Octopus Overlords

Age is a factor. Also, anecdote is anecdotal.

Jeff V wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:02 pmNot sure why CPS schools would be less safe than those in the 'burbs. My son has been in class since mid-August and hasn't infected us yet...nor has his teacher gone mysteriously absent.

Well, I mean, as long as you're not sick yet the rest of us are safe.

Paingod wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:18 am

Jeff V wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:02 pmNot sure why CPS schools would be less safe than those in the 'burbs. My son has been in class since mid-August and hasn't infected us yet...nor has his teacher gone mysteriously absent.

Well, I mean, as long as you're not sick yet the rest of us are safe.

Last week there was 4 positive cases reported at the school. Allegedly, they let anyone know who has had contact with infected people (they don't say if it's staff or students) that they have been exposed, over the dozens of such notices received since the start of the school year, we've never been told there's been direct contact.

Jeff V wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:05 amover the dozens of such notices received since the start of the school year, we've never been told there's been direct contact.

This sort of thing is why I'm sitting in my corner office at work, isolated from everyone else, but still wearing a face mask. With kids in school nearly full time now, I expect that it's just a matter of time before one of the notices includes us. I'm trying to keep my co-workers safe as much as possible if/when it does happen.

Paingod wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:15 am

Jeff V wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:05 amover the dozens of such notices received since the start of the school year, we've never been told there's been direct contact.

This sort of thing is why I'm sitting in my corner office at work, isolated from everyone else, but still wearing a face mask. With kids in school nearly full time now, I expect that it's just a matter of time before one of the notices includes us. I'm trying to keep my co-workers safe as much as possible if/when it does happen.

I will say my kids have been going to school full time since the beginning of the school year. Our schools never went to remote or hybrid learning. I go into a hospital about 2-3 times a week, and work there and my wife works in a bakery. We live in Ohio, in the northern part by Cleveland, and have been in a hot spot for a while. I don't work directly with patients, and I am a manager so it distances me more. But we have not had any Covid in our household. So we have been lucky. All ancedotal evidance, and I am sure most of that is luck, and drilling into my kids head about hand washing, and having wipes and hand sanatizer in the cars, etc..

So it is possible to not get it while kids are going to school. With that said, I have had staff that were taking every precaution and they did get it. Everyone that I know only got a mild case of it, so that was positive for the people I know.

This is in no way me telling people not to wear masks or not be careful, just a highlight, that even with going to school and working with others and not secluded in your house, you can still avoid it. But please wear a mask, and social distance as much as possible.

So hopefully others willhave the experience that my family is having, and we can hopefully get rid of this.

Jeff V wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:02 pm Not sure why CPS schools would be less safe than those in the 'burbs. My son has been in class since mid-August and hasn't infected us yet...nor has his teacher gone mysteriously absent. The crossing guard got it, though.

Could be any number of factors, from population density to age of buildings to air circulation. But if you guys have been safe so far, it only makes sense that everyone else will be safe.

Jeff V wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:02 pm Not sure why CPS schools would be less safe than those in the 'burbs. My son has been in class since mid-August and hasn't infected us yet...nor has his teacher gone mysteriously absent. The crossing guard got it, though.

Major factors:

Inequity across the 640+ schools. Some schools have air filtration, others just plan to open the windows in February. In Chicago.

Disparity of plans. Pods? Alternating days? There is no consistency.

CTU. The Union gonna union.

Call me the nutty one because I dont know what Im talking about admittedly....but if I had absolute rule over schools I would have closed them fully by March and wouldn't open for any classes until full vaccination is achieved late this year. All would have been home schooled. Then again if I was dictator or a small island Id have free broadband in every home already and most school would be at home anyways hehehe. Getting up and riding a large car to a building and having to eat there and then come back later is so old school..so to speak.

Poverty is a big factor, too. Overcrowded schools with inferior infrastructure, less access to quality medical care, poor nutrition, less informed parents, and so forth all run hand in hand with money. And just a wild guess, but in Jeff's kids' school in the 'burbs, poverty probably isn't a major issue.

Daehawk wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:33 am Call me the nutty one because I dont know what Im talking about admittedly....but if I had absolute rule over schools I would have closed them fully by March and wouldn't open for any classes until full vaccination is achieved late this year. All would have been home schooled. Then again if I was dictator or a small island Id have free broadband in every home already and most school would be at home anyways hehehe. Getting up and ridding a large car to a building and having to eat there and then come back later is so old school..so to speak.

