Octopus Overlords

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:26 am I had paingod's same impression from the exact link you posted. Why would they add that path tiles don't absorb if the "chunk" underneath still does? I might have glossed over an in depth explanation. I do that disambiguates

Me too! According to the chart in there everything except Landfill and Concrete contributes to a chunk's pollution absorption rate. I figured that if I laid down a lot of those, I'd be killing absorption.

stessier wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:34 am

Biters have really been hammering my walls on all sides due to pollution spillage, so my next agenda item is the train of doom and expansion. I've already tacked two Artillery cars onto my Logistics train and will try to build out a rolling platform of death later tonight. My plan, until it meets the enemy is...

I like doing this as well, but note that it can be a lot more dangerous than you expect. Depending on just how many spawners the artillery brings in at once, you may need a SIGNIFICANT bunker to repel everything.

Yeah, it depends on your settings as to what the max size of a swarm can be, but the default max quantity can really bring the pain.

I assume, since I play with all the defaults, that I'm in for a treat. I'll be sure to build walls 4 thick and lasers/flamers as dense as I can 4 or 5 thick to start and see what that leaves me with.

My bad on the absorption of covered-over tiles! Thanks for the correction, gents. (I never really noticed it having any sort of a meaningful effect in actual play, but I don't tile-over chunks at a time, unlike some city block schemes I've seen. I just make paths where I tend to walk back and forth.)

The Meal wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:52 am My bad on the absorption of covered-over tiles! Thanks for the correction, gents. (I never really noticed it having any sort of a meaningful effect in actual play, but I don't tile-over chunks at a time, unlike some city block schemes I've seen. I just make paths where I tend to walk back and forth.)

I'm building my form of city blocks right now. It's a mess, as I am still learning the basics and don't have a good spacing plan. Thank Pancake for learning for adapting to the cut and paste features.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:08 amI'm building my form of city blocks right now.

I didn't want to use city blocks, but certainly see the appeal. My map has turned into more of a rural free-for-all. It looks a bit like chaos, but I like the organic feel of it. My main rail line still isn't congested enough to warrant replacement - not even remotely close - but I've had a few snags where I misaligned rail signals and created traffic jams. It's mostly sorted out.

For example, there's a good reason my single refuel depot can hold 16 trains waiting for their turn at the 1s pitstop to top off their rocket fuel. It used to be a 5 pitstop and I had a pretty significant pileup more than once that I had to unplug with a plunger. Since I adjusted all of the trains to 1s I haven't ever seen more than two or three waiting at once.

Yeah, Nilaus's city blocks are just too sterile for me. I do understand how that appeals to some.

My other concern is that I *don't* want one network for the whole base. I like individual logistics networks at different places. A city blocks scheme that only covers the mall and logistics train pick-up stations could work for me. But just plopping down roboports where they fit in that area also works just fine for me.

I'll get to organic later. Learning how pieces fit together comes first. Then I can worry about why I'd want to ignore how they fit together. I'm a planner and a rules follower and symmetry tends to be more calming for me.

I'll be happy to be more chaotic or organic in later games when the the pieces make more sense. Again still no nuclear, trains, or logistic bots for me yet. Once those three pieces fall in to sensible place for me then I can branch out in how I play/experience the game, though by then there probably be other pieces, like a better defense/advance game plan.

I found I kept using Logistics bots as a stop-gap for poor planning. I'd get a spaghetti assembly line going somewhere and find myself painted into a corner with no easy way to get, say Engines back to where I had Lubricant so I could make Electric Engines. My fix was always to add Roboports and logistics chests to compensate. That's part of why I was dedicated to not using them.

I suppose that if I ever get to a place where I'm worried about UPS's and seeing performance lag, I'll have to deal with the seven thousand splitters/balancers I've placed all over the map - but I'm nowhere near that.

I've been really digging the belts and hubs I've made that I can either recreate to make more efficient later, piecemeal without disassembling my whole base, or copy and stamp down a second time to double my production or use for a different product that has a similar configuration.

I like being able to add another train depot to drop off raw materials and drop down another converting line and just let the bots handle getting the material from Point A to Point B. To each their own.

So, are you all playing with the 1.1 beta ?

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:19 pm So, are you all playing with the 1.1 beta ?

