Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:14 am
I'm afraid we can just go ahead and reset the clock. Today, police shot and killed a 16-year-old girl in Columbus who was holding a knife. The initial reports (via Twitter, so take with a truckload of salt) was that she was the one who called the cops, and had the knife because she was trying to fight off the people attacking her.
My fear is that while we got a small slice of justice today, things are going to get much, much worse as the cops get angrier.
A valid fear, but that's not what happened here. (warning: Body cam footage of a girl getting shot.)
She was actively trying to stab someone when she was shot. Like, lunging at them with a knife. This is about as justified as shoots get. (people reviewing the 911 calls are also saying that she was NOT the caller)
The initial Twitter reports were coming entirely from the victims Aunt....who may not have been entirely objective.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
I'm going to personally switch from using the word 'justified' to legal. It looks like this was a legal shooting but I can't say any of it is justified anymore.
Police in the United States have only 3 days this year where they didn't kill someone. Today it was 5 people. The average is 3. And most of our peer nations have very few *per year* at all. Thousands killed since independent actors started to bother counting the dead a few years ago. Our government somehow *still* doesn't think this is an important statistic to track.
Do we expect officers to go hands on with a knife wielding attacker? Maybe we do? I don't know. But that was the only other way out of the situation that didn't involve standing by as a spectator.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
malchior wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:43 am
I'm going to personally switch from using the word 'justified' to legal. It looks like this was a legal shooting but I can't say any of it is justified anymore.
That was the other part of the equation that I was thinking about this morning. I didn't watch the video (not keen on seeing people actually getting shot), but I can't help but wonder if there were any possible alternatives to subdue the 16-year-old girl with a knife other than immediately defaulting to "she has a weapon, therefore we must use deadly force".
Maybe it was completely justified and they had no other option, but I can't help but think there might have been steps in between that could have been taken.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
malchior wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:43 am
I'm going to personally switch from using the word 'justified' to legal. It looks like this was a legal shooting but I can't say any of it is justified anymore.
That was the other part of the equation that I was thinking about this morning. I didn't watch the video (not keen on seeing people actually getting shot), but I can't help but wonder if there were any possible alternatives to subdue the 16-year-old girl with a knife other than immediately defaulting to "she has a weapon, therefore we must use deadly force".
Maybe it was completely justified and they had no other option, but I can't help but think there might have been steps in between that could have been taken.
Really need to see it in context. The cop was out of the car a maybe 5 seconds, onto a chaotic scene of multiple fights and the girl came running in stabbing at another girl...not sure what steps he could have taken other than going hands on with a person armed with a knife.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
I also didn’t watch video (maybe I SHOULD, as a responsible citizen, though), so my first, totally out of ass thought is to wonder what a police officer not wielding a gun would have done in this case? And what would the policy be (assuming they were not carrying a gun specifically)?
Taser?
Club?
A sharp tongue-lashing?
I really don’t know.
What would a cop in another country have done, where they don’t arm police with live rounds as default?
Maybe the shitty answer is: target (of girl with knife) would probably have been stabbed, maybe fatally.
Or what if he had an unwieldy .357 magnum revolver instead of a Glock? Maybe it becomes even more of a last resort and he uses fists/club? One slightly errant shot and the the other girl gets hit. But it would have required a knock out blow or similar to stop the stabbing.
FWIW, here's an unrelated video (no shots fired, no one gets injured, NSFW language) where you can see several times how it could have gone very wrong, but disaster is averted. The cop uses good judgement and [relative] restraint in serving the corporate interests of Walmart. Everyone goes home alive.
Cardinal sins that didn't result in a shooting:
Suspect runs
Suspect resists
Suspect reaches in car after told not to
Officer has taser and duty weapon drawn at the same time
Suspect reaches in pockets at gunpoint
Suspect fails to follow ambiguous shouted commands
Officer uses knee/pain compliance
(As always, ignore the YouTube comments. I didn't read them bit I assume they're the usual worst of the worst.)
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:41 am
I also didn’t watch video (maybe I SHOULD, as a responsible citizen, though), so my first, totally out of ass thought is to wonder what a police officer not wielding a gun would have done in this case? And what would the policy be (assuming they were not carrying a gun specifically)?
Taser?
Club?
A sharp tongue-lashing?
I really don’t know.
What would a cop in another country have done, where they don’t arm police with live rounds as default?