Not nutty, but it makes the same mistake a lot of people were making early on. A preschooler is essentially a toddler. A high school senior is an adult. They have different developmental needs, they have different risks, and they have different levels of ability to act on their own. There is no single solution that is appropriate for both a five year old and an 18-year-old. During much of the past year, there have been times when there was no real reason to keep younger elementary kids home other than teacher safety, while keeping them home would have huge, possibly permanent consequences, plus it would require a full time parent (ie - not working), babysitter (not safe or affordable to most), or daycare (at which point they might as well be in school.) At the same time, high school kids shouldn't have been anywhere near a school, and are generally capable of self-management at home. If we latchkey kids could handle it for our entire childhoods, they can handle it for a year or two.

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:14 pm During much of the past year, there have been times when there was no real reason to keep younger elementary kids home other than teacher safety, while keeping them home would have huge, possibly permanent consequences, plus it would require a full time parent (ie - not working), babysitter (not safe or affordable to most), or daycare (at which point they might as well be in school.)

Not to mention the cost involved in providing equipment (computers) and access (internet) to those without. There's a reason (well, a lot of reasons, really) that this pandemic is hitting poor people harder than others.

When our son was doing home school at end of the last school year and during summer school, we could barely get him to spend an hour on school work. He does extremely well in school, though. When he gets home from school, we do homework for about 30 minutes and then he uses his school-provided Chromebook to do some online learning for about another 30 minutes...that one hour total seems to be a hard stop for him.

When I go walking the dog, or shopping on what's a school day I see lots of kids in school or shopping with their parents. A friend of mine would take his two boys to Top Golf, the only school work they did was attend 30 minute Zoom sessions. And there are plenty of kids in high school that are not self-starters and not naturally inclined to do well either. Hell, I'd say half the reason I did as well as I did in high school was peer pressure (I hung out with a good crowd), and I don't know how you bring those sort of intangibles to home school.

It isn't easy, and there isn't a 'good' solution. It's a balancing act between impact on families, impact on the kids, and the danger of being in a confined area with others during a pandemic. Neither 'all school, all the time' nor 'no school, ever' is a good balance.

Jeff V wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:18 pm and I don't know how you bring those sort of intangibles to home school.

I'm going to sound like a dick probably by saying this, you bring that home by parenting. My oldest is in grade 10, my youngest grade 7 - both are pulling stellar marks. Yes sometimes they gripe about how their friends aren't doing every single assignment "because it doesn't really count", yeah well my kids do every damn assignment.

It also helps that I have a great job that thankfully was easily portable into the pandemic (i already worked at home whenever I wanted, which was a lot based on my commute distance to Toronto) - I can afford to walk over and keep tabs on what's happening, make sure work is done and kids are fed etc.

I couldn't imagine being a single parent that works retail right now, kids at home - what the hell do you do? Government assistance I guess and hope there's a job waiting on the other side.

FishPants wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:16 pmI'm going to sound like a dick probably by saying this, you bring that home by parenting.

I find that parenting isn't all that different from raising a creature in the old Black & White game (sans the smacking). If you left the creature to do whatever it wanted, it shit everywhere and ruined everything. If you created a feedback loop with positive reinforcement, you could direct it to be a contributing member of the community.

There's just not Load button for when one of my kids discovers they can eat villagers.

Paingod wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:23 pm

FishPants wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:16 pmI'm going to sound like a dick probably by saying this, you bring that home by parenting.

I find that parenting isn't all that different from raising a creature in the old Black & White game (sans the smacking). If you left the creature to do whatever it wanted, it shit everywhere and ruined everything. If you created a feedback loop with positive reinforcement, you could direct it to be a contributing member of the community.

There's just not Load button for when one of my kids discovers they can eat villagers.

also a lesson in unintended consequences. i was raising my cow avatar to be vegetarian and noticed it eventually started emanating black smoke and growing scales. turns out that eating wheat from the fields was stealing from the villagers, which was interpreted by the game logic to be an 'evil act'.

It's worth keeping in mind that not all minds are wired the same, and what might work for some kids doesn't necessarily work for others.

ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:36 pm It's worth keeping in mind that not all minds are wired the same, and what might work for some kids doesn't necessarily work for others.

Right, am I'm not sure how "better parenting" substitutes for lack of social interaction with peers.

When we moved to where we are, my son was about as socialized as your average wolf boy. We sent him to all day preschool specifically to address this, and it worked. His 4 year old sister is a major distraction at home, either she's watching something on TV he wants to watch, or she wants to play, or is otherwise being disruptive. Knowing that his sister is in the basement playing Xbox to stay out of his way doesn't exactly put in him a proper mindset, either.

