Police Reform in America

[$iljanus]

I’d be curious about how British police in the equivalent situation handle these sorts of situations, especially since knives are more prevalent than guns in Great Britain and only certain units carry guns. That’s not to say that they haven’t used lethal force at times.

[Isgrimnur]

Do British Police Tactics Work For Knife-Wielding Subjects?

[Grifman]

Do British Police Tactics Work For Knife-Wielding Subjects?

You beat me to this by about 30 seconds. If only there was a search engine where we could look these things up

[Isgrimnur]

You trying to put me out of a job?

[malchior]

Do British Police Tactics Work For Knife-Wielding Subjects?

The number of officers injured using the British technique has never been adequately evaluated, since the UK’s Home Office does not publish official statistics on this metric.[10] However, the technique’s similarity to bull-baiting suggests the risk level is unacceptably high and thus makes the technique unsuitable for American police officers.

"In the absence of specific data I will instead substitute my opinion" complete with ridiculous comparison to dog fighting.

If you care about data, the number of officers killed in the UK is...one last year and they were shot. There have been two fatal stabbings in ~fifteen years and one was during the Westminster terrorist attack and had nothing to do with 'bull-baiting'. In the latest reported period (2018) they killed a total of three people.

[$iljanus]

Do British Police Tactics Work For Knife-Wielding Subjects?

The number of officers injured using the British technique has never been adequately evaluated, since the UK’s Home Office does not publish official statistics on this metric.[10] However, the technique’s similarity to bull-baiting suggests the risk level is unacceptably high and thus makes the technique unsuitable for American police officers.

"In the absence of specific data I will instead substitute my opinion" complete with ridiculous comparison to dog fighting.

If you care about data, the number of officers killed in the UK is...one last year and they were shot. There have been two fatal stabbings in ~fifteen years and one was during the Westminster terrorist attack and had nothing to do with 'bull-baiting'. In the latest reported period (2018) they killed a total of three people.

Simply put, the value of our law officers’ lives trumps that of dangerous criminals – we don’t do human bull-baiting.

I read through the article and I’m not denying his law enforcement experience but I don’t think that the UK police values the lives of their officers any less than we do. Also I’m little leery about his suggestion of “wounding force” as an option, using an officer with a AR-15 some feet away who would aim at a suspect’s arm or leg.

[Kurth]

Before Tasers, cops used their billy clubs. Tasers were designed to replace or reduce their use. I don't think Tasers changed anything.

I have no data, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tasers did change things up. I suspect a situation is much, MUCH more likely to go from Taser -> gun than it is to go from club -> gun. Heck, the former appears to happen accidentally in a way that is just impossible with a billy club.

Yeah. This was the point and the argument behind the theory that Tasers have led to more, not less, unjustified shootings.

[malchior]

WaPo

I was at work as a police officer when the verdict was read Tuesday in the Minneapolis courtroom. I am a violent-crimes detective in my hometown of Savannah, Ga., but like the rest of America, I was worried about the verdict. I was worried that once again, a jury would, despite clear video evidence of guilt, find it was somehow reasonable for a minor criminal matter to end in the death of the unarmed suspect at the hands of a police officer.

But I was also worried that we would view the verdict as the conclusion of a trial and not the beginning of change. Because as powerful as the murder conviction of former police officer Derek Chauvin is, what we do next — as a country in general but as police in particular — will go a long way in determining whether systemic positive police reform is possible. It is in this time immediately after the verdict that several things, which are entirely within my control as a police officer, have to happen.

The first thing is actually something that needs to not happen: Police must not be defensive. We must not circle the wagons. “Not all cops” is exactly the wrong reaction. Even though that is true — of course not all cops are bad — it is also irrelevant. Systemic reform is inseparable from individual change. We need both, and they have to feed off each other. There will be a natural desire by police, myself included, to say that the system worked, that Chauvin was found guilty by a jury of his peers and that a bad apple was sent to jail, no longer around to rot the bunch. Again, this is true, but it is also irrelevant. A nation so tense about a single trial, so uncertain about what was going to happen, is a nation in desperate need of much more. And we all have to take a first step. For me, the first step is that I need to take this verdict personally if I am to change professionally.

