The Randomness of the Pen and the Paper

[Blackhawk]

Also, all of the thinking back to those old experiences makes me want to roll some damned dice! Thanks, Trump.

[GreenGoo]

How many folks here play tabletop RPGs online via Fantasy Grounds / Roll20 / Foundry? Or rather, how many would be interested in playing online?

If we had an OO group, I would likely want to play. I'm less keen on playing with complete strangers, but as I said, an OO group would be something I would be interested in, assuming there is room.

On a side note, I'd be willing to try just about any rpg, although if we're going to play fantasy I would prefer D&D, just because I know a little about the game now.

[Redfive]

How many folks here play tabletop RPGs online via Fantasy Grounds / Roll20 / Foundry? Or rather, how many would be interested in playing online?

I've played on both Roll20 and Foundry. I've run games on Roll20 and MapTool, and I've set up games on Foundry that I've never played (due to group implosion.) My personal preference? Foundry. It's business model is much, much friendlier to everyone (it works like Tabletop Simulator, where all of the content is player created mods, vs the "buy everything again" approach that the others use), and I've found it's more powerful. The only downside is that it takes a little more work to learn/set up. It's like comparing Paint and Photoshop - Paint is easier to use, but Photoshop is more powerful.

I toyed with the idea of doing the whole thing via Fantasy Grounds or Roll20, but I don't think I want my folks around the table looking at screens the whole time. They're already looking at the screens a ton since we're using D&DB for characters. But maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe it would level the playing field for the other players to do everything online and put the maps, etc up on the big screen. Dunno.

One thing that I've done in the past in similar circumstances is set up my laptop as the 'GM', and set up a second PC running through my TV near the table as a 'player' (basically functioning as a player's POV.) The TV/player account is mostly passive, and is mostly just there so that everyone can see the map. It's a large TV, and sits right next to the table, so everyone can see it clearly.

When I did it, it was for a fully in-person group, serving primarily to manage the maps/fog of war. I, as the GM, set up a single token to represent the entire party (with a couple of extras if they split), and moved it around (from my laptop) according to their instructions. The only time I had to interact with the 'player' PC was to occasionally recenter the view. The whole point was to show larger maps and what was and was not visible without having to print/draw on the table, both of which were a hassle, and slowed down the actual gameplay. Encounters would actually be played on the table the old-fashioned way, with maps on mats sketched out in dry-erase.

It would be fairly simple to set up something similar. You set up a TV/computer near the table where everyone can see it running your VTT (Virtual Tabletop), and you have tokens for each player. The remote players connect normally and can move their tokens around, while you (as the GM) are connected from your laptop and move the local players tokens according to their instructions. For the local players, they'd just be seeing the TV as the map and playing normally (without their faces in their own devices), while for the remote players, you'd be leveling the playing field. They'd see exactly the same map as everyone else, while a camera would capture the rest of the group for them to talk to. You could even have the remote players' camera feeds on the TV, too.

The only limitation I can see is that, since there would be only one screen for all of the local players, you wouldn't be able to use individual fog-of-war, the effect where each player only sees what their character could see, like shadows behind pillars (this effect, as displayed in Foundry.) You'd have to either manually reveal one room at a time (which only takes seconds - you set up the fog of war during prep by basically drawing it in, then simply right click each section and remove it), or by creating a couple of invisible tokens that share their view with the players and moving them where necessary, revealing it to everyone.)

You could run the encounters either via the VTT (although that would be hassle, having to keep each character updated on the VTT and having to make each roll yourself), or the old fashioned way via dice (and Zoom.) Although the connected players could certainly use the VTT's dice rolling function so that everyone could see their rolls on the screen.

It isn't nearly as fiddly as it sounds - it's basically just running one aspect of the game (the maps) through a VTT, and playing the rest normally. Once you do an experiment or two with the TV and laptop to get the setup and controls down, it becomes super easy.

My group switched about a year ago to Foundry VTT from Fantasy Grounds, right at the same time as we switched from 5e to PF2E. I have tons of experience running games on Fantasy Grounds and nothing but a run through (as a GM) on Foundry because I stepped back from DM'ing when we switched platforms.