Again, there isn't a good solution. But each solution comes with costs, and the extreme solutions (all school, no school) come with extreme costs.

Actually the whole Covid/school thing has worked out better than I thought it would.

dbt1949 wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:32 pm Actually the whole Covid/school thing has worked out better than I thought it would.

Time will tell. As a recent letter from numerous prominent British experts on the subject of children's mental health put it:

Covid-19 having 'devastating effect' on children

BBC.com wrote:Northern Ireland's mental health champion is among child health experts warning of the "devastating effect" of the coronavirus pandemic on children.

Professor Siobhan O'Neill was among more than 50 signatories to a letter calling children's welfare "a national emergency".

It was published in the Observer newspaper on Sunday.

Professor O'Neill was appointed Northern Ireland's interim mental health champion in June 2020.

She is also professor of mental health sciences at Ulster University (UU).

The letter calls for the establishment of an independent UK-wide commission "to inform a cross-government strategy to steer children and young people clear from the lingering effects of Covid-19".

"The pandemic is having a devastating effect on the childhoods of children and young people across the country," it said.

"Growing numbers of hard-pressed families are being swept into poverty, with more than four million children living in poverty even before Covid wrecked the economy."

'Yawning education gap'
The letter also said the fact that many children were not in school due to lockdowns had created many additional problems.

Some headteachers have previously told BBC News NI of their concerns about the effects of Covid-19 on the mental health and wellbeing of children, an issue this letter has also addressed.

"The closure of schools has widened the yawning education gap," it said.

"The spiralling numbers of young people suffering mental illness and psychological distress look certain to increase with every day that lockdown keeps them isolated and uncertain about their futures."

ImLawBoy wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:36 pm It's worth keeping in mind that not all minds are wired the same, and what might work for some kids doesn't necessarily work for others.

Some kids are simply hard to parent. Kids are individuals just like we are individuals. Some kids are on the autism spectrum or otherwise disabled. I consider myself extremely fortunate to have been able to raise a kid that could and would hear me. Not all are so lucky.

Jeff V wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:45 pm
Right, am I'm not sure how "better parenting" substitutes for lack of social interaction with peers.

When we moved to where we are, my son was about as socialized as your average wolf boy. We sent him to all day preschool specifically to address this, and it worked. His 4 year old sister is a major distraction at home, either she's watching something on TV he wants to watch, or she wants to play, or is otherwise being disruptive. Knowing that his sister is in the basement playing Xbox to stay out of his way doesn't exactly put in him a proper mindset, either.

Because that's not what you said, you were pondering how you bring home those intangibles - and my response is the same, parent. If your kid isn't a self starter, parent. If your kid wants to play xbox instead of homework, parent. If your kid doesn't want to do homework and instead wants to go out for a walk, parent.

Note that parenting doesn't mean "no" all the time either when I made the reference, I've allowed my daughter to log off from her online class because the subject matter wasn't relevant or she was already done (or could easily be done later) in lieu of a family activity. I also fully recognize that a lot of people aren't in my situation and can't be there to parent, but if you're home - that's kind of the deal yo.

My kids hate it when I parent. It always leads to playing board games, spending time outside, arts and crafts, and cleaning their room.

My parents let me run wild in the mountains.
I wasn't around to bother them and I was having fun. Win win.
Then again my parents lucked out and were able to trust me.

My son in particular has a tendency to become belligerent when he doesn't want to do something. This rubs my "respect for authority" gene the wrong way and winds up with him spending time in the "tantrum room" (aka walk-in beer cooler aka garage). I don't really want negative experiences to be associated with education -- but it's inevitable when he refuses to comply. Fortunately, such battles aren't all that common and his grudge wears off quickly (my wife, OTOH, is not so quick to forgive).

My daughter is a little more pragmatic...she's 3 years younger than my son but won't push things like he does. If she doesn't want to do something, she doesn't, and fully accepts the consequence. This is potentially worse, she's not in school yet and I'd rather she accepts that there's things she ought to do, whether she wants to or not.

dbt1949 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 pm My parents let me run wild in the mountains.
I wasn't around to bother them and I was having fun. Win win.
Then again my parents lucked out and were able to trust me.

I remember those days. We roamed the woods and the neighborhood with abandon and came home when we felt like it.