Here’s the second thing that needs to happen: We police need to fight the destructive reaction we have resorted to before, saying that if we can’t do our job the way we have always done our job, well then, we won’t do our job at all. We might still collect a paycheck, but we will stop a lot of work because of an exaggerated fear of running afoul of the “new rules.” Rules such as “Don’t treat your neighbors like robots of compliance,” “Don’t escalate trivial matters into life-or-death matters,” and “Treat your neighbors as if they were your neighbors.” That anyone would consider these rules “new” is a problem in itself. Few police officers reading them aloud would take issue with such anodyne statements, but put accountability behind the statements and now they’re an attack, not just on all police but the very foundation of American policing.

[LordMortis]

Police must not be defensive. We must not circle the wagons. “Not all cops” is exactly the wrong reaction. Even though that is true — of course not all cops are bad — it is also irrelevant.

This confirms a long held bias of mine, so it must be true.

[LawBeefaroni]

Before Tasers, cops used their billy clubs. Tasers were designed to replace or reduce their use. I don't think Tasers changed anything.

I have no data, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tasers did change things up. I suspect a situation is much, MUCH more likely to go from Taser -> gun than it is to go from club -> gun. Heck, the former appears to happen accidentally in a way that is just impossible with a billy club.

My understanding and belief is along these lines as well.

Mostly because the taser is viewed as a replacement for the gun and if it doesn't work, time for the gun. With a club, you can club harder. Plus you commit to the hands-on approach. With a taser you remain at gun distances and enter the gun mentality.

But asking them to go to the club is asking them to put their lives in greater danger. Not sure how we do that.

I have actually been thinking about this a lot and I think the solution may be a more lethal taser. Not because I want to see the taser be more lethal but because I want to see it be more effective. Heavier, higher powered barbs, multiple shots. Because as it is now, a failed taser can almost be always used as justification for lethal force and they fail a lot. Fewer failures means fewer shootings.

Officers never pull a taser with confidence that it will stop someone and train to drop it and go to gun when it doesn't work. That's why the taser is carried on the weak-hand side of the duty belt.

[Kurth]

Before Tasers, cops used their billy clubs. Tasers were designed to replace or reduce their use. I don't think Tasers changed anything.

I have no data, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tasers did change things up. I suspect a situation is much, MUCH more likely to go from Taser -> gun than it is to go from club -> gun. Heck, the former appears to happen accidentally in a way that is just impossible with a billy club.

My understanding and belief is along these lines as well.

Mostly because the taser is viewed as a replacement for the gun and if it doesn't work, time for the gun. With a club, you can club harder. Plus you commit to the hands-on approach. With a taser you remain at gun distances and enter the gun mentality.

But asking them to go to the club is asking them to put their lives in greater danger. Not sure how we do that.

I have actually been thinking about this a lot and I think the solution may be a more lethal taser. Not because I want to see the taser be more lethal but because I want to see it be more effective. Heavier, higher powered barbs, multiple shots. Because as it is now, a failed taser can almost be always used as justification for lethal force and they fail a lot. Fewer failures means fewer shootings.

Officers never pull a taser with confidence that it will stop someone and train to drop it and go to gun when it doesn't work. That's why the taser is carried on the weak-hand side of the duty belt.

I might be ok with this if this were a trade: You get a more lethal Taser, but you lose your firearm.

Somehow, I don't think that's going to fly, though.

And, honestly, when there are the number of guns on the street that we have in this country, I'm not sure it's even a reasonable request.

[Smoove_B]

I've been to many, many training seminars. This one sounds...unique.

America’s #1 police trainer tells cops that sex after killing another human “is the best sex,” a “very intense sex,” and one of the “perks that come with the job.”

[malchior]

This is clear on the warrior side of the warrior vs. guardian police policy approaches that have been debated in the US for years.

I’m old enough to have been working with cops before the warrior concept pervaded policing. Back then the officers I knew just considered themselves “cops.”