Ohhhh, how do I get it? After Meal mentioned it the other day, I went looking, but didn't see anyway to get to 1.1 through Steam. But I also didn't try very hard.

I'm not in the Beta, and not overly worried about it. I think the only thing I read that I was like "Oh, yeah" was the baked in basic Train logistics (limiting the number of trains to a given station, forcing others to head elsewhere). It sounded like it would eliminate any complications to using Trains by default.

stessier wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:45 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:19 pm So, are you all playing with the 1.1 beta ?

Ohhhh, how do I get it?

Awesome - thanks!

stessier wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:45 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:19 pm So, are you all playing with the 1.1 beta ?

Ohhhh, how do I get it? After Meal mentioned it the other day, I went looking, but didn't see anyway to get to 1.1 through Steam. But I also didn't try very hard.

It's under the properties of the game, in your library - far right tab, Betas


edit: ugh - or what The Meal posted is better

The bunker works! I cleared out a large patch outside my base. It takes time, but it's far easier than running around in my Tank and trying to not die. I'm not sure if it's the "new way" or not. I need to start sectioning off areas I clear to see how I really feel. I've got the two tiny Artillery trains set to head back and resupply when they run out of ammo, then return to keep firing.

Paingod, that looks like an awesome bunker! Flamethrowers are so satisfying.

The Meal wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:36 pm

The Meal wrote: ↑Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:43 pm
Should be a bit different than any of my previous games. I'm looking forward to it!

Progress:

I've got my smelting arrays plotted out (though I'm going to need more steel) and the beginnings of my bus laid out.

The Meal wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:04 amI'm going to need more steel

I have never had enough Steel. Some day I'll address that.

With Auto Deconstruct getting updated today, that's the last mod on my list that's made ready for 1.1. Here's my "final" list of mods I'm using for this playthrough:

I hadn't really considered modding the game. It seems nearly perfect. However, some of those quality of life things (assuming they match their names) seem kind of useful. How much would you say they improve your overall experience in the game? Like "Can't play without it" or "Kind of nice" or "Take it or leave it"

Paingod wrote: ↑Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:30 pm I hadn't really considered modding the game. It seems nearly perfect. However, some of those quality of life things (assuming they match their names) seem kind of useful. How much would you say they improve your overall experience in the game? Like "Can't play without it" or "Kind of nice" or "Take it or leave it"

The game's definitely playable vanilla. As you well know.

I put my one sentence impressions of most of these mods towards the end of the previous page. I consider a number of these significantly beneficial to my enjoyment. Blueprint Flip and Turn, despite its name, actually allows you to flip and turn any copy/paste event (unlike the new 'f' and 'g' key functionality for Blueprints specifically in 1.1). If you don't know about it, maybe it doesn't bother you. But recreate a few copy events by hand (for no good reason), and you'd conclude that you wouldn't want to play without it. A lot of the mods fall into this category for me.

Auto Deconstruct automatically marks miners for deconstruction once there's no ore under their square. If you've got a logistics train going to those locations and some sort of "junk recycler" associated with that station, it's pretty sweet to have those electric miners returned to your cache for use in future mining outposts. Sure, you could happen by an ore patch and manually pull up those machines which have already fulfilled their role, but having it in a mod just makes things a little bit more enjoyable.

I really don't care for the night-time texture of the game. AotD solves that for me. I sometimes change my mind about my technology order and don't like that I have to completely cancel anything which changes to bring something new to the top of the list. Improved Research Queue lets me drag and drop items in that list. Default Landfill is ugly. NiceFill makes it match the underlying terrain mapping.

There are probably a thousand mods I never even considered which would make the game even more enjoyable for me. I periodically go through the list (the in-game mod system is hyperpainless), scroll through the twenty most-downloaded or recently-most downloaded and spend a few minutes with them to see if they're something that'd enhance my game. As you can see from my recent posts, I'm not particularly locked in on any one set of mods (even putting final in scarequotes in my previous post, knowing I'll probably change things along the way in my 1.1 playthrough).

You're not missing anything quintessentially Factorio by not using mods, but other than your first 10 hours of play (when you're not even really sure about what it is you don't even know), I can't think of a reason to not include them in your game. I basically use some QoL stuff (GhostPlacerExpress and MouseoverDeconstruct are early game lifechangers), but there are mods that _radically_ overhaul the game (I'd suggest the 30-or-so Bob's sequence as a nice icebreaker for what else could be available, but there are four or five very popular overhaul systems out there).