[Redfive]

How many folks here play tabletop RPGs online via Fantasy Grounds / Roll20 / Foundry? Or rather, how many would be interested in playing online?

If we had an OO group, I would likely want to play. I'm less keen on playing with complete strangers, but as I said, an OO group would be something I would be interested in, assuming there is room.

On a side note, I'd be willing to try just about any rpg, although if we're going to play fantasy I would prefer D&D, just because I know a little about the game now.

Yeah, was just curious. A group of 1 won't get it done I don't think

[GreenGoo]

I promise to know more of the rules next time, should it ever come.

[Redfive]

I promise to know more of the rules next time, should it ever come.

You are most welcome. I will give you a heads up if the opportunity arises.

[YellowKing]

I would definitely be interested as well, the only sticking point being finding the time. That's why I've considered joining some forum D&D campaigns on BGG. A buddy of mine has done that for a year or two and enjoys it a great deal.

[Redfive]

I would definitely be interested as well, the only sticking point being finding the time. That's why I've considered joining some forum D&D campaigns on BGG. A buddy of mine has done that for a year or two and enjoys it a great deal.

Finding a time that everyone can (and will) meet consistently is the biggest issue easily and is one of the reasons I had to take a hiatus from DM'ing. We typically play Friday nights from 9-12ish CST and now that my daughter is on the high school dance team, Friday night football clashes.

[TheMix]

I'd be interested.

[Zarathud]

I would be interested in 5E or Call of Cthulhu depending on timing.

[Blackhawk]

I'm potentially interested, but it does depend on the system and time.

[hentzau]

D&D Beyond has just released their Maps Alpha...a simple map/token/fog of war setup that will eventually have all of the maps from any of their published adventures. Coming out of the gate with Phandelver and Below, as you would expect. I've been resisting going to a VTT, but if this is simple enough, I may move to it. I have a game tonight, hybrid with some folks in person and some folks via zoom. So, I dunno. I love moving figures around on the tables I set up, it's the wargamer in me. But everyone is using D&D Beyond for the characters, and the remote folks (and one in person) are rolling the dice via D&DB, so...maybe???

[GreenGoo]

The problem with WotC and VTT is that it will almost certainly be a service with monthly fees and DLCs etc. Skins for your virtual dice and whatever. There is no limit to what they will paywall and charge for. Worse, they are likely to yank your access to things you've already paid for if you stop your subscription. I'm not sure how far they will go at the start, but the end is a hellscape of fees and microtransactions.

I get the appeal of a quality VTT. I absolutely do. I imagined a computerized version of D&D practically from the first time I played it.

But this is going to be bad for the game and the community. Those will plenty of disposable cash are likely to love it.

I don't know how things are going to go south in the future, but it just seems like a bad idea. In the meantime, enjoy. It looks super cool, no sarcasm.

[Blackhawk]

FWIW, other VTTs have already-designed modules ready for purchase, and others often have them as third-party mods. These tend to have all of the maps, stats, adventure content, tokens, and any scripting required already done. You just download and click 'play.'

/edit - and I'm right there with GG when it comes to WotC. They've earned a reputation that puts them next EA/Ubisoft when it comes to monetizing and consumer hostility.

[GreenGoo]

FWIW, other VTTs have already-designed modules ready for purchase, an others often have them as third-party mods. These tend to have all of the maps, stats, adventure content, tokens, and any scripting required already done. You just download and click 'play.'

Who owns these "purchased" modules?

Anyway, my point is that WotC will be "licensing" these products, revokeable on a whim. I think we are in agreement on this one.

[Redfive]

FWIW, other VTTs have already-designed modules ready for purchase, an others often have them as third-party mods. These tend to have all of the maps, stats, adventure content, tokens, and any scripting required already done. You just download and click 'play.'

Who owns these "purchased" modules?

Anyway, my point is that WotC will be "licensing" these products, revokeable on a whim. I think we are in agreement on this one.

The ones you get from Fantasy Grounds are 'yours', I.E. they won't ever go away. I can only speak as a DM that has the 'ulitmate' package and no ongoing sub.

