Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:21 pm**

Am I reading this right.

The president believes the Democratic House minority did some illegal shit and is speaking for the incoming Senate to say he will make the Senate extort the House to prevent them from investigating shit he says hasn't done but doesn't want investigated for the taxpayer and he's proclaiming this by public tweet?

Someone help me here. Seriously. I don't get get it.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:45 pm**

LordMortis wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:21 pm Am I reading this right.

The president believes the Democratic House minority did some illegal shit and is speaking for the incoming Senate to say he will make the Senate extort the House to prevent them from investigating shit he says hasn't done but doesn't want investigated for the taxpayer and he's proclaiming this by public tweet?

Someone help me here. Seriously. I don't get get it.

You got too far in asking someone to step into the mind of Trump!

However, I believe you are essentially correct in your assessment. He’s probably using that clause of the Constitution that states When the House is held by a different party from the President and the Senate is of the same party as the President, the President shall be known as Dictator of the Senate and direct the Senate to investigate the House

So it’s fully Constitutional.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:53 pm**

Fitzy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:45 pm [
You got too far in asking someone to step into the mind of Trump!

I like to think I'm pretty good at putting myself in his insanity or in his apologists frame of reference. I can't do it here. That disconnect (at least as it reads to me) is too big for me fantasize for how he makes the leap.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:00 pm**

Sessions is out.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:24 pm**

tjg_marantz wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:00 pm Sessions is out.

Yep, we’ll see where this goes. Things are about to get more interesting for sure.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:08 pm**

Got to get the investigation scuttled before the Dems take over the House!

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:13 pm**

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:08 pm Got to get the investigation scuttled before the Dems take over the House!

I don't think I will want to leave my house and I'll wish I were a gun owner when that happens. I'll want to hide inside and pray that I'm wrong about the breaking point of American people because "the economy is good."

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:44 pm**

Grifman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:24 pm
Yep, we’ll see where this goes. Things are about to get more interesting for sure.

I am so, so tired of interesting. Interesting is exhausting.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:47 pm**

On the plus side, Dems in the House have promised to bring Mueller in for a televised hearing if he's fired. Of course, the new acting AG doesn't have to fire Mueller, he can just reduce the budget of the investigation to nothing (which he has previously suggested doing).

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:56 pm**

All along we've been known that Mueller has expected to be fired or stymied. I guess we're about to find out what his contingency plans are.

How deep does the Acting AG's authority go? If Mueller planned to indict Roger Stone tomorrow, could Whitaker just refuse to sign off on it?

Meanwhile, journos are building the case for Whitaker's recusal. It's being pointed out now that Whitaker chaired the 2014 campaign for Sam Clovis, who has already been called as a witness before Mueller's grand jury. There might be DoJ regulations touching on this.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:16 pm**

We already know a lot about his contingency plans:

Former Acting Solicitor General Neal Katyal (who drafted the federal regulations for the appointment and removal of the independent counsel) explained it this way to CNN’s Anderson Cooper:

Mueller did something brilliant. From the start, he worked with the New York state attorney general’s office. This is significant because while the president has the prosecution power, it’s only the federal prosecution power. He can’t stop a state prosecution, and can’t pardon people under it.

This week, we learned that Mueller has also been working with federal prosecutors in New York. What he has effectively done is create almost a blockchain prosecution and dispersed his files among a variety of different sources, so that if something happened to that central hub, Mueller, there’s another way for the investigations to still unfold.

Let’s face it. Mueller has known from the start that Trump might fire (or order someone else to fire) him. There’s no way Mueller would be blindsided. Mueller, a veteran prosecutor, has always been a step ahead of Trump; when the state prosecutions ramp up, Trump will have no power to either inhibit them or to shield himself from the consequences. As we’ve discussed before, the Attorneys General of New York and California have already made significant headway in filling in any prosecutorial gaps left by a Mueller firing.

And remember that his assumptions were probably based upon the worst case scenarios with GOP keeping control of both Houses.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:25 pm**

Apparently (according to the NYT) Whitaker would be required to notify Congress if he blocks any actions by Mueller.

I'd savor the irony if, in agreeing to do what Trump has no doubt told him to do, Whitaker put his leg into a obstruction bear trap.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:38 pm**

I'm seeing the Hill and Daily Caller stating that Whitaker will be taking over responsibility for oversight of the Mueller Investigation, however, it's not all over the place, and it appears to be based on this quote from the Justice Dept:

Asked whether Whitaker would assume control over Mueller’s investigation, Justice Department spokeswoman Sarah Flores said Whitaker would be “in charge of all matters under the purview of the Department of Justice.” The agency did not announce a departure for Rosenstein, who appointed Mueller and has closely overseen his work.

