Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[stessier]

That is how they are selling it. That is not why they are doing it. They want to keep all your data for themselves.

I think it is probably the opposite. That is instead why Apple and Google weren't playing ball - they wanted all the data since that is their primary business. Ease of use is almost certainly why the manufacturers are doing it. Data acquisition is definitely in there -- that is a basic business strategy nowadays -- but they need to sell the cars and if you can't find charging while driving people won't buy them. They need to expand beyond a niche audience and that means making it easy to use.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. They have waiting lists for every electric car they offer - they aren't worried about people not buying them. With the possible exception of Tesla, automakers suck at making software. It's never going to be better than what someone can get through a third party. There is no reason to think GM is going to be any different or to trust that they won't charge for the updates needed to make it useful. They want more revenue streams and your data.

[malchior]

That is how they are selling it. That is not why they are doing it. They want to keep all your data for themselves.

I think it is probably the opposite. That is instead why Apple and Google weren't playing ball - they wanted all the data since that is their primary business. Ease of use is almost certainly why the manufacturers are doing it. Data acquisition is definitely in there -- that is a basic business strategy nowadays -- but they need to sell the cars and if you can't find charging while driving people won't buy them. They need to expand beyond a niche audience and that means making it easy to use.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. They have waiting lists for every electric car they offer - they aren't worried about people not buying them.

Eh. This still ignores how niche BEVs still are. There are waiting lists but still EVs are ~5% of auto sales. If there was capacity it might be what? 7-8%? The manufacturers are right now setting a long-term strategy at each where they aim to grab as much market share as they can in 5-10 year time frames. Recent polling indicates consumers have concerns about charging infrastructure, battery longevity, unknown costs, and range anxiety. Addressing all of that involves a huge complex re-tooling of their entire ecosystems. It is inconceivable to me that they are making decisions laser-focused on grabbing data. It just doesn't really pass a sniff test.

With the possible exception of Tesla, automakers suck at making software. It's never going to be better than what someone can get through a third party.

Never? Never is a long time.

There is no reason to think GM is going to be any different or to trust that they won't charge for the updates needed to make it useful. They want more revenue streams and your data.

That'd be a horrific bet to make though. Competitive forces are unknown in the long-term there. When they set these strategies they have to focus on core components understanding core competencies. The analysis there is iffy at best. They know they suck at software. They aren't likely going to make big bets on their ability to so without getting the basics in line first. Again it doesn't really pass a sniff test at this level. I could see that happening if some outside the box thinker took over a GM or Ford. That's not what has happened. They just aren't big risk takers in that vein. A more straight forward lower risk strategy is to focus on what they need to do to sell cars.

[Kurth]

I’m with Fireball: CarPlay is table stakes for any car purchasing decisions in my house these days. A while back, I had a case that involved auto infotainment systems, and I spent a lot — too much — time at auto shows canvassing all the offerings from the big players. They were all garbage.

If automakers are going to wade into infotainment OS again and not rely on CarPlay and/or AA, I sure hope they’ve improved their ability to offer an effective and elegant system, and it better be one that seamlessly interacts with a user’s phone. If I can’t look up directions somewhere while I’m getting ready to head out and then plug my car in and see those directions pop up on my screen . . .

[malchior]

If automakers are going to wade into infotainment OS again and not rely on CarPlay and/or AA, I sure hope they’ve improved their ability to offer an effective and elegant system, and it better be one that seamlessly interacts with a user’s phone. If I can’t look up directions somewhere while I’m getting ready to head out and then plug my car in and see those directions pop up on my screen . . .

FWIW your process is how I used to do things. Now I do it in the Tesla. It has a good voice-based and touchscreen interface to do this. The best part is it integrates charging stops automatically if needed and they've improved it quite a bit over the last year to the point it competes with Google maps IMO. We'll see if automakers get good at this but I think people discount it because they haven't experienced it done well.

[Kurth]

If automakers are going to wade into infotainment OS again and not rely on CarPlay and/or AA, I sure hope they’ve improved their ability to offer an effective and elegant system, and it better be one that seamlessly interacts with a user’s phone. If I can’t look up directions somewhere while I’m getting ready to head out and then plug my car in and see those directions pop up on my screen . . .

FWIW your process is how I used to do things. Now I do it in the Tesla. It has a good voice-based and touchscreen interface to do this. The best part is it integrates charging stops automatically if needed and they've improved it quite a bit over the last year to the point it competes with Google maps IMO. We'll see if automakers get good at this but I think people discount it because they haven't experienced it done well.

Past performance is not indicative of future results . . . But if I’m looking at the past performance of the auto makers in churning out high quality infotainment systems, I’m not optimistic.

It’s also not clear to me why charging stops are not already appearing in Apple Maps.

We have one EV, a Hyundai Kona, which my daughter drives, and she mostly just charges at home every night. But I always assumed that if she was out and about, she could ask Apple Maps to find her a charging station. Is that not a thing?

[Zaxxon]

We have one EV, a Hyundai Kona, which my daughter drives, and she mostly just charges at home every night. But I always assumed that if she was out and about, she could ask Apple Maps to find her a charging station. Is that not a thing?

There's 'to find her a charging station,' which is a bad experience, and there's 'enter my destination and the car automatically determines where and for how long to charge if needed--taking into account temps, wind, elevation chanages, battery state (of charge, and of temp), and speed,' which is a better experience. The latter is much more difficult to implement in a bolt-on system that is not deeply embedded in the car's brains.