Jeff V wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:06 pm My son in particular has a tendency to become belligerent when he doesn't want to do something. This rubs my "respect for authority" gene the wrong way and winds up with him spending time in the "tantrum room" (aka walk-in beer cooler aka garage). I don't really want negative experiences

As long as you're stocking the lower-alcohol IPAs, he's not having negative experiences.

Jaymann wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:54 pm

dbt1949 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 pm My parents let me run wild in the mountains.
I wasn't around to bother them and I was having fun. Win win.
Then again my parents lucked out and were able to trust me.

I remember those days. We roamed the woods and the neighborhood with abandon and came home when we felt like it.

Free-range parenting didn't need a name when I was a kid. We had to go in for lunch, and then again when the streetlights came on. My parents didn't worry much about what happened in between as long as I was with my friends and in the neighborhood.

Same. But if I was out past dark uh oh.

Back in the day you were monitored by stay-at-home mothers more than willing to report the kids for minor infractions and ostracize other parents for their children’s actions.

Big Mama is no longer Watching.

Zarathud wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 am Back in the day you were monitored by stay-at-home mothers more than willing to report the kids for minor infractions and ostracize other parents for their children’s actions.

Big Mama is no longer Watching.

When I said we had to come in for lunch, I didn't say at whose house. Mothers were fungible then.

Actually I had to come home whenever my mom yelled, which was lunch and supper. she could yell loud enough to be heard in Kansas and we lived in California. Some kind of special mom boost in her voice.

Kraken wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:14 pm

Jaymann wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:54 pm

dbt1949 wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:53 pm My parents let me run wild in the mountains.
I wasn't around to bother them and I was having fun. Win win.
Then again my parents lucked out and were able to trust me.

I remember those days. We roamed the woods and the neighborhood with abandon and came home when we felt like it.

Free-range parenting didn't need a name when I was a kid. We had to go in for lunch, and then again when the streetlights came on. My parents didn't worry much about what happened in between as long as I was with my friends and in the neighborhood.

Pretty much the same for me except we didn't have street lights. It was "get home by dinner or you don't eat." We got really good at judging time without clock.


My fondest memories are just me and my dog traipsing around the woods. Investigating swamps, animal carcasses, old abandoned buildings, suspiciously new abandoned campsites...


Would love to let my kids do that but don't have 100 or so acres of secure woodlands.

Zarathud wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 am Back in the day you were monitored by stay-at-home mothers more than willing to report the kids for minor infractions and ostracize other parents for their children’s actions.

Big Mama is no longer Watching.

That's not only sexist, it's wrong. I don't remember any stay at home moms (other than my own) and we weren't in the house. We certainly roamed out of of the neighboorhoods.

With me it was big grandma because thats who raised me. And she was hell on wheels at times.

Your experience was not the norm for the 60s/70s/80s. My working neighborhood was full of moms and kids roaming the neighborhood under their supervision. Classic TV shows were more than just sexist mythology.

The stats bear me out, and not just in the US:

BBC Raising Children

I’m not saying it’s ideal or right. But the neighborhood gossip about kids did exist.

It's more that the country was more sexist back then. It was an enforced stereotype.

Zarathud wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:58 am Your experience was not the norm for the 60s/70s/80s. My working neighborhood was full of moms and kids roaming the neighborhood under their supervision. Classic TV shows were more than just sexist mythology.

The stats bear me out, and not just in the US:

BBC Raising Children

I’m not saying it’s ideal or right. But the neighborhood gossip about kids did exist.

Stating the reality of the time isn't sexist. I grew up in liberated hippie land and it was still the norm for moms to be at home.

Having a parent at home, be it mom or dad, makes a difference. The reality is that back in the day it was moms.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:11 pm

Zarathud wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:58 am Your experience was not the norm for the 60s/70s/80s. My working neighborhood was full of moms and kids roaming the neighborhood under their supervision. Classic TV shows were more than just sexist mythology.

The stats bear me out, and not just in the US:

BBC Raising Children

I’m not saying it’s ideal or right. But the neighborhood gossip about kids did exist.

Stating the reality of the time isn't sexist. I grew up in liberated hippie land and it was still the norm for moms to be at home.

Having a parent at home, be it mom or dad, makes a difference. The reality is that back in the day it was moms.

Yeah, I grew up in the country, and all the mom's worked that I knew. They all were second(and third) parents to me, and I was slave labor for them for the farms that they had as well. But it was common for mothers and some fathers to be at home. But like I said, I lived in the country where we all had at least 5+ acres of land and no real neighbors. So not as common as most others.

Did you have a neighborhood? Or maybe you were raised by the farm animals.