NCAA Football 2024 season

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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Skinypupy wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 8:58 pm
Scuzz wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 8:52 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:21 pm Michigan ending the season with wins over Ohio State and Alabama without any semblance of a passing game whatsoever (and missing most of their best on defense today) is honestly quite impressive.

Also, is DeBoer’s seat scorching already? And can Herbstreit and the other talking heads finally shut up about Bama being “more deserving” for a playoff spot?
Does anybody really care anymore about non-CFB games? I am sure both teams played without players that would have played a regular season game, and based on the crowd neither group of fans thought the trip was worth it.

But yea, hopefully it shuts up the pundits.
I don’t know about the overall rosters, but it seemed like most of Bama’s high profile players were in the game (Im sure the Bama folks will be along to correct me if I’m wrong). Seemed like Michigan was playing without more starters, especially on defense.
There were not many opt outs for Bama, many of us fans were hoping milroe would opt out, and we'd see one of the backups. A competent QB probably would have won the game for Bama.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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I didn’t expect Boise State to win the game, but I hope they keep it close. I am not a Penn State fan but I do think this is a good team.

I think Notre Dame will beat Georgia.

I think Texas will beat Arizona State.

And I hope Oregon beats Ohio State.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Lassr wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:37 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 8:58 pm
Scuzz wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 8:52 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:21 pm Michigan ending the season with wins over Ohio State and Alabama without any semblance of a passing game whatsoever (and missing most of their best on defense today) is honestly quite impressive.

Also, is DeBoer’s seat scorching already? And can Herbstreit and the other talking heads finally shut up about Bama being “more deserving” for a playoff spot?
Does anybody really care anymore about non-CFB games? I am sure both teams played without players that would have played a regular season game, and based on the crowd neither group of fans thought the trip was worth it.

But yea, hopefully it shuts up the pundits.
I don’t know about the overall rosters, but it seemed like most of Bama’s high profile players were in the game (Im sure the Bama folks will be along to correct me if I’m wrong). Seemed like Michigan was playing without more starters, especially on defense.
There were not many opt outs for Bama, many of us fans were hoping milroe would opt out, and we'd see one of the backups. A competent QB probably would have won the game for Bama.
I had thought a starting offensive lineman had already committed to Colorado.

They were also minus 4 WR’s who entered the portal.
Last edited by Scuzz on Wed Jan 01, 2025 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Ohio State at undefeated Oregon is favored by 2.5 points? That's some disrespect right there.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Jalen Milroe is the only player I have ever seen that can step onto a football field and be both the best and worst player on the field at the same time. :lol:
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 9:32 am Ohio State at undefeated Oregon is favored by 2.5 points? That's some disrespect right there.
The game isn’t exactly a home game for Oregon. It is “at” Pasadena in California.

But yes, the Ducks win over Penn State is looking like a good one now.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Jaymann wrote:Ohio State at undefeated Oregon is favored by 2.5 points? That's some disrespect right there.
Twenty million dollars worth

(OK, I don't think Oregon is getting by with no NIL $, but still)
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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I’m just hoping ASU can keep it within two scores this morning.

I think Oregon squeaks out another close win over tOSU.

Thinking ND gets to the new Georgia QB and makes life difficult. ND takes that one.

Or I could be completely wrong… 😂
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Spinning back to NIL, we've seen quite a bit about NIL promises not panning out without a contract, and, quite honestly, the folks who bought players in the past weren't exactly the most ethical or trustworthy folks, so this shouldn't be unexpected...

https://www.cbssports.com/college-baske ... ge-sports/
Last March, a rumor bubbled behind the scenes about a college basketball team that came close to boycotting a game. The gossip was about players nearly revolting against their coach because they hadn't been paid NIL money they were guaranteed. I wondered if the story could ever be verified and come out.

On Monday, it did. The team was Florida State. The game in question was against Duke; the boycott was avoided and FSU lost 76-67. Now six former Seminoles (Cam'Ron Fletcher, Darin Green Jr., De'Ante Green, Josh Nickelberry, Primo Spears, Jalen Warley) are suing their old coach, Leonard Hamilton, for "unfulfilled promises," per their attorney Darren Heitner, who has been a prominent advocate for player compensation rights for nearly a decade. .,..

...Only some players wind up signing contracts, a critical step to avoiding what happened at FSU. In this case, none of the plaintiffs put pen to paper. Instead, they agreed in part to play at FSU because of verbal assurances they'd make $250,000 apiece.

"This again points out the need for athletes to have everything in writing via written contracts. It also shows how much power the athletes have if they decide to wield it," Winter said. ...