[GreenGoo]

Yes, that's why 3rd party VTT's aren't comparable. At least Fantasy Grounds isn't. No one is bleeding you month after month.

All the VTT's may seem similar, but there are key differences, like actually owning the software vs. licensing. And yes I know, all software is licensed, but some are more restrictive than others.

[Redfive]

I know for Foundry VTT you pay one time, $50 for the license and then it's yours in perpetuity.

There are premium modules, which I expect work the same as FG. Once you buy it it's 'yours'.

I can't speak to DND Beyond, but my expectation would be the same as yours as far as access if you stop subscribing.

There is a lot to be said for premium VTT modules. Everything is included: maps, NPCs, monsters, art, etc. It plugs right into the VTT and you are good to go. You played in 5E Rage of Demons Out of the Abyss with us for those weeks you played.

I tend to modify the content of the modules for my homebrew, but that is also one of the strengths of a VTT. It's very easy to do.

[Blackhawk]

All of Pinnacle's RPG products (Savage Worlds) that are sold via Kickstarter usually come with full VTT modules as an add-on (I have a few Deadlands packs for Foundry because of that), and I can only assume that some others do, too. And there are tons of map Kickstarters, and even more free maps intended primarily for use with them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmaps/
https://www.reddit.com/r/FantasyMaps/

A lot of VTTs also allow the use of video files for the map, and there are a few people that produce a ton of them (a lot on Patreon/etc.) Some of these examples are for a Patreon (which is why they have markings and a logo), but I've seen lots of free ones, and this gives you an idea. They're typically short loops.







Phandelver, anyone?

[GreenGoo]

There is a lot to be said for premium VTT modules. Everything is included: maps, NPCs, monsters, art, etc. It plugs right into the VTT and you are good to go. You played in 5E Rage of Demons Out of the Abyss with us for those weeks you played.

Yes, at some point in my 5e roamings I realized we had played Out of the Abyss. I think it was Zuggtmoy that gave it away. I don't have Out of the Abyss and haven't read it, but I played long enough to know some of the context and content.

I would expect one of the strengths of a VTT is the ability to play remotely. This is a godsend for anyone who wants to play but has no one local, or if they need to be home with the baby or whatnot.

I also love the quality of artwork that is always improving in VTT's. Some complaints are that the maps and tokens etc take away from the theater of the mind, and I think that's true to a certain extent, but for me it helps inspire my imagination to actually see the shape of the cavern, or the range of the baddies and where an AoE spell is going to land.

And obviously having a searchable, electronic version of everything is beyond helpful for DM's. Everything neat and tidy and clickable, tables easily accessible, etc etc. I think that even DM's who run it on a physical table could really benefit from having a VTT running behind the DM's screen.

Anyway, I'm not opposed to VTT's, far from it. It's WotC that I have a problem with. WotC's behaviour during the retroactive re-licensing was reprehensible, and their disdain for their customers was palpable. I don't even have a stake in the game, as most of my interest is purely academic (you know what I mean), and I was repulsed. I can't imagine what content creators felt. WotC destroyed a lot of good-will in the span of weeks. It will take years to earn that back, if ever, if they even want to bother.

[GreenGoo]

I see there are tools for automating time keeping, which I recall being a major pain when I DM'd back in the day. Important for lots of reasons, but less than fun to track.

I don't know how good these tools are, but that they exist is amazing.

[Blackhawk]

I also love the quality of artwork that is always improving in VTT's. Some complaints are that the maps and tokens etc take away from the theater of the mind, and I think that's true to a certain extent, but for me it helps inspire my imagination to actually see the shape of the cavern, or the range of the baddies and where an AoE spell is going to land.

You can absolutely use VTTs to play pure TotM. Nothing says that you need maps, or sound, or animations, or even detailed tokens (miniatures.) You can just use a blank screen with squares, or scan in some maps hand-drawn on graph paper, or whatever you like, and just use the VTT to keep track of the rules.

[Redfive]

Phandelver, anyone?

Welcome to the campaign!

Time to die!

[Blackhawk]

That was such a tricky encounter to put in there for first time GMs. It was so, so easy for it to go wrong.