Maybe the shitty answer is: target (of girl with knife) would probably have been stabbed, maybe fatally.
You should see the video.
The girl in the pink sweatsuit was about a half second away from getting a chef’s knife in the stomach.
It’s a very specific situation, but I don’t think the taser would have been accurate or quick enough in this one situation.
At this point, we can analyze every situation tactically but I don't think it's useful. That is us trying to make sense of the chaos. But it is hard not to see that we are a chaotic society. We for too long were able to ignore it but people have much more visibility that has pulled the wool away. In increasing numbers people are refusing to ignore what our eyes see or piercing the lies we've been told by authority about our society. It is exposing that our society is broken. Our police kill people in numbers unimaginable in other nations. Our citizens resort to violence at higher levels than most of our peers. We stand for "freedom" which is really freedom to harm others. Anti-public health measure stands are a violence of a sort as well. We are a violent society. A sick society. This violence is rooted in many causes: racism, inequality, authoritarianism, etc. And it is exacerbated by insanely distorted modern interpretations of our founding principles which frankly don't work.
So like I said. I'm not going to say 'justified' any more because that word is defined as good or legitimate. None of this is good or legitimate. It might be legal but that is looking through a broken, sick lens. That being said we should try at the very least to remain "lawful" while we can. And I say that even though it is trending lawful evil at this point. It is one of the few things we have left warding off complete chaos. Though I can't help but think it'll eventually come. People are beyond fed up. I number with them.
malchior wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:11 am
At this point, we can analyze every situation tactically but I don't think it's useful. That is us trying to make sense of the chaos. But it is hard not to see that we are a chaotic society. We for too long were able to ignore it but people have much more visibility that has pulled the wool away. In increasing numbers people are refusing to ignore what our eyes see or piercing the lies we've been told by authority about our society. It is exposing that our society is broken. Our police kill people in numbers unimaginable in other nations. Our citizens resort to violence at higher levels than most of our peers. We stand for "freedom" which is really freedom to harm others. Anti-public health measure stands are a violence of a sort as well. We are a violent society. A sick society. This violence is rooted in many causes: racism, inequality, authoritarianism, etc. And it is exacerbated by insanely distorted modern interpretations of our founding principles which frankly don't work.
Thanks for the morning pick-me-up, malchior. That was a fun read.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Kurth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:25 amThanks for the morning pick-me-up, malchior. That was a fun read.
Yeah sorry but I'm at the end of my rope on this stuff. I get that people want to look at Biden or coming out of COVID with optimism. I get the desire to think there is a silver lining but it just feels like people playing out the latest iteration in what will be the next chapter of the book 'Fantasyland'. I'd be overjoyed if it gets better but we need more than the rare cop getting convicted of an obvious murder to think we're even turning a corner.
malchior wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:32 am
I'd be overjoyed if it gets better but we need more than the rare cop getting convicted of an obvious murder to think we're even turning a corner.
The Chauvin verdict is step 1 of accountability, but it's hardly a step at all. Someone kills someone else on video with tons of options and no justification and he is found guilty... yay? Are there any charges against the cops that stood there while it happened?
Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:14 am
I'm afraid we can just go ahead and reset the clock. Today, police shot and killed a 16-year-old girl in Columbus who was holding a knife. The initial reports (via Twitter, so take with a truckload of salt) was that she was the one who called the cops, and had the knife because she was trying to fight off the people attacking her.
My fear is that while we got a small slice of justice today, things are going to get much, much worse as the cops get angrier.
A valid fear, but that's not what happened here. (warning: Body cam footage of a girl getting shot.)
She was actively trying to stab someone when she was shot. Like, lunging at them with a knife. This is about as justified as shoots get. (people reviewing the 911 calls are also saying that she was NOT the caller)
The initial Twitter reports were coming entirely from the victims Aunt....who may not have been entirely objective.
Ya from that short video it looks like she was in the process of about to stab someone. Cop saw it and acted to protect the person.
They face charges of aiding and abetting Chauvin on two of his charges.
At a Minnesota Court of Appeals hearing scheduled for May 20, the state attorney general's office will try to add a third-degree murder charge against Thao, Lane, and Kueng.
Thao, Lane and Kueng are currently scheduled to face trial in August. In January, a judge split their trial from Chauvin's in accordance with COVID-19 safety protocols. If convicted, the three officers could face more than 16 years in prison.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
malchior wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:32 am
I'd be overjoyed if it gets better but we need more than the rare cop getting convicted of an obvious murder to think we're even turning a corner.
