Octopus Overlords

I don't think you could possibly look at how things are going and think that the GOP thinks it's in trouble. Even when they aren't in office they are dictating everything. They have the house, senate and president and they are walking all over them. Awesome times.

I'm not sure how different this is from door 2, but my read on it is that the majority (especially Thomas / Alito / Barrett) are conservative True Believers. I don't think they're thinking of it in terms of let's get this while we can, or about the electoral side of things. Rather, it's more of a zealous "we know these things are right, there's no cause or room for doubt or modesty, so why would we do anything other than what we know is right?"

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:55 pm That's what I was saying in the other thread- about how the GOP is in its death throes because I want to believe it's #1. If, instead, it's #2? It's unthinkable and it means we're now on the slide to things getting much, much worse.

Things are going to get much, much worse.

They no longer feel like they have any reason to hide what they're doing. They no longer fear fallout or consequences. That either means that they believe that they can't win (and this is clearly not the case), or they think that they can't lose.

The only hope I still feel is that the GOP has gotten here by appealing to Republican voters' fears. Now they've appealed to Democratic voters' fears. If it is enough to give us the kind of majority we'd need to enact change, and if the people holding the reigns have the guts to enact those changes (and the right ones), then there's a chance. But there are too many 'ifs' in there that are long shots for it to be realistic.

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm I'm not sure how different this is from door 2, but my read on it is that the majority (especially Thomas / Alito / Barrett) are conservative True Believers. I don't think they're thinking of it in terms of let's get this while we can, or about the electoral side of things. Rather, it's more of a zealous "we know these things are right, there's no cause or room for doubt or modesty, so why would we do anything other than what we know is right?"

I tend to agree. IMO when we say 'let's get what we can get'. I mean the hard right. They and their boosters are pipelining cases to the true believers serving them up whopper meatballs for radical definition of our society. They aren't tyrants with a completely free hand. They still need something framed for them. They just often are far overstepping from more measured, temperate, moderate law making into the realm of...fantastical right wing theories that are going to be harmful to wide swaths of the population. And are unpopular. It is about as bad an outcome as anyone could imagine.

Octavious wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm I don't think you could possibly look at how things are going and think that the GOP thinks it's in trouble. Even when they aren't in office they are dictating everything. They have the house, senate and president and they are walking all over them. Awesome times.

That's the rub and why I was criticizing Biden. He has essentially committed to saying that he doesn't support any action that deals with those immediate problems. His pleas is essentially vote for something numerically impossible and then we'll deliver. He has effectively surrendered. Unfortunately he is the leader of the only party in a position to do anything to save our democracy...peacefully.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw this and thought it was Sotomayor basically yelling - OH BULLSHIT.

I'm sure someone has a hotspot Wifi at midfield and they're all kneeling in close to check their email.

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:20 pmSo it's incredibly unlikely that Democrats will be able to get a liberal SCOTUS majority at least for the next few decades.

Certainly. It took the Conservatives 50 years to get this Court. We should be planning for a similar timeframe.

By that time it's pretty likely that the democracy crisis we're in will be over one way or another anyway.

No. Politics produces perpetual crisis - and democracy more than most. We have always had wolves at the gates, and we always will. Battles are won and lost, but the war goes ever on.

So that’s a ‘yes’ to the vampire thing?

Lol I wish. I was fine until I hit the mid-forties, but damn these last few years have been rough. Middle age sucks.

I was thinking of how far behind the 8-ball the Dems are now, and the decades-long plan that led conservatives to this victory, and a Pink Floyd lyric came to mind: "No one told you when to run...you missed the starting gun."

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:09 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:06 pm What I don't get is the how the dissenting judges can continue to play by the rules when the majority is clearly not doing so. It's similar to our legislators continuing to sit in the same room as their whackjob colleagues, clinging to traditions of civility and common decency until there essentially rendered powerless.

I don't disagree, though I think the minority justices aren't in that great a position for that stuff - what is it that you want them to be doing?

I place more blame on Pelosi and Schumer (and Biden) on this stuff, because they have much broader authority to at least kick up a stink.

