Corona Virus: It's a Marathon, Not a Sprint

[Isgrimnur]

At least no one is talking about arming teachers anymore.

[Holman]

If we do go to online learning, I hope to God they've taken the summer to figure out how to better implement it. Because what we went through in April/May is completely unsustainable.

Virtual learning then was one or two Zoom meetings a week, and the rest was basically self-paced homework. My wife and I work full time, in jobs with multiple meetings a day. I had no way in hell to help my kids to the extent they needed help with their self-guided assignments. We pretty much spent hours of family time trying to catch up on assignments the kids fell behind on during the week.

Put a teacher in Zoom, have the kids in a virtual classroom for a full day, I'm good with it. But this self-paced "here's your assignments for the week, kids, see ya!" bullshit is not going to fly.

I have bad news for you.

It's hard to re-develop a single course in a whole new format over one summer, let alone four or five of them.

Part of me wants to see this school year school and the next taught at half-speed so that instructors have time to organize and teach effectively at a distance, and just have everyone graduate one year later than planned. I'm not entirely joking.

[stessier]

Given that, choosing the virtual option seems wise simply to avoid the mess that is constantly changing the method of learning. I think a stable plan will be easier on the kids and the teachers.

I'm with you on stability being easier on the kids from a learning standpoint. My fear is the effect that being all-online will have on social development. These kids have already lost virtually all socialization for 4 months (>5% of my youngest's entire life, which sounds crazy when I think of it that way). Making that 14 months (17% of her life!) is just terrifying to me. Yes, we've got Zoom and the like to get some minor component of socialization going in the interim, but it's not at all comparable.

Maybe everyone springs back into normal development just fine. Maybe they don't.

Homeschooling is a thing and has been for a while. Social development definitely suffers, but that seems to be the case for years of it rather than a year of it. And in this case, they will have social interaction, it will just be over Zoom or whatever (as compared to full homeschooling that is a much smaller group). But I'm speaking as someone with a 6th and 9th grader - I could certainly see it being different with different ages.

Put a teacher in Zoom, have the kids in a virtual classroom for a full day, I'm good with it.

That is the plan for our virtual learning - periods of a live instructor as well as periods of home work. The live periods will also be taped so that families with home situations that don't allow for the students to be on during those periods can still get the material. Here is a sample plan for middle school. Way more organized that what we had in the Spring.

[Little Raven]

It's hard to re-develop a single course in a whole new format over one summer, let alone four or five of them.

I agree. Education is a big, BIG ship. It doesn't turn on a dime, or over a summer.

If we do go online again, I'd expect very marginal improvements over what we saw in April. It will definitely put an additional load on parents. (and teachers won't be exactly thrilled either)

[Octavious]

If we do go to online learning, I hope to God they've taken the summer to figure out how to better implement it. Because what we went through in April/May is completely unsustainable.

Virtual learning then was one or two Zoom meetings a week, and the rest was basically self-paced homework. My wife and I work full time, in jobs with multiple meetings a day. I had no way in hell to help my kids to the extent they needed help with their self-guided assignments. We pretty much spent hours of family time trying to catch up on assignments the kids fell behind on during the week.

Put a teacher in Zoom, have the kids in a virtual classroom for a full day, I'm good with it. But this self-paced "here's your assignments for the week, kids, see ya!" bullshit is not going to fly.

Ya all my friends with little kids really struggled with that kind of crap. My daughter starts HS so I'm really hoping she can at least go into school a few times a week. It looks like from the messages I got this week that they will do a revolving schedule to keep the number of kids down. If they do not supply buses I will lose my mind. That was one of the questions they sent out to us. I could drop her off in the morning, but the afternoon would be impossible for us.

[Zaxxon]

I'm with you on stability being easier on the kids from a learning standpoint. My fear is the effect that being all-online will have on social development. These kids have already lost virtually all socialization for 4 months (>5% of my youngest's entire life, which sounds crazy when I think of it that way). Making that 14 months (17% of her life!) is just terrifying to me. Yes, we've got Zoom and the like to get some minor component of socialization going in the interim, but it's not at all comparable.

Maybe everyone springs back into normal development just fine. Maybe they don't.

