Canada 2015-25 and Beyond: New Hope or Phantom Menace?

[Max Peck]

Yeah, it technically doesn't make sense, because if the U.S didn't need anything, he wouldn't feel the need to take us over.

They claim that they don't need our manufactured products. They definitely want our natural resources, and why trade for something you can just take.

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with nationalist authoritarian regimes with isolationist tendencies is that they strongly desire economic self-sufficiency. They don't want to be dependant on anyone else for anything. That's why Nazi Germany, for example, needed lebensraum. They didn't just need empty land to build housing for all the Aryan babies they planned to breed -- they needed oil, minerals, iron, coal, agricultural land, etc, anything that would let them produce what they'd otherwise have to import from trade partners.

[IceBear]

It's about Trump's standard attack on NATO -- he bitches that nobody spends enough on defense (which is true to an extent -- we're "committed" to spending 2% of our GDP on defense, but the last I saw we were still only at about 1%). Where Trump is wrong is that he frames it as we owe that money to the USA somehow.

I didn't mean explain it to me.

I meant explain why drumpf complains about this to Icebear, but more importantly, what it takes to get off his shit list. i.e. bribes and public fellatio.

Fixing the thing he's complaining about just means he moves to another line of attack. He does not care one wit about defense spending.

Never mind, I just did it

I know that. It's just an excuse...given what he says about it being about illegals and fentanyl there's no way it's 25% on us if he's going to do the same 25% on Mexico...should not even be close to the same. I'm just saying that we should do it for ourselves so we can stop being a wannabe state like we currently are. Take care of our own defense and borders and trade within Canada and the rest of the world.

[IceBear]

Yeah, it technically doesn't make sense, because if the U.S didn't need anything, he wouldn't feel the need to take us over.

They claim that they don't need our manufactured products. They definitely want our natural resources, and why trade for something you can just take.

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with nationalist authoritarian regimes with isolationist tendencies is that they strongly desire economic self-sufficiency. They don't want to be dependant on anyone else for anything. That's why Nazi Germany, for example, needed lebensraum. They didn't just need empty land to build housing for all the Aryan babies they planned to breed -- they needed oil, minerals, iron, coal, agricultural land, etc, anything that would let them produce what they'd otherwise have to import from trade partners.

Well he says they don't need our oil or lumber. But given the US dollar vs Canadian, having us produce the natural resources for them is cheaper (until he puts on the tariffs). It's one of the reasons I still have a job...same people doing my work in the US are more expensive (well, that and we have better labour laws)

[Rumpy]

Still half convinced all the yelling about the theoretical invasion of Canada is a way to distract from all the actual horrific things happening right now as a result of half the things he signed on Monday night. Classic Trump - of course the Canada stuff generates eyeballs and the average person has opinions on Canada (apparently). But eliminating workplace protections? Silencing public health? Pardoning violent criminals? Preparing ICE for action? Don't pay attention to those things at all - think about the logistics of somehow invading Canada.

I don't mean to sound dismissive or harsh - if I was living in Canada right now I'd likely be horrified by what is starting to unfold here as the administration's plans are apparently being realized.

But I'm not entirely convinced invading Canada is more important right now than punishing brown people and keeping trans women out of bathrooms.

Yep, for sure, it's mainly noise in an attempt to throw us off for his bargaining. But it's also amplified by the fact that we're literally next door and a large part of the media we consume comes straight from the U.S. And because of this we've become more easily influenced. This is partly the reason for the content protections and mandates we have in place. What's that line from Pierre Trudeau about the elephant again? It's kind of like that for us right now.

Yeah, it technically doesn't make sense, because if the U.S didn't need anything, he wouldn't feel the need to take us over.

They claim that they don't need our manufactured products. They definitely want our natural resources, and why trade for something you can just take.

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with nationalist authoritarian regimes with isolationist tendencies is that they strongly desire economic self-sufficiency. They don't want to be dependant on anyone else for anything. That's why Nazi Germany, for example, needed lebensraum. They didn't just need empty land to build housing for all the Aryan babies they planned to breed -- they needed oil, minerals, iron, coal, agricultural land, etc, anything that would let them produce what they'd otherwise have to import from trade partners.

Well, there's that of course. I didn't immediately think of it that way. We need him to be distracted by a new shiny.

