Octopus Overlords

Punisher wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:21 pm

hepcat wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 12:14 pm No one has suggested giving a pigeon a phone. That's just ridiculous. We're discussing a cell phone's ability to spontaneously achieve sentience and utilize ride sharing services when left to fend for itself in the woods. A pigeon with a phone? You make us sound like loonies, for christ's sake.

Actually that's exactly what I meant.
Give the pigeons cell phones then set them up with Waze.

Aren't they already on that other tool... Flock?

The pigeon issue comes down to one big thing: It's for entertainment. It's a hobby. It's not conveying messages, or saving lives, or scientific study. Again, greater than 50% casualties per race isn't uncommon for pigeon racing, and having a race without even one animal dying of starvation, predation for which they have no 'wild bird' defenses, or poisoning. Even the best, most ethical racer is putting domestic animals in danger for entertainment and human gratification. Even the people with the best of intentions can't skirt around that fact, and those with the best intention are few and far between, with the majority being the type that kills the slowest birds to make it home so that only the fastest ones breed.

Pigeons aren't mindless. They're one of the more intelligent birds, more than capable of learning, and able to pass the 'sentience' tests that shows that they're emotional, social, and self-aware. Tests suggest that they're more intelligent than cats and some species of dogs, and about the equivalent of a human three- or four-year-old. They're that way because they're not wild animals - they're the result of 10,000 years of human controlled breeding to create working animals.

Putting them at unnecessary risk purely for entertainment is wrong. And this isn't some isolated issue for me - I'd say the same for any other species. There's a reason that zoos don't offer elephant rides anymore, cock fighting is illegal, as is dog fighting, and dog racing is banned in much of the nation. We're growing up as a culture.

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:13 am And this isn't some isolated issue for me - I'd say the same for any other species. There's a reason that zoos don't offer elephant rides anymore, cock fighting is illegal, as is dog fighting, and dog racing is banned in much of the nation. We're growing up as a culture.

This kind of issue throws me back on my hypocrisy as a meat-eater.

I'm fully convinced that the ethical arguments for vegetarianism are correct. PETA's antics may be annoying, but they are 100% right about animal suffering. Factory farming is a horror for which future generations will (hopefully) condemn us.

So why do I continue to eat meat? Simply because it's tasty and convenient.

Time to reconsider my habits.

I'm not going to apologize for being an omnivore until lions apologize for being carnivores.

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 11:52 am I'm not going to apologize for being an omnivore until lions apologize for being carnivores.

Lions don't understand that they cause suffering. We do.

The basic ethical point is that suffering is bad, so causing it is bad.

I've seen Lion King. Those bastards know exactly what they're doing.

When I'm eating a steak, I'm not uttering "Take that!" with every bite. So my goal isn't to cause suffering whenever I hit up a Mortons either. It may be a by product of my ordering the ribeye smothered in onions and mushrooms, but I humbly propose that we ALL cause suffering with almost every modern convenience we enjoy.

The fallacy of relative privation.

For the record I am not a vegan or vegetarian.

Holman wrote:

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 11:52 am I'm not going to apologize for being an omnivore until lions apologize for being carnivores.

Lions don't understand that they cause suffering. We do.

The basic ethical point is that suffering is bad, so causing it is bad.

Do we really know that plants don't "feel?"

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:03 pm I humbly propose that we ALL cause suffering with almost every modern convenience we enjoy.

Astute observation. Think about those cell phones, sneakers, computer components, car batteries, even T-shirts we all enjoy. Unless you are a hermit and living off fruit that falls to the ground it's suffering all the way down.

The Good Place covered this general discussion in a way I found very entertaining.

disarm wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:44 pm

Holman wrote:

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 11:52 am I'm not going to apologize for being an omnivore until lions apologize for being carnivores.

Lions don't understand that they cause suffering. We do.

The basic ethical point is that suffering is bad, so causing it is bad.

Do we really know that plants don't "feel?"

I've been subjecting an eggplant to repeated viewings of Madame Web and it hasn't begged me to stop yet. Which tells me that eggplants don't "feel" or they really friggin' like Dakota Johnson.

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:02 pm

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 11:52 am I'm not going to apologize for being an omnivore until lions apologize for being carnivores.

Lions don't understand that they cause suffering. We do.

The basic ethical point is that suffering is bad, so causing it is bad.

Eh, Detroit Lions fans have been suffering for decades!

So your solution is to eat them!?!?

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:02 pm

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:03 pm I humbly propose that we ALL cause suffering with almost every modern convenience we enjoy.

Astute observation. Think about those cell phones, sneakers, computer components, car batteries, even T-shirts we all enjoy. Unless you are a hermit and living off fruit that falls to the ground it's suffering all the way down.

I know folks are kind of riffing, but it's a serious issue.

Most of have little control over the suffering baked into the global economy, but it's undeniable that we all have an ethical obligation not to cause suffering where we can avoid doing so.

Most of ignore that obligation most of the time (including me), but dietary choices are one place where we can have an impact.

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:47 pm

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:02 pm

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:03 pm I humbly propose that we ALL cause suffering with almost every modern convenience we enjoy.

