SCOTUS Watch

[Kurth]

Mostly because Americans are idiots at scale. They give a moderate rats ass about the ethics stuff. Most people intuitively know that getting lots of free trips is wrong. Also a lot of them will absolutely wonder why Thomas is hanging around with a "Nazi". I'm bemused by this discussion because it is relatively provable that America does not have a top notch polity but the strongest case argument heavily relies on it. I also don't think worrying about impeachable versus not impeachable is relevant. There is no universe where that is even a possibility. There is the logic of it and there is the politics of it. I am arguing to the politics and agreeing the whole way with which one SHOULD be what we focus on. I just don't think that's the most effective in the current state.

I think this is where our difference lies. I think the ethics play is better politics because it's real and irrefutable. I think you may be seeing more discussion of the Nazi issue because it's easier to swat away (for the reasons I argued it was weak). The Thomas defenders would rather we focus on the less concrete and more easy to dismiss Nazi issue, so that's what they're engaging on and that's why it might look like people care more about it.

Or maybe I'm just some weirdo who has had ethics so drilled into him that I find that to be the bigger issue and I'm imputing my bias onto the population at large. I won't rule out that possibility.

Of course, it's all moot at this point. He's not going to face any reprimand for either issue (although we might at least see the Senate poking at the ethics issue while they still have a majority) and I don't think it's going to move the needle in 2024 one way or the other.

FWIW, I don't think you're a weirdo. I agree 100% that the focus should stay on Thomas and his acceptance of gifts that should have been at least disclosed if they weren't refused. This combined with his refusal to recuse himself from cases where he has an obvious conflict of interest renders him unfit to remain on the Supreme Court for clear failure to abide by basic judicial ethics. It won't matter, and nothing will come of it, but that's at least a very solid argument grounded in fact.

[Kurth]

I was just allowed to see some Nazi paraphernalia my dad had stashed in a safe for ~60+ years. It was pieces of a few guns and a knife, all with flair on them. My grandfather brought them home from his fight in the Ardennes, presumably after mortaring the shit out of the soldiers that were carrying them.

I would never sell or display them, but I would volunteer to lob mortar shells at Nazis - in my family's tradition.

Also just want to point out that this is my favorite thing I read today. That's one hell of a family tradition, Smoove!

[malchior]

Gerontocracy strikes again. Feinstein should at least give up the judiciary seat so it can re-assigned if she can't return for the upcoming session.

[Smoove_B]

Also just want to point out that this is my favorite thing I read today. That's one hell of a family tradition, Smoove!

For me, it's about heritage - not hate.

Gerontocracy strikes again. Feinstein should at least give up the judiciary seat so it can re-assigned if she can't return for the upcoming session.

I know it's sacrilege to say it, but it's RBG all over again. It's beyond frustrating that the inability to act is actively working against the bigger picture, long term national interest here.

EDIT: colors, forgive me

[malchior]

Inability to act often seems to swing in one direction, amirite? The GOP oligarchs always find a way to twist arms in their favor.

[Smoove_B]

It is amazing, isn't it? And then when the winds shift and the GOP seizes an opportunity, moving like lightning to take advantage of an extra vote or the ability to ram through some awful policy, everyone stands around and scratches their head. On the one hand, it's impressive - that they remain coiled like watch springs for as long as it takes. On the other, knowing they're waiting in the wings to do awful things you'd think at some point there would be a realization that it's problematic.

[Kurth]

It is amazing, isn't it? And then when the winds shift and the GOP seizes an opportunity, moving like lightning to take advantage of an extra vote or the ability to ram through some awful policy, everyone stands around and scratches their head. On the one hand, it's impressive - that they remain coiled like watch springs for as long as it takes. On the other, knowing they're waiting in the wings to do awful things you'd think at some point there would be a realization that it's problematic.

There’s truth to this, but let’s also not overstate the machine-like precision and strategy of the finely tuned GOP. They also shoot themselves in the foot about as often as they hit the intended target. The TN statehouse expulsion is just the latest example. And if we want to look at the bigger picture, everything that’s going down with abortion right now is not exactly part of a great strategy for the GOP to prevail in 2024 and into the future.

They’re certainly good at some stuff. But they’re often about as buffoonish as their Democratic counterparts.

[malchior]

It is amazing, isn't it? And then when the winds shift and the GOP seizes an opportunity, moving like lightning to take advantage of an extra vote or the ability to ram through some awful policy, everyone stands around and scratches their head. On the one hand, it's impressive - that they remain coiled like watch springs for as long as it takes. On the other, knowing they're waiting in the wings to do awful things you'd think at some point there would be a realization that it's problematic.