I appreciate the feedback. I'm not likely to abandon my 160hr map, though. This is as far as I've ever gotten in Factorio and I'm still enjoying it. Previous play attempts got as far as the second or third redesign of my factory, always leading to a spaghetti mess that I was left frustrated by. This time, using the hubs has been crucial to continued enjoyment.

A lot of what you describe does sound useful, and maybe modding is something I'll do if/when I start a new map.

My time last night was spent shoring up my defenses. In my quest to expand one side, I had neglected another and biters actually ripped a hole through my walls. It wasn't until they were chewing on a nearby mining operation that I realized how badly it had gone.

In response I worked to set up an automated resupply system for the walls, running rails out to most of them. The only issue is that they kept running out of repair tools and replacement turrets.

I did clear a bit of territory with my mobile bunker, repositioning it three times and walling in the safe zones behind me. It's slow work, though. Probably slower than if I used a Tank, and likely far slower than a Spidertron (which I have researched but haven't built - I really should). I really liked the concept and execution, but the plodding pace breaks the function. I want to expand, not crawl across the map. I'm considering, then, using my newly founded rail system along the walls to act as hosts for the mobile artillery. The existing defenses could be bolstered to three turrets deep, and then as the artillery clears a wide swath outside the wall, I simply push the walls forward and out. Copy/paste style. Roboports, power lines, turrets, rails, etc.

All this laser turret work eats up power, too. My reactor almost ran dry last night and I had to mass-produce 1k more fuel cells from my U235 reserves. Perhaps it's time to utilize the Solar factories I built and actually roll out wide patches of solar power to back up my reactors?

I don't think a single mod on my most recent list affects a current map (i.e., you could turn any or all of them on or off on any given save and things would continue to work fine).

Well then ...

I've begun moving production onto my bus. I'll put all the science stuff above the bus, and other production below. First up is my belt/logistics array:

That's a dense pack of belts there, extending across the landscape.

Are you using land mines? I see a lot of "x" shapes that I'm not familiar with outside of your walls.

Paingod wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:09 am Are you using land mines? I see a lot of "x" shapes that I'm not familiar with outside of your walls.

I was wondering what those are as well.

The + outside my walls are wall segments that biters have to path around as they try to get at my turrets. Gives the guns a bit more time to plink the enemies before they actually start biting on something.

The bus from top-to-bottom will be 4 sections of 4 belts each followed by 5 fluid items and completing with 3 sections of 4 belts each. Currently I only have a rough idea as to what'll be in each of my belt sections: 4x iron, 4x copper, 4x steel, stone ore, stone bricks, coal, and ??? on the above-the-fluids portion. The below-the-fluids will be things like circuits, batteries, plastic, concrete (hmmm, actually maybe this would be the last item in the coal/stone/brick section), LDS, solid fuel, etc.

The Meal wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:31 amThe + outside my walls are wall segments that biters have to path around as they try to get at my turrets. Gives the guns a bit more time to plink the enemies before they actually start biting on something.

Interesting. I never considered trying to alter their flow to my walls, but I suppose breaking them up helps stop the giant blobs that hit my walls all at once. An old trick from old tower defense games...

Decided nuclear is my next leap forward as I am hitting a power wall. Now that I am learning nuclear, I wish I had started a while ago. I'm wondering if I make enough centrifuges to get reasonable output or do I let it slowly churn our with 4. I'm already way over drawing power at night. At least now I know, and I'm actually learning how it works.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:41 pmI'm already way over drawing power at night.

Such is Factorio. It's a game of hitting walls and climbing over them.

Y'all who've had Spiderbots must have thought my Artillery train and bunker were quaint. I made a 'Bot last night and went on an absolutely epic rampage, clearing a large patch of space on one side of my base with just my Personal Defense lasers.

