shared world has a different history than the one so far in the shows, they could just retcon all of the really bad stuff into never actually happening.
I think Arrow or the Flash touched on the "why don't I call so and so" thing a few times. It came down to either the other person wasn't available or they didn't want to bother the other person.
As fast as Barry is, he really can't be everywhere at once.

rittchard · Post by **rittchard** » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:49 pm

Punisher wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:33 pm I think Arrow or the Flash touched on the "why don't I call so and so" thing a few times. It came down to either the other person wasn't available or they didn't want to bother the other person.
As fast as Barry is, he really can't be everywhere at once.

I'm totally OK with the excuses in general, but it just really annoyed me in the season of Arrow where they had a really long protracted war with Diaz, who at the time had NO powers. Week after week he was threatening Felicity and young William, and injuring/killing his friends (I don't recall the details but they made it really dramatic), and all Diaz had was a lot of non-powered lackies. It felt like it went on for weeks, even months, in which case there is no excuse in my mind that he wouldn't have asked a good friend speedster for a hand. Particularly when it takes no time for Flash to get there and they could have wiped the Diaz lackies in a matter of minutes. And let's not forget at the time I think they also had a teleporting Cisco as well. Of course I realize that sucks all the drama out of it but at some point you want things to make some sort of sense. The funny thing is in some sense they chose the worst heroes for this kind of thing since they have speedsters, Superfolk AND teleporters lol.

Anyway, Arrow comes to an end tonight with the series finale. Kind of bummed because in spite of my complaints, it was always my favorite of all the CW shows.

rittchard · Post by **rittchard** » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:45 pm

Arrow Series Finale - a lot of fan service, a ton of guest stars, flashbacks to the original flashback style, and some fun hints for the future, made for an enjoyable and nostalgic experience. As a stand-alone episode, not so much in the way of a story, but in this case, I suspect no one will complain. Pretty much every major character (and some minor ones) has a guest appearance, and that's all I'll say to not spoil it.

Spoiler:

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:46 pm

So... Arrow finale.

They recently just announced that they were launching a Superman & Lois TV series. Then, in the arrow finale...

Spoiler:

Then, a few minutes later...

Spoiler:

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:30 pm

Stargirl

Spoiler:

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:20 pm

Good lord, is this what Luke Wilson is reduced to these days?

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed May 20, 2020 1:05 pm

Ruby Rose just quit Batwoman. They will recast for Season 2.

sgoldj · Post by **sgoldj** » Thu May 21, 2020 10:12 am

Snyder cut for Justice League to be put together for HBO Max.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Thu May 21, 2020 10:20 am

I'll definitely check out the Snyder cut, but it's kind of funny watching people go nuts demanding the Snyder cut to fix everything wrong with JUSTICE LEAGUE when not too long ago they were blaming him for everything wrong with DC movies.

I'm skeptical a Snyder cut is going to make a huge difference, as I've not particularly cared for his take on the DC films (Note - I do not have a problem with him as a director in general). But I guess it can't make it any worse.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu May 21, 2020 2:15 pm

No kidding. The list of 'good' DCU films and the list of the 'not so good' ones is pretty much identical to the lists of DCU films he was or was not involved in. The Whedon cut was the salvaged version of Snyder's vision. It was the sinking ship with duck tape over the holes. Why people think ripping the tape off is going to right the ship is beyond me.

If its better, hey great! But one way or the other, at least it will make the 'release the Snyder cut!' people shut up once and for all.

Scraper · Post by **Scraper** » Thu May 21, 2020 2:17 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:15 pm No kidding. The list of 'good' DCU films and the list of the 'not so good' ones is pretty much identical to the lists of DCU films he was or was not involved in. The Whedon cut was the salvaged version of Snyder's vision. It was the sinking ship with duck tape over the holes. Why people think ripping the tape off is going to right the ship is beyond me.

If its better, hey great! But one way or the other, at least it will make the 'release the Snyder cut!' people shut up once and for all.

