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This seems off to me. It's not a "rich people" thing that Crow appears to fetishize Hitler and possibly other dictators and despots. I don't see the connection you seem to be making here.malchior wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:47 am Rich people just have different, elevated tastes. Who wouldn't want to ponder on the memorabilia of the near ruin of man after or with a glass of Balvenie 30 year in hand?
I read it as sarcasm. As that is often the "excuse" that is made.Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:39 pmThis seems off to me. It's not a "rich people" thing that Crow appears to fetishize Hitler and possibly other dictators and despots. I don't see the connection you seem to be making here.malchior wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:47 am Rich people just have different, elevated tastes. Who wouldn't want to ponder on the memorabilia of the near ruin of man after or with a glass of Balvenie 30 year in hand?
Hmm. Still missing it. What's the "excuse"? That Crow is rich? I don't see how wealth can ever excuse a love of Hitler!TheMix wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:44 pmI read it as sarcasm. As that is often the "excuse" that is made.Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:39 pmThis seems off to me. It's not a "rich people" thing that Crow appears to fetishize Hitler and possibly other dictators and despots. I don't see the connection you seem to be making here.malchior wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:47 am Rich people just have different, elevated tastes. Who wouldn't want to ponder on the memorabilia of the near ruin of man after or with a glass of Balvenie 30 year in hand?
Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:51 pmHmm. Still missing it. What's the "excuse"? That Crow is rich? I don't see how wealth can ever excuse a love of Hitler!TheMix wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:44 pmI read it as sarcasm. As that is often the "excuse" that is made.Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:39 pmThis seems off to me. It's not a "rich people" thing that Crow appears to fetishize Hitler and possibly other dictators and despots. I don't see the connection you seem to be making here.malchior wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:47 am Rich people just have different, elevated tastes. Who wouldn't want to ponder on the memorabilia of the near ruin of man after or with a glass of Balvenie 30 year in hand?
Hence the sarcasm. Hopefully no rational person would accept wealth as an excuse. But are you honestly saying that you have never heard the trope used that mere mortals shouldn't judge the wealthy? Or that rich people are "eccentric" while poor people are "crazy"? Personally, I thought his post was pretty obvious. But if you don't see it, then I don't think that anything anyone says is going to help you. Apparently you simply don't have the same framing. /shrugThat’s not really one I’ve heard before, at least not in this context. Also, it’s beyond stupid. If anything, in a sane world, people with the benefit of wealth and privilege and education and worldly experience have even less of an excuse to be ignorant ass hats.TheMix wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:08 pmKurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:51 pmHmm. Still missing it. What's the "excuse"? That Crow is rich? I don't see how wealth can ever excuse a love of Hitler!TheMix wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:44 pmI read it as sarcasm. As that is often the "excuse" that is made.Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:39 pmThis seems off to me. It's not a "rich people" thing that Crow appears to fetishize Hitler and possibly other dictators and despots. I don't see the connection you seem to be making here.malchior wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:47 am Rich people just have different, elevated tastes. Who wouldn't want to ponder on the memorabilia of the near ruin of man after or with a glass of Balvenie 30 year in hand?
Crow sits on the board of AEI, which lobbies against tax hikes on billionaires and writes briefs to Justice Thomas. Crow lavished millions in gifts on Thomas. Is this corrupt? Probably.
Does it have the appearance of corruption? Absolutely.
Justice Thomas needs to resign.
It’s a sideshow to the real issue. He also has Lenin and communist memorabilia.Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:51 pmHmm. Still missing it. What's the "excuse"? That Crow is rich? I don't see how wealth can ever excuse a love of Hitler!TheMix wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:44 pmI read it as sarcasm. As that is often the "excuse" that is made.Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:39 pmThis seems off to me. It's not a "rich people" thing that Crow appears to fetishize Hitler and possibly other dictators and despots. I don't see the connection you seem to be making here.malchior wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:47 am Rich people just have different, elevated tastes. Who wouldn't want to ponder on the memorabilia of the near ruin of man after or with a glass of Balvenie 30 year in hand?
