Octopus Overlords

All I can say is: I'm glad I'm neither dating nor planning to date.

No kidding. This has made me think back to various encounters and wonder if there were cues I was not getting. I sure as hell hope not. I'd like to think that the encounter with me was as dreamy as I know it was.

Moliere wrote:We need apologies from anyone that ever covered the song "Baby It's Cold Outside"

Spoiler:

I really can't stay (Baby it's cold outside)
I gotta go away (Baby it's cold outside)
This evening has been (Been hoping that you'd dropped in)
So very nice (I'll hold your hands they're just like ice)
My mother will start to worry (Beautiful what's your hurry?)
My father will be pacing the floor (Listen to the fireplace roar)
So really I'd better scurry (Beautiful please don't hurry)
Well maybe just a half a drink more (I'll put some records on while I pour)
The neighbors might think (Baby it's bad out there)
Say what's in this drink? (No cabs to be had out there)
I wish I knew how (Your eyes are like starlight now)
To break this spell (I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell) (Why thank you)
I ought to say no, no, no sir (Mind if move in closer?)
At least I'm gonna say that I tried (What's the sense of hurtin' my pride?)
I really can't stay (Baby don't hold out)
Baby it's cold outside
Ah, you're very pushy you know?
I like to think of it as opportunistic
I simply must go (Baby it's cold outside)
The answer is no (But baby it's cold outside)
The welcome has been (How lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (Look out the window at that storm)
My sister will be suspicious (Gosh your lips look delicious!)
My brother will be there at the door (Waves upon a tropical shore)
My maiden aunt's mind is vicious (Gosh your lips are delicious!)
Well maybe just a cigarette more (Never such a blizzard before) (And I don't even smoke)
I've got to get home (Baby you'll freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat? (It's up to your knees out there!)
You've really been grand, (I feel when I touch your hand)
But don't you see? (How can you do this thing to me?)
There's bound to be talk tomorrow (Think of my life long sorrow!)
At least there will be plenty implied (If you caught pneumonia and died!)
I really can't stay (Get over that old out)
Baby it's cold
Baby it's cold outside
Okay fine, just another drink then
That took a lot of convincing!

"Say what's in this drink?" said the 54 women to Cosby.

I’ve been saying this for years, long before the #MeToo movement.

McNutt wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:18 pm No kidding. This has made me think back to various encounters and wonder if there were cues I was not getting. I sure as hell hope not. I'd like to think that the encounter with me was as dreamy as I know it was.

We all now live forever in fear of needing to say "I remember it differently"

How long can it be until they make robots that say no.

Jaymann wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:25 pm How long can it be until they make robots that say no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeecRrhnCZk

The Police, the ultimate source in relationship advice for men.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:20 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:59 pm

Historic context matters in this case. Not that it's going to matter in the larger discussion of it, but it's worth looking at.

While I personally wouldn't take it as far as your linked article does, that's exactly how I've always taken it too. There are still cultural barriers to women simply deciding that sex is something they want and it's ok to do it and there will be no repercussion, societally.

Reading the words, they are very rapey. Hearing them sung, it's clear the woman wants to stay but also wants to go (mostly because other people will think badly of her). Convincing a woman to stay the night is still something that happens on a regular basis. It's not, and has never been as easy (in general) as "do you want to stay and have sex?" "sure, that sounds lovely". Of course there are exceptions, and maybe a LOT of exceptions, it's still not the norm.

There is still a cultural bias for men to chase and women to "get caught". As Hep said, "playing coy" cannot still be a thing in 2017, yet it absolutely is. The difference, is whether a woman can make clear whether they are coy or adamant. And the man needs to be able to comprehend the difference between coy and outright refusal.

I don't think it's that tough to figure out, but I can see how it might give some people (maybe a lot of people?) difficulty.

I think a soft approach is best because it makes a man's position clear while allowing a woman to feel safe enough to tell the man no in no uncertain terms. But then I've never been into one night stands or aggressive pursuit, both of which make it more likely for miscommunication to occur. If you haven't spent the time to get to know someone, at least a little under the surface, then how can you be confident you understand what she is communicating?

Going forward, it's gonna be especially rough for the one night standers and hookup artists, but then I don't really care about them or what happens to them, so I'm ok with that. You don't need to have a deep relationship with someone to have sex with them, but I think you should at least have a relationship with them, even if it's a limited one to start.