Which is a lot more ambiguous than what the other outlets are reporting:

The Hill wrote:President Trump's pick to replace ousted Attorney General Jeff Sessions plans to take over oversight of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation, the Department of Justice (DOJ) confirmed Wednesday.

"The Acting Attorney General is in charge of all matters under the purview of the Department of Justice," DOJ spokeswoman Sarah Isgur Flores said in a statement to The Hill.

The move means that Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein will no longer oversee the federal Russia investigation, which he has looked over since Sessions recused himself early last year due to his work on Trump's campaign.

Daily Caller wrote:The Justice Department stated Wednesday that acting Attorney General Matt Whitaker will overtake supervision of special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation from Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:31 pm**

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:47 pm On the plus side, Dems in the House have promised to bring Mueller in for a televised hearing if he's fired. Of course, the new acting AG doesn't have to fire Mueller, he can just reduce the budget of the investigation to nothing (which he has previously suggested doing).

Yay, hearings! I'll go bury my self in a bucket if Ben and Jerry's afterwards! All will be good.

Posted: **Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:35 pm**

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:25 pm Apparently (according to the NYT) Whitaker would be required to notify Congress if he blocks any actions by Mueller.

I'd savor the irony if, in agreeing to do what Trump has no doubt told him to do, Whitaker put his leg into a obstruction bear trap.

He's already said what he'll do in past interviews and his op ed grabage (which were all interviews for the job). He'll administratively cripple the investigation by cutting the budget to $0, creating mountains of red tape, etc.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:11 am**

Could a Go Fund Me be directed to fund it? ...cause I honestly think the people would.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:29 am**

Just sent this email to Lindsey Graham (who is on the Senate Judiciary Committee):

"I await the "holy hell" you promised if Trump fired Sessions. Please grow a backbone, do your job and confront this growing threat to our democracy and rule of law. "

Graham in July 2017:
“If Jeff Sessions is fired, there will be holy hell to pay.”

Graham yesterday:
“I look forward to working with President @realDonaldTrump to find a confirmable, worthy successor so that we can start a new chapter at the Department of Justice and deal with both the opportunities and challenges our nation faces,”

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:47 am**

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:29 am Just sent this email to Lindsey Graham (who is on the Senate Judiciary Committee):

"I await the "holy hell" you promised if Trump fired Sessions. Please grow a backbone, do your job and confront this growing threat to our democracy and rule of law. "

Graham in July 2017:
“If Jeff Sessions is fired, there will be holy hell to pay.”

Graham yesterday:
“I look forward to working with President @realDonaldTrump to find a confirmable, worthy successor so that we can start a new chapter at the Department of Justice and deal with both the opportunities and challenges our nation faces,”

If only he were my senator and I could vote against his wolf in sheep's clothing routine.

Irrespective of the garbage that Graham proves himself to be time and again, Sessions isn't the Hill to die on. Rosenstien won't be the Hill to die on. Mueller will be. And that hill terrifies me so much that Unagi's suggestion of break glass with a Pinkerton FBI in case of total breakdown of DOJ independence that should be unfathomable, is something I would send money to.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:08 pm**

Fake News Intern Assaulting CNN reporting that Mueller is finalizing the report. I love to think that Mueller anticipated Trump trying to kill the investigation after mid-terms and had people working double-time to get it finished before he got that chance.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:13 pm**

YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:08 pm Fake News Intern Assaulting CNN reporting that Mueller is finalizing the report. I love to think that Mueller anticipated Trump trying to kill the investigation after mid-terms and had people working double-time to get it finished before he got that chance.

I've been disappointed every step of the way. Not holding out hope now.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:23 pm**

Oh man, please let Don Jr. get indicted, please let Don Jr. get indicted, please let....

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:28 pm**

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:13 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:08 pm Fake News Intern Assaulting CNN reporting that Mueller is finalizing the report. I love to think that Mueller anticipated Trump trying to kill the investigation after mid-terms and had people working double-time to get it finished before he got that chance.
I've been disappointed every step of the way. Not holding out hope now.