I'll take anything other than dutifully being the only ones to play by the rules and face defeat after defeat.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:21 pm

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:09 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:06 pm What I don't get is the how the dissenting judges can continue to play by the rules when the majority is clearly not doing so. It's similar to our legislators continuing to sit in the same room as their whackjob colleagues, clinging to traditions of civility and common decency until there essentially rendered powerless.

I don't disagree, though I think the minority justices aren't in that great a position for that stuff - what is it that you want them to be doing?

I place more blame on Pelosi and Schumer (and Biden) on this stuff, because they have much broader authority to at least kick up a stink.

I'll take anything other than dutifully being the only ones to play by the rules and face defeat after defeat.

The thing is that there's nothing they can do right now to prevent defeat after defeat, other than try to pick off Roberts + Kavanaugh for a couple decisions. The only people who can do anything about it in the short term is Biden and Democrats in Congress (and in the longer term, voters).

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:24 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:21 pm

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:09 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:06 pm What I don't get is the how the dissenting judges can continue to play by the rules when the majority is clearly not doing so. It's similar to our legislators continuing to sit in the same room as their whackjob colleagues, clinging to traditions of civility and common decency until there essentially rendered powerless.

I don't disagree, though I think the minority justices aren't in that great a position for that stuff - what is it that you want them to be doing?

I place more blame on Pelosi and Schumer (and Biden) on this stuff, because they have much broader authority to at least kick up a stink.

I'll take anything other than dutifully being the only ones to play by the rules and face defeat after defeat.

The thing is that there's nothing they can do right now to prevent defeat after defeat, other than try to pick off Roberts + Kavanaugh for a couple decisions. The only people who can do anything about it in the short term is Biden and Democrats in Congress (and in the longer term, voters).

They can do anything within the traditional confines but they should do whatever they can to disrupt the Court. This is what they took their oaths for.

And agreed this more on our esteemed legislative and executive but it's an all-hands situation.

I honestly think there is little chance people are going to sit around for a generation while a reactionary unelected judicial order builds out a new christian order. We have to face that we live in a completely different era now. Individuals might not see it or believe it but it's simply true. These rulings aren't just radical. They are unwise and destabilizing.

I rate that the chances of violence from all sides just went up significantly. I reach these conclusions by listening to these folks. There is *RAGE* right now all across the electorate. It isn't even focused on the same things but we live in an extremely angry country. There are risk scenarios playing out that are alarming. Faith in institutions is flatlined. People are starting to talk about taking matters into their own hands. And you almost can't blame them. The government has utterly failed them through multiple crises. People have diminishing hope for the future.

What is the case for this normalizing? Maybe it will but it seems unlikely. In the end, this all could ramp up much quicker than we might have thought possible. We're going to have to see how the coming days and months play out and the mid-terms and hope the nation doesn't explode into violence.

Well, it's a start.

A full 85 elected prosecutors “collectively representing over 89 million people from 29 states and territories and the District of Columbia, including over 27 million from 12 states where abortion is now banned or likely to be banned” signed onto a new joint statement pledging not to prosecute people for receiving, providing, or helping with an abortion, no matter the recent Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade .

...so I guess the GOP will immediately start recall campaigns for those prosecutors and manage to then install their own cultists.

These sort of nullification campaigns are damaging in their own way. This is why legitimacy of the court mattered. We're seeing a break down of law and order. It's essentially folks saying, "Ok SCOTUS - enforce it". Which has always been that unsaid challenge that we have seen when the court and the other branches got too far out of alignment (e.g., battles with Jackson or FDR). Except now there is little middle ground to compromise with them anymore. It'll certainly lead to more pressure on a system that seemingly has no pressure relief valves anymore.

Skinypupy wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 pm Well, it's a start.

A full 85 elected prosecutors “collectively representing over 89 million people from 29 states and territories and the District of Columbia, including over 27 million from 12 states where abortion is now banned or likely to be banned” signed onto a new joint statement pledging not to prosecute people for receiving, providing, or helping with an abortion, no matter the recent Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade .

YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

There may be hope for us yet! BEST NEWS I'VE READ ALL WEEK!!!

WHOHOO!!!!

And before the peanut gallery chimes in; what ppl don't get is the supreme court has not been, is not now, nor will EVER be, in living memory, a guardian of the average citizen. We the people have no power to change this, especially now. Respecting precedent and observing norms will get people straight up killed RIGHT NOW.

We don't have the time to change this within a generation.

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:49 pm ...so I guess the GOP will immediately start recall campaigns for those prosecutors and manage to then install their own cultists.

Maybe. I suspect a great many of those signing on in red states represent large cities, which are usually blue no matter the state. Dislodging them may prove difficult.

Like, I get that it's been a frustrating week, but the GOP is not an invincible juggernaut. They make plenty of mistakes and have their own fault lines - many of which are likely to be freshly exposed by recent events. There's a reason Republicans are suddenly treading cautiously in the abortion waters.

In the wake of the Supreme Court’s decision overturning Roe v. Wade, former vice president Mike Pence says abortion should be banned nationwide and is planning behind the scenes to focus on the issue in the coming weeks, according to advisers.

Former president Donald Trump, in contrast, fears the ruling could hurt the GOP’s election chances, his advisers said, even as he hailed the ruling as “victory for life” at a Saturday rally.

And some ambitious Republican governors have called for tightening restrictions in their states while other leading figures in the party have avoided such ideas, as strategists say it remains unclear how abortion will reshape key races in future elections.

The court’s ruling has opened up new fissures among potential 2024 Republican presidential candidates, offering early clues about the contours of the primary. The differing reactions underscore the dilemma confronting Republicans in the aftermath of a far-reaching court decision that animates their base but could alienate other parts of the electorate.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:35 pm

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:24 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:21 pm

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:09 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:06 pm What I don't get is the how the dissenting judges can continue to play by the rules when the majority is clearly not doing so. It's similar to our legislators continuing to sit in the same room as their whackjob colleagues, clinging to traditions of civility and common decency until there essentially rendered powerless.

I don't disagree, though I think the minority justices aren't in that great a position for that stuff - what is it that you want them to be doing?

I place more blame on Pelosi and Schumer (and Biden) on this stuff, because they have much broader authority to at least kick up a stink.

I'll take anything other than dutifully being the only ones to play by the rules and face defeat after defeat.

The thing is that there's nothing they can do right now to prevent defeat after defeat, other than try to pick off Roberts + Kavanaugh for a couple decisions. The only people who can do anything about it in the short term is Biden and Democrats in Congress (and in the longer term, voters).

They can do anything within the traditional confines but they should do whatever they can to disrupt the Court. This is what they took their oaths for.

And agreed this more on our esteemed legislative and executive but it's an all-hands situation.

But like...what? Stop showing up to oral arguments? Stop filing dissents? They can't stop the Court from operating or from issuing decisions on these cases? They could make these 6-0 decisions as opposed to 6-3, but hard to see how we're in a better situation as a result. It would also mean leaving the majority's (loose) description of the facts unopposed in the public record.

Drazzil wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:55 pm

Skinypupy wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 pm Well, it's a start.

A full 85 elected prosecutors “collectively representing over 89 million people from 29 states and territories and the District of Columbia, including over 27 million from 12 states where abortion is now banned or likely to be banned” signed onto a new joint statement pledging not to prosecute people for receiving, providing, or helping with an abortion, no matter the recent Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade .

YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

There may be hope for us yet! BEST NEWS I'VE READ ALL WEEK!!!

WHOHOO!!!!

Mostly symbolic, as no doctor would knowingly set up shop in a place where their services would potentially be prosecuted by the next guy elected.

Still, I appreciate the gesture.

Yeah I don't know what the 3 justices can do other than speak truth to power. Most of the dissents this session have been powerful. They have pointed out the inconsistencies, fact flubbing, and general lack of goodwill in these cases. No one else is in a position to do that and share space with the majority in the same decision.