Astute observation. Think about those cell phones, sneakers, computer components, car batteries, even T-shirts we all enjoy. Unless you are a hermit and living off fruit that falls to the ground it's suffering all the way down.

I know folks are kind of riffing, but it's a serious issue.

Most of have little control over the suffering baked into the global economy, but it's undeniable that we all have an ethical obligation not to cause suffering where we can avoid doing so.

Most of ignore that obligation most of the time (including me), but dietary choices are one place where we can have an impact.

The problem is a personal decision to stop eating meat is not going to slow down the animal food machine one iota. If they have even one slaughtered animal that doesn't sell they will just feed it to the pigs...or cows.

Come here to say I hate that feeling where you can't quite tell if it's hunger or nausea and ended up in the Random Philosophical Debates thread.

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:47 pm

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:02 pm

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:03 pm I humbly propose that we ALL cause suffering with almost every modern convenience we enjoy.

Astute observation. Think about those cell phones, sneakers, computer components, car batteries, even T-shirts we all enjoy. Unless you are a hermit and living off fruit that falls to the ground it's suffering all the way down.

I know folks are kind of riffing, but it's a serious issue.

Most of have little control over the suffering baked into the global economy, but it's undeniable that we all have an ethical obligation not to cause suffering where we can avoid doing so.

Most of ignore that obligation most of the time (including me), but dietary choices are one place where we can have an impact.

The problem is a personal decision to stop eating meat is not going to slow down the animal food machine one iota. If they have even one slaughtered animal that doesn't sell they will just feed it to the pigs...or cows.

This is where it gets political. Individuals can't do much until enough individuals do (sometimes through their government), and then suddenly you've enacted real change.

Anyway, this is probably a topic for its own thread, but I'll let someone else start that if they want to.

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:47 pm

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:02 pm

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:03 pm I humbly propose that we ALL cause suffering with almost every modern convenience we enjoy.

Astute observation. Think about those cell phones, sneakers, computer components, car batteries, even T-shirts we all enjoy. Unless you are a hermit and living off fruit that falls to the ground it's suffering all the way down.

I know folks are kind of riffing, but it's a serious issue.

Most of have little control over the suffering baked into the global economy, but it's undeniable that we all have an ethical obligation not to cause suffering where we can avoid doing so.

Most of ignore that obligation most of the time (including me), but dietary choices are one place where we can have an impact.

The problem is a personal decision to stop eating meat is not going to slow down the animal food machine one iota. If they have even one slaughtered animal that doesn't sell they will just feed it to the pigs...or cows.

While true a single person doesn't stop eating meat because they think it will make a difference. They do it because they don't want to participate in the machine.

I also believe climate change is the more pressing concern for the welfare of both animals AND humans.

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 11:23 am

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:13 am And this isn't some isolated issue for me - I'd say the same for any other species. There's a reason that zoos don't offer elephant rides anymore, cock fighting is illegal, as is dog fighting, and dog racing is banned in much of the nation. We're growing up as a culture.

This kind of issue throws me back on my hypocrisy as a meat-eater.

I'm fully convinced that the ethical arguments for vegetarianism are correct. PETA's antics may be annoying, but they are 100% right about animal suffering. Factory farming is a horror for which future generations will (hopefully) condemn us.

So why do I continue to eat meat? Simply because it's tasty and convenient.

Something that I have absolutely taken into consideration. I'm not blind to the parallels. In my view, it comes down to two things: the purpose (food vs entertainment) and existing progress. A ton more work needs to be done on meat cruelty, but the work is being - slowly - done. It's also heavily regulated, with the more cruel behaviors being outright banned (at least in theory.) Ideally, we'd all switch to non-meat/non-cruelty alternatives (and if they were more available and affordable where I live, I already would have.) But the issue has armies of champions, so I don't bother to wave that particular banner. It doesn't mean that I don't see it or don't care, just that there is only so much that each person can do with the time they have.

Using animals for entertainment, with guaranteed suffering and a very good chance that the animals will die in the process, on the other hand, is a step over the line that not many people care about, at least once you get past the lovable horses and doggies. So that particular issue I'm more likely to speak up about. My time with birds (including, but not limited to, pigeons) doesn't make it my pet issue, it just makes me more aware of an issue that most people aren't aware of. Most people see birds as something on the level of insects, when science is telling us that a significant number of them are self-aware and likely sentient. So I speak out.

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:01 pm I also believe climate change is the more pressing concern for the welfare of both animals AND humans.

Hello? Is this thing on??

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:37 pm The fallacy of relative privation.

EvilHomer3k wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:59 pm

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:52 pm

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:47 pm

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 1:02 pm

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:03 pm I humbly propose that we ALL cause suffering with almost every modern convenience we enjoy.

Astute observation. Think about those cell phones, sneakers, computer components, car batteries, even T-shirts we all enjoy. Unless you are a hermit and living off fruit that falls to the ground it's suffering all the way down.

I know folks are kind of riffing, but it's a serious issue.

Most of have little control over the suffering baked into the global economy, but it's undeniable that we all have an ethical obligation not to cause suffering where we can avoid doing so.

