tesla motors

[Zaxxon]

There's a plug-in Prius option, and the Prius is much bigger inside than most people realize. Plus it's a hatch, so more 'trunk' room than a sedan. Not sure of the current EV range or tax incentive status of the new plug-in Prius, tho.

[El Guapo]

As an aside, it's super annoying that the Ford Fusion PHEV is named the Ford Fusion "Energi". That "I" at the end just bugs the shit out of me.

[Zaxxon]

As an aside, it's super annoying that the Ford Fusion PHEV is named the Ford Fusion "Energi". That "I" at the end just bugs the shit out of me.

Agreed.

Here's a decent overview of the various options available and their ranges. Its focus is the upcoming plug-in Prius, but I thought it was a good overview.

Last comment on the Prius: I'm getting ready to replace my 2007 Prius, which will be a decade old this November and currently has 133k miles and change. The biggest expense thus far was replacing the spark plugs at 120k. In Toyotaland, your 100k car getting 'long in the tooth' is referred to as 'that's adorable.' If we weren't looking for something with much more space and AWD, I'd probably plan to drive my Prius to 200k.

[stessier]

Does anyone have a Chevy Volt? My main interest in this is that my 2008 Honda Civic is *starting* to get a little long in the tooth (IIRC we recently crossed 100,000 miles), and so among other things I expect that the maintenance costs are likely to spike soon-ish, and this seems like potentially a good way to get a relatively affordable new car with lower gas costs.

I'm driving a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. I just passed 190k miles. I've replaced the battery pack once - $2800. Otherwise just maintenance stuff (tires, windshield wipers, brakes, etc.). The friction plates that help it shift are going though (even though I have a CVT transmission, these still exist).

Also, the Leaf is all electric and only gets about 80 mpc. It works for some people, but it's still pretty niche. I'm curious about the Bolt, although I'd never be able to afford/allowed to buy it.

To be clear, if you drove it 81 miles without charging it would die and you'd be stuck on the road? I guess you would have to get it towed to an electric charging station?

Closer to 100 as Zaxxon pointed out, but yes.

[Zaxxon]

Yes, that's the big advantage of a PHEV over a 'real' EV--with a Volt, plug-in Prius, etc, you run out of juice and continue on gas. With a Leaf, Tesla, Bolt etc, you really don't want to run out of juice.

[Jeff V]

On the plus side, AAA is rolling out a frequent-towers card...get towed 9 times and the 10th is free!*



*Well, it could happen once there's enough of these things getting stranded.

[naednek]

Oh wait, realized that the credits are available for hybrids as well. This might merit some research - I wonder what the cheapest car is that I could get the full $10,000 in credits for.

The Volt I think is the cheapest. I don't know what your state does, but for federal it is based on battery size and there is nothing between the C-Max/Prius of the world and the Volts/Teslas.

The Leaf is cheaper than the Volt, right?

and it's fully electric

[naednek]

As someone who had a LEAF for the last 3 years (turned it in this last Saturday) I'll chime in.

The LEAF is a great commuter car and great for driving around town. If you need to drive further it can be done, but I'd recommend the fast charger option (and you have to make sure the place that is charging your car can do that). I'd take it to work and by the time I arrived I had used almost half of my battery. I charge at work for 4 hours and I'd be topped off. If you're going further, you are using more juice, which will translate into longer charging times. Unless you have the faster charging option. The fastest is 30 minutes to charge from 0-100%.

But with that said, I used mine strictly for commuting and it worked great. Never had any issues with the car. I was able to put a 55 inch TV in the back of the car without an issue (seats down) Plenty of room, plenty of leg room as well. Just make sure you have the infrastructure to support your car.

When it became harder to find a charging station at work, I would charge at home. It raised my electric bill about $40 a month. Still cheaper than gas (at the time)

[telcta]

Yes, that's the big advantage of a PHEV over a 'real' EV--with a Volt, plug-in Prius, etc, you run out of juice and continue on gas. With a Leaf, Tesla, Bolt etc, you really don't want to run out of juice.

I'm debating on going full EV next but even driving a PHEV, I can see how range anxiety would kick in. I'm able to safely test out my charging options while I'm out and not worry about running out of juice. Since all the EV cars can charge on a 110 line, you can basically plug in anywhere.

What I'm finding out from friends and family when I ask if I can plug my car into their house while visiting is this fear that their electric will be $100 higher for one charge. It takes time to explain that if your electric company charges 12 cents kW, it will cost less than a dollar for me to fully charge my vehicle at your place. Although I guess you have to be aware if anything else is on that circuit as not to trip it, but at family events, I plug in at my brother-in-law's place and never had a problem. Every now and then I bring a 6-pack.