...Winter also noted that the language and nature of NIL deals at many universities is hazy. Because schools are not allowed to directly pay players for playing NCAA sports, there is a chance the lawsuit fails. FSU's six former players allege Hamilton was speaking on payments that were to be made through business partners, rather than explicitly depicting it coming from FSU's NIL collective. Thus, there's a chance it's interpreted to be outside NCAA rules. That could impact the case if it goes to trial.

"It gets tricky because the payments were ostensibly for NIL services, not playing basketball at or attending FSU," Winter said. "Even though everyone knows that's what they were being promised payment for. There could be lots of interesting stuff that comes out of discovery, if the case gets that far."
I do think that there probably will be a work stoppage game cancelation in the near future, but that basketball is the likely culprit due to the impact a few players can have, and the fewer number of high profile players needed to do so. Plus, basketball has long had far more shady characters hanging around the fringes. The payoff is better for one golden kid in your pocket than any other sport.
Last edited by Pyperkub on Thu Jan 02, 2025 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Definitely looking like Skattebo should have waited until AFTER the game to run his mouth. Seems like he lit even more of a fire under the Texas defense

Edit: Definitely looking like I should have waited until after the game to talk my shit about Skattebo talking his shit. Dude has been amazing late in this game.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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What an insane comeback to tie it up by Arizona State. Glad I didn't turn it off.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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And now the missed TEX field goal. Crazy end to this game.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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That’s such bullshit. That was absolutely targeting on Texas.

ASU just got screwed.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Baroquen wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 5:36 pm And now the missed TEX field goal. Crazy end to this game.
Apparently that wasn't clear... now 2 missed TEX FGs. Wow. :shock:
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Damn.

Props to ASU. From being picked dead last in the B12 to being one play away from winning a playoff game is really pretty amazing.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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ASU had a great season. Nothing to feel bad about.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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At least that Auburn guy on Texas will be able to sleep at night. Maybe.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Skinypupy wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 2:09 pm I’m just hoping ASU can keep it within two scores this morning.

I think Oregon squeaks out another close win over tOSU.
I may have gotten these two games backwards… 😂
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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I was hoping Oregon would squeeze out a win, but I was afraid Ohio State would make it difficult. Turns out I quit watching by halftime,
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Scuzz wrote: Tue Dec 24, 2024 3:06 am So Fresno State’s ex-quarterback Mikey Keene has signed with Michigan. I guess the Michigan coaching staff liked what they saw of him in the opening game of the season. I thought overall he had a disappointing season although Fresno had a weak running game this year.

Good luck to him. I didn’t think he would end up at that high a profile team.
I was surprised, too. I'm guessing they wanted someone with a lot of experience to start the year, but are anticipating Underwood will take the reins at some point during the year.
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 8:58 pm
Scuzz wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 8:52 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:21 pm Michigan ending the season with wins over Ohio State and Alabama without any semblance of a passing game whatsoever (and missing most of their best on defense today) is honestly quite impressive.

Also, is DeBoer’s seat scorching already? And can Herbstreit and the other talking heads finally shut up about Bama being “more deserving” for a playoff spot?
Does anybody really care anymore about non-CFB games? I am sure both teams played without players that would have played a regular season game, and based on the crowd neither group of fans thought the trip was worth it.

But yea, hopefully it shuts up the pundits.
I don’t know about the overall rosters, but it seemed like most of Bama’s high profile players were in the game (Im sure the Bama folks will be along to correct me if I’m wrong). Seemed like Michigan was playing without more starters, especially on defense.
I don't put too much stock in bowl games because of opt outs, but in this case Michigan had 4 first rounders opting out (Graham, Grant, Johnson, and Loveland) and Bama had most of their key guys playing. I assumed we were going to lose the game, but it was fun to end the year the same way we started it - beating Alabama in a bowl game.
Apollo wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 10:54 am Jalen Milroe is the only player I have ever seen that can step onto a football field and be both the best and worst player on the field at the same time. :lol:
This is really true. When he was on during the game he was making some amazing throws. When he was off, though . . . .

And how in the world did the OSU team that destroyed Tennessee and Oregon like that only score 10 points against Michigan??? It's true, though. In fact, Michigan beat OSU 13-10 this year.

All in all, I'm about as happy as I can be with an 8-5 record. We played 4 playoff teams (and won one of those games, 13-10 against OSU, if you didn't hear) plus beat the "first team out" in our bowl game. We beat our rivals (MSU and OSU (13-10)) plus won our trophy games, despite not having a credible D1 quarterback or wide receiver. All of that with a championship afterglow.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:51 am And how in the world did the OSU team that destroyed Tennessee and Oregon like that only score 10 points against Michigan??? It's true, though. In fact, Michigan beat OSU 13-10 this year.
I think the time off not playing in the big 10 championship allowed Ohio St to really get their OL together again after the injuries, and then get the offense right again and then up to a whole new level. Also, while Oregon has a really good DL, it’s not Michigan’s. (tho in the bowl game, even Michigan's DL wasn't Michigan's due to the opt outs, tho they played really well.