At the end of my last play session I had my To Do list (in no particular order), including a handful of things I wanted to prioritize assembly of:


However, after further review, I'm in serious trouble:


After setting up multiple sources of significant pollution (the initial smelting in my starter peninsula, a large steam power array, and a very large smelting array at the left end of my bus), well I've got pollution hitting a lot of biter bases. My primary issue right now stems from three separate base locations: A (which is really three bases of its own), B, and C, who're conspiring to hammer me on two separate ends of the wall on the peninsula I landfilled over to as I took ores over to the bus smelting array. Attacks aren't quite constant, but they're nearly so (you can see a big incoming biter mess next to the upper-right attack vector arrow). Next up on the concern-o-meter are the sometimes attacks generated by base locations D and E to the lower-right corner of my base. This issue is that I set up turrets here with only a small amount of yellow ammo (well under 50 units per turret) and I can see my wall is already taking damage. Future issues are identified in bases I (which will join with D & E, shortly) and especially F, G, and H which will conspire to attack a new wall section above my bus smelting array.

Maybe I shouldn't have dialed back trees as much as I did? (I definitely shouldn't have dialed back trees as much as I did.)

My first To Do entry is to "take it to" the biters at area A, but any resources I expend in that process are just going to go into the ether. I've got enemy expansion on, and even if I clear out that area, it's only a temporary solution. I've only currently got two red ammo assembly machines in my starter area, and it's not actually clear to me where my next source of iron is coming from. I don't want to just dump starter iron into boatloads of ammo to only give myself a temporary reprieve.

That sort of addresses my bottom-most To Do entry (set up an ammo generating facility on the bus along with some turrets {which I've only been hand-crafting, but that's been fine}). I would be able to hold off the hordes at those two wall segments if I generated boatloads of ammo and belted them to the two separate wall sections getting hammered, but I fear in so doing I'd burn through the majority of my starting iron (yellow ammo is iron-only, red ammo uses lots of yellow ammo, along with copper and steel as its components).

As I type my way through my thought-process I'm settling on trying to mitigate my pollution spread. My pollution source nearest enemy areas A, B, and C is my steam power setup (currently a 1-10-20 set up of offshore pump, steam boilers, and steam engines) and I think I can dial that back meaningfully (at least until I get the bus going). I've got four lines of ores going into my bus smelters (for iron plates, steel, copper, and stone bricks), but the only thing currently attached to the bus is my belts/splitters/underground belts logistics array which is currently overproducing those items in anticipation of me expanding the bus assembly process.

I think I can wean power generation and limit the ores getting sent over to the smelting array in the hopes of dialing back pollution. In the mean time I need to beef up my lower-right wall with significant red ammo, and set up an automated red ammo-distribution to the two wall segments in question.

Looking back on things, my errors would seem to be setting up too much power generation too early and also setting up such a significant smelting array before it was actually necessary.

Hopefully I won't need to revert back to an earlier save to get myself out of this mess, but that's the ultra fall-back plan if it comes to it.

The Meal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:01 pm (yellow ammo is iron-only, red ammo uses lots of yellow ammo, along with copper and steel as its components).

Not sure it will help much, but each Red Ammo only takes one Yellow Ammo (but also one Steel (5 Iron) and 5 Copper). If you've got the Steel and Copper, Red makes a huge difference.

At your point, though, I usually run for lasers. They require more energy, which leads to more pollution, but once built, they are so much more sustainable. I would try pushing my walls out to block above A and then cut off the narrow passage above your eastern most south facing arrow (I think that's right). That will net you the oil you need and reduce your exposed wall area. For the same reason, I'd push your middle southern wall down to the land neck. You don't really need the land, but having a smaller surface area will let you free up ammo for other areas.

Just some unrequested for thoughts.

I was really wanting feedback!

My original thought was to fight for land with the oil (with cut-offs exactly where you suggest), but I'm not there yet. In the general case I also bee-line to lasers (which need oil for the batteries) before I really give the full-pushback on the biters. Maybe there's a chance I close off the small land bridge between A & B with turrets, put a base around the oil, and go to town with lasers before taking out the bases around A. I tried turret creeping in on the base cluster to the East of my A and that didn't go so well, so the map you're seeing is actually a revert to my last save before I died. I'm sure if I practiced it a few times I'd get better...

I know my next step has to be to shore things up at the wall down by D, so my plan is:
1. Red Ammo in decent numbers at SE wall.
2. Cut coal/wood source to last N boilers to prevent extra pollution from power generation.
3. Throttle back on ore going towards bus smelters.
The real fun begins with what I do for Step 4. My previous post leaned towards building up red ammo production and distribution, but now I'm thinking about trying to grab oil and seeing where I can take things from there.