[Pyperkub]

Cory Doctorow has thoughts on how Canada should respond to the tariffs...

https://pluralistic.net/2025/01/15/beau ... bay-of-ham

Since Canada is now substantially reorganized as an open-pit mine for American manufacturers, cutting off American imports (via tariffs) would drive the prices of everyday goods sky-high, and would be political suicide.

But there's another way...

... But you know what Canada could make? A Canadian App Store. That's a store that Canadian software authors could use to sell Canadian apps to Canadian customers, charging, say, the standard payment processing fee of 5% rather than Apple's 30%. Canada could make app stores for the Android, Playstation and Xbox, too.

There's no reason that a Canadian app store would have to confine itself to Canadian software authors, either...

... Speaking of repair: Canadian companies could jailbreak every make and model of every US automobile, and make independent, constantly updated diagnostic tools that every mechanic in the world could buy for hundreds of dollars, rather than paying the five-figure ransom that car makers charge for their own underpowered, junk versions of these tools.

Jailbreaking cars doesn't stop with repair, either. Cars like the Tesla are basically giant rent-extraction machines. If you want to use all the "features" your Tesla ships with – like access to the full charge on your battery – you have to pay tens of thousands of dollars in subscription fees over the life of the car, and when you sell your car, all that "downloadable content" is clawed back. No one will pay extra to buy your used Tesla just because you spent thousands on manufacturer upgrades, because they're all downgraded when you sign over the pink slip.

But Canadian companies could make jailbreaking kits for Teslas that unlock all the features in the car for a single low price – and again, they could sell these to every Tesla owner in the world.

[Alefroth]

So he again said the US doesn't need anything from Canada and that we should become a state to wipe out the trade deficient...which, if nothing is needed from us wouldn't exist would it? Our government needs to increase defense spending so that can be taken off his complaint list

Just don't spend it at US defense contractors.

[Rumpy]

Cory Doctorow has thoughts on how Canada should respond to the tariffs...

https://pluralistic.net/2025/01/15/beau ... bay-of-ham

Interesting proposal, but I see a flaw. It would first need support, something which is difficult to accomplish amid our smaller population numbers. Not to mention the infrastructure and the deals that would have to be put in place for it to even happen. It's a similar reason why we don't really have great streaming platforms and associated apps. Most of what he describes sounds like it would be a nightmare to implement, maintain and support.

[LawBeefaroni]

Cory Doctorow has thoughts on how Canada should respond to the tariffs...

https://pluralistic.net/2025/01/15/beau ... bay-of-ham

Interesting proposal, but I see a flaw. It would first need support, something which is difficult to accomplish amid our smaller population numbers. Not to mention the infrastructure and the deals that would have to be put in place for it to even happen. It's a similar reason why we don't really have great streaming platforms and associated apps. Most of what he describes sounds like it would be a nightmare to implement, maintain and support.

It would probably also affect export laws. It would take no time for Tesla to convince regulators to ban Tesla exports to Canada. Or iPhones or whatever. Think customs sucks now?

[Pyperkub]

Cory Doctorow has thoughts on how Canada should respond to the tariffs...

https://pluralistic.net/2025/01/15/beau ... bay-of-ham

Interesting proposal, but I see a flaw. It would first need support, something which is difficult to accomplish amid our smaller population numbers. Not to mention the infrastructure and the deals that would have to be put in place for it to even happen. It's a similar reason why we don't really have great streaming platforms and associated apps. Most of what he describes sounds like it would be a nightmare to implement, maintain and support.

It would probably also affect export laws. It would take no time for Tesla to convince regulators to ban Tesla exports to Canada. Or iPhones or whatever. Think customs sucks now?

And yet, the software could still be there

[Rumpy]

Cory Doctorow has thoughts on how Canada should respond to the tariffs...

https://pluralistic.net/2025/01/15/beau ... bay-of-ham

Interesting proposal, but I see a flaw. It would first need support, something which is difficult to accomplish amid our smaller population numbers. Not to mention the infrastructure and the deals that would have to be put in place for it to even happen. It's a similar reason why we don't really have great streaming platforms and associated apps. Most of what he describes sounds like it would be a nightmare to implement, maintain and support.

It would probably also affect export laws. It would take no time for Tesla to convince regulators to ban Tesla exports to Canada. Or iPhones or whatever. Think customs sucks now?

Yep, exactly. The affected companies could just as easily decide to stop exporting to us, which would be even worse than it is now, and we pay a lot more for technology as it is. Sometimes you have to work within the limits of what you have.