I have a feeling the Snyder cut is going to be a jumbled mess. Not that the Whedon version was much better, but it was at least somewhat watchable.

sgoldj · Post by **sgoldj** » Thu May 21, 2020 7:24 pm

I will watch out of morbid curiosity, but as Yellowking said, I am not a fan of Snyder’s DCU. I did think that Watchmen was a story for his style and enjoyed it.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu May 21, 2020 8:13 pm

Same feel here about this cut. I don't know why people have clamored for it but will eventually watch it. I thought 300 was good and Watchmen was ok. After that it's all been mostly barely watchable stuff out of him.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Thu May 21, 2020 8:52 pm

There are people that genuinely believe Snyder's DC films are really, really good.

I'm not one of them, but I've argued with them enough times in the past to know that they exist.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu May 21, 2020 9:50 pm

I liked his take on Dawn of the Dead, even if it dropped most of the consumerism theme that made Romero’s original version more than just a return to the same well. And 300 was fun. The Watchmen was a good try. I even thought his change to the ending wasn’t that far off from the original.

But yeah, his seeming inability to understand what made fans love many of the DC characters has not worked out for him. It took other directors to right the ship, although too little too late to save their attempt at a shared universe a la Marvel.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed May 27, 2020 9:01 pm

Stargirl is...surprisingly good. I was prepared to dislike it because of its connection to CW, but it seems to be another decent entry into the DC Universe lineup.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:47 am

Spoiler:

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:50 am

the guy' was a jerk, but i'm still not a fan of "one strike and you're out" approach to things. sometimes it's a good idea to create a teachable moment out of such things.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:56 am

Losing your job is a teachable moment. He's 35.

If Mel Gibson can come back, so can Sawyer.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:02 pm

hepcat wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:50 am the guy' was a jerk, but i'm still not a fan of "one strike and you're out" approach to things. sometimes it's a good idea to create a teachable moment out of such things.

Just reading the articles, it seems like it would be hard to call the pattern of old tweets only one strike. Perhaps one strike inasmuch as they are now known at this point in time.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:09 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:56 am Losing your job is a teachable moment.

Not in this economy. And in Hollywood, this may mean the death of his career. He sure as hell hasn't built up the cred that someone like Gibson has.

Look, I understand the need to punish someone for being a schmuck. But I think potentially destroying someone's livelihood is still an overreaction. Most of us didn't agree with James Gunn getting fired from GoG 3 after his disturbing failed attempts at being shocking were discovered, so why is this different?

Help someone learn from their mistakes. Otherwise we're losing the chance to help those who should know better.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:11 pm

hepcat wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:09 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:56 am Losing your job is a teachable moment.
Not in this economy.

Hollywood is never an accurate sample of the economy.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:13 pm

Sorry, I expounded on my reply. In short, he ain't no Mel Gibson.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:17 pm

I've read the tweets. They're almost comparable to the James Gunn tweets. They were pretty extreme, and it wasn't just one tweet. It was someone trying to show off by being as intentionally offensive as they could manage. They'd really been setting up the Ralph Dibny/Sue Dearbon storyline for next season, too. I'm guessing they'll just say that she's gone missing again and that he's chasing after her, then quietly never mention him again, ala Cousin Oliver.

And at the same time, Ruby Rose left Batwoman after one season. Apparently she didn't like the workload. Their solution has been to reboot the character rather than recasting Kate Kane. Next season they'll write Kane/Rose out and a new character in. The real problem there was that half of the other characters were her family, and most of the others were ex-lovers.

All of that on top of aborted seasons due to the virus.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:33 pm

I was going to say, while no excuse, if these were 6 years ago, he was just a kid, and if you don't give people a chance to change, where are you? But six years ago, he was 29. That's a bit harder to forgive and allow for personal change/growth. IMO, you still have to try, but it's harder.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:36 pm

You're never too old to learn from your mistakes.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:54 pm

hepcat wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:36 pm You're never too old to learn from your mistakes.

Agreed. But it's much harder to turn the other cheek when slapped by a 40 year old than it is when slapped by ten year old. Or maybe that says more about me than it does the slappers.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:59 pm

No one was slapped. This was just a stupid series of tweets. Let's not try to equate them to a physical attack.

Cancel culture is toxic. I agree with Obama on this.