I'll probably go through those first three steps and see where things stand after that...

As always, feedback is extremely welcome. That's part of the appeal of this game — playing it is fun, but thinking about playing it is almost nearly as much fun.

This is one reason I always push hard for nuclear. It's a hassle to get setup, but it's a literally a lifesaver in terms of reducing pollution output in the midgame.

Is that oil north of your central, northern defensive line? Any chance of pushing up to that to extract some oil and setting up flamethrowers? Those are very efficient at thinning biter numbers.

Now we're talkin'! That's not something I considered (but should have!), but makes a ton of sense. I could support my other walls with red ammo (by hand), but set up FT's on my major front line.



I like it.

(And I won't be shying away from nuclear, but I didn't want to make a big push for various sciences until I got my bus up and running, and this pollution thing has derailed that process, hopefully temporarily.)

I did make the three changes I posted about last time, and took another screengrab, but it must take some time for pollution to settle down (I was able to set my power generation to 1-5-10, so half of where I was).


I'm sure I'll find some time this weekend to dig out of this morass...

So I recombobulated my tech queue (I was about 80% done with Solar, but I put the FT and FT-prereqs at the top of the list):


I then set up Red and Green science on my bus (not going for any major science rates in my initial bus as I intend to go megabase down the line, so no need to go crazy at this stage). That got me through oil processing (and the pump jacks). Interspersed with that were a few ammo refill missions to my two major front line walls. It was very tense. While I was near the oil field, I did plunk down 4 pumpjacks and a storage tank.

I then set up for military science (required for the flame thrower turrets themselves), which require grenades (fortunately I already had coal on my bus), red ammo, and walls. The walls were the limiting factor to getting the 50 military science packs, as I'm mostly diverting my stone ore into landfill (for obvious reasons), and so the stone bricks coming out of my smelters is a but a trickle. I did get my science packs made (eventually), but in the meantime I set up to make engine units in my starter area (not because I knew the FT turrets needed them, but because I wanted to have a few pumps available for moving the crude oil around). By this point I had to expand power use a few notches to the 1-7-14 setting.

But armed with a stack of engine units and other base level materials, I was able to hand craft 5-10 flameturret throwers and plunk them down on my two major front lines (conveniently on either side of my oil field). And oh yeah, that makes a huge difference. My + wall slower-downer-thingees™ don't love being in the FT crossfire, but they're a small casualty for basically mowing down insurgent waves of any size.

Pollution is still an issue. I've queued my research along towards lasers (which require blue science) and have dropped the crude oil down to my main bus. I'm eager to try to take care of the significant base to the west of my oil field, but I'm not action-y enough to make any inroads without the natives immediately repelling me. Hopefully the FTs on the walls will be sufficient for me to hold them off until lasers come on line.


(You can see my feeble attempt at a pillbox that didn't really accomplish anything.)

Nuclear settled in and rockets are launching on occasion.

My world is getting big enough that I really need to start relearning the logistics bot net and I am sure once I do, I'll be like "why didn't this forever ago?"

Also as I'm beginning to have to move a bit set up/check on mining, it's probably time to relearning trains.

I really didn't plan for an organized growth, so I keep shifting my entire production chain to fit in more of something I needed up stream. Cut and paste is awesome (as is copy and paste).

stessier wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:59 pm

The Meal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:01 pm (yellow ammo is iron-only, red ammo uses lots of yellow ammo, along with copper and steel as its components).

Not sure it will help much, but each Red Ammo only takes one Yellow Ammo (but also one Steel (5 Iron) and 5 Copper). If you've got the Steel and Copper, Red makes a huge difference.

At your point, though, I usually run for lasers.

I try and push for lasers as quickly as possible too. Managing an array of belt-fed machine guns becomes far more "expensive" in resources than collecting some steam or sunlight in a battery.

The biggest thing you can do to keep combat costs down, though, is either pollution control or clearing biters out from the layer of pollution around your base. If they're not being polluted, the biter nests merely send out recon/expansion patrols from time to time instead of determined assaults. A single layer of turrets can last a very long time against wandering biters, but crumples repeatedly to waves.

That last bit is part of why I spent the weekend clearing space around my base. Along maybe 60% of my borders now, the pollution spreads freely and dissipates harmlessly into the ground. I pushed my turret walls back substantially, expanding my territory by maybe 50% or more. That Spiderbot. Man, what a wonder.