It was an (attempted) joke about how other wealthy people would defend him. The below is not exactly the same pitch but still here's some very serious people swinging in to help him out...Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:51 pmHmm. Still missing it. What's the "excuse"? That Crow is rich? I don't see how wealth can ever excuse a love of Hitler!TheMix wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:44 pmI read it as sarcasm. As that is often the "excuse" that is made.Kurth wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 2:39 pmThis seems off to me. It's not a "rich people" thing that Crow appears to fetishize Hitler and possibly other dictators and despots. I don't see the connection you seem to be making here.malchior wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:47 am Rich people just have different, elevated tastes. Who wouldn't want to ponder on the memorabilia of the near ruin of man after or with a glass of Balvenie 30 year in hand?
I agree with this. The issue here is not with Crow's beliefs, it's with the corruption inherent in their relationship.Holman wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:39 pm The whole Nazi memorabilia thing muddies the waters to Thomas's benefit.
Media types can tout "reasonable disagreement" about whether collecting the stuff means endorsing it. And as long as we're talking about that, we're NOT talking about Thomas being lavishly feted by wealthy and influential right-wing operatives for more than 20 years.
His (alleged) beliefs may shine a pretty bright light on the nature of the relationship, however. The whole BFF thing looks pretty one-sided if Crow is a big fan of racist autocracies.El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:37 pmI agree with this. The issue here is not with Crow's beliefs, it's with the corruption inherent in their relationship.Holman wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:39 pm The whole Nazi memorabilia thing muddies the waters to Thomas's benefit.
Media types can tout "reasonable disagreement" about whether collecting the stuff means endorsing it. And as long as we're talking about that, we're NOT talking about Thomas being lavishly feted by wealthy and influential right-wing operatives for more than 20 years.
Oh, I'm sure he considers Thomas to be One Of The Good Ones.LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:12 pmHis (alleged) beliefs may shine a pretty bright light on the nature of the relationship, however. The whole BFF thing looks pretty one-sided if Crow is a big fan of racist autocracies.El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:37 pmI agree with this. The issue here is not with Crow's beliefs, it's with the corruption inherent in their relationship.Holman wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:39 pm The whole Nazi memorabilia thing muddies the waters to Thomas's benefit.
Media types can tout "reasonable disagreement" about whether collecting the stuff means endorsing it. And as long as we're talking about that, we're NOT talking about Thomas being lavishly feted by wealthy and influential right-wing operatives for more than 20 years.
He probably keeps this in a more secure areawaitingtoconnect wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:28 pm The super rich are very nice to the people they favour. But they are also capricious and vicious. And they fight amongst each other not with guns but in the media and in the c companies they own and the politicians they own.
The power literally goes to their heads. And they are highly protective of the system they have created. So they are patriotic but only to themselves and their own class.
The Nazi memorabilia is concerning but that doesn’t change the fact that this man takes a Supreme Court justice on trips with a worth of millions of dollars. There is the real issue.
We need to resist the reality tv showification of our politics that the maga republicans have been successful in implementing. This isn’t a vote off the island this is a very real and disturbing example of endemic corruption that in the recent past would have been utterly condemned by both parties.
What’s in there? Oh, that’s my shrine to the Ancient One. Yes, good eye, that is the Necronomicon. Bound in flesh and everything. What, you think it’s suspicious that I have a book of spells used to summon the Old Gods placed on a dais in a room called the Ritual Shrine? Oh, come on. Your generation has no love of history. Do you know what I had to do to get this book? The people I had to pay? The things these hands have seen? No easy feat.
I think you’re misunderstanding my reasons for having the Necronomicon. You see, I’m a lover of history, even the dark parts. It’s important to commemorate the great evils that have come before so we don’t repeat our past mistakes.
Sure, I could donate it to a museum, but they wouldn’t let me perform the dark rites.
Useful, not good.Holman wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:25 pmOh, I'm sure he considers Thomas to be One Of The Good Ones.LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:12 pmHis (alleged) beliefs may shine a pretty bright light on the nature of the relationship, however. The whole BFF thing looks pretty one-sided if Crow is a big fan of racist autocracies.El Guapo wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 2:37 pmI agree with this. The issue here is not with Crow's beliefs, it's with the corruption inherent in their relationship.Holman wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:39 pm The whole Nazi memorabilia thing muddies the waters to Thomas's benefit.
Media types can tout "reasonable disagreement" about whether collecting the stuff means endorsing it. And as long as we're talking about that, we're NOT talking about Thomas being lavishly feted by wealthy and influential right-wing operatives for more than 20 years.