Homeschooling is a thing and has been for a while. Social development definitely suffers, but that seems to be the case for years of it rather than a year of it. And in this case, they will have social interaction, it will just be over Zoom or whatever (as compared to full homeschooling that is a much smaller group). But I'm speaking as someone with a 6th and 9th grader - I could certainly see it being different with different ages.

This is not analogous to homeschooling. At. All. Homeschooled kids still get play dates, parties, etc. Zoom is just such a non-substitute, especially at the younger ages. I can see how as a parent of a 6th/9th grader you'd see it as much more of a suitable stand-in. In the young elementary grades, it just doesn't cut it.

[Smoove_B]

Ya all my friends with little kids really struggled with that kind of crap. My daughter starts HS so I'm really hoping she can at least go into school a few times a week. It looks like from the messages I got this week that they will do a revolving schedule to keep the number of kids down. If they do not supply buses I will lose my mind. That was one of the questions they sent out to us. I could drop her off in the morning, but the afternoon would be impossible for us.

Check your email. We got a letter today.

On topic: I genuinely feel for parents with young (younger than 12?) children at this point. My wife and I have been able to stay at home F/T (and will be able to do so at least through January) and I honestly don't know what I would have done (even with that ability) to help/assist/threaten schooling for a younger child.

I guess in a perfect world we should ideally be focusing on getting younger kids back in a school-like environment and having older kids going remote as much as possible. I just don't know. We're collectively in uncharted waters and I would hate to be a school administrator right now or at some point over the next 4 months if a kid gets sick and/or has COVID complications.

[Holman]

This is not analogous to homeschooling. At. All. Homeschooled kids still get play dates, parties, etc. Zoom is just such a non-substitute, especially at the younger ages. I can see how as a parent of a 6th/9th grader you'd see it as much more of a suitable stand-in. In the young elementary grades, it just doesn't cut it.

Yeah, my kids are going into 9th and 11th grade, so they're somewhat able to self-direct their studies and manage a week's worth of assignments with a few scheduled online meets.

I can't imagine how this spring even felt like "school" at all if you had, say, a fourth-grader.

[Smoove_B]

https://twitter.com/ashtonpittman/statu ... 5916140544

‘Mississippi Hospitals Cannot Take Care of Mississippi Patients’: Five ICUs Full as Virus Booms

[YellowKing]

Tate Reeves should be hauled into those ICUs to see it firsthand.

[stessier]

I can see how as a parent of a 6th/9th grader you'd see it as much more of a suitable stand-in. In the young elementary grades, it just doesn't cut it.

Yeah, my kids are on Zoom/Google Chat for a minimum of 2 hours a day right now with their friends. It's not quite the same, but it's not all that different either.

[coopasonic]

I can't imagine how this spring even felt like "school" at all if you had, say, a fourth-grader.

I could send my wife to talk to you but you'd likely need therapy after. So will my 4th grader.

[Remus West]

I can't imagine how this spring even felt like "school" at all if you had, say, a fourth-grader.

I could send my wife to talk to you but you'd likely need therapy after. So will my 4th grader.

Heh, my second grader and wife feel much the same. I will say though that her teacher did a great job of proving tons of learning opportunities for my daughter. So many that it was confusing for my wife keeping up and impossible for me to do it in the few minutes between my own teaching work.

[Skinypupy]

On topic: I genuinely feel for parents with young (younger than 12?) children at this point. My wife and I have been able to stay at home F/T (and will be able to do so at least through January) and I honestly don't know what I would have done (even with that ability) to help/assist/threaten schooling for a younger child.

My kids did OK with online school this spring, but were bucking against it HARD by the time it was over. The Wonder Twins 7.1 would spend twice as much time crying that they had to do their work as they did actually doing it. Just 3 months of trying to wrangle them to sit in front of the computer all day damn near broke Mrs. Skinypupy...I can't imagine what a full year is going to do.

We're lucky in that I work from home (so I can occasionally help) and she only works one afternoon a week, as trying to keep three kids engaged in online school is absolutely a full-time job. I have no idea how families with two working parents manage it.