I like the AAA idea, Jeff.

[wonderpug]

What kind of warnings to EVs give when you're getting low on battery? Do they just start going batshit insane with klaxons and flashing lights when you're on your last 10 miles or something? Do they do things like force your heater or A/C to turn off to conserve as much power as possible?

[Isgrimnur]

2016 Leaf

The driving range display will flash when the low battery charge warning light illuminates. Additionally, if you continue to drive the vehicle in this state and the Liion battery is close to being completely discharged, “---” will be displayed. Charge the Li-ion battery as soon as possible. When the Li-ion battery is charged, the original display will be restored.
...
16. Li-ion battery low charge warning

This indicator appears when the Li-ion battery is getting low. The low battery charge warning light
and the master warning light (yellow) also illuminate. . Charge the Li-ion battery as soon as possible. The symbol is shown on the vehicle information display, this indicates that further information is available on the navigation display (models with navigation system). Check the navigation display (models with navigation system) for further information and instructions.

17. Power limitation warning

This display appears when the Li-ion battery capacity is getting too low to move the vehicle or if there is any reason to limit traction power (Li-ion battery low or high temperature etc.). The power limitation indicator light and the master warning light (yellow) also illuminate.

[El Guapo]

Yes, that's the big advantage of a PHEV over a 'real' EV--with a Volt, plug-in Prius, etc, you run out of juice and continue on gas. With a Leaf, Tesla, Bolt etc, you really don't want to run out of juice.

I'm debating on going full EV next but even driving a PHEV, I can see how range anxiety would kick in. I'm able to safely test out my charging options while I'm out and not worry about running out of juice. Since all the EV cars can charge on a 110 line, you can basically plug in anywhere.

What I'm finding out from friends and family when I ask if I can plug my car into their house while visiting is this fear that their electric will be $100 higher for one charge. It takes time to explain that if your electric company charges 12 cents kW, it will cost less than a dollar for me to fully charge my vehicle at your place. Although I guess you have to be aware if anything else is on that circuit as not to trip it, but at family events, I plug in at my brother-in-law's place and never had a problem. Every now and then I bring a 6-pack.

I like the AAA idea, Jeff.

The Leaf seems like a total non-starter in that I'm not sure that I could drive to my sister's or my brother's (in southern New Hampshire) without stopping to charge - it needs to be able to at least do that to be feasible. I think the Teslas get up to 200 (?), which could work, but they're too expensive.

Hard to see going full EV at this stage (though I should probably do some homework on the model 3s), but the PHEV option is intriguing.

I also found out that Massachusetts apparently has an incentive program arrangement with a power company wherein you can get a charging station installed for $500 (instead of ~ $2,000 I think). What a great state.

[naednek]

When I turned in my leaf, I refused to give them a full charge (I'm cheap) so I started my drive at 18 miles left of charge. When I arrived, no numbers were in my estimated range. I just had --- in the display. Lets just say the last 3 miles was exciting

[Jeff V]

I also found out that Massachusetts apparently has an incentive program arrangement with a power company wherein you can get a charging station installed for $500 (instead of ~ $2,000 I think). What a great state.

If money is an issue (and in your case, it seems to be), you need to figure out the TCO of an electric vs. gasoline options of the same class. It also sounds like you are compromising in spacing and comfort by going electric, something else worth considering.

My vague interest in electric cars was invalidated with the news of another baby on the way. They don't make them big enough to hold two adults plus kids plus two strollers.

[telcta]

I believe CT subsidizes the charging stations as well. I've been around the state using different charging stations and have yet to pay. A few places require an account or a contactless CC (I was able to use Apply Pay) to unlock the charger.

Incentives

Charging Equipment

Some states offer EV buyers and businesses a credit for the purchase and costs of charging equipment.

On Friday, December 18, 2015, President Obama signed the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2016 (H.R. 2029). Division Q, the Protecting Americans from Tax Hikes Act (PATH Act), retroactively extending the tax credit for EV charging infrastructure for 2015 and going forward for 2016 ) Alternative Fuel Infrastructure Tax Credit. Section 182 extends the tax credit for alternative fuel infrastructure through December 31, 2016. Fueling equipment and related infrastructure for electricity are eligible for a tax credit of 30 percent, up to $30,000. Retroactive for EV Charging Infrastructure placed in service in 2015. This means if you installed EV charging in 2015, you can take advantage of this credit for your investment. Residential fueling equipment may receive a tax credit up to $1,000.

[El Guapo]

I also found out that Massachusetts apparently has an incentive program arrangement with a power company wherein you can get a charging station installed for $500 (instead of ~ $2,000 I think). What a great state.