Maybe consider donating to a respectable organization/museum. I'd probably roll over in my grave if someone found a box of Nazi stuff in my attic after I died. My children would certainly be horrified, and if they already knew about it, they'd be tasked with defending me. Not something I want them to inherit.Holman wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:21 pm I own a small amount of Nazi memorabilia: a couple of Nazi armbands, an officer's shoulder board, some sort of uniform chest badge, a uniform cuff band, and a few other small bits. These were souvenirs brought home by my grandfather after his US Army service from 1943 to 1946. There are visible swastikas involved in almost each piece.
All this stuff is in a box in the back of my closet.
If I owned Hitler shit and put it on prominent display in my house, everyone I know would be right to think that it was fucked up.
Stick a note in there explaining what it is and why you have it. And sit down with the kids explaining it before you die. Oral family history is important.GreenGoo wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:54 amMaybe consider donating to a respectable organization/museum. I'd probably roll over in my grave if someone found a box of Nazi stuff in my attic after I died. My children would certainly be horrified, and if they already knew about it, they'd be tasked with defending me. Not something I want them to inherit.Holman wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:21 pm I own a small amount of Nazi memorabilia: a couple of Nazi armbands, an officer's shoulder board, some sort of uniform chest badge, a uniform cuff band, and a few other small bits. These were souvenirs brought home by my grandfather after his US Army service from 1943 to 1946. There are visible swastikas involved in almost each piece.
All this stuff is in a box in the back of my closet.
If I owned Hitler shit and put it on prominent display in my house, everyone I know would be right to think that it was fucked up.
Of course it's different. And of course a serious conversation should be had with his kids, if any. No one is claiming ill intent, but it's not hard to imagine real fallout to your kids' lives depending on a number of factors. Even just being known as "that guy with the nazi stuff" can have negative ramifications.LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:55 am
It's different than just buying the stuff up on the open market and displaying them like trophies.
This is part of why I think Democrats should minimize the Nazi memorabilia angle. Not that it's not potentially concerning, nor that everyone should stop looking at it entirely, but the clear cut problem that's relatively simple to understand is that a Supreme Court justice has accepted millions in gifts from someone with regular business before the court, and that there is at least a decent argument (not 100% clear on this) that Thomas was legally required to disclose them. Getting into whether that person is otherwise a good person or has troubling beliefs is mostly irrelevant to that problem, and the GOP would rather litigate that question than the corruption angle.GreenGoo wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:44 amOf course it's different. And of course a serious conversation should be had with his kids, if any. No one is claiming ill intent, but it's not hard to imagine real fallout to your kids' lives depending on a number of factors. Even just being known as "that guy with the nazi stuff" can have negative ramifications.LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:55 am
It's different than just buying the stuff up on the open market and displaying them like trophies.
In any case, it's just an unsolicited opinion. He's free to do whatever he wants without judgement from me.
I disagree with this to some extent. I agree it is two separate problems. There is the corruption issue which is possibly *more significant* but I'm not certain. That other problem gets to perceptions about Thomas's personal beliefs which are quite relevant considering how this court now operates.El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:55 pmThis is part of why I think Democrats should minimize the Nazi memorabilia angle. Not that it's not potentially concerning, nor that everyone should stop looking at it entirely, but the clear cut problem that's relatively simple to understand is that a Supreme Court justice has accepted millions in gifts from someone with regular business before the court, and that there is at least a decent argument (not 100% clear on this) that Thomas was legally required to disclose them. Getting into whether that person is otherwise a good person or has troubling beliefs is mostly irrelevant to that problem, and the GOP would rather litigate that question than the corruption angle.GreenGoo wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:44 amOf course it's different. And of course a serious conversation should be had with his kids, if any. No one is claiming ill intent, but it's not hard to imagine real fallout to your kids' lives depending on a number of factors. Even just being known as "that guy with the nazi stuff" can have negative ramifications.LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:55 am
It's different than just buying the stuff up on the open market and displaying them like trophies.
In any case, it's just an unsolicited opinion. He's free to do whatever he wants without judgement from me.