I'm up to Energy Damage 7 and my PD array that spreads out from my Spiderbot melts Biters nicely. So do my fixed turrets. What a big difference each step past 5 made. Energy Damage 5 is the last one I could get before shooting satellites into space.

I'm up to 5 launches now! They're entirely automated after the first, and moving very slowly. My first focus is to expand and eliminate the biter attacks that were costing me so much in resources - both in power and replacement parts. Once that's under control all I need to do is build out a few more mines and then start looking for bottlenecks... and more bottlenecks and more bottlenecks.

For giggles, too, I also set up a 3.7k array of solar panels with accompanying accumulators. It's supplying maybe 1/3 of the total power my factories use. First I made a block of panels and accumulators that fit within the space of a Roboport, but not beyond it. I think it was 150 panels to 126 accumulators - or close to. I think I had 4 accumulators left over once I had everything packed as tightly as I could get it. Then I stamped that into a 5x5 grid and let construction bots start whittling away at it, pulling parts from chests as needed.

Yep, I was hoping the flamethrower turrets could get me through to the Laser era, but now I'm thinking I wouldn't make it. I'd have to have my walls hold off waves of attacks throughout all of my blue science set-up, which would then require me to set up full oil refinery (blue science needs sulfur directly, and plastics indirectly through red circuits; and lasers require batteries). I honestly don't see me surviving that.

I've also concluded that I need to push back the bases in the pollution. I'm not skilled enough at the twitch aspects of the game to pull that off, so I figure I'll need some sort of technological assistance. Defender Capsules (and a couple levels of Follower Robot Count) are within range of Red+Blue+Military science packs, so that's my next bee line. Maybe with some bot assistance I can make the required push-back and get back to playing at a more enjoyable pace.

The Meal wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:02 amI'm not skilled enough at the twitch aspects of the game to pull that off, so I figure I'll need some sort of technological assistance. Defender Capsules (and a couple levels of Follower Robot Count) are within range of Red+Blue+Military science packs, so that's my next bee line. Maybe with some bot assistance I can make the required push-back and get back to playing at a more enjoyable pace.

My combat experience in the game's phases comes up to:

1. Machine gun turrets to protect my critical structures without walls, scattered around my factory.
2. Machine gun turrets mounted behind a single layer of walls around my factory.
3. Machine gun turrets built near biter bases to wipe them out with my own submachine gun.
4. Laser turrets built behind double layers of walls around my factory.
5. Using laser turret fortifications and luring biters to them.
6. Using the Tank to gun down biter bases with explosive shells, machine gun fire, and ramming damage.
7. Using the Tank to run circles around biter bases with power armor providing Personal Defense Laser fire.
8. Use Artillery to wipe out biter bases and expand my walls.
9. Using Spidertron to dance through biter bases with PD lasers wiping everything out.

I've never used the Defender Capsules and found that while Flamer turrets were really effective, feeding them a flow of liquids got old fast even with trains managing it. My time spent planning artillery bombardment would have been better spent in the Spidertron. I feel a fool for wasting time making all of that with Spidertron just one step past it.

The combat order could use a revamp to make everything useful at different stages. As it stands, when you get Artillery it's pretty much immediately made obsolete by the Spidertron. I felt the same way about flamer turrets. They're nice, but the hassle of fueling them made them inferior to laser turrets.

Machine gun turrets to start > Buggy with machine gun > flamer turrets (unpowered, with fuel canisters instead of fluid lines) > (add unpowered mortars) > laser turrets > (add a medium armored car with non-explosive shells) > artillery > tank (with explosive shells) > and finally spidertron as the pinnacle.

Then you could go out into the wastes and drop a bunker with machine guns, flamers, and mortars that could tackle biter bases, while using lasers and artillery for long-term engagements (home defense).

I dunno. Just thoughts. The core of the game for me isn't about combat, but the times when it had to be done I wished it was a little more varied.

The Meal wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:02 amI've also concluded that I need to push back the bases in the pollution.

The janky Radar array: looking at the map and seeing a tiny pockets where pollution is being absorbed faster than the surrounding area. This told me twice last night that I missed a biter base (or a new one was spawned) in areas I had thought were clear. The third time I went charging over to kill the new biters it turned out to be a grove of trees.