Dang, week after my post on flirting being endangered, Aziz Ansari situation happens. It goes back to pendulum swining, you give a finger, they take an arm. GreenGoo made an interesting multiple points, so i wanted to cover them.
Woman in dating situation often times will push / pull to see if you are "dating" material, it is one of the selection methods. She will push you away and see if you come back, it is a qualifying technique and if you dont pull back, she might disqualify you. Aka if you go on few dates, and it still unclear if she wants you (to her) since selection is in large part emotional, she will want to see if she can remove you from mating pool. Hence, thats why pushing is normal mating behaviour for many animals including humans, infact in many cases if guys doesn't goes back in this might disqualify him to her because it implies he doesnt worth her, so she moves in to next guy. Hence, they guy has to pull back in and give another try, and she has to decide if he is worth her time now. Both men and women have their own mating tactics that has been done for many many many thousands of years.

Going forward it will have negligible effect on one night stands and pick up people (either one of those know it is a standard mating behavior) and if you are not a celebirty there is no upside for anyone. What it will be especially rough on is average guy, who will be terrified to do anything, say anything or make a move until the girl throw herself at him. Which women not fond of doing any way. Infact some people in this thread already indicated that. Here is a thing, woman expects some emotion in her dating, she wants to feel what you are about, she wants to test you and see if you worth her time, and if you get scared and just leave after she playfully pushes you away, she will not want to be with that guy.
Please keep in mind that psychology of dating is different for men and women, here predominantly guys point of view, dont forget that women have a main say in dating. She decided if she wants to be with a guy or not , and she needs to qualify bunch of guys before she gets to right one (And she doesnt know who it is), and she has a big tool box of ways to do it. This might take few days, few weeks or few month. Till one guy just jumps over all she threw at him and emerges as the victor of her attention.

Great info. I do have one question though. What hue and brightness should my buttocks be if I'm trying to attract the best mate?

hepcat wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:52 am Great info. I do have one question though. What hue and brightness should my buttocks be if I'm trying to attract the best mate?

I'm impressed you even were able to glean that question out of what Matrix wrote.

Paingod wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:20 pm

McNutt wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:18 pm No kidding. This has made me think back to various encounters and wonder if there were cues I was not getting. I sure as hell hope not. I'd like to think that the encounter with me was as dreamy as I know it was.

We all now live forever in fear of needing to say "I remember it differently"

Not all of us.

hepcat wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:52 am Great info. I do have one question though. What hue and brightness should my buttocks be if I'm trying to attract the best mate?

I keep reading these posts by Matrix and holding out hope that maybe he’s posting them tongue-in-cheek.

Otherwise, his Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom view of the dating world is an incredibly depressing view into the mind state of men that DO NOT get that we’ve evolved as a species. Or, at least, that we ought to aim to be evolved.

hepcat wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:52 am Great info. I do have one question though. What hue and brightness should my buttocks be if I'm trying to attract the best mate?

Fuchisa man, always Fuchisa. you want it to have that freshly spanked look.

Kurth wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:45 am

hepcat wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:52 am Great info. I do have one question though. What hue and brightness should my buttocks be if I'm trying to attract the best mate?

I keep reading these posts by Matrix and holding out hope that maybe he’s posting them tongue-in-cheek.

Otherwise, his Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom view of the dating world is an incredibly depressing view into the mind state of men that DO NOT get that we’ve evolved as a species. Or, at least, that we ought to aim to be evolved.

Matrix would probably fit in right well over at Return of Kings.

Kurth wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:45 amOtherwise, his Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom view of the dating world is an incredibly depressing view into the mind state of men that DO NOT get that we’ve evolved as a species. Or, at least, that we ought to aim to be evolved.

At the risk of dating a bench, as evolved as we are there are likely still quite a few evolutionary holdovers that confuse the issue - or work as intended (depends on who you ask). Things like how your potential partner smells or his saliva "tastes" (if you're a woman) might make the difference between feeling attracted or not. Clues provided in both give the woman's body an idea as to their level of genetic "match". Nothing you're consciously thinking about in any capacity, but it could confuse signals - the body is attracted but your higher-level brain is saying nope.

Again, I'm not defending anything in any capacity, only interjecting. To quote Steve Vai, "we may be human, but we're still animals".

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:01 pm

Kurth wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:45 amOtherwise, his Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom view of the dating world is an incredibly depressing view into the mind state of men that DO NOT get that we’ve evolved as a species. Or, at least, that we ought to aim to be evolved.