This is stretching it a bit, I think. We used to hear all the time about the close personal friendship between Justices Ginsberg and Scalia, but I don't think anyone believes that they held similar fundamental beliefs.malchior wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:14 pm That other problem gets to perceptions about Thomas's personal beliefs. They have both spoken to a close personal friendship. That gives the appearances of alignment on values at some level. And this is a guy who collects a lot of historical material (nazi memorabilia being but one) but has other weird characteristics such as his exhibit of fallen dictators. In my opinion considering the power he wields, we have every right to know if Thomas has disqualifying personal beliefs. Depending on the depth of those beliefs it could actually be a bigger problem.
I mean differing on constitutional interpretation - even dramatically - is a big difference IMO from considering the public might not appreciate him overlooking some potentially extreme views.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:19 pmThis is stretching it a bit, I think. We used to hear all the time about the close personal friendship between Justices Ginsberg and Scalia, but I don't think anyone believes that they held similar fundamental beliefs.malchior wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 1:14 pm That other problem gets to perceptions about Thomas's personal beliefs. They have both spoken to a close personal friendship. That gives the appearances of alignment on values at some level. And this is a guy who collects a lot of historical material (nazi memorabilia being but one) but has other weird characteristics such as his exhibit of fallen dictators. In my opinion considering the power he wields, we have every right to know if Thomas has disqualifying personal beliefs. Depending on the depth of those beliefs it could actually be a bigger problem.
Yeah, but they weren't friends until AFTER he became a Supreme Court Justice and started accepting all these gifts. Thomas should have acted Ethically and refused them as a Supreme Court Justice.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:05 pm I think it's pretty relatable to have close friendships with people who disagree with you dramatically on some issues, especially in this day and age of political hyper-polarization. That's not to say that it's not worth considering, but it's nowhere near as important an issue as the potential conflict of interest from accepting such lavish gifts.
I'm more saying the public might buy differences over the death penalty or gun rights. It's another matter when it comes down to, "We're pretty good friends and just agree to disagree about whether 'Hitler was right' or about how he sometimes meditates on how he might improve on failed dictators follies". It's potentially in another league.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:05 pm I think it's pretty relatable to have close friendships with people who disagree with you dramatically on some issues, especially in this day and age of political hyper-polarization. That's not to say that it's not worth considering, but it's nowhere near as important an issue as the potential conflict of interest from accepting such lavish gifts.
It potentially is, but the argument as I understand it is that Crow collected the memorabilia as historical artifacts alongside other authoritarian relics. Unless something comes out that's clear-cut "I love Hitler, signed Mr. Crow" then it's probably more of a distraction.malchior wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:20 pmI'm more saying the public might buy differences over the death penalty or gun rights. It's another matter when it comes down to, "We're pretty good friends and just agree to disagree about whether 'Hitler was right' or about how he sometimes meditates on how he might improve on failed dictators follies". It's potentially in another league.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:05 pm I think it's pretty relatable to have close friendships with people who disagree with you dramatically on some issues, especially in this day and age of political hyper-polarization. That's not to say that it's not worth considering, but it's nowhere near as important an issue as the potential conflict of interest from accepting such lavish gifts.
Edit: Anyway, I don't think we're ever going to get a satisfying answer considering how Thomas already signaled contempt for basic ethical norms. Even if he was ignoring/covering up/sharing his friend's predilections for various crimes against humanity I doubt we'll find out. I agree the conflict is probably worse but if something crazy does come out it'll be pretty bad.
I'm not sure if you think you're disagreeing with me or not (by starting out with "Yeah, but . . . ."), but you're not.Pyperkub wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:08 pmYeah, but they weren't friends until AFTER he became a Supreme Court Justice and started accepting all these gifts. Thomas should have acted Ethically and refused them as a Supreme Court Justice.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:05 pm I think it's pretty relatable to have close friendships with people who disagree with you dramatically on some issues, especially in this day and age of political hyper-polarization. That's not to say that it's not worth considering, but it's nowhere near as important an issue as the potential conflict of interest from accepting such lavish gifts.
He did not, nor did he recuse himself from his "friend"'s cases.