Me either. Had there been a smoking gun big enough to convince the Republicans, I don't think Mueller would have sat on it this long. I suspect the report is going to be a mirror image of Starr's: Enough for most Democrats to say impeach and convict! Not enough for most Republicans.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:35 pm**

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:13 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:08 pm Fake News Intern Assaulting CNN reporting that Mueller is finalizing the report. I love to think that Mueller anticipated Trump trying to kill the investigation after mid-terms and had people working double-time to get it finished before he got that chance.
I've been disappointed every step of the way. Not holding out hope now.

This.

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:23 pm Oh man, please let all of them get indicted, please let all of them get indicted, please let....

FTFY

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:43 pm**

I wanna see Manafort make Don Jr. his prison bitch, leading him around on a leash like Lord Humungus and one of his slaves. He'll sell him for a pack of smokes and a bootleg copy of the Economist one Saturday night. Later they'll find Don Jr. curled into a ball in the weight room and crying loudly to himself after someone forced him to wear denim.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:49 pm**

Fitzy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:28 pm Me either. Had there been a smoking gun big enough to convince the Republicans, I don't think Mueller would have sat on it this long. I suspect the report is going to be a mirror image of Starr's: Enough for most Democrats to say impeach and convict! Not enough for most Republicans.

I'll accept that. What I won't accept is an institutional crushing of the investigation. Insofar as my non acceptance is sound and fury.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:50 pm**

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:23 pm Oh man, please let Don Jr. get indicted, please let Don Jr. get indicted, please let....

...before Trump pardons the turkey!

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:57 pm**

Holman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:25 pm Apparently (according to the NYT) Whitaker would be required to notify Congress if he blocks any actions by Mueller.

I'd savor the irony if, in agreeing to do what Trump has no doubt told him to do, Whitaker put his leg into a obstruction bear trap.

My understanding is that the regulation under which Mueller was appointed as Special Counsel means that the supervising official (which I think should be Whitaker) can only block a recommended action by the special counsel if it's way out of the course of normal business:

That thread has a longer "reasons to not completely flip out over Whitaker" discussion. Other than this, the other thing that was of significant comfort is that Mueller's budget is already set through summer 2019, so Whitaker likely can't zero it out immediately even if he is inclined to.

Although overall I still believe that this is a red alert.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:07 pm**

That sounds like a "norms and practices" clause.

Good luck with that stopping anyone in this administration from doing anything they want, especially if someone's ass is on the line.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:36 pm**

Whitaker was obviously picked to thwart Mueller.

This administration shits all over the rules on everything from security clearances to office furniture, so I don't see them obeying the regs when facing the #1 threat to their power.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:43 pm**

Some Republicans are saying all the right things about not stopping the Mueller investigation. Whoopity-doo.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:47 pm**

You know something, Rudy's been awful quiet the last month or so.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:50 pm**

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:47 pm You know something, Rudy's been awful quiet the last month or so.

He's been busy:

Rudy Giuliani was in state Supreme Court in New York on Wednesday, where a lawyer for Judith Giuliani claimed the former New York City mayor has spent over $900,000 since April while claiming he has financial difficulties.

Among the expenditures by "America's Mayor" were $12,012 on cigars and $7,131 on fountain pens over a five-month period, Judith Giuliani's lawyer, Bernard Clair, told Justice Michael Katz, according to NBC New York affiliate WNBC.

In that same time frame, Giuliani, 74, also spent over $286,000 on his alleged mistress, $447,938 "for his own enjoyment" and $165,000 on travel for himself, Clair said.

But since his wife filed for divorce earlier this year, Giuliani has claimed his income has dried up, Clair said, mockingly referring to the problem as "sudden income deficit syndrome."
...
Giuliani and his lawyer say he is representing Trump for free, and the court proceeding revealed what he has given up to take on special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation: from $4 million to $6 million from his former law firm, Greenberg Traurig, which he left in May.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:57 pm**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:07 pm That sounds like a "norms and practices" clause.

Good luck with that stopping anyone in this administration from doing anything they want, especially if someone's ass is on the line.

For the most part I agree, although any paperwork and formalities that they have to go through to shut down Mueller helps, as you need at least a thread of illegality to push back on things. And anything that gives Mueller some independent authority is helpful, because he can push ahead and dare them to fire him.

It's going to be a fight over the next couple years, so any and every angle is helpful.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:58 pm**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:43 pm Some Republicans are saying all the right things about not stopping the Mueller investigation. Whoopity-doo.

Honestly I'm kind of surprised that they're even doing that at this point. Beats the alternative, even if the words are almost certainly hollow.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:59 pm**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:58 pm
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:43 pm Some Republicans are saying all the right things about not stopping the Mueller investigation. Whoopity-doo.
Honestly I'm kind of surprised that they're even doing that at this point. Beats the alternative, even if the words are almost certainly hollow.