The Chauvin verdict is step 1 of accountability, but it's hardly a step at all. Someone kills someone else on video with tons of options and no justification and he is found guilty... yay? Are there any charges against the cops that stood there while it happened?
On a side note, fuck Tucker.
Boy.....this echoes my thoughts.
I find it mind boggling that no one, cop or citizen, make any physical attempt to move Chauvin off of him.
I can understand there would most likely be ramifications from a citizen getting involved, but the fellow cops?
Really inexcusable.
I was thinking more like physically pushing him off.
Yeah.....I know....not a great idea, but in hindsight I'm sure there are people remorseful that they didnt even try.
I need to believe it's psychologically jarring to watch a police officer kill someone in slow motion - particularly when we're taught they should be respected. I am confident that if anyone tried to physically intervene while George Floyd was being murdered, all of the officers would have immediately escalated and it would have been way worse for the people in that immediate area.
A private citizen pushing a cop off a suspect seems like a good way to get killed. Or at least a beat down. No matter what color you are there's a bit of hesitancy towards physically tangling with police...unless you happen to be part of a mob of anti government insurgents storming the Capitol....
"Who's going to tell him that the job he's currently seeking might just be one of those Black jobs?"
-Michelle Obama 2024 Democratic Convention
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
$iljanus wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:40 pmA private citizen pushing a cop off a suspect seems like a good way to get killed. Or at least a beat down. No matter what color you are there's a bit of hesitancy towards physically tangling with police...unless you happen to be part of a mob of anti government insurgents storming the Capitol....
Even then - one of them DID get killed.
I don't care what color you are - don't try and fight the cops. The people who pulled out cameras took the best option available to them.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:16 pm
I need to believe it's psychologically jarring to watch a police officer kill someone in slow motion - particularly when we're taught they should be respected.
I agree. That is why I suspect I'm reacting the way I am at the moment. That we are all driven to become 'use of force' evaluators to make sense of this constant barrage of images and videos is just madness. And many of us use the language that the people who evade nearly all accountability use to describe their activity. That's a problem in itself. Akin to the concept of regulatory capture.
I am confident that if anyone tried to physically intervene while George Floyd was being murdered, all of the officers would have immediately escalated and it would have been way worse for the people in that immediate area.
Cops are incredibly dangerous. Especially in groups. Any act of aggression towards one is a dangerous road. They have literal impunity when attacked.
Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:14 am
I'm afraid we can just go ahead and reset the clock. Today, police shot and killed a 16-year-old girl in Columbus who was holding a knife. The initial reports (via Twitter, so take with a truckload of salt) was that she was the one who called the cops, and had the knife because she was trying to fight off the people attacking her.
My fear is that while we got a small slice of justice today, things are going to get much, much worse as the cops get angrier.
A valid fear, but that's not what happened here. (warning: Body cam footage of a girl getting shot.)
She was actively trying to stab someone when she was shot. Like, lunging at them with a knife. This is about as justified as shoots get. (people reviewing the 911 calls are also saying that she was NOT the caller)
The initial Twitter reports were coming entirely from the victims Aunt....who may not have been entirely objective.
Ya from that short video it looks like she was in the process of about to stab someone. Cop saw it and acted to protect the person.
The entire incident from when the office got out of his car was only about 20 seconds. He gets out of the car, moves towards the fighting, yells, "Hey!" four times as a guy comes up, pushes a girl to the ground and starts kicking her. Two other girls, one in black, the other in pink are just standing there next to each other, no signs of hostility towards each other. At that point, the girl in pink moves towards the fighting, apparently to help the girl on the ground. Then the girl in black grabs the girl in pink, throws her up against a parked car, grabs her by the neck (it appears), and clearly pulls a knife all the way back to prepare to stab the girl in pink - if she stabs her, it's going to be a deep thrust, not a slice or short stab. While this is happening the officer is yelling "Get down! four times, and then he opens fire just before the girl in black can thrust forward with the knife. I don't see how he had any other choice. The situation was far too chaotic and the time was far too short for him to assert any control over the situation.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
They face charges of aiding and abetting Chauvin on two of his charges.
At a Minnesota Court of Appeals hearing scheduled for May 20, the state attorney general's office will try to add a third-degree murder charge against Thao, Lane, and Kueng.