If money is an issue (and in your case, it seems to be), you need to figure out the TCO of an electric vs. gasoline options of the same class. It also sounds like you are compromising in spacing and comfort by going electric, something else worth considering.

My vague interest in electric cars was invalidated with the news of another baby on the way. They don't make them big enough to hold two adults plus kids plus two strollers.

Yeah I'll need to do that. Though pure electric appears to be a non-starter, so it's mainly PHEV.

[Zaxxon]

My vague interest in electric cars was invalidated with the news of another baby on the way. They don't make them big enough to hold two adults plus kids plus two strollers.

Of course they do. They're just expensive. You've got the Tesla Model X in the full EV camp, and the Volvo XC90 T8 in the PHEV camp.

As telcta mentioned, charging equipment also gets a 30% credit through the end of this year, in addition to any incentives your state may offer.

[Jeff V]

My vague interest in electric cars was invalidated with the news of another baby on the way. They don't make them big enough to hold two adults plus kids plus two strollers.

Of course they do. They're just expensive. You've got the Tesla Model X in the full EV camp, and the Volvo XC90 T8 in the PHEV camp.

As telcta mentioned, charging equipment also gets a 30% credit through the end of this year, in addition to any incentives your state may offer.

$68,100 (base) for the Volvo and $132,000 for the Tesla. And they are both too small to live in (and the Tesla doesn't look like it has trunk space for strollers, either while the Volvo seems to be a standard SUV form factor). I could get from 2 to 4 well-equipped conventional SUVs or minivans for that price.

[Zaxxon]

That's what 'they're just expensive' means. (Though to be clear, you're off by $52,000 on the X--starts at $80k) Also, I'm in Colorado where the hippy $13,500 discount helps a little.

The XC90 is easily big enough for 3 adults, 2 kids, and half a dozen strollers. The Model X is a little smaller in back but has a frunk for more storage.

[Jeff V]

Car and Driver said $132,000, but I guess I should have found a more credible source.

[Zaxxon]

Car and Driver said $132,000, but I guess I should have found a more credible source.

Clearly that would have been better.

[El Guapo]

Is there much risk that the federal tax credit hear will go away at any point in the near future? From what I can tell it looks like the tax credit does not have an expiration date, though it also appears to be the case that the credit's availability for any given car ends once that car has sold over 200,000 units in the United States.

Just wondering whether if I want to use the credit it's especially wise to do it soon-ish or not.

[Zaxxon]

There's always the chance that Congress pulls it, but given that even the ITC covering solar got extended late last year (a more controversial 'green' credit), I'd be surprised if they do.

Then again, who knows what President Trump will do to make America great again?

[El Guapo]

There's always the chance that Congress pulls it, but given that even the ITC covering solar got extended late last year (a more controversial 'green' credit), I'd be surprised if they do.

Then again, who knows what President Trump will do to make America great again?

Ok.

Thanks for being my personal plug-in vehicle / energy tax credit consultant, by the way.

[Zaxxon]

The pay is decent.

[stessier]

The pay is decent.

As the Deflategate Intern a little tip - don't ask about the benefits.

[El Guapo]

The pay is decent.

As the Deflategate Intern a little tip - don't ask about the benefits.

Speaking of which, you should be reviewing materials related to Brady's appeal hearing this afternoon.

[Zaxxon]

Since this has morphed into a general EV/PHEV thread lately, here's a video from Geneva giving an overview of Volvo's T8 'twin engine' powertrain. I've been impressed with Volvo's approach to PHEVs because they went a similar route to Tesla with the heavy batteries placed low in the car to improve the center of gravity and minimize impact to cabin space. (Though the T8 XC90 and S90 do lose some fuel tank capacity.)

Volvo's got a super/turbocharged 2L 4-cylinder engine driving the XC90, which when combined with the electric motor yields 400 HP. Pretty cool.

[Carpet_pissr]

My vague interest in electric cars was invalidated with the news of another baby on the way. They don't make them big enough to hold two adults plus kids plus two strollers.

Congrats! And a pro-tip: If your first kid is big enough to sit or stand unassisted, much better to go the tandem "caboose" double stroller than 2 strollers IMO. Joovy makes a great one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001QF ... cts&sr=1-1

[Jeff V]

My vague interest in electric cars was invalidated with the news of another baby on the way. They don't make them big enough to hold two adults plus kids plus two strollers.