At least they didn't pour honey on me when they staked me to the ant hill is a poor consolation prize.

Presumably they are just saying "we won't stake you to an ant hill" so you won't kick up a fuss until they've figured out a way to do it quietly when no one is looking.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:06 pm**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:59 pm
El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:58 pm
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:43 pm Some Republicans are saying all the right things about not stopping the Mueller investigation. Whoopity-doo.
Honestly I'm kind of surprised that they're even doing that at this point. Beats the alternative, even if the words are almost certainly hollow.
At least they didn't pour honey on me when they staked me to the ant hill is a poor consolation prize.

Presumably they are just saying "we won't stake you to an ant hill" so you won't kick up a fuss until they've figured out a way to do it quietly when no one is looking.

I'm saying that they're words (without knowing said words or which Republicans you are referring to) are of low value, but they're not completely worthless. The main thing keeping Trump from firing Mueller is that that would be a major and politically explosive event, with unpredictable political consequences. Firing Comey, the most comparable event, was a huge uproar that cost Trump politically and led directly to Mueller's appointment. If he fires Mueller, there will be an even bigger political earthquake. You figure it's unlikely that enough Republican senators would break with Trump in order to do something about it, but it's not impossible, and if they do that would be potentially catastrophic for Trump. But any Republican Senator who pretty clearly says beforehand that Trump firing Mueller would be ok is incredibly unlikely to abandon Trump afterwards. So any such statement significantly lowers the risk to Trump of firing Mueller.

By contrast, *probably* a GOP Senator who says that firing Mueller would be a red line is not going to stick by that when and if it happens, but Trump can't necessarily assume that.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:13 pm**

El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:06 pm By contrast, *probably* a GOP Senator who says that firing Mueller would be a red line is not going to stick by that when and if it happens, but Trump can't necessarily assume that.

Perhaps not, unless he's taken a loyalty oath already.

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying, it's that I'm expressing my own personal lack of acknowledgement that they've said anything at all. Because besides the complete silence from most of the GOP on drumpf's malfeasance, the rest have said vaguely critical things only to capitulate when the time comes to do anything about it.

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:16 pm**

Holman wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:36 pm Whitaker was obviously picked to thwart Mueller.

This administration shits all over the rules on everything from security clearances to office furniture, so I don't see them obeying the regs when facing the #1 threat to their power.

Shits all over doesn't even begin to describe it. This administration arbitrarily and without warning decrees laws like its an emperor or Congress and its agents enforce them on command making irrevocable actions before the courts have a chance to the roll their eyes and tell POTUS to calm the fuck down... Of course that was before Kavenaugh, so...

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:19 pm**

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:13 pm
El Guapo wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:06 pm By contrast, *probably* a GOP Senator who says that firing Mueller would be a red line is not going to stick by that when and if it happens, but Trump can't necessarily assume that.
Perhaps not, unless he's taken a loyalty oath already.

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying, it's that I'm expressing my own personal lack of acknowledgement that they've said anything at all. Because besides the complete silence from most of the GOP on drumpf's malfeasance, the rest have said vaguely critical things only to capitulate when the time comes to do anything about it.

The trick is that while the GOP has *almost* never ultimately refused to back Trump, it's not true that they've literally never done so - see, e.g., the health care repeal bill vote. Will firing Mueller be more like the health care repeal bill, or more like the Kavanaugh confirmation or the tax cut bill? The problem is that even if the risk of the GOP Senate doing something meaningful post firing is small (1% - 5%, say), the cost if they do so is potentially huge.

Also Trump now needs to worry about the upcoming House, which will do whatever it can (like, say, calling Mueller to testify, or retaining him as counsel for the House to investigate the same matters, etc.).

Posted: **Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:39 pm**

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:29 am Just sent this email to Lindsey Graham (who is on the Senate Judiciary Committee):

"I await the "holy hell" you promised if Trump fired Sessions. Please grow a backbone, do your job and confront this growing threat to our democracy and rule of law. "

Graham in July 2017:
“If Jeff Sessions is fired, there will be holy hell to pay.”

Graham yesterday:
“I look forward to working with President @realDonaldTrump to find a confirmable, worthy successor so that we can start a new chapter at the Department of Justice and deal with both the opportunities and challenges our nation faces,”

A bit late on this, but Sessions wasn't fired, so no Holy Hell. He was asked to resign... *totally* different!

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