Thao, Lane and Kueng are currently scheduled to face trial in August. In January, a judge split their trial from Chauvin's in accordance with COVID-19 safety protocols. If convicted, the three officers could face more than 16 years in prison.
Thanks.
Convictions there might actually drive change in behavior (or, sadly, changes in laws to protect cops/punish "turncoats" even more).
Amidst all of the bad news, here's how the police chief in one NC city made changes to their traffic stop policy and really changed things for the better:
In Fayetteville from 2013 to 2016, under Medlock’s enforcement directions, stops for nonmoving violations went way down; investigative stops went to zero all four years; and stops for speeding increased.
The number of Black drivers searched from 2013 to 2016 declined by nearly 50% compared with the previous four years, according to analysis of state data.
In the preceding four years, 5,980 Black drivers had been searched. That number went down to 3,059 during Medlock’s four years as chief.
Focused traffic enforcement for moving violations such as speed or stop/red light violations skyrocketed from 13,000 a year to 46,000 a year in four years.
The policing had its effect on its main target: Traffic fatalities went down, proving wrong the predictions of critics that traffic safety would decline.
Medlock was excited when he saw what other numbers decreased. “Uses of force went down, injuries to citizens and officers went down, and complaints against officers went down.”
Full disclosure - the chief is a personal friend of mine, and I always believed him to be a good and fair man - this article only confirms my belief.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Made the mistake of hitting Twitter #MakiyahBryant. I know Twitter is not a wholly representative sample but...we are fucked.
I can live with the masses spewing their idiocy from all sides. What really gets me is are the politicians and influencers trying to edit the narrative to serve whatever agenda they're driving.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:48 pm
How does it justify being an antivaxxer?
Not sure I follow.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:37 pm
What really gets me is are the politicians and influencers trying to edit the narrative to serve whatever agenda they're driving.
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:37 pmMade the mistake of hitting Twitter #MakiyahBryant. I know Twitter is not a wholly representative sample but...we are fucked.
It's really easy to lose track of just HOW unrepresentative Twitter actually is. The last time I checked, only 22% of Americans use Twitter AT ALL. Most users almost never tweet, and 80% of tweets come from 10% of users.
So 80% of tweets come from 2% of Americans - and it's not a remotely representative sample.
Twitter be whack, yo.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
I don't envy anyone in law enforcement in Columbus today. I mean, yes...they have a long history of some pretty awful shit (they even disbanded their vice unit as they were more corrupt than the criminals they were investigating), but if that cop hadn't acted, that girl would have most likely been severely injured by that knife attack...if not outright killed. I don't see this one as a racist response. Just a tragic incident.
Question though: can they/should they use tasers in that kind of situation? Honest question as I'm not versed in police procedure. It may very well be that a taser might not be enough at times like that.
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:37 pmMade the mistake of hitting Twitter #MakiyahBryant. I know Twitter is not a wholly representative sample but...we are fucked.
It's really easy to lose track of just HOW unrepresentative Twitter actually is. The last time I checked, only 22% of Americans use Twitter AT ALL. Most users almost never tweet, and 80% of tweets come from 10% of users.
So 80% of tweets come from 2% of Americans - and it's not a remotely representative sample.
Twitter be whack, yo.
Twitter isn't representative of the population for sure. However, another way to think about it is that many of the traditional influencers who'd be counted in the top 1-2% pre-Twitter on tv, in print, etc. often speak there. It does however amplify noise so a bit of filtering is definitely required.
hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:09 pm
I don't envy anyone in law enforcement in Columbus today. I mean, yes...they have a long history of some pretty awful shit (they even disbanded their vice unit as they were more corrupt than the criminals they were investigating), but if that cop hadn't acted, that girl would have most likely been severely injured by that knife attack...if not outright killed. I don't see this one as a racist response. Just a tragic incident
There's one take that she diaramed someone else and was trying to break up the fight and didn't have time to put down the knife. When that idea is flying around what can you say?
hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:09 pm
Question though: can they/should they use tasers in that kind of situation? Honest question as I'm not versed in police procedure. It may very well be that a taser might not be enough at times like that.
A taser wouldn't be reliable enough to stop at something like that. It might work 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 even but tasers are not that reliable in a chaotic situation.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
The Virginia city of Norfolk has fired a police lieutenant after news reports that said he donated to and expressed support for Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager accused of killing two people during a police brutality protest in Wisconsin last summer.