[IceBear]

I don't think customs suck. I just hate being alive at a point in time where the DECADES of Canadian politicians not diversifying our trade and our economy has put us in a position where I can see before 2028 we give up and join the US rather than be completely ruined - what that means for my pension and safety I have no idea - gone I assume.

[waitingtoconnect]

One of Canadas major problems is interprovincial trade barriers.

As a result it’s cheaper to trade with Us states than Canadian provinces in some cases.

You need to stop this now in my opinion.

[IceBear]

The politicians up here agree and are already working on doing so.

I think a few things up here are going to change. We don't have oil pipelines across the country because it was easier for us to hook into the US network by going south from our prairies and then north from the US into Ontario. There was some Energy Act in 1977 that set all that up to provide a North American energy grid and the idea that the US might make things difficult never entered anyone's mind.

So it looks like the current situation is going to spark the work on more internal pipelines. Hopefully it will cause us to build more manufacturing plants so we can build our own stuff rather than send it to you guys to turn into dishwashers and other appliances and then we buy back

Problem is, there's only 40 million of us so our market is too small for any such business to make much money.

Hmmm, 40 million of us and 300 million down there and Trump wonders why the US buys more things from Canada than Canada buys from the US

[waitingtoconnect]

The balance of trade may be one thing but it ignores the benefit to Us companies making those exports and then banking the dollars. Especially as many Us companies are the ones owning Canadian companies or resources etc.

It also ignores that Canada makes 50% more investment in the Us to the tune of 750 billion to Americans 500 billion investment in Canadian ventures. Given as you point out Canada’s much smaller population this also should be factored in.

[IceBear]

But keep in mind Trump is using the trade deficit and border security as excuses for the tariffs. People can show him evidence to the contrary and it won't matter...he and his base have latched on to the 51st State sound bite

[Max Peck]

In other news, Amazon is shutting down all it's operations in the province of Quebec in an effort to stamp out this whole unionized labor thing before it catches on.

Why a unionized warehouse in Quebec posed a threat to Amazon

Last May, about 230 workers at an Amazon warehouse in Laval, Que., successfully unionized — a historic first in Canada at the retail giant.

The CSN, the union that represents the workers in Laval, said workers were dissatisfied with what they described as a hectic work pace, low wages and inadequate health and safety measures.

Amazon has only one other unionized workforce in North America, in Staten Island, N.Y. It was certified in 2022 but still doesn't have a contract.

In Quebec, the province's stronger labour laws would have soon forced the two parties to negotiate a collective agreement or could have imposed arbitration on them if they didn't reach a deal, experts said.

"I think essentially what's happening here is that the clock was ticking down on a first collective agreement," said Adam King, an assistant professor in the labour studies program at the University of Manitoba.

"Amazon had tried to contest the certification of this bargaining unit in Quebec and lost."

A collective bargaining agreement could have led to the union expanding to other facilities in the province, King suggested.

That won't happen anymore, now that Amazon has announced it will shut all seven of its facilities in Quebec, lay off 1,700 permanent employees and outsource its work to third-party companies. The decision comes after a period of rapid expansion; the first facility in the province opened in July 2020.

[GreenGoo]

This is not the first time a corporation has pulled up stakes in Quebec over this issue.

Be individuals more easily exploited or be unemployed. That's a helluva bargaining position for a corporation to take.

Doesn't Quebec understand late stage capitalism??

[hepcat]

But keep in mind Trump is using the trade deficit and border security as excuses for the tariffs. People can show him evidence to the contrary and it won't matter...he and his base have latched on to the 51st State sound bite

They've latched onto it the same way a child latches onto an insult that gets a rise from people around him. Trump and his followers are basically 9 year olds who love to troll. He knows he can't annex Canada in any way, shape or form. But he likes pissing everyone off by hinting he would. So do his deplorables.

He's a shitty leader and a shitty human being. The world will be better off when he's left it. I hate to say that, but this is one instance where I honestly DO wish for someone's death. I will literally dance with joy the day I hear the news he's died. I'm not advocating that he BE killed. I'm just saying I will be glad when he's gone from this earth.

[waitingtoconnect]

There is Immense value to the relationship between Canada and the United States for both sides.

A real conservative (for example only) might propose closer trade ties or perhaps a EU style trading bloc with a view to a currency union. But this approach is insane.