That, and a certain tower in a certain ruin.

[GreenGoo]

Welcome to the campaign!

Time to die!

Welcome to D&D! You don't know what a d20 is? Well, here's a tactical scenario that will kill you or not based on this one arrow's random damage. Oh, and you're surprised.

Enjoy!

[Blackhawk]

GMs in that encounter should be trying really, really hard to make sure that players aren't surprised, and to make sure that at least one enemy is within reach of a player the first turn. It's possible to wipe a smaller party before they even get to take a turn.

One trick is to tweak the description to make it clear that there are areas that they can't see (emphasize the thick bushes and looming overhangs), and then make sure to ask them if they're all approaching, or if some are staying back (if the group's really green, you can even phrase it like, "...or are some of you staying back to watch for threats?" And given the arrows in the horses, it's easy to justify giving them advantage on any surprise checks - they certainly know that there's a threat around, and that they're standing in a location where ambushes have been successfully carried out.

But if you go full surprise and put the goblins two rounds of movement away from the players? Yeah, that isn't going to go well.

[GreenGoo]

It's an ambush. You have to go out of your way to keep your players alive. I've seen some people recommend a single use magic item that gives everyone aid. I like this solution, but I do find it a bit heavy handed with the deus ex machina.

I'd probably change the encounter completely and make the goblins too cowardly to fight unless cornered. And careless. Yeah, I'd just remove the ambush completely. Possibly a chase scenario.

I do find it funny that this is the very first combat encounter. Talk about tossing fresh meat into the cauldron.

[Blackhawk]

Getting rid of one ranged goblin would help. Or simply having one of them screw up and step on a dry twig. But I wouldn't ever make it clear that I was 'helping' the players. If they win, they'll feel like they didn't earn it. For a first fight, that's not a good way to go. I like to play honestly - when GMing, I even got a clear-sided dice tray and switched to a set of Koplow jumbo dice so that any rolls would be fully readable for everyone at the table.



An experienced GM has ways of tweaking encounters - even during the fight - that don't involve anything so obvious as turning hits into misses.

[hentzau]

I just ran this encounter a week ago. Party handled it well, I didn't pull any punches. The only concession I gave them was that I had one group of goblins attack one round before the second one, so that reduced the number of attacks coming in one round.

But yeah, first level is scary. A critical and a good damage roll can be a really bad day for a character.

[Blackhawk]

A critical and a good damage roll can be a really bad day for a character.

Especially since my house rule was that on critical hits, the first damage die is maxed (instead of a 1d8 becoming 2d8, it becomes 8+1d8.) It's miserable when a player is in a tough situation, rolls a critical hit, everyone at the table cheers, the player rolls 2d8 and gets... 1 and 2, a third of an average roll. I hate taking away something that the players feel they've earned. Critical hits, in my opinion, should always be better than regular hits.

This is one of those rules, though, where I always present it to the players for discussion and approval first, as if it applies to them, it applies to enemies, too.

[Redfive]

I see there are tools for automating time keeping, which I recall being a major pain when I DM'd back in the day. Important for lots of reasons, but less than fun to track.

I don't know how good these tools are, but that they exist is amazing.

It has been used with limited success by the people currently running our games. From my experience as a player it has been nothing but tedium which also reflects my very loose method of timekeeping as a DM.

[Blackhawk]

So, apparently D&D has a 24-7 streaming channel now. It's on Amazon's FreeVee (which is a royal bitch to navigate, then you don't seem to be able to bookmark or link it), and on Plex - this link may work.

I only found it because Wil Wheaton posted about a show he did on it with Seth Green.

[GreenGoo]

I like the dude in the thumbnail and I think it's crime he doesn't get more work. He was the only guy in the Scooby Doo movies that understood the assignment, and did a great job with what he was given.

Yes, I had heard about the 24/7 streaming. I suppose I will look at it eventually.

[Zarathud]

Matthew Lillard (aka Shaggy) is co-founder of a D&D accessory company Beadle & Grimms. Very expensive but nice if your D&D campaign is your life.

[Blackhawk]

I can't see myself sitting and watching most of these (partially because it's scheduled TV), but it might make great background watching if I'm painting.