At the risk of dating a bench, as evolved as we are there are likely still quite a few evolutionary holdovers that confuse the issue - or work as intended (depends on who you ask). Things like how your potential partner smells or his saliva "tastes" (if you're a woman) might make the difference between feeling attracted or not. Clues provided in both give the woman's body an idea as to their level of genetic "match". Nothing you're consciously thinking about in any capacity, but it could confuse signals - the body is attracted but your higher-level brain is saying nope.

Again, I'm not defending anything in any capacity, only interjecting. To quote Steve Vai, "we may be human, but we're still animals".

I think I may regret asking, but what do you mean by “genetic match”?

Zarathud wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:55 pm My daughters immediately picked up on the creepy parts of "Baby It's Cold Outside" and my wife explained to them that at one time a young woman couldn't stay the night away from home without an excuse like bad weather.

Women have different pressures and fears than men. I have only felt in serious danger 2-3 times in my life walking down the street. My wife is extremely tough but has not had the same experience.

We don't have to get rid of the song as long as Lady Gaga takes the "male" role, and Joseph Gordon-Levitt takes the "female" role.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtoW4aV-CIc

Kurth wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:05 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:01 pm

Kurth wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:45 amOtherwise, his Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom view of the dating world is an incredibly depressing view into the mind state of men that DO NOT get that we’ve evolved as a species. Or, at least, that we ought to aim to be evolved.

At the risk of dating a bench, as evolved as we are there are likely still quite a few evolutionary holdovers that confuse the issue - or work as intended (depends on who you ask). Things like how your potential partner smells or his saliva "tastes" (if you're a woman) might make the difference between feeling attracted or not. Clues provided in both give the woman's body an idea as to their level of genetic "match". Nothing you're consciously thinking about in any capacity, but it could confuse signals - the body is attracted but your higher-level brain is saying nope.

Again, I'm not defending anything in any capacity, only interjecting. To quote Steve Vai, "we may be human, but we're still animals".

I think I may regret asking, but what do you mean by “genetic match”?

As I read your post, I thought you were going to say, "I think I may regret asking, but what do you mean by "dating a bench"?" Oh, well.

There are reproductive theories targeted around immune system function. Not crackpot tinfoil hat stuff, but suggestions that our bodies know (through those smell or saliva cues) whether or not having a child with someone would likely result in an offspring that has a "better" immune system because the other person's contributions to the genetic makeup of that child compliment your own. The immune system is essentially a library, so at a fundamental level some have argued that as part of sexual selection, organisms have ways to detect what a potential mate has to offer.

I'm trying to make this as simplistic a possible (to minimize the derail) and probably failing. There was a famous study published a few years ago about how birth control pills potentially impact attraction. I did some quick searching and couldn't find a non-technical one on saliva, but in 2009, wired did a little bit on it. Linked in that article is one on how women can "smell" genetic clues in men.

Again, not an excuse for anything - just a way to possible explain mixed signals.

This is so hot.

McNutt wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:25 pm This is so hot.

Hey, I refrained from including the parasite evaluation out of respect.

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:21 pm There are reproductive theories targeted around immune system function. Not crackpot tinfoil hat stuff, but suggestions that our bodies know (through those smell or saliva cues) whether or not having a child with someone would likely result in an offspring that has a "better" immune system because the other person's contributions to the genetic makeup of that child compliment your own. The immune system is essentially a library, so at a fundamental level some have argued that as part of sexual selection, organisms have ways to detect what a potential mate has to offer.

I'm trying to make this as simplistic a possible (to minimize the derail) and probably failing. There was a famous study published a few years ago about how birth control pills potentially impact attraction. I did some quick searching and couldn't find a non-technical one on saliva, but in 2009, wired did a little bit on it. Linked in that article is one on how women can "smell" genetic clues in men.

Again, not an excuse for anything - just a way to possible explain mixed signals.

So I need to take more vitamins to get some? Done and Done! Are adult Gummy vitamins manly enough or should I go for some of the horse pill sized ones?

LordMortis wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:01 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:39 am Lol.

If this means the Em's and matrices of the world are too scared to approach women, I'm all for it.

Not understanding what is reasonable versus unreasonable when approaching women is what got us here in the first place.

Hearing them whine is music to my ears.

I've never understood it and been flat out told "Wow. You have no game at all, do you?" Being on the other end of the spectrum and have never wanted to be alpha, flirting only really ever comes with people I know well enough to make it meaningless.

It's context dependent. If you're at a bar known for hookups, you can be more aggressive. If you're outside of that area you have to adjust accordingly.

And most importantly, you should take no the first time she says it. If she wants to play the no means ask again game you should run away from her as fast as possible.