There’s truth to this, but let’s also not overstate the machine-like precision and strategy of the finely tuned GOP. They also shoot themselves in the foot about as often as they hit the intended target. The TN statehouse expulsion is just the latest example.

I agree it could be but the impacts are yet to be seen. Whether or not the GOP in TN are conscious this stuff is textbook democratic backsliding, this is how authoritarians often signal that they can do pretty much anything. The shock value is the value to them. That sometimes works against them but if it doesn't you are in real trouble. And it's hard to know when that tipping point has occurred. It is a sign of high/extreme risk to democracy. And even then they have gerrymandered with SCOTUS wink and nod into a near-permanent majority if not supermajority. They take shots like this because there are so few downsides.

And if we want to look at the bigger picture, everything that’s going down with abortion right now is not exactly part of a great strategy for the GOP to prevail in 2024 and into the future.

Sure. Up and until they start actually overturning elections. Which all of the above is tangential to. We have to break out of this "normal" calculus of how the system works because it's not predictive. We're seeing significant movement daily/weekly in the wrong direction.

They’re certainly good at some stuff. But they’re often about as buffoonish as their Democratic counterparts.

This is too tactical IMO. Maybe they are equally or even more buffoonish but one set has been VERY EFFECTIVE at making lots of regressive radical change in a few years versus decades of muddling. We can agree no one is great but also still suspect that's academic with one side advancing their agenda at rapid pace. And it's not even close. What they are doing in Florida, Georgia, Texas, Tennessee, Wisconsin, North and South Carolina, etc. are all experiments that potentially end up seeing the United States slide into autocracy. Some fail. Some work. But they are out there right now cooking up ways to take power for themselves permanently. We should be well past wondering if they are good or bad at it. Their process has been working at a strategic level.

[Pyperkub]

It is amazing, isn't it? And then when the winds shift and the GOP seizes an opportunity, moving like lightning to take advantage of an extra vote or the ability to ram through some awful policy, everyone stands around and scratches their head. On the one hand, it's impressive - that they remain coiled like watch springs for as long as it takes. On the other, knowing they're waiting in the wings to do awful things you'd think at some point there would be a realization that it's problematic.

There’s truth to this, but let’s also not overstate the machine-like precision and strategy of the finely tuned GOP. They also shoot themselves in the foot about as often as they hit the intended target. The TN statehouse expulsion is just the latest example. And if we want to look at the bigger picture, everything that’s going down with abortion right now is not exactly part of a great strategy for the GOP to prevail in 2024 and into the future.

They’re certainly good at some stuff. But they’re often about as buffoonish as their Democratic counterparts.

The machine with regards to money in politics buying politicians and policy has rolled steadily forward without the missteps on the Culture wars side.

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[Pyperkub]

I'll add this piece, which includes information about unreported travel gifts to Scalia (40x more than he reported), and how it *coukd* have influenced Citizens United, among others

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/04 ... tions.html

In other words, the big money operations/ influences have been shaping this Court for decades, without missteps.

I expect Roberts ( the only person who could address this in our current government), to bury it.

But he is the one whose moves will determine any accountability.

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[malchior]

I'll add this piece, which includes information about unreported travel gifts to Scalia (40x more than he reported), and how it *coukd* have influenced Citizens United, among others

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/04 ... tions.html

In other words, the big money operations/ influences have been shaping this Court for decades, without missteps.

I expect Roberts ( the only person who could address this in our current government), to bury it.

But he is the one whose moves will determine any accountability.

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Roberts has very few moves though. He can't do much at all if someone is breaking the rules or intentionally hiding activity. It's probably the reason the Dobbs investigation didn't look at the justices. He was just holding out hope it was a clerk or employee that he could hold accountable. Otherwise, it was better not to know definitively.

[Pyperkub]

The silence is deafening tho. He has a powerful public voice in this matter.

I expect that, without action, these gifts will be brought up in many a case before the Supremes, and in many others seeking clarification from the Court regarding past 5/4 rulings with Thomas in the majority.

Thomas's credibility as an impartial judge is dead.

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[malchior]

The silence is deafening tho. He has a powerful public voice in this matter.

I expect that, without action, these gifts will be brought up in many a case before the Supremes, and in many others seeking clarification from the Court regarding past 5/4 rulings with Thomas in the majority.

Thomas's credibility as an impartial judge is dead.