The Ohio St. defense also throttled Oregon, especially early, but for most of the game overall. I really didn't expect that at all.

Simply dominant performance by Ohio St. over a really good Oregon team.

As to the other game yesterday - what a comeback by ASU, despite Leavitt being off on so many throws - he really was not sharp at all and appeared to really be pressing with a lot of high and wide throws- his legs were his primary weapon, tho I really did think that late in the 4th they needed to go for it on 4th & 5 with a minute to go at midfield. Texas doinked the FG, but IMHO it was a huge mistake to give the ball back to Texas and pray for OT. It wouldn't have been an easy call, but it seemed like probably their best chance to win the game. Tho also, they had had their own kicking woes up until that point, but giving the ball back to Texas in that situation really looked like it was going to cost them the game (and, given that they lost in OT, arguably did, tho they could easily have not gotten it and Texas would have played for the FG again and maybe made it.)
Last edited by Pyperkub on Thu Jan 02, 2025 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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As to today's delayed game - the line finally moved the direction I expected, with ND favored, tho only by 1 (I'd have ND favored by around 5-6, based on Beck being out and how lacking UGA's offensive ability to stretch the field was without him). I really think that without Beck, UGA will really struggle against ND's defense, even minus their top pass rusher. Their offense was not very good without him v. Texas in the SEC championship, but Texas never adjusted to the QB change and stayed in their 2 (really, really) high safety look, despite UGA not being able to pass the ball beyond 5 or so yards downfield and ended up playing 9 on 11 against all of the runs/qb runs/short passes UGA ran in the 2nd half.

A few weeks practice could really help UGA get the new QB playing better, but if I were ND, I'd be daring him to beat us over the top until he shows he can do it and play a ton of guys within 5-10 yds of the LoS.

However, we haven't had a point spread underdog win a game yet in these playoffs, tho ASU came really close. It has been all chalk (based on point spreads, not seeds, of course)
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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So Milroe has declared for the NFL draft. I imagine DeBoer is fine with that. Milroe can’t really believe he will play quarterback in the NFL.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Of the 4 semi-finalists it is hard to not consider Ohio State and Penn State as the big favorites.

Freeman has sure made his hiring look like a genius move.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Scuzz wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:41 pm Of the 4 semi-finalists it is hard to not consider Ohio State and Penn State as the big favorites.

Freeman has sure made his hiring look like a genius move.
Sure didn’t look that way after week 2 though.

Crazy to think a team that lost to Northern Illinois is now in the semifinals.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Penn St is not a good matchup for ND. ND will need to win the turnover battle and special teams battle by a couple of TDs again, and I don't think that happens.

Ohio St - Texas should be a doozy. Edge Ohio St, but Texas has a good chance if they don't get blitzed early like Tennessee and Oregon did.
Last edited by Pyperkub on Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Scuzz wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:59 pm So Milroe has declared for the NFL draft. I imagine DeBoer is fine with that. Milroe can’t really believe he will play quarterback in the NFL.
He reminds me of the other Jalen at Bama. Jalen Hurt, he had the same issues, yet he has developed into a decent NFL QB. Some NFL team will think they can do the same with Milroe.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Lassr wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:57 pm
Scuzz wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:59 pm So Milroe has declared for the NFL draft. I imagine DeBoer is fine with that. Milroe can’t really believe he will play quarterback in the NFL.
He reminds me of the other Jalen at Bama. Jalen Hurt, he had the same issues, yet he has developed into a decent NFL QB. Some NFL team will think they can do the same with Milroe.
The pundits are talking about how this will be a bad draft for quarterbacks, so maybe Milroe thinks he will be drafted. Hurt was a much better pocket quarterback in his college days, sure he ran with it but he didn’t seem to panic and just throw bad passes like Milroe. He also was more stable in his performance.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Milroe seems like the classic case of someone falling in love with a flawed person and thinking, "I can fix him." And who knows, maybe with the right coaching he can harness his talent and be a good NFL QB. I saw that he's considered QB3 in the draft, so I can definitely understand why he might want to take a stab at getting drafted in the first round. Ideally he lands somewhere with a veteran QB where he can understudy for a couple of years before being asked to start.