Skinypupy wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:00 pm

Drazzil wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:55 pm

Skinypupy wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 pm Well, it's a start.

A full 85 elected prosecutors “collectively representing over 89 million people from 29 states and territories and the District of Columbia, including over 27 million from 12 states where abortion is now banned or likely to be banned” signed onto a new joint statement pledging not to prosecute people for receiving, providing, or helping with an abortion, no matter the recent Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade .

YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

There may be hope for us yet! BEST NEWS I'VE READ ALL WEEK!!!

WHOHOO!!!!

Mostly symbolic, as no doctor would knowingly set up shop in a place where their services would potentially be prosecuted by the next guy elected.

Still, I appreciate the gesture.

Or family members civilly suing providers with theories about how their rights weren't considered.

Skinypupy wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:00 pm

Drazzil wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:55 pm

Skinypupy wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 pm Well, it's a start.

A full 85 elected prosecutors “collectively representing over 89 million people from 29 states and territories and the District of Columbia, including over 27 million from 12 states where abortion is now banned or likely to be banned” signed onto a new joint statement pledging not to prosecute people for receiving, providing, or helping with an abortion, no matter the recent Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade .

YYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

There may be hope for us yet! BEST NEWS I'VE READ ALL WEEK!!!

WHOHOO!!!!

Mostly symbolic, as no doctor would knowingly set up shop in a place where their services would potentially be prosecuted by the next guy elected.

Still, I appreciate the gesture.

It matters because the SC won't stop at abortion.

malchior wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:02 pm Yeah I don't know what the 3 justices can do other than speak truth to power. Most of the dissents this session have been powerful. They have pointed out the inconsistencies, fact flubbing, and general lack of goodwill in these cases. No one else is in a position to do that and share space with the majority in the same decision.

It'd be nice if they simply signed off every dissent with the legal opinion that the SC was no longer legitimate and the legal reasoning behind why every single bad call the majority made should not be followed. That'd take real balls though

Do this until the majority forces them off the bench, but before they can resign en masse, leave the country for some place with freedom of the press. Write a book about how the SC is no longer legitimate and then shit on every ruling the zombie SC makes and call for the supreme court to be reconstituted fairly

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:22 pmMy 12 year old daughter could well be 30 when they decide to step down. And that's me talking as if there will not be a Republican president Supreme Leader that replaces them with v2.0

FTFY

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:49 pm ...so I guess the GOP will immediately start recall campaigns for those prosecutors and manage to then install their own cultists.

But that would at least be on the voters.

Little Raven wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:56 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:49 pm ...so I guess the GOP will immediately start recall campaigns for those prosecutors and manage to then install their own cultists.

Maybe. I suspect a great many of those signing on in red states represent large cities, which are usually blue no matter the state. Dislodging them may prove difficult.

Like, I get that it's been a frustrating week, but the GOP is not an invincible juggernaut. They make plenty of mistakes and have their own fault lines - many of which are likely to be freshly exposed by recent events. There's a reason Republicans are suddenly treading cautiously in the abortion waters.

In the wake of the Supreme Court’s decision overturning Roe v. Wade, former vice president Mike Pence says abortion should be banned nationwide and is planning behind the scenes to focus on the issue in the coming weeks, according to advisers.

Former president Donald Trump, in contrast, fears the ruling could hurt the GOP’s election chances, his advisers said, even as he hailed the ruling as “victory for life” at a Saturday rally.

And some ambitious Republican governors have called for tightening restrictions in their states while other leading figures in the party have avoided such ideas, as strategists say it remains unclear how abortion will reshape key races in future elections.

The court’s ruling has opened up new fissures among potential 2024 Republican presidential candidates, offering early clues about the contours of the primary. The differing reactions underscore the dilemma confronting Republicans in the aftermath of a far-reaching court decision that animates their base but could alienate other parts of the electorate.

Trump always saw it as a carrot.
You never actually give the donkey the carrot, you keep it inches from their face.