Then the warrior archetype started pervading the profession followed in recent years by calls that the pendulum needed to swing to a guardian mindset. A quick Google search shows this debate is still getting plenty of attention. It’s a conversation worth having – with all stakeholders at the table – so let me draw your attention to an article I penned on the topic in 2015. Add your thoughts in the comments below.

In the wake of highly publicized officer-involved shootings and at least 20 cities entering settlements or consent decrees with the Department of Justice for unconstitutional patterns of police practices, the White House created a task force in December 2014 to examine and make recommendations for 21st century policing.

Chaired by a police commissioner and containing other police members, the task force’s report last month urged, “Law enforcement should embrace a guardian – rather than a warrior – mindset to build trust and legitimacy both within agencies and with the public.”

This isn’t a new idea. Many within policing have been urging such a change since before Ferguson. Here’s a précis of the debate on both sides.

[LawBeefaroni]

Ugh, that guy. He also manages to criticize violent video games.

He's great for soldiers going to war. Not so much for your friendly neighborhood LEO.

[hepcat]

Ugh, that guy. He also manages to criticize violent video games.

Surprising as it seems like he'd appreciate the intense sex that comes after killing people in a video game.

[Blackhawk]

I know I'm late to the party on the kids on bikes bit, but has anyone looked up their other videos? They do a hell of a lot more than ride against traffic. Here are some expamples:





That cop in the first video escalated, but these make me really wonder what's under those edits.

[LawBeefaroni]

Bet they got the most views for the persecution video.

[Holman]

City kids SHOWING OFF in city streets? In NEW YORK?? I am OUTRAGED!!!

Those videos are kids flamboyantly prancing but not hurting anyone. None of the passers-by seem even inconvenienced, let alone threatened.

The money shot is a bike on a parked and unoccupied taxi hood, but I doubt that did any damage.

What are we supposed to hate about this? That the Kids Today have sweet moves we never had?

[Holman]

Surprising as it seems like he'd appreciate the intense sex that comes after killing people in a video game.

Get a room, you.

[hepcat]

I did. Now what?

[Jaymann]

I did. Now what?

Hook up some video games, duh.

[hepcat]

[Kurth]

City kids SHOWING OFF in city streets? In NEW YORK?? I am OUTRAGED!!!

Those videos are kids flamboyantly prancing but not hurting anyone. None of the passers-by seem even inconvenienced, let alone threatened.

The money shot is a bike on a parked and unoccupied taxi hood, but I doubt that did any damage.

What are we supposed to hate about this? That the Kids Today have sweet moves we never had?

Yep. Same. Kids being dickbags. I have a 13 year old who would 100% be down with that group. He's a total dickbag half the time (maybe more), but I don't worry about him having an altercation with the police and getting shot over it. Wonder why that is?

[LawBeefaroni]

Is this what defund is supposed to look like?

During the social unrest after George Floyd’s death, peaceful protests became dangerous.

“The call was made originally by the NAACP for community members to come out and help patrol the West Broadway corridor,” Jackson said.

Local residents who say they have permits to carry firearms answered that call.
...

The group says they have a good relationship with Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo.

“We just want our community to understand that they do have somebody they can count on and that we’re here to, you know, create a safer place, a place of peace,” Hartwell said.

Providing security:

More than a dozen men from a local security group, many with rifles, sidearms and wearing body armor, are watching over the funeral for Daunte Wright, the 20-year-old Black man killed last week in the Minneapolis suburb of Brooklyn Center.

[Skinypupy]

What are we supposed to hate about this? That the Kids Today have sweet moves we never had?

Speak for yourself, man. My BMX skills were l33t.

[LawBeefaroni]

City kids SHOWING OFF in city streets? In NEW YORK?? I am OUTRAGED!!!

Those videos are kids flamboyantly prancing but not hurting anyone. None of the passers-by seem even inconvenienced, let alone threatened.

The money shot is a bike on a parked and unoccupied taxi hood, but I doubt that did any damage.

What are we supposed to hate about this? That the Kids Today have sweet moves we never had?

I got chased by cops for doing exactly what they're doing (minus vehicle damage). I knew it was more than being "flamboyant.". The difference was back then we did it for fun, not likes and views. Now the stakes are higher.