Assuming even trump isn’t an idiot enough to attack Canada any economic war is going to hurt everyone. For no reason.

Fox news hosts insulting Canadians on air and saying things like; South Americans and Indians etc want to be American and the fact you don’t angers me and insults me is just bonkers. Bonkers … can you imagine if Biden and Rachel Maddow on msnbc pulled anything like this?

[IceBear]

Nevermind the fact that South Americans and Mexicans are actually Americans whereas us white folk in Canada and the US are immigrants who stole the land from the rightful owners.

[GreenGoo]

They've latched onto it the same way a child latches onto an insult that gets a rise from people around him.

This. He's literally (trying to) bullying an entire country. A strong, long standing ally of the US, because he is now president and he can. That's it. Thanks, American voters.

None of this is new behaviour or should come as a surprise to anyone. Trying to logic your way through his comments doesn't work, because they aren't sincere.

[hepcat]

Who wants to go in on a 1200 dollar McDonald's or KFC gift card for the president with me?

[IceBear]

They've latched onto it the same way a child latches onto an insult that gets a rise from people around him.

This. He's literally (trying to) bullying an entire country. A strong, long standing ally of the US, because he is now president and he can. That's it. Thanks, American voters.

None of this is new behaviour or should come as a surprise to anyone. Trying to logic your way through his comments doesn't work, because they aren't sincere.

I guess that's my problem. As an engineer I try to apply logic to everything (which my wife reminds me, isn't good) and my brain is having a hard time trying to reconcile the illogical nature of it all.

[GreenGoo]

Who wants to go in on a 1200 dollar McDonald's or KFC gift card for the president with me?

I would, but that would still leave most of the GOP. It is likely to take the target off Canada's back though, since it appears to be a drumpf only thing. I'm in!

[GreenGoo]

I guess that's my problem. As an engineer I try to apply logic to everything (which my wife reminds me, isn't good) and my brain is having a hard time trying to reconcile the illogical nature of it all.

You need to focus on the nature of drumpf and his behavioural history. Logic still works when analyzing him, but not on his words. His words are meaningless, although they do give clues as to his true purpose/nature.

This could be as simple as Melanie thinking Trudeau is good looking. No, I'm not kidding. He's all Id, no Ego (I think that's how that works?).

More likely, Trudeau said something negative at some point.

Obama made fun of him at a white house event, so when drumpf became president the first time he made it a mission to dismantle anything that Obama accomplished. He's that petty and small. He's a broken human being. For real.

This time he has handlers. They are doing the real damage behind the scenes while drumpf is free to threaten and cajole all he wants. They gave him free rein, like giving a toddler a ball.

[hepcat]

They've latched onto it the same way a child latches onto an insult that gets a rise from people around him.

This. He's literally (trying to) bullying an entire country. A strong, long standing ally of the US, because he is now president and he can. That's it. Thanks, American voters.

None of this is new behaviour or should come as a surprise to anyone. Trying to logic your way through his comments doesn't work, because they aren't sincere.

I guess that's my problem. As an engineer I try to apply logic to everything (which my wife reminds me, isn't good) and my brain is having a hard time trying to reconcile the illogical nature of it all.

You're dealing with a child. Simply apply the same logic you would to Trump that you'd apply to the 9 year old who tells you that he has an imaginary friend named Elon that tells him what to do and wants everyone to lean towards the right really har....

...oh shit.

[Alefroth]

Who wants to go in on a 1200 dollar McDonald's or KFC gift card for the president with me?

I often wonder if we'd be in a worse place now if it was just another inch to the left.

[Rumpy]

The balance of trade may be one thing but it ignores the benefit to Us companies making those exports and then banking the dollars. Especially as many Us companies are the ones owning Canadian companies or resources etc.

It also ignores that Canada makes 50% more investment in the Us to the tune of 750 billion to Americans 500 billion investment in Canadian ventures. Given as you point out Canada’s much smaller population this also should be factored in.

Exactly. I've always felt that Americans end up getting the better end of the deal.

I've watched a video recently that made a decent point: If were were to stop exports to the U.S on particular products, like say oil, then that isn't exactly a net gain for Canada. If the same volume is to be made, then it technically doesn't have anywhere to go as we're not selling it and effectively losing money.