[Holman]

https://twitter.com/ashtonpittman/statu ... 5916140544

‘Mississippi Hospitals Cannot Take Care of Mississippi Patients’: Five ICUs Full as Virus Booms

Ashton Pittman is definitely a good follow if you want to know what's going on in Mississippi.

[Zaxxon]

I'm an epidemiologist and a dad. Here's why I think schools should reopen.

Not endorsing the piece, but I did find its mention of the unknown risk of reopening vs known harm of not reopening paradigm interesting.

[malchior]

I'm an epidemiologist and a dad. Here's why I think schools should reopen.

Not endorsing the piece, but I did find its mention of the unknown risk of reopening vs known harm of not reopening paradigm interesting.

I would like to see another more learned person take a look at this because he spends a lot of the article comparing us to countries that mostly contained the virus. On top we are are insanely unprepared for this compared to almost every country. We aren't going to protect people in a sane manner and heck we might not know there is an outbreak until it is everywhere in a school depending on the testing load at the time. I can't help but wonder if the author is not gauging the total risk properly.

I get what they are saying in the latter half about the risks of not sending them to school education-wise but that is just slightly more certain guessing. I think its all reasonable but saying the risks of remote education are known is probably not grounded. Common sense says that home schooling is going to lead to worse results but we won't be able to test that proposition to quantify it anytime soon.

[Smoove_B]

It's good.

Milt is fond of the expression “a decision has to be made.” His wisdom has never been more pertinent than it is today. We have to make a decision. There is no choice to do nothing, because either way — go to school or learn remotely — we are making a decision.

But he blew it by not quoting Rush instead (maybe).

[Smoove_B]

I can't help but wonder if the author is not gauging the total risk properly.

In fairness, no one knows. All we can do is look elsewhere. We have limited data here in the US, but broad-brushing is all we can do. The equation is also wacky because what's good for the kids isn't necessarily good for the teachers or even the parents. There's three (or more) variables and we arbitrarily need to decide which one is the most important to weigh.

We're asking kids and teachers to (mostly) do what we won't let restaurants engage in - indoor contact for a prolonged period of time and just assuming the global data is right.

I cannot fault someone for keeping a child at home. I can't fault someone for sending a child to school. This is a incredibly difficult decision we're collectively being asked to shoulder, and not just once - but daily. There will not be an immediate consequence to whatever decision is made.

[Alefroth]

SC breaks out the number of beds taken by COVID vs. all other patients so it's easy to see the changes. Do other states not do this?

If they did, do you think her answer would be different?

She may be the worst one yet.

[Alefroth]

We had an overview of our (elementary) school's reopening plan this week:

-Families are to self-screen and keep anyone home with any symptoms of any sort. In-school screening for anyone developing symptoms at the school.
-Staggered entry/exit to/from the building. A few at a time through each door.
-Masks to be worn by all kids and staff in shared areas, but not at desks.
-Loads of sanitizer and extra masks available at the school.
-Classrooms rejiggered to have desks 6+ feet apart. Looking at plexiglass shields where possible, but not on all desks.
-HVAC adjustments to improve airflow.
-Lunch will be consumed in the classroom.
-Playground equipment will be taped off. Recess will consist of individual play near each other, but not with each other or using shared stuff.
-Art/Tech/Music/PE, which ordinarily take place in their own rooms, will instead see the teacher visiting the classroom for these sessions.
-No field trips.
-School buses capped at ~30% normal capacity, alternating seating, requiring masks.
-No parent volunteers in the building. Any volunteering by parents will be outside and distanced, eg recess helpers.
-Remote option available for families not comfortable returning.

Seems like about as reasonable a plan as is feasible for an elementary school (eg taking into account the fact that expecting first-graders to wear masks for a full school day in an effective manner is a non-starter). But I'm still not sure what to think. Do I want my kids back in school this fall? Absolutely. Will they be going? TBD.

Definitely interested in thoughts of OOers on this plan, how it relates to your local school's plans, etc.

Is an environment like this really that much better than distance learning? Or is it mostly about getting kids out of the house so parents can work?