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The silence is totally deafening but I think a lot of people know why. It's because he is at some level powerless and at another level just riding out the storm where he can't win. He faces an impossible choice here about how to engage and not make the situation worse. I'm not defending Roberts here at all btw. He and (other justices) should have spoken up before now but they chose not to for various reasons. it has compounded to the point where he and the court are stuck now. Unless he or someone comes up with some clever way to deal with this disaster of legitimacy they face they just have to hope he passes/retires before more allegations about him or other justices come out.

FWIW I don't think at their level they are going to see someone going after Thomas like this in the court room. The bigger problem is out in the public space where we see trust in the court in the gutter.

[Unagi]

The silence is deafening tho. He has a powerful public voice in this matter.

I expect that, without action, these gifts will be brought up in many a case before the Supremes, and in many others seeking clarification from the Court regarding past 5/4 rulings with Thomas in the majority.

Thomas's credibility as an impartial judge is dead.

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My 16 yr-old said to me today, "With people like this on the Supreme Court, The Constitution is meaningless."

He isn't wrong.

[Grifman]

[malchior]

Now that's *really* impeachable! It won't happen but it sure as shit sounds like he should be impeached. The ProPublica piece is damning. Crow bought property from Thomas. Thomas's mother lived there! Thomas paid the taxes up to that point and then Crow took over. Crow improved the property while his mother was living there. This is beyond the pale. Thomas is probably a leading candidate for most unethical justice in the history of the Supreme Court and unless Thomas grows a conscience it seems likely NOTHING WILL HAPPEN.

[El Guapo]

Now that's *really* impeachable! It won't happen but it sure as shit sounds like he should be impeached. The ProPublica piece is damning. Crow bought property from Thomas. Thomas's mother lived there! Thomas paid the taxes up to that point and then Crow took over. Crow improved the property while his mother was living there. This is beyond the pale. Thomas is probably a leading candidate for most unethical justice in the history of the Supreme Court and unless Thomas grows a conscience it seems likely NOTHING WILL HAPPEN.

Seems like the only viable mechanism for accountability here would be a criminal case against Thomas, right? Not that I have any sense of how clear-cut the relevant standards and laws are, and I doubt that the Biden administration / relevant authorities would consider that.

Otherwise, feels like the only options are some type of Senate inquiry that will generate a report that would be embarrassing for Thomas / the GOP but not actually do anything else. Presumably with the GOP in control of the House even a doomed impeachment effort is off the table.

[malchior]

Yep. About all this broken, corrupt system could muster up is embarrassing press and a Senate report with conflicting narratives between the majority and minority. Blech.

[El Guapo]

Yep. About all this broken, corrupt system could muster up is embarrassing press and a Senate report with conflicting narratives between the majority and minority. Blech.

And the thing is that the GOP can then use their ability to block any accountability to avoid even embarrassment or bad press. Durbin and the like will inevitably say "what's the point of an investigation or report that we know from the start won't do anything" and as to the media they won't report on it in full depth because the known outcome makes it less newsworthy.

[malchior]

[hepcat]

It’s time to drain the swamp….for real this time.

[waitingtoconnect]

The silence is deafening tho. He has a powerful public voice in this matter.

I expect that, without action, these gifts will be brought up in many a case before the Supremes, and in many others seeking clarification from the Court regarding past 5/4 rulings with Thomas in the majority.

Thomas's credibility as an impartial judge is dead.

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My 16 yr-old said to me today, "With people like this on the Supreme Court, The Constitution is meaningless."

He isn't wrong.

This is what they want. They will say thanks to the democrats the Supreme Court is broken. This makes the constitution invalid so let’s bring back emperor trump, the purge and everything fascist we want.

[waitingtoconnect]

Now that's *really* impeachable! It won't happen but it sure as shit sounds like he should be impeached. The ProPublica piece is damning. Crow bought property from Thomas. Thomas's mother lived there! Thomas paid the taxes up to that point and then Crow took over. Crow improved the property while his mother was living there. This is beyond the pale. Thomas is probably a leading candidate for most unethical justice in the history of the Supreme Court and unless Thomas grows a conscience it seems likely NOTHING WILL HAPPEN.

They knew in 1991 at his confirmation. Many people said EXACTLY this would happen. This isn’t his first scandal since either.

[malchior]

The latest revelations in the Thomas story? NY Times - no front page mention. Buried in A19. Washington Post. No story at all. Both gave it some coverage in the opinion section. Last night there were some segments on cable and O'Donnell covered it in depth but it's being treated already like an old story despite the situation getting much worse. The traditional media is failing us and we have to still rely on shitty platforms like Twitter to stay informed.

[malchior]

Elie is spitting fire.

[malchior]

Congrats to NY Times for just outdoing themselves on the Pitchbot headline here.