Congrats! And a pro-tip: If your first kid is big enough to sit or stand unassisted, much better to go the tandem "caboose" double stroller than 2 strollers IMO. Joovy makes a great one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001QF ... cts&sr=1-1

Yeah, I think we'll eventually go that route, but for much of the first year, the baby will need the stroller frame that the infant car seat snaps into. The stroller for our toddler is a big three-wheel jogging stroller (which I can't use for jogging because unless I lock the front wheel in place, it shakes likes it going to fall apart). The jogging stroller alone takes up most of my trunk (Altima) and my wife's entire trunk (Versa).

[Jaymann]

Apparently the opening to put down a $1k deposit is March 31, so I want to get in before the lock (and miss out on a rebate). My current lease is up in October, so my dilemma is what to do in the meantime.

[Zaxxon]

Apparently the opening to put down a $1k deposit is March 31, so I want to get in before the lock (and miss out on a rebate). My current lease is up in October, so my dilemma is what to do in the meantime.

Supposedly 3/31 in-store, 4/1 online. The issue with this is that the reveal isn't till the evening of 3/31, in CA. So it's not feasible for stores in the east (many of which are in indoor malls) to even be open after the reveal on 3/31. So will they take deposits before the reveal, or what? We shall see.

[Jaymann]

So my best bet in the west is to camp one on their stores on 3/31???

[Zaxxon]

Likely. I plan to follow up with my local store early that week. One would hope that by then they have a plan...

[Jaymann]

Likely. I plan to follow up with my local store early that week. One would hope that by then they have a plan...

Fuck, I hope its not people in line the night before. I haven't done that bullshit since Rolling Stones tickets (the early years).

[Zaxxon]

Well, like I mentioned most of Tesla's stores are at malls. Folks can't just line up the night before at many of them. Hopefully they have a plan.

Then again, we are talking about $1k deposit sight unseen for a car you may get in 2 years. I don't expect any iPhone-esque lines. Maybe in the Bay area, but not elsewhere.

[El Guapo]

Apparently the opening to put down a $1k deposit is March 31, so I want to get in before the lock (and miss out on a rebate). My current lease is up in October, so my dilemma is what to do in the meantime.

Is it definite that anyone who doesn't put down a deposit won't be able to get a rebate (if they purchase the car later)?

[Jaymann]

Apparently the opening to put down a $1k deposit is March 31, so I want to get in before the lock (and miss out on a rebate). My current lease is up in October, so my dilemma is what to do in the meantime.

Is it definite that anyone who doesn't put down a deposit won't be able to get a rebate (if they purchase the car later)?

I'm not sure, but I think it is only the first 200,000 cars, so it stands to reason.

[Zaxxon]

Apparently the opening to put down a $1k deposit is March 31, so I want to get in before the lock (and miss out on a rebate). My current lease is up in October, so my dilemma is what to do in the meantime.

Is it definite that anyone who doesn't put down a deposit won't be able to get a rebate (if they purchase the car later)?

No, but it's unlikely to be the full $7500. Barring congressional changes, the rebate starts to phase out in the 2nd calendar quarter following the company hitting 200k US sales. Right now Tesla's a bit over 50k in the US, I believe. They're shooting for 80k in 2016 worldwide, so let's say optimistically they hit 100k US sales on 1/1/2017. Then they shoot for, say 120k in 2017. That'd put them around 150k-175k sold on 1/1/18, when supposedly the Model 3 has started shipping.

Obviously those are guesstimates. But I don't see Tesla selling above those numbers, so IMO it's pretty solid that the full $7500 rebate won't start to phase until 7/1/19. Then it'd be a 50% credit through 12/31/19, and a 25% credit through 6/30/20 at which point it'd fully expire.

Play with the numbers one way or the other, and the full credit could start to phase out on 4/1/19 or 10/1/19.

Now let's say you don't put down a deposit on a Model 3. They're likely to ship only to the USA for the first several months of production, like they've done with their other models. The Model X had close to 30k reservations, and those cost $5k and were for a much more expensive car. I would think there will be 100k+ Model 3 reservations easily by the time production starts, so the first 100k vehicles produced will be to reservation holders. I would imagine folks that want to place orders at or near ship date without a reservation are looking at a year or so delay from when the first cars start shipping. So assuming no schedule slips, that'd be 1/1/19 or so, just slightly before the credit starts scaling down.

That's a highly unscientific, likely somewhat inaccurate way to say that if you are pretty sure you are interested in the Model 3, and getting the full tax credit matters to you, I'd recommend putting the $1k down. It's refundable, after all.

[Zaxxon]

CNBC poll on Model 3 deposits. I did not expect 77% to be some form of 'yes, I'll make a deposit.'

I'll be in line at my local Tesla store first thing Thursday, and I know of at least 20 other people that will be lining up. Should be a fun time--has there ever been another case of an actual line forming to reserve a vehicle that won't see the light of day for nearly 2 years?