Most of ignore that obligation most of the time (including me), but dietary choices are one place where we can have an impact.

The problem is a personal decision to stop eating meat is not going to slow down the animal food machine one iota. If they have even one slaughtered animal that doesn't sell they will just feed it to the pigs...or cows.

While true a single person doesn't stop eating meat because they think it will make a difference. They do it because they don't want to participate in the machine.

You're talking to someone who was a vegetarian for 10 years, so I know the drill.

I was going to reply but don't want to make this thread a downer for people who want more silly randomness and less doom and gloom.
We have a thread that I think this discussion would be better suited anyway.
Clash of Cultures thread

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:01 pm I also believe climate change is the more pressing concern for the welfare of both animals AND humans.

It is pretty well known that the resources devoted to Cattle, and the Cattle herds themselves do have a measurable impact on climate change tho.

Pyperkub wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 4:20 pm

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:01 pm I also believe climate change is the more pressing concern for the welfare of both animals AND humans.

It is pretty well known that the resources devoted to Cattle, and the Cattle herds themselves do have a measurable impact on climate change tho.

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:15 pm

Hello? Is this thing on??

Don't tease those of us wishing it wasn't.

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 5:52 pm Don't tease those of us wishing it wasn't.

Don't worry, I'll be quiet until your next logical fallacy. I'll be afk for 5 mins. Try to hold out that long.

Sounds like a weird hobby, but you do you, Boo.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 4:49 pm

Pyperkub wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 4:20 pm

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 2:01 pm I also believe climate change is the more pressing concern for the welfare of both animals AND humans.

It is pretty well known that the resources devoted to Cattle, and the Cattle herds themselves do have a measurable impact on climate change tho.

Heh, it also applies to our overall climate change policies - all we do is fart around!

That's more about the resources devoted to cattle. I don't believe that cow farts are THAT much of a climate change problem.

However, I truly believe that with proper training and time, I can be that problem.

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 5:57 pm Sounds like a weird hobby, but you do you, Boo.

Lol.

I totally get the moral/ethical objections to eating animals. Am sympathetic to them, honestly. Perhaps people 100 years from now will look back on it as barbarism.

But the 4 million years of omnivore evolution that brought me here make it hard to change. Sure, hunting one's own meat to supplement one's diet is a lot more defensible than supporting factory farming, and if the human population was a few million people we could go back to doing that sustainably. I prefer to think that lab-grown meat will be the way out -- real meat without any actual animals!

Now I'm going downstairs to make me some veggie burgers because I have some leftover farro in the fridge that's just about the right consistency to form a burger, and a new air fryer telling me I can do this.

Farro the ancient grain? I love that stuff! Alessi makes a packaged ferro with porcini mushrooms that is fantastic.

If you’ve ever raised chickens, you know they are filthy, nasty animals who bully each other to death and deserve to be eaten. My grandfather helped my dad slaughter those left out of a batch of 100 that we raised in our garage one summer. I learned vividly what running around like a chicken with its head cut off looked like that day.

hepcat wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 8:20 pm Farro the ancient grain? I love that stuff! Alessi makes a packaged ferro with porcini mushrooms that is fantastic.

The same. I have a two-part recipe that first makes a farro stew with assorted mushrooms and some other stuff, which then forms the base for a farro soup. TBH the soup is much better than the stew, but you gotta have the first to make the second.

Unfortunately the leftover farro stew was still too moist to hang together as patties and the fryer couldn't persuade them to gel, so my "burgers" came out more like sloppy joes. Tasted fine but made rather a mess. Oh well, I used up the leftovers and gained some XP.

Chewy, hearty farro works fine as a substitute for ground beef in chili, but it would need additional work to form burgers.

Since Wife is a pescovegetarian ("pesky vegetarian") I eat more grains and less meat than the average American, but I don't want to go vegetarian myself.

TIL the world record for solving a Rubik's Cube is 3.13 seconds. That is certifiably insane.

Zarathud wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 9:31 pm If you’ve ever raised chickens, you know they are filthy, nasty animals who bully each other to death and deserve to be eaten. My grandfather helped my dad slaughter those left out of a batch of 100 that we raised in our garage one summer. I learned vividly what running around like a chicken with its head cut off looked like that day.

100 in garage? Yeesh. We raised chickens for eggs and usually had one or two cocks and a dozen hens at a time and they lived crowded in a fenced coop the size of a one car garage. Cocks are mean and their spurs will nick a bone... I also vividly remember what remember what a chicken running around with its head cut off looks like.

I also am a hypocrite. I have zero stomach for animal slaughter but meat is a main staple of my diet. Other proteins just don't cut it. If i had to butcher animals myself, I might think differently. Or I might grow cold to the idea of killing (doubtful). It's hard to reconcile that stuff has to die for me to live and it haunts me. I've yet to find lasting peace with it. Forget the ecological shifts being done to feeding billions every day.

Im using this as desktop wallpaper and thought id share it in case someone else loves the band Boston as much as me.

LordMortis wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2025 8:16 am 100 in garage? Yeesh.

My daughter had two hens in a coop in our garage for a while. So much dust. On everything.