FWIW, it's much easier to find on Plex than it is on Amazon. I still haven't found it on Amazon!

[GreenGoo]

Matthew Lillard (aka Shaggy) is co-founder of a D&D accessory company Beadle & Grimms. Very expensive but nice if your D&D campaign is your life.

I did not know that. I play Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms and Beadle and Grimms are a character in that (yes, they are both the same character, that swaps out for each other).

[YellowKing]

My wife bought me the full set of Call of Cthulhu solo RPG books for Christmas, and then I bought the big Humble Bundle set of Call of Cthulhu RPG books last week. That definitely got me in the mood to run a few adventures. I played CoC quite heavily back in the day, almost more than D&D, due to the fact that one of my best high school buddies was a Lovecraft fanatic. We'd have sleepovers at his house and run all-night sessions.

Cut to modern times and that same buddy and I still keep in touch, and we've picked up a couple of new friends along the way that are really into horror. We all live in different states, but I'm considering running a scenario or two online to see how it goes. 2 of the 4 are brand new to roleplaying games, but they're creative, smart guys that I think will pick it up really quickly. Especially CoC, which is far less rules-heavy than D&D and focuses more on the storytelling side.

Any suggestions on tools to use? I have all the source material in PDF format so that's not an issue. I don't really want to spend a bunch of money on a dedicated product like Fantasy Grounds since I don't know yet if they'll like it or if this will turn into a long-term commitment. So I'm thinking we may just do a simple Zoom or Google Hangouts call.

[hentzau]

My wife bought me the full set of Call of Cthulhu solo RPG books for Christmas, and then I bought the big Humble Bundle set of Call of Cthulhu RPG books last week. That definitely got me in the mood to run a few adventures. I played CoC quite heavily back in the day, almost more than D&D, due to the fact that one of my best high school buddies was a Lovecraft fanatic. We'd have sleepovers at his house and run all-night sessions.

Cut to modern times and that same buddy and I still keep in touch, and we've picked up a couple of new friends along the way that are really into horror. We all live in different states, but I'm considering running a scenario or two online to see how it goes. 2 of the 4 are brand new to roleplaying games, but they're creative, smart guys that I think will pick it up really quickly. Especially CoC, which is far less rules-heavy than D&D and focuses more on the storytelling side.

Any suggestions on tools to use? I have all the source material in PDF format so that's not an issue. I don't really want to spend a bunch of money on a dedicated product like Fantasy Grounds since I don't know yet if they'll like it or if this will turn into a long-term commitment. So I'm thinking we may just do a simple Zoom or Google Hangouts call.

I've been running a combined in person/online game for about half a year now (D&D). We just use Zoom for it, because I've got a Zoom account for Scouts (but I may be dropping that because we don't meet often at all on Zoom.) I use a multi-camera set up for it, with one camera (webcam) on the group that is meeting locally and one camera (phone joined to the zoom meeting) above the table looking down at the maps and miniatures. I'll sometimes throw a third phone/camera down on the tabletop to give a ground level view to the remote players.

We talked about doing a VTT, but everyone pretty soundly said no to that idea because they liked looking at my minis and terrain. CoC is mostly theater of the mind, as I recall, so you may be able to get away with just using Zoom/Hangouts.

[Blackhawk]

Any suggestions on tools to use? I have all the source material in PDF format so that's not an issue. I don't really want to spend a bunch of money on a dedicated product like Fantasy Grounds since I don't know yet if they'll like it or if this will turn into a long-term commitment. So I'm thinking we may just do a simple Zoom or Google Hangouts call.

FWIW, CoC, like most games, is free for Foundry. link You'd still have to buy one copy of the program itself, which is $50 for a lifetime, and like I said - the rules for most games are free. It's also less... counterintuitive than Fantasy Grounds.

I don't know the game at all, so you'd need to check that it's the same edition.

[Zarathud]

VTT can allow players to quickly make a roll or look up stats on their character sheet. When my kids were playing D&D through Roll20, we got much further in game sessions than when they're in person. They quickly figured out how to make skill checks using their character sheets.