But keep in mind Trump is using the trade deficit and border security as excuses for the tariffs. People can show him evidence to the contrary and it won't matter...he and his base have latched on to the 51st State sound bite

They've latched onto it the same way a child latches onto an insult that gets a rise from people around him. Trump and his followers are basically 9 year olds who love to troll. He knows he can't annex Canada in any way, shape or form. But he likes pissing everyone off by hinting he would. So do his deplorables.

He's a shitty leader and a shitty human being. The world will be better off when he's left it. I hate to say that, but this is one instance where I honestly DO wish for someone's death. I will literally dance with joy the day I hear the news he's died. I'm not advocating that he BE killed. I'm just saying I will be glad when he's gone from this earth.

It's honestly become quite an embarrassment how latched on to the idea he is. Once or twice, fine, but he's been repeating it for weeks now like a broken record, good grief. The guy has a one-track mind. Get over it, Donald!

He honestly sounds like one of those dolls with a voice box where you pull the string to get different phrases: "Canada as 51st State, wouldn't it be great!", "We're renaming the Gulf of Mexico and make it greater!", "Panama Canal? Yes, we want that too!", "Greenland, so so big and green. We need it!"

[GreenGoo]

It's honestly become quite an embarrassment how latched on to the idea he is. Once or twice, fine, but he's been repeating it for weeks now like a broken record, good grief. The guy has a one-track mind. Get over it, Donald!

We've been over this. If the media would stop reporting it every second article, and Canadians would stop panicking and verbalizing that anxiety, he wouldn't be doing it half as often.

He says it because it is working. We control whether it works or not. The media makes money talking about it. I don't know what Canadians get out of it except ulcers.

[Rumpy]

It's honestly become quite an embarrassment how latched on to the idea he is. Once or twice, fine, but he's been repeating it for weeks now like a broken record, good grief. The guy has a one-track mind. Get over it, Donald!

We've been over this. If the media would stop reporting it every second article, and Canadians would stop panicking and verbalizing that anxiety, he wouldn't be doing it half as often.

He says it because it is working. We control whether it works or not. The media makes money talking about it. I don't know what Canadians get out of it except ulcers.

I'm not panicking. I'm just voicing out frustration via observation. Is that fair? FFS, Dude. Relax. I'm not the media.

[Max Peck]

Unless Trump is lurking on the forum, there is no chance that giving people some space here to vent is going to somehow energize him.

[Rumpy]

Yeah, slim chance, that. We're not even a high-profile forum. Plus I doubt very much that he's a gamer

I don't think he'd play something like Horizon Zero Dawn. Too reflective of what's happening

[Rumpy]

To be fair, they've been talking more about the tariffs in recent days and the work that's being done behind the scenes for the retaliatory tariffs.

And also on the news recently is talk of a pact between mayors of border towns on both sides to make sure trade doesn't get disrupted.

Holman, you post disappeared as I was replying to it. I hope that answers your question.

[Holman]

Holman, you post disappeared as I was replying to it. I hope that answers your question.

Yeah, sorry. I had posted something to the effect of "Is Canadian media covering this constantly?"

I deleted because I realized I wasn't sure whether the topic "this" was still annexation or had settled on tariffs instead.

[Rumpy]

There's lots of crosstalk between the two, but I wouldn't worry so much. It was a good question. The tariffs are the dominant talk in the media at the moment.

[IceBear]

Yeah, the tariffs are all the media up here are giving any real weight to. Occasionally, they will mention that he said the 51st State thing again, but more as a lead-in to the tariffs. I'm letting my personal negative outlook personality take the tariffs as a means to make us the 51st State. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but the orange dude did say he was going to use economic warfare on us to make it happen

[Kraken]

As previously pointed out, making Canada a single state would be like adding another California to the US -- two more liberal senators and a whole lot of representatives. The only way that could ever happen is to split Canada into several heavily gerrymandered states to ensure that liberals aren't dominant anywhere...or to annex at least one other, new red state at the same time. It's just distraction and dick-swinging.

Tariffs, OTOH, are trump's favorite thing to throw around. I expect those to happen in some way, although IDK what he's trying to extort in return. Bribes, maybe. Everything is transactional and the world is a zero-sum place. We win when someone else loses.

[Blackhawk]

We do not need Canada. One of our problems is that we're already too big.

[IceBear]

But you guys are rational

[gbasden]

We do not need Canada. One of our problems is that we're already too big.

We absolutely need Canada. We need Canada to be willing to let the West coast and New England join them as provinces so we can flee crazy town.