FWIW, riding on a car's hood does do damage unless the car was built before 1979 or so.

[malchior]

[Blackhawk]

City kids SHOWING OFF in city streets? In NEW YORK?? I am OUTRAGED!!!

Those videos are kids flamboyantly prancing but not hurting anyone. None of the passers-by seem even inconvenienced, let alone threatened.

The money shot is a bike on a parked and unoccupied taxi hood, but I doubt that did any damage.

What are we supposed to hate about this? That the Kids Today have sweet moves we never had?

Are you kidding me? They almost certainly damaged that car, and if this one was on video, many others weren't. And do you honestly think that if a kid ran out of one of the stores in that mall they'd be able to stop? One of the videos shows one of them losing control and sliding their bike literally within inches of shoppers. What happens when one loses control again, goes that extra six inches, and slides their bike into someone's 80 year old grandmother?

What they were doing wasn't just showing off their mad bike skills. What they are doing is glorying in vandalism and endangering people while videotaping it for the praise and to encourage other kids to follow their example.

[Holman]

I agree that it's not appropriate behavior. I just don't lose my mind when kids act inappropriately.

I may or may not have done similar things in my youth. I suppose I shouldn't have, but here I am.

(For me the main issue is that this kind of thing is presented by scolds as COMPLETE ANARCHY rather than what it is. You probably don't need to dig too deep to find people seriously arguing that an armed pedestrian should have put those kids down for good.)

[Blackhawk]

I can promise you that I did stuff in public at that age that was far, far more dangerous than what they're doing, despite nobody getting hurt or killed. And I absolutely, 100%, was a criminal asshole for it, and I absolutely should have suffered legal consequences. I got lucky in that nobody got hurt, and in that I grew up and gained some compassion and common sense before somebody did. There's a line between kids showing off and kids going too far.

Side note - on the original topic of the stopping of these kids, it was still handled wrong unless there is something we don't know. It had been addressed, then another cop showed up and escalated it into a major issue. But my posting this was more of a statement on their character, enough such that I genuinely have to wonder what was behind some of the edits on the original full video. These (and others like them on the guy's channel) give me reason to doubt the position that they were just out riding with their friends and maybe getting on the wrong side of the road. We may not have the whole story.

[Skinypupy]

Hold on to your butts.

JUST IN: Elizabeth City, North Carolina, has declared a state of emergency ahead of the release of body camera footage of the law enforcement killing of Andrew Brown Jr. last week.

Brown's family is expected to view the footage Monday.

The mayor says law enforcement expects a "period of civil unrest" after the release of the video.

Brown was shot and killed by deputies last week during the execution of a search warrant.

Witnesses said he was driving away at the time.

[malchior]

I can promise you that I did stuff in public at that age that was far, far more dangerous than what they're doing, despite nobody getting hurt or killed. And I absolutely, 100%, was a criminal asshole for it, and I absolutely should have suffered legal consequences. I got lucky in that nobody got hurt, and in that I grew up and gained some compassion and common sense before somebody did. There's a line between kids showing off and kids going too far.

I think it's more important that someone steps up and teaches them the line. If this was mostly white kids they'd be giving them the business, maybe calling their parents, and essentially trying to guide them back on the tracks.

That isn't what happens to a lot of kids like this. The system overreacts, they expose them to institutional reform and consequent violence, and they don't try to help them. They just decide that they aren't worth it. I think we know how that works and how unfortunately true it is.

Side note - on the original topic of the stopping of these kids, it was still handled wrong unless there is something we don't know. It had been addressed, then another cop showed up and escalated it into a major issue. But my posting this was more of a statement on their character, enough such that I genuinely have to wonder what was behind some of the edits on the original full video. These (and others like them on the guy's channel) give me reason to doubt the position that they were just out riding with their friends and maybe getting on the wrong side of the road. We may not have the whole story.

Sure but the fact remains that officer hothead is too often the response they get and a whole less of officer big picture that treated them like people.

[malchior]

Hold on to your butts.

An attorney for the family came out and said the video was heavily redacted down to 20 seconds. I just read that 7 officers were on leave, 2 resigned, and 1 retired since last week so it smells like a shit show.