So the semis are PSU vs. ND and OSU vs. Texas. ND's offense continues to underwhelm me, so I suspect PSU will have the edge. With James Franklin coaching, though, you never know - he has a reputation for a reason. Based on how they played Michigan, I'd take Texas over OSU in a heartbeat. Based on how they're playing now, though, I think you have to give the edge to OSU. This is a super blue blood final four, even with no traditional SEC teams involved.

I think my rooting interest has to be giant meteor at this point. OSU is Michigan's #1 rival, of course, and even though we beat them 13-10 this year and that would hang over any championship, I still can't root for them. ND is Michigan's #3 rival to me (the youths may not agree), and while they're much more tolerable with Freeman as coach than Kelly, I still can't root for them. (And how funny is it that Kelly left ND to try to chase a championship at LSU?) I don't have any deep seated grudges against PSU, but there are still a lot of "Justice for JoePa" folks out there that turn me off of them. Texas is unreasonably arrogant (some might say in the same vein as Michigan), and I hate how bent out of shape they get over "Horns Down". I guess I'd probably go for PSU or Texas, with OSU being acceptable for the comedy of losing to Michigan 13-10 this year.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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ImLawBoy wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 11:19 am I think my rooting interest has to be giant meteor at this point. OSU is Michigan's #1 rival, of course, and even though we beat them 13-10 this year and that would hang over any championship, I still can't root for them. ND is Michigan's #3 rival to me (the youths may not agree), and while they're much more tolerable with Freeman as coach than Kelly, I still can't root for them. (And how funny is it that Kelly left ND to try to chase a championship at LSU?) I don't have any deep seated grudges against PSU, but there are still a lot of "Justice for JoePa" folks out there that turn me off of them. Texas is unreasonably arrogant (some might say in the same vein as Michigan), and I hate how bent out of shape they get over "Horns Down". I guess I'd probably go for PSU or Texas, with OSU being acceptable for the comedy of losing to Michigan 13-10 this year.
Can't stand Ryan Day, Texas is arrogant Texas, and Penn State's program should have been burned to the fucking ground. Three programs and/or coaches I can't stand.

I like Freeman. Also, one of my best friends and old college roommate is a huge ND fan and is going through a really tough time right now, so I'd like to see them win for him.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Skinypupy wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 11:35 am
ImLawBoy wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 11:19 am I think my rooting interest has to be giant meteor at this point. OSU is Michigan's #1 rival, of course, and even though we beat them 13-10 this year and that would hang over any championship, I still can't root for them. ND is Michigan's #3 rival to me (the youths may not agree), and while they're much more tolerable with Freeman as coach than Kelly, I still can't root for them. (And how funny is it that Kelly left ND to try to chase a championship at LSU?) I don't have any deep seated grudges against PSU, but there are still a lot of "Justice for JoePa" folks out there that turn me off of them. Texas is unreasonably arrogant (some might say in the same vein as Michigan), and I hate how bent out of shape they get over "Horns Down". I guess I'd probably go for PSU or Texas, with OSU being acceptable for the comedy of losing to Michigan 13-10 this year.
Can't stand Ryan Day, Texas is arrogant Texas, and Penn State's program should have been burned to the fucking ground. Three programs and/or coaches I can't stand.

I like Freeman. Also, one of my best friends and old college roommate is a huge ND fan and is going through a really tough time right now, so I'd like to see them win for him.
I also get the feeling that maybe, just maybe, ND is the team with the smallest amount of bought players (or at least the lowest budget), and in today's game, I can root more for that (plus the schadenfreude of the fans/boosters who shelled out so much - I don't mind seeing that as much).
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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I do think Ohio State will win it all, but as someone who rooted for Michigan as a kid (because my grandfather was from there) I don’t like Ohio State. I will never root for Penn State and I always rooted against ND when they played USC even though I didn’t like USC. I have no animosity towards Texas, so by default I guess I will be rooting for Texas.

These really are 4 teams that think way too much of themselves.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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The worst possible result is that ND somehow becomes sympathetic out of all of this. Maybe it's because I live in Chicago and have to deal with people treating ND like a home team, but their fan base is at least as arrogant as any other. Take all of Michigan's (pre-Stallions) "We do things the right way" smugness and combine it with Texas's sense of entitlement, and you start to scratch the surface of ND's arrogance.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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Hey! Conference Promotion/Relegation, er, realignment is still in the house.
Breaking: Northern Illinois’ board on Tuesday expected to accept offer to join Mountain West as football-only member in 2026, industry sources said. NIU expected to receive substantially more revenue in MW than in MAC. NIU considering options where its non-football sports will play, sources said
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