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:58 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:35 pm

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:24 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:21 pm

El Guapo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:09 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:06 pm What I don't get is the how the dissenting judges can continue to play by the rules when the majority is clearly not doing so. It's similar to our legislators continuing to sit in the same room as their whackjob colleagues, clinging to traditions of civility and common decency until there essentially rendered powerless.

I don't disagree, though I think the minority justices aren't in that great a position for that stuff - what is it that you want them to be doing?

I place more blame on Pelosi and Schumer (and Biden) on this stuff, because they have much broader authority to at least kick up a stink.

I'll take anything other than dutifully being the only ones to play by the rules and face defeat after defeat.

The thing is that there's nothing they can do right now to prevent defeat after defeat, other than try to pick off Roberts + Kavanaugh for a couple decisions. The only people who can do anything about it in the short term is Biden and Democrats in Congress (and in the longer term, voters).

They can do anything within the traditional confines but they should do whatever they can to disrupt the Court. This is what they took their oaths for.

And agreed this more on our esteemed legislative and executive but it's an all-hands situation.

But like...what? Stop showing up to oral arguments? Stop filing dissents? They can't stop the Court from operating or from issuing decisions on these cases? They could make these 6-0 decisions as opposed to 6-3, but hard to see how we're in a better situation as a result. It would also mean leaving the majority's (loose) description of the facts unopposed in the public record.

I was thinking more creative solutions. Do everything to make all tasks as onerous as possible. Drag things to a halt. Throw fisticuffs. Shit in the coffee maker. Get a media relations team and spin up.

Fighting dirty isn't sinking to your opponent's level after they've been doing it for years. They've already pulled you down to their level.


PS, my earlier post should have read:

They can't do anything within the traditional confines but...

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:49 pm You never actually give the donkey the carrot, you keep it inches from their face.

(Which is, incidentally, the purpose of "the stick." The stick isn't for beating the donkey.)

Kraken wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:16 pm

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:49 pm You never actually give the donkey the carrot, you keep it inches from their face.

(Which is, incidentally, the purpose of "the stick." The stick isn't for beating the donkey.)

OMG, yes - this is endlessly annoying to me too.

I hate when people turn that into a "Punishment vs Reward" thing. It's about keeping the reward just nearly within and yet out of reach.

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:25 pm

Kraken wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:16 pm

Unagi wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:49 pm You never actually give the donkey the carrot, you keep it inches from their face.

(Which is, incidentally, the purpose of "the stick." The stick isn't for beating the donkey.)

OMG, yes - this is endlessly annoying to me too.

I hate when people turn that into a "Punishment vs Reward" thing. It's about keeping the reward just nearly within and yet out of reach.

Actually, yours is a common misconception as well.

The true origin is the fable of the carrot and the stick. The carrot stored.food diligently all summer while the stick frolicked about. When winter rolled around, the stick starved to death and the carrot was able to use him for firewood.

I wouldn't expect someone here to post a tweet from The Post Millennial, which is Andy Ngo's rag.

pr0ner wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:16 am I wouldn't expect someone here to post a tweet from The Post Millennial, which is Andy Ngo's rag.

Actually went googling for the clip since someone told me about the speech. It was the best one to come.up. No idea who Andy Ngo is but don't think we'll make or break his views.

The clip is legit and from a long line of Lightfoot outbursts. This one I agree with and it is representative of the atmosphere here. It's also kind of interesting that presumably, given your reaction, Post Millennial probably posted it as something alarming or terrifying when I see it as spot on. I may have to reconsider my doubt of her previous claim.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:45 am

pr0ner wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:16 am I wouldn't expect someone here to post a tweet from The Post Millennial, which is Andy Ngo's rag.

Actually went googling for the clip since someone told me about the speech. It was the best one to come.up. No idea who Andy Ngo is but don't think we'll make or break his views.

The clip is legit and from a long line of Lightfoot outbursts. This one I agree with and it is representative of the atmosphere here. It's also kind of interesting that presumably, given your reaction, Post Millennial probably posted it as something alarming or terrifying when I see it as spot on. I may have to reconsider my doubt of her previous claim.

TPM and Andy Ngo are heavy into the far-right disinformation realm for future reference.