Edit: Based on the live comments I just heard - this stinks of cover up. The family was shown 20 seconds of body camera footage from 1 of 8 body cams. The 20 seconds began *after the first shots are fired* according to the attorney.

Edit 2: They have claimed also that the local sheriff told them the actually wants to release the footage but that the county attorney made the call.

[malchior]

The autopsy of Anthony Brown Jr. was released. The family's lawyer said he was shot four times in the arm and killed by a shot to the back of his head. In itself it doesn't prove anything but it'll probably put pressure for an investigation and release of contextual information.

[pr0ner]

A woman with a history of filing false complaints against LASD deputies thought it was a good idea to repeatedly call a cop who pulled her over a murderer and a racist and tell him he wanted to be white but he never will be.

Sad to see entitled white privilege and racism alive and well.

[hepcat]

Christ, that cop has the patience of Job. I normally hate social media justice, but even I wouldn’t mind seeing that lady get ostracized for that incredibly racist, shitty behavior. I can only imagine how screwed up the kids she’s teaching are going to be.

[LawBeefaroni]

Christ, that cop has the patience of Job. I normally hate social media justice, but even I wouldn’t mind seeing that lady get ostracized for that incredibly racist, shitty behavior. I can only imagine how screwed up the kids she’s teaching are going to be.

Privilege.


Also,.sometimes people just freak out.

[Holman]

Yesterday Philadelphia had an off-year primary election centered on party choices for District Attorney. (In effect the primary *is* the election, since Dems far outnumber Republicans in the city.)

The current D.A. is Democrat Larry Krasner, who has been a controversial and unapologetic opponent of racist policing and a proponent of justice reform. His challenger was a conservative Democrat with the full-throated support of the police union. Violent crime has been up in Philly (as it has everywhere), and many pundits were predicting a backlash against Krasner and liberals generally.

Instead, it was opposite. Krasner won in a 2-1 landslide. Elsewhere in the state, progressives did much better than expected as well.

[Isgrimnur]

CNBC

A judge sentenced former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin on Friday to 22-and-a-half years in prison for the murder of George Floyd.

That sentence was less than the 40-year maximum
...
But it was a decade more than the presumptive sentence for second-degree murder, the most serious of the three counts for which Chauvin, 45, was convicted at trial in April.

Jurors also convicted him of third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. Prosecutors wanted Chauvin to serve 30 years in prison, while the former cop’s lawyer asked for just probation.

Hennepin County Judge Peter Cahill gave the 18-year- police veteran Chauvin the stiffer punishment than recommended by sentencing guidelines after finding four aggravating factors in his crimes.

Those were Chauvin having abused a position of trust and authority as a cop, having treated Floyd with “particular cruelty,” committing the crime with a group of at least three other people — his fellow police officers — and the fact that children were present during the commission of the offense.

“The sentence is not based on is emotion or sympathy,” said Cahill, who later added that he did not based the sentence on public opinion, or “to send any messages.”

[LawBeefaroni]

Oakland has volunteered to beta:

OAKLAND, Calif. (BCN) – Oakland Police Chief LeRonne Armstrong on Monday lamented city officials’ recent decision to redirect roughly $18 million in proposed police spending over two years, which Armstrong argued will hamstring a police force that is already stretched too thin.

“We find ourselves in a crisis from this decision. We are reeling from a weekend of violence in Oakland. Four homicides over a three-day period happened in Oakland over the weekend, which brought us to 65 homicides for the year. A 90% increase compared to last year.”

In a briefing Monday morning, Armstrong made the case that the change in funding, and reduced ability to hire new officers as a result, would prevent Oakland police from adequately completing even day-to-day tasks like traffic enforcement and responding to emergency calls.

Meanwhile here, CPD is seeing record high retirements and record low recruits. Lt's and commanders are leaving, causing leadership gaps. In addition, suburbs are paying officers a $20K bonus on top of higher salaries to move. Morale is in the basement. And this weekend saw 80 shot, 8 fatally. At least 2 "mass shootings" and several multi-victim shooting. That brings the YTD total to 1,910.