[Smoove_B]

https://twitter.com/GovWhitmer/status/1 ... 0525766658

I want to make this clear — I will not send our kids and our education workforce into our schools unless it is safe to do so, plain and simple. I have made decisions based on science and facts to keep Michiganders safe since the beginning, and won’t stop now.

[malchior]

SC breaks out the number of beds taken by COVID vs. all other patients so it's easy to see the changes. Do other states not do this?

If they did, do you think her answer would be different?

She may be the worst one yet.

Yeah it is isn't even worth pondering. She is lying. She doesn't care that you know she is lying. She does it because she can.

[Zaxxon]

Is an environment like this really that much better than distance learning? Or is it mostly about getting kids out of the house so parents can work?

Socially, yes. It'd be night and day better. Distance learning this spring consisted of self-directed assignments for K and 2nd graders, with one to two short video meetings/week. Contact with classmates was via a school social network, which at their age doesn't bring much socializing...

It was a nightmare, honestly, even aside from the fact that my wife and I both work (me from home). There's no way they were getting what they needed. And I don't fault the teachers, as they did an admirable job under the circumstances.

[malchior]

I can't help but wonder if the author is not gauging the total risk properly.

In fairness, no one knows. All we can do is look elsewhere. We have limited data here in the US, but broad-brushing is all we can do. The equation is also wacky because what's good for the kids isn't necessarily good for the teachers or even the parents. There's three (or more) variables and we arbitrarily need to decide which one is the most important to weigh.

We're asking kids and teachers to (mostly) do what we won't let restaurants engage in - indoor contact for a prolonged period of time and just assuming the global data is right.

I cannot fault someone for keeping a child at home. I can't fault someone for sending a child to school. This is a incredibly difficult decision we're collectively being asked to shoulder, and not just once - but daily. There will not be an immediate consequence to whatever decision is made.

Right there is no blinking light saying this is stupid, you idiots! It just seems wacky that we've done everything wrong but somehow we're going to get this extremely complicated problem right? That is why I'd err on the side of caution because this is inevitably going to go very wrong no matter what. At least in one scenario a lot of people might not end up sick, dead, or stuck with something that'll debilitate them long-term.

[Zaxxon]

It just seems wacky that we've done everything wrong but somehow we're going to get this extremely complicated problem right?

I saw one comment on this that hit home. With all their resources and desire to protect their considerable investments in players, zero sports leagues have managed to get through even the first few weeks of closed practices without some infections. Schools have no chance.

[Smoove_B]

I'm trying to be more accommodating as I was told my calls to shut everything down back in April were unreasonable and impossible.

I think middle and high school should likely be remote. If it were possible to create focused plans for K-5 schooling and guarantee they have resources and strong partnerships with local/county health agencies I think I would feel better. Broadly I'm more concerned for the adults in the equation (at the schools, supporting the schools). As someone that had their (maybe) employer nope us right the hell out of face-to-face instruction for the foreseeable future I'd be an awful person if I somehow expected F/T elementary teachers to endure what we already said adults should not.

We just might need to start accepting (as Holman suggested) that we have a cohort of kids that are getting something, but it's not like the school we all remember. How that affects them 15+ years from now, I have no idea. But I'm also not sure how having them staggered in a classroom, wearing masks and not interacting with one another while being so close will impact them either.

There's just no shortage of unknowns here.

[Alefroth]

Is an environment like this really that much better than distance learning? Or is it mostly about getting kids out of the house so parents can work?

Socially, yes. It'd be night and day better. Distance learning this spring consisted of self-directed assignments for K and 2nd graders, with one to two short video meetings/week. Contact with classmates was via a school social network, which at their age doesn't bring much socializing...

It was a nightmare, honestly, even aside from the fact that my wife and I both work (me from home). There's no way they were getting what they needed. And I don't fault the teachers, as they did an admirable job under the circumstances.

I guess it's better than nothing, but having to be separated and basically treating each other as if getting too close could be harmful seems like it could have unpredictable effects.

[Alefroth]

Is an environment like this really that much better than distance learning? Or is it mostly about getting kids out of the house so parents can work?

Socially, yes. It'd be night and day better. Distance learning this spring consisted of self-directed assignments for K and 2nd graders, with one to two short video meetings/week. Contact with classmates was via a school social network, which at their age doesn't bring much socializing...