What I'm getting out of this current discussion is that coloring and shining my buttocks is less a factor in getting hitched than Matrix would have me believe. But my liberal use of Drakkar Noir may be masking my natural musk.

Genetic compatibility has been studied more in non-human organisms than in humans. Generally, you will often find mating incompatibilities between specific genotypes, for a variety of reasons. But generally incompatibility leads to low fertility and/or offspring fitness. The incompatibilities can be at the immune system level as Smoove described, at the sperm/egg recognition level, or at likely many other levels not completely understood. In humans, for example, when you have a case of a couple who continually have miscarriages, it has been suggested that may be due to some underlying genetic incompatibility.

ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:27 am

Paingod wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:20 pm

McNutt wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:18 pm No kidding. This has made me think back to various encounters and wonder if there were cues I was not getting. I sure as hell hope not. I'd like to think that the encounter with me was as dreamy as I know it was.

We all now live forever in fear of needing to say "I remember it differently"

Not all of us.

Even my wife would tell me I remember some things differently in this regard.

Paingod wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:18 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:27 am

Paingod wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:20 pm

McNutt wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:18 pm No kidding. This has made me think back to various encounters and wonder if there were cues I was not getting. I sure as hell hope not. I'd like to think that the encounter with me was as dreamy as I know it was.

We all now live forever in fear of needing to say "I remember it differently"

Not all of us.

Even my wife would tell me I remember some things differently in this regard.

I'm pretty sure I've never met your wife, so I think I'm in the clear there.

Reemul wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:41 pm This was posted by someone on QT3 and sums up how I feel about this issue really.

Reading that Aziz Ansari account…it really doesn’t seem to fit within the confines of #metoo at all.

Agree

There are numerous articles today explaining why Ansari doesn't get a free pass.

I couldn't follow any of them.

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:35 pm There are numerous articles today explaining why Ansari doesn't get a free pass.

I couldn't follow any of them.

Here's Ashley Banfield reading her own "open letter" to Ansari's accuser on HLN, which puts it in no uncertain terms.

I found this piece insightful: http://www.katykatikate.com/2018/01/not ... ad_15.html.

Grace's story is common. It's so common that I don't have to imagine it because I remember it. I laugh about it without smiling. It's the story of so much bad sex. And when I hear that bad sex described as a sexual assault, it forces me to reexamine my own history. And see, I just started feeling strong again.

I believe her; I don't agree with her.

I'm telling you this not because I think she is wrong, but because I think I am.

Apologies is this has been linked already; there's a lot in this thread and not enough time not for me to read it all.

Anonymous Bosch wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:11 pm

Here's Ashley Banfield reading her own "open letter" to Ansari's accuser on HLN, which puts it in no uncertain terms.

That's the opposite of the articles to which I referred.

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:27 pm

Anonymous Bosch wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:11 pm

Here's Ashley Banfield reading her own "open letter" to Ansari's accuser on HLN, which puts it in no uncertain terms.

That's the opposite of the articles to which I referred.

Yeah, I misread your post. Banfield's commentary definitely seems more coherent compared to the positions you described.

AWS260 wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:17 pm I found this piece insightful: http://www.katykatikate.com/2018/01/not ... ad_15.html.

Grace's story is common. It's so common that I don't have to imagine it because I remember it. I laugh about it without smiling. It's the story of so much bad sex. And when I hear that bad sex described as a sexual assault, it forces me to reexamine my own history. And see, I just started feeling strong again.

I believe her; I don't agree with her.

I'm telling you this not because I think she is wrong, but because I think I am.

Apologies is this has been linked already; there's a lot in this thread and not enough time not for me to read it all.

I tried to read that, I really did, but man the formatting and writing style are injurious. I understand her point, I think. Maybe not.

I guess I have one opinion on this and one probably not very PC comment/question.

Opinion..... I think this was Babe promoting Babe at the expense of a celebrity.

Comment/Question.....Is it normal now for people to spend an evening naked without having sex or expecting sex or believing sex is imminent? Why didn't she just get dressed and leave? She gives no indication she feared him?

Moat_Man wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:29 pm Matt Damon needs to shut his mouth. This isn't about you and what you think of things.

He heard me.

Matt Damon Apologizes for Sexual Harassment Remarks: I Should 'Close My Mouth For a While'

Anonymous Bosch wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:11 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:35 pm There are numerous articles today explaining why Ansari doesn't get a free pass.

I couldn't follow any of them.

Here's Ashley Banfield reading her own "open letter" to Ansari's accuser on HLN, which puts it in no uncertain terms.