[Zaxxon]

I mean, holy shit.

[GreenGoo]

They understand that by that argument, if it were true, would invalidate the entire court, right? I mean, right? Talk about advocating for lawlessness.

[malchior]

I think they are arguing that Supreme Court has ethics issues and should be fixed holistically. That's fine but it seems calculated to minimize that Thomas was a 3-alarm fire just upgraded to 5-alarm. Relatively few seem to care at the top. You've got essentially 2 US Senators notably speaking out about it - Sheldon Whitehouse and Chris Murphy. That's pretty much it. It's insane and this is why I have lost hope. People should go read up about how Abe Fortas was forced to resign and then look at Thomas and just think about how far our standards have slid. Similarly think about Jimmy Carter and the peanut farm and then Trump grifting. We're a shadow of who we used to be ethically.

[gbasden]

I think they are arguing that Supreme Court has ethics issues and should be fixed holistically. That's fine but it seems calculated to minimize that Thomas was a 3-alarm fire just upgraded to 5-alarm. Relatively few seem to care at the top. You've got essentially 2 US Senators notably speaking out about it - Sheldon Whitehouse and Chris Murphy. That's pretty much it. It's insane and this is why I have lost hope. People should go read up about how Abe Fortas was forced to resign and then look at Thomas and just think about how far our standards have slid. We're a shadow of who we used to be ethically.

We are a shadow of who we used to be in so many ways.

[Blackhawk]

You mean we're not great again?

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm on a neighborhood board, not a powerful one by any means but I sometimes get offered comped meals when I'm out in the neighborhood. I always refuse. It would be harmless and they're meant as a kind gesture, not a quid pro quo, because what can I really give them, but it still feels wrong.

But to be honest, why the fuck should I care about ethics if a Supreme Court Justice doesn't? It's supposed to be the paragon of ethics. That's a rhetorical question of course, I've gave up trying to suppress my conscience decades ago.

It's still hard to reconcile and I'm sure the "burn it all down" factions on both sides will only grow. We are deep, deep in the shit.

[malchior]

It's still hard to reconcile and I'm sure the "burn it all down" factions on both sides will only grow. We are deep, deep in the shit.

And then there are some of us who are starting to not care if they do burn it down.

[Kraken]

It's still hard to reconcile and I'm sure the "burn it all down" factions on both sides will only grow. We are deep, deep in the shit.

And then there are some of us who are starting to not care if they do burn it down.

It's time to bring Drazzil back.

[Zaxxon]

It's still hard to reconcile and I'm sure the "burn it all down" factions on both sides will only grow. We are deep, deep in the shit.

And then there are some of us who are starting to not care if they do burn it down.

It's time to bring Drazzil back.

Drazzil: a man before his time?

[Unagi]

It's still hard to reconcile and I'm sure the "burn it all down" factions on both sides will only grow. We are deep, deep in the shit.

And then there are some of us who are starting to not care if they do burn it down.

I’ve struggled to reconcile with what has become an increasing clear alignment you have with this sentiment, and I struggle to cope with how you are the “good cop” to Drazzil’s “bad cop” — but both really secretly pushing the same message.


I say all this with a pinch of ‘Fuck it all’ in my own disposition…. But with two kids, that’s a hard reality to actually saddle them with: which is entirely what that sentiment entails.

[Blackhawk]

I say all this with a pinch of ‘Fuck it all’ in my own disposition…. But with two kids, that’s a hard reality to actually saddle them with: which is entirely what that sentiment entails.

This is close to where I am. I will be dead within the next few decades, but I have three kids and three grandkids. And it's impossible for me to even consider that without realizing that they are just a few of millions who are, just as much as my own, going to have to deal with the fallout if we go with 'burn it all down.'

[Unagi]

My 16 yr-old said to me today, "With people like this on the Supreme Court, The Constitution is meaningless."

This is what they want. They will say thanks to the democrats the Supreme Court is broken.

Why would they say ‘thanks to the democrats’?

Is that with the idea that the Democrats have not stacked the courts while they have this small shot here?

[Unagi]

Elie is spitting fire.

God damn spot on

[Kraken]

It's still hard to reconcile and I'm sure the "burn it all down" factions on both sides will only grow. We are deep, deep in the shit.

And then there are some of us who are starting to not care if they do burn it down.

It's time to bring Drazzil back.

Drazzil: a man before his time?

His ideas were/are not wrong. The way he expressed them -- advocating violence -- is.

One of the last things he said before he rage-quit last time was (paraphrasing) "how long before we start ignoring or defying the courts?" Well, we're getting there.