City officials announced Tuesday that police Lt. William Kelly had been “relieved of duty” after an internal investigation.
“His egregious comments erode the trust between the Norfolk Police Department and those they are sworn to serve. The City of Norfolk has a standard of behavior for all employees, and we will hold staff accountable,” City Manager Chip Filer said in a statement.
hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:09 pm
Question though: can they/should they use tasers in that kind of situation? Honest question as I'm not versed in police procedure. It may very well be that a taser might not be enough at times like that.
I read recently (forgetting where, or I'd add a cite) in connection with the Duane Wright shooting, that some experts have argued that the introduction of Tasers has actually made the situation with police and excessive use of force worse. The theory goes, the use of a Taser is a significant escalation in force, but one that the police are much more likely to jump to because it is supposed to be less than lethal. But once they've decided to Tazer someone, you're so far down the path of force and the next stop is deadly force and a shooting. The argument is, we'd be better off if their only choice was to go all, but, knowing that, the police would be less likely to get to that point. Instead, because they have a less than lethal alternative, they're much more likely to use it, leading to a significant increase in cases where things go off the rails and end in a police shooting.
I may have butchered that argument, but that was my understanding. Not sure how I feel about it, but I thought it was interesting.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:09 pm
Question though: can they/should they use tasers in that kind of situation? Honest question as I'm not versed in police procedure. It may very well be that a taser might not be enough at times like that.
I read recently (forgetting where, or I'd add a cite) in connection with the Duane Wright shooting, that some experts have argued that the introduction of Tasers has actually made the situation with police and excessive use of force worse. The theory goes, the use of a Taser is a significant escalation in force, but one that the police are much more likely to jump to because it is supposed to be less than lethal. But once they've decided to Tazer someone, you're so far down the path of force and the next stop is deadly force and a shooting. The argument is, we'd be better off if their only choice was to go all, but, knowing that, the police would be less likely to get to that point. Instead, because they have a less than lethal alternative, they're much more likely to use it, leading to a significant increase in cases where things go off the rails and end in a police shooting.
I may have butchered that argument, but that was my understanding. Not sure how I feel about it, but I thought it was interesting.
I've heard that as well. I camt remeber if it was based on statistics or just inferrence.
hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:09 pm
Question though: can they/should they use tasers in that kind of situation? Honest question as I'm not versed in police procedure. It may very well be that a taser might not be enough at times like that.
I read recently (forgetting where, or I'd add a cite) in connection with the Duane Wright shooting, that some experts have argued that the introduction of Tasers has actually made the situation with police and excessive use of force worse. The theory goes, the use of a Taser is a significant escalation in force, but one that the police are much more likely to jump to because it is supposed to be less than lethal. But once they've decided to Tazer someone, you're so far down the path of force and the next stop is deadly force and a shooting. The argument is, we'd be better off if their only choice was to go all, but, knowing that, the police would be less likely to get to that point. Instead, because they have a less than lethal alternative, they're much more likely to use it, leading to a significant increase in cases where things go off the rails and end in a police shooting.
I may have butchered that argument, but that was my understanding. Not sure how I feel about it, but I thought it was interesting.
Before Tasers, cops used their billy clubs. Tasers were designed to replace or reduce their use. I don't think Tasers changed anything.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Grifman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:13 pmBefore Tasers, cops used their billy clubs. Tasers were designed to replace or reduce their use. I don't think Tasers changed anything.
I have no data, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tasers did change things up. I suspect a situation is much, MUCH more likely to go from Taser -> gun than it is to go from club -> gun. Heck, the former appears to happen accidentally in a way that is just impossible with a billy club.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:09 pm
I don't envy anyone in law enforcement in Columbus today. I mean, yes...they have a long history of some pretty awful shit (they even disbanded their vice unit as they were more corrupt than the criminals they were investigating), but if that cop hadn't acted, that girl would have most likely been severely injured by that knife attack...if not outright killed. I don't see this one as a racist response. Just a tragic incident.
My take as well.
I watched the video, the headline could just have easily been, "Officer stands idle while teen stabbed to death".
), so my first, totally out of ass thought is to wonder what a police officer not wielding a gun would have done in this case? And what would the policy be (assuming they were not carrying a gun specifically)?