Just watched that. Wow. Pretty powerful stuff. I agree with her perspective that these kinds of allegations “chisel away” at the type of truly awful behavior that’s definitely out there.

That said, I also finally read the babe article. Does anyone not belive the account that was given? Seems all too real. “Grace” isnlt trying to make herself look good here. She clearly made mistakes as well.

My take away is that I’d never want my daughter to go through a date like Grace went through with Ansari. Hopefully, based on her seemingly innate strong character and sense of self, she’d never put herself in the position Grace put herself in. But if she did, i’d hope to hell she didn’t find herself in that position with a guy like Ansari.

Does that mean Ansari deserves to have his career torpedoed by babe (a publication that typically excels in examples of journalistic excellence like What kind of fuckboy is he based on his taste in music)? I don’t know.

Certainly seems like exactly the sort of a~hole Ansari consistently goes off on in his show.

Bummer. All of this. I really liked Master of None, and I thought I liked Ansari.

Scuzz wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm Comment/Question.....Is it normal now for people to spend an evening naked without having sex or expecting sex or believing sex is imminent? Why didn't she just get dressed and leave? She gives no indication she feared him?

I think we all know that sex can't be presumed to go as expected.

But the standard now is that all consent is specific and explicit. Hanging out naked does not imply consent to have sex. Oral sex does not imply permission for penetrative sex. Vaginal does not imply permission for anal or vice-versa, etc.

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am

Scuzz wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm Comment/Question.....Is it normal now for people to spend an evening naked without having sex or expecting sex or believing sex is imminent? Why didn't she just get dressed and leave? She gives no indication she feared him?

I think we all know that sex can't be presumed to go as expected.

But the standard now is that all consent is specific and explicit. Hanging out naked does not imply consent to have sex. Oral sex does not imply permission for penetrative sex. Vaginal does not imply permission for anal or vice-versa, etc.

My hospital system has uniformed Registration employees at the front lobby who, among other things, have patients read and sign consent to treat forms. That would make date night much more expensive to hire one of those to sit in your kitchen.

Freyland wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:47 am

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am

Scuzz wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm Comment/Question.....Is it normal now for people to spend an evening naked without having sex or expecting sex or believing sex is imminent? Why didn't she just get dressed and leave? She gives no indication she feared him?

I think we all know that sex can't be presumed to go as expected.

But the standard now is that all consent is specific and explicit. Hanging out naked does not imply consent to have sex. Oral sex does not imply permission for penetrative sex. Vaginal does not imply permission for anal or vice-versa, etc.

My hospital system has uniformed Registration employees at the front lobby who, among other things, have patients read and sign consent to treat forms. That would make date night much more expensive to hire one of those to sit in your kitchen.

Inecluctably someone will create a consent to monkey business app for cell phones.

Jaymann wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:01 pm

Freyland wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:47 am

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am

Scuzz wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm Comment/Question.....Is it normal now for people to spend an evening naked without having sex or expecting sex or believing sex is imminent? Why didn't she just get dressed and leave? She gives no indication she feared him?

I think we all know that sex can't be presumed to go as expected.

But the standard now is that all consent is specific and explicit. Hanging out naked does not imply consent to have sex. Oral sex does not imply permission for penetrative sex. Vaginal does not imply permission for anal or vice-versa, etc.

My hospital system has uniformed Registration employees at the front lobby who, among other things, have patients read and sign consent to treat forms. That would make date night much more expensive to hire one of those to sit in your kitchen.

Inecluctably someone will create a consent to monkey business app for cell phones.

Available now on the Google Fore-Play store!

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am

Scuzz wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:58 pm Comment/Question.....Is it normal now for people to spend an evening naked without having sex or expecting sex or believing sex is imminent? Why didn't she just get dressed and leave? She gives no indication she feared him?

I think we all know that sex can't be presumed to go as expected.

But the standard now is that all consent is specific and explicit. Hanging out naked does not imply consent to have sex. Oral sex does not imply permission for penetrative sex. Vaginal does not imply permission for anal or vice-versa, etc.

This makes no sense to me. One action does not imply the next, but it is completely reasonable for one person to believe it has a good chance of leading to the next. If a girl is naked in bed with a man and has just performed oral sex on that man then his actions to initiate vaginal sex are not out of line. If the girl is uncomfortable with that step or unwilling to do so then she should make it very clear. I didn't see the girl's open letter (Youtube video), so I have no idea how strenuous her objection was. I haven't read anything that would label Ansari as anything worse than persistent. He committed no crime.