It was a nightmare, honestly, even aside from the fact that my wife and I both work (me from home). There's no way they were getting what they needed. And I don't fault the teachers, as they did an admirable job under the circumstances.

I guess it's better than nothing, but having to be separated and basically treating each other as if getting too close could be harmful seems like it could have unpredictable effects.

Speaking from the kids' point of view, not how it affects parents.

[malchior]

Is an environment like this really that much better than distance learning? Or is it mostly about getting kids out of the house so parents can work?

Socially, yes. It'd be night and day better. Distance learning this spring consisted of self-directed assignments for K and 2nd graders, with one to two short video meetings/week. Contact with classmates was via a school social network, which at their age doesn't bring much socializing...

It was a nightmare, honestly, even aside from the fact that my wife and I both work (me from home). There's no way they were getting what they needed. And I don't fault the teachers, as they did an admirable job under the circumstances.

I guess it's better than nothing, but having to be separated and basically treating each other as if getting too close could be harmful seems like it could have unpredictable effects.

I'm not too worried about that aspect because it is completely not going to happen. The kids will interact. The teachers aren't going to be the police for more than 30 minutes the first day. The whole thing is unworkable if you spend 5 minutes thinking about how it will go.

[Smoove_B]

https://twitter.com/GarrettHaake/status ... 1621985280

DISD’s Hinojosa said high school football is doubtful for the fall: “That’s a true contact sport, I don't see how we can pull that off. There's been some discussion of moving it to the Spring, but we'll have to wait and see. I don't, I seriously doubt that we can pull that off.”

That's the Dallas Independent School District. I have to believe this is going to to cause outrage.

[Victoria Raverna]

I don't understand why people think it is very bad for young students to study remotely during this pandemic. It is not as if they're going to do it every semester.

If it is not possible to do it remotely, just skip one year. They'll graduate one year older than normal but that is nothing compare to the risk of COVID-19.

[YellowKing]

I don't think remote learning is bad, it's just that with young kids it's almost impossible to do. Try telling a 7 year old that he needs to sit down unsupervised for 6 hours and do X number of homework assignments - oh, and there won't be anyone to help him when he has a question.

It's like a headline I saw: "You can have kids, or you can have a job. You can't have both."

[Smoove_B]

Yes, yes it is.

https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status ... 1588501504

This is so painful for public health professionals to see.

[Isgrimnur]

I guess it's better than nothing, but having to be separated and basically treating each other as if getting too close could be harmful seems like it could have unpredictable effects.

Speaking from the kids' point of view, not how it affects parents.

Kids came through prairie frontier schools, polio summers, and evacuation to the London countryside during the blitz.

DISD’s Hinojosa said high school football is doubtful for the fall: “That’s a true contact sport, I don't see how we can pull that off. There's been some discussion of moving it to the Spring, but we'll have to wait and see. I don't, I seriously doubt that we can pull that off.”

That's the Dallas Independent School District. I have to believe this is going to to cause outrage.

Football in Texas is totally an afterthought. No one down here cares about football.

[Alefroth]

I guess it's better than nothing, but having to be separated and basically treating each other as if getting too close could be harmful seems like it could have unpredictable effects.

Speaking from the kids' point of view, not how it affects parents.

Kids came through prairie frontier schools, polio summers, and evacuation to the London countryside during the blitz.

Coming through it isn't the same as being unaffected. Not to mention that kids and society as a whole are worlds different than they were during those periods.

[LawBeefaroni]

The e-sports pool is going to be huge though.

[Isgrimnur]

I guess it's better than nothing, but having to be separated and basically treating each other as if getting too close could be harmful seems like it could have unpredictable effects.

Speaking from the kids' point of view, not how it affects parents.

Kids came through prairie frontier schools, polio summers, and evacuation to the London countryside during the blitz.

Coming through it isn't the same as being unaffected. Not to mention that kids and society as a whole are worlds different than they were during those periods.

You'll notice that I didn't make a judgement statement about the outcomes there.

[Zaxxon]

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/12814 ... 76961?s=19

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Infallible logic!