You're simultaneously minimizing the potential disagreements that some people might have while assuming the worst about the Crow/Thomas dynamic. As Guapo notes it'll be different if there's some smoking gun that comes out with respect to the Garden of Evil, but until then it doesn't make a lot of sense to focus the Thomas concerns on anything other than the massive conflict of interest. We can also separately consider WTF is Crow's problem, but that's a sideshow to the clear and obvious breach of ethics in front of us.malchior wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:20 pmI'm more saying the public might buy differences over the death penalty or gun rights. It's another matter when it comes down to, "We're pretty good friends and just agree to disagree about whether 'Hitler was right' or about how he sometimes meditates on how he might improve on failed dictators follies". It's potentially in another league.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:05 pm I think it's pretty relatable to have close friendships with people who disagree with you dramatically on some issues, especially in this day and age of political hyper-polarization. That's not to say that it's not worth considering, but it's nowhere near as important an issue as the potential conflict of interest from accepting such lavish gifts.
None of it is worth museum care: it's all pretty ratty. Plus it's boxed alongside mementos and pictures from his own army service, so the context is pretty clear.GreenGoo wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:54 amMaybe consider donating to a respectable organization/museum. I'd probably roll over in my grave if someone found a box of Nazi stuff in my attic after I died. My children would certainly be horrified, and if they already knew about it, they'd be tasked with defending me. Not something I want them to inherit.Holman wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:21 pm I own a small amount of Nazi memorabilia: a couple of Nazi armbands, an officer's shoulder board, some sort of uniform chest badge, a uniform cuff band, and a few other small bits. These were souvenirs brought home by my grandfather after his US Army service from 1943 to 1946. There are visible swastikas involved in almost each piece.
All this stuff is in a box in the back of my closet.
If I owned Hitler shit and put it on prominent display in my house, everyone I know would be right to think that it was fucked up.
I don't think I'm minimizing anything. I'm just saying that the comparisons (e.g., Breyer's dynamic w/ Scalia) doesn't capture how it is playing out in the court of public opinion right now. That's all I'm saying. You don't have to make up anything about it like the GOP would. The story comes across as very unsavory. It isn't unfair at all to ask - what does that friendship look like - and bank some political coinage.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:53 pmYou're simultaneously minimizing the potential disagreements that some people might have while assuming the worst about the Crow/Thomas dynamic. As Guapo notes it'll be different if there's some smoking gun that comes out with respect to the Garden of Evil, but until then it doesn't make a lot of sense to focus the Thomas concerns on anything other than the massive conflict of interest.malchior wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:20 pmI'm more saying the public might buy differences over the death penalty or gun rights. It's another matter when it comes down to, "We're pretty good friends and just agree to disagree about whether 'Hitler was right' or about how he sometimes meditates on how he might improve on failed dictators follies". It's potentially in another league.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 2:05 pm I think it's pretty relatable to have close friendships with people who disagree with you dramatically on some issues, especially in this day and age of political hyper-polarization. That's not to say that it's not worth considering, but it's nowhere near as important an issue as the potential conflict of interest from accepting such lavish gifts.
I just think they could push on...both stories. Choosing to decide what someone thinks is more important and missing the moment on another is just a strange decision to me. I think people get it with both but the Nazi memorabilia is sticking better/having more impact. Whether that is fair or not is another story altogether. At the end of the day, nothing will happen anyway so the goal should be to inflict political damage and folks can do that here without sinking into the mud. I don't get why you wouldn't push every angle you can on this affair.We can also separately consider WTF is Crow's problem, but that's a sideshow to the clear and obvious breach of ethics in front of us.
FWIW I don't disagree but to me this is a bit of the fundamental problem with "Democratic" messaging. The strategy is always focus on the thing "we" care about instead of listening to the "audience". There isn't a real need to worry about the distraction. At least I can't figure out why you can't lean into both. Is leaning hard on the ethics issue and avoiding a distraction on the other going to yield more returns in reality? Maybe but really hard to quantify.El Guapo wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:37 pmIt potentially is, but the argument as I understand it is that Crow collected the memorabilia as historical artifacts alongside other authoritarian relics. Unless something comes out that's clear-cut "I love Hitler, signed Mr. Crow" then it's probably more of a distraction.