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ImLawBoy wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 2:20 pm The worst possible result is that ND somehow becomes sympathetic out of all of this. Maybe it's because I live in Chicago and have to deal with people treating ND like a home team, but their fan base is at least as arrogant as any other. Take all of Michigan's (pre-Stallions) "We do things the right way" smugness and combine it with Texas's sense of entitlement, and you start to scratch the surface of ND's arrogance.
Nah, worst possible result would have been 4 SEC teams in the semis. And yeah, I'll probably root for ND the rest of the way, I think my order is ND/PSU/OSU/TX, but it's not one I'm happy with. Might have OSU over PSU, but it's tough.
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

Post by ImLawBoy »

I meant worst case scenario given our current final four. Hell, even having four Big Ten teams in the final would be bad - especially if Michigan weren't one of them!
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

Post by JCC »

It's amazing how much change has happened in CFB the last few years. (I think mostly for the better.)

The expanded playoff coming along at about the same time as Unlimited Transfers/paying the players was perfect timing. Yes there are still haves and have nots in CFB, but not to the (ludicrous) degree there were even a few years ago. The playing field will never be even, and the blue bloods will likely still be in a club together, but so far the talent has definitely spread out. Ohio State lost twice this year (including a bed shitting at home against a signficantly less talented Michigan squad) and may still win the national title. I think attrition will become so important since the 2nd and 3rd string players on elite teams are not going to be as good as in the good old days of a few years ago.

I also find myself wondering about whether the teams with elite talent will phase out or greatly reduce the number of underclassmen they have on the roster. I don't see coaches bending over backwards to woo 18 year olds with potential over juniors who have proven they can play good/great college football. Particularly when they are shelling out millions on their rosters.

I love all this change since (so far) it has made the sport even more unpredictable and fun. I'm just sorry it's almost all over!
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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

Post by Pyperkub »

JCC wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 7:46 pm It's amazing how much change has happened in CFB the last few years. (I think mostly for the better.)
The death of the pac12 and the massive consolidation of power and teams in the SEC/Big 10 is not good, and that fallout is still being felt everywhere.

Also, I think the money (TV, at least) is going to dry up. College football is not in a healthy place right now, and when the next TV contract cycle comes around, I think the big12 is going to be hurting, if it survives. ACC would be too, but they are already in a world of hurt and their tv deal at least isn't going to go down, at least, not if the conference doesn't get blown up by the lawsuits and teams wanting out. ESPN may not even be around, tho I think it will be, but it's definitely struggling.

I think over the next few years we'll be seeing the massive consolidation by the SEC/Big 10, and the super conference/super 2 conference is going to happen by 2030. I don't know if the lesser (current) SEC/Big10 schools will be pushed out or not, but it kind of depends on how many teams the media partners want.

I think we'll also see work stoppages based on NIL shenanigans (see above) - the boosters were always corrupt, and I haven't seen anything to change that, so it's heading for a serious issue ESPECIALLY with no real, agreed upon authority anywhere. Even the SEC/Big10 commissioners are beholden to their media partners, and both ESPN and Fox Sports are going to struggle (ESPN has been for years).

We also have the increased pervasiveness of gambling, which is going to wreck a lot of lives, and maybe a program or 2.

the unlimited transfers is also damaging a TON of student athletes. Usually 30-40% don't find new scholarships and either walk on somewhere, or are pretty much out of college. It's good for some, but not most, and those it's not good for, it's REALLY not good for.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: NCAA Football 2024 season

Post by JCC »

A super conference (particularly one which only has blue bloods and casts off the chaff in the Big 10/SEC) will never happen. Because there wouldn't be enough teams to fill all the TV slots each week. Also, if all the teams are elite, then a lot of elite teams don't get to play meaningful games all year and participate in the lucrative post season. There is a heavy imbalance of talent (and voting and other power) in the SEC and Big 10. I don't expect them to act nobly for the good of the sport. But if FOX and ESPN are left with nothing but the Big 10 and SEC, there won't be enough volume to fill all the TV slots they have now. Not to mention they would lose TONS of fans of the cast off schools who would probably not watch. I don't expect the SEC and Big 10 to do what's right for all of the sport - but I don't think they are dumb enough to imbalance the field enough to give the ACC/Big 12/Pac XX zero chance to participate and do some damage in the playoff. If half the teams have zero chance to beat the other teams, viewership will plummet along with the bounty of TV money.

Things have changed disrputively the last few years, but I don't think the sky is falling. The NFL may thrive with 32 (or so?) teams. College football will not.

If in 10 years there is a 30-40 team super conference, feel free to mock me for being so wrong!
Black Lives Matter

"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts; they alter the facts to fit their views." - The 4th Doctor
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