In my opinion the Nazi stuff is both weak and not impeachable and distracts from a strong and impeachable offense (not that he'll be impeached for either). The Nazi stuff is weak because it's not Thomas doing the collecting, so you've got a guilt by association thing going on instead of something Thomas actually did, plus there's at least a plausible cover story in that (i) he's just a collector, and (ii) insanely rich people are really weird and don't grasp how what they're doing resonates with the hoi polloi. Why tie a really strong case for ethical infractions with a weaker case that Thomas hangs out with Nazi fetishists?malchior wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:52 pmI just think they could push on...both stories. Choosing to decide what someone thinks is more important and missing the moment on another is just a strange decision to me. I think people get it with both but the Nazi memorabilia is sticking better/having more impact. Whether that is fair or not is another story altogether. At the end of the day, nothing will happen anyway so the goal should be to inflict political damage and folks can do that here without sinking into the mud. I don't get why you wouldn't push every angle you can on this affair.We can also separately consider WTF is Crow's problem, but that's a sideshow to the clear and obvious breach of ethics in front of us.
I agree, and in our current political context - providing anything but just one single 'node' on a problem like this eventually just weakens the argument on the main thing that needs to be addressed: Thomas is obviously corrupt and needs to be held accountable for what's just blatant disregard for 'conflict of interests' at it's very least.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:24 pm In my opinion the Nazi stuff is both weak and not impeachable and distracts from a strong and impeachable offense
The thing of it though is that he won't be held accountable. I'd give solid odds on that. This is about political messaging strategy. In the end, having looked at a couple of platforms for a few minutes it appears most people are pushing both stories. It doesn't make that the right answer but I happen to think it's smart.Unagi wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:37 pmI agree, and in our current political context - providing anything but just one single 'node' on a problem like this eventually just weakens the argument on the main thing that needs to be addressed: Thomas is obviously corrupt and needs to be held accountable for what's just blatant disregard for 'conflict of interests' at it's very least.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:24 pm In my opinion the Nazi stuff is both weak and not impeachable and distracts from a strong and impeachable offense
Mostly because Americans are idiots at scale. They give a moderate rats ass about the ethics stuff. Most people intuitively know that getting lots of free trips is wrong. Also a lot of them will absolutely wonder why Thomas is hanging around with a "Nazi". I'm bemused by this discussion because it is relatively provable that America does not have a top notch polity but the strongest case argument heavily relies on it. I also don't think worrying about impeachable versus not impeachable is relevant. There is no universe where that is even a possibility. There is the logic of it and there is the politics of it. I am arguing to the politics and agreeing the whole way with which one SHOULD be what we focus on. I just don't think that's the most effective in the current state.ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:24 pmIn my opinion the Nazi stuff is both weak and not impeachable and distracts from a strong and impeachable offense (not that he'll be impeached for either). The Nazi stuff is weak because it's not Thomas doing the collecting, so you've got a guilt by association thing going on instead of something Thomas actually did, plus there's at least a plausible cover story in that (i) he's just a collector, and (ii) insanely rich people are really weird and don't grasp how what they're doing resonates with the hoi polloi. Why tie a really strong case for ethical infractions with a weaker case that Thomas hangs out with Nazi fetishists?
This whole thing reminds me of this scene.The mentality of proudly displaying this stuff has to be the same.Holman wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:21 pm I own a small amount of Nazi memorabilia: a couple of Nazi armbands, an officer's shoulder board, some sort of uniform chest badge, a uniform cuff band, and a few other small bits. These were souvenirs brought home by my grandfather after his US Army service from 1943 to 1946. There are visible swastikas involved in almost each piece.
All this stuff is in a box in the back of my closet.
If I owned Hitler shit and put it on prominent display in my house, everyone I know would be right to think that it was fucked up.
I think this is where our difference lies. I think the ethics play is better politics because it's real and irrefutable. I think you may be seeing more discussion of the Nazi issue because it's easier to swat away (for the reasons I argued it was weak). The Thomas defenders would rather we focus on the less concrete and more easy to dismiss Nazi issue, so that's what they're engaging on and that's why it might look like people care more about it.malchior wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:58 pm Mostly because Americans are idiots at scale. They give a moderate rats ass about the ethics stuff. Most people intuitively know that getting lots of free trips is wrong. Also a lot of them will absolutely wonder why Thomas is hanging around with a "Nazi". I'm bemused by this discussion because it is relatively provable that America does not have a top notch polity but the strongest case argument heavily relies on it. I also don't think worrying about impeachable versus not impeachable is relevant. There is no universe where that is even a possibility. There is the logic of it and there is the politics of it. I am arguing to the politics and agreeing the whole way with which one SHOULD be what we focus on. I just don't think that's the most effective in the current state.