If I can’t look up directions somewhere while I’m getting ready to head out and then plug my car in and see those directions pop up on my screen . . .

This is one that I also use sometimes. But I use the built-in system to do it (share the location from my phone to the Tesla app which seamlessly has the nav ready to go when I get in). Most of the time, though, the car just already has it ready from my calendar.

[malchior]

It’s also not clear to me why charging stops are not already appearing in Apple Maps.

We have one EV, a Hyundai Kona, which my daughter drives, and she mostly just charges at home every night. But I always assumed that if she was out and about, she could ask Apple Maps to find her a charging station. Is that not a thing?

As far as I know it can. The disconnect is not there. The difference is that there is no data flow between the car and Apple Maps vis a vis the state of charge, average usage (very different at highway vs. local), and most telemetry from the car. You can manually look for charging but it's not the same as say Tesla's implementation where I can say - 'Navigate to Disneyland' and it'd lay out a cross country route with charging along the way that'll adapt to real-time conditions as we drive (including modeling in wind and other factors).

Apple or Google are essentially driven from the phone and the screen in the car is like an external monitor with an amplifier. There is no current structure to enable data flowing back from car to the phone in either Apple's or Google's implementation that is useful for BEVs. Which is a problem for this use as much as it is a good thing for cybersecurity reasons. FWIW this all could be negotiations at scale and they'll come together to define a common data format, connectivity standard, and a necessary cybersecurity framework around it but I don't know if I'd hold my breath on that either.

[jztemple2]

How about that? There's a new Tesla Dealer near me on Merritt Island, Florida. There hasn't been any advertising on her television about it.

The last I remember Florida was trying to block Tesla from being able to sell cars in Florida because they didn't have dealers. Well I guess now they do have dealerships. It's a really nice looking place too.

[Kurth]

I get what you and Zaxxon are saying, but I think our use cases are significantly different. Our little Hyundai EV is just for driving around town. The longest trip it's ever been on has been from Portland to Salem, less than 50 miles. We're not taking it on any long road trips. For that use case, just having a simple, familiar interface to play music, listen to podcasts, get directions is what we're looking for, and it's hard for me to imagine something that would be better at that than CarPlay.

But I can see that if the EV is your main mode of transportation and used for long-distance trips regularly, there would be a need for an infotainment OS much more integrated with the unique features of the EV.

I'm hoping to run my car - a 2018 Chevy Traverse - into the ground and then upgrade to an EV. The plan is that the Traverse will be my last ICE vehicle. So when that happens, I'll probably also be looking for something with an infotainment system more along the lines of what you guys are talking about.

[Zaxxon]

I get what you and Zaxxon are saying, but I think our use cases are significantly different. Our little Hyundai EV is just for driving around town. The longest trip it's ever been on has been from Portland to Salem, less than 50 miles. We're not taking it on any long road trips. For that use case, just having a simple, familiar interface to play music, listen to podcasts, get directions is what we're looking for, and it's hard for me to imagine something that would be better at that than CarPlay.

I hear you, and I'm definitely not advocating against having CarPlay/Android Auto as an option. I don't personally see it as vital (and I have had it in our Volvo and am a heavy Android user). It's good, but it's not better (for me) than Tesla's built-in system. I wholeheartedly agree that it's worlds ahead of most OEM systems (our Leaf had a total POS, the Volvo non-Android Auto interface sucked massively, our Priuses were terrible in this regard, etc etc etc).

I also agree that these OEMs who are dropping CarPlay/AA better have some significant tricks up their sleeves, and I'm doubtful that they have as much as they think they do. I only really follow EV developments these days, but have seen more complaints about the VW systems, for example, than I could shake a stick at. It's a thorny issue for legacy OEMs, and I don't envy them--ceding all infotainment mindshare to Apple/Google is a short-term win and a long-term albatross, while trying to beat Apple/Google is an extremely tall hill to climb.

Tesla's got a great system. Rivian's doing well with theirs. I've heard good things about the Taycan. Beyond that? Trouble.

[telcta]

How about that? There's a new Tesla Dealer near me on Merritt Island, Florida. There hasn't been any advertising on her television about it.

The last I remember Florida was trying to block Tesla from being able to sell cars in Florida because they didn't have dealers. Well I guess now they do have dealerships. It's a really nice looking place too.

Nice. We’re still waiting to have dealerships in Connecticut. We have one service center and another one for the northern part of the state was squashed by a couple different towns. I had to drive to NY to pick up my car and needed a temporary NY sticker in order to drive it back.

[coopasonic]

How about that? There's a new Tesla Dealer near me on Merritt Island, Florida. There hasn't been any advertising on her television about it.

The last I remember Florida was trying to block Tesla from being able to sell cars in Florida because they didn't have dealers. Well I guess now they do have dealerships. It's a really nice looking place too.

Tesla doesn't advertise/market conventionally.

[Fireball]

A car with a custom or Google-based interface is one that I cannot safely drive, because it won't support the applications I use for podcasts, for news audio stories, or, likely, for music, so I'll be constantly looking at my phone. The entire point of CarPlay is that the interface for my podcast, etc, apps, are safely and easily usable without distraction.

GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

I know others have responded with similar comments but WTF? You really rate your media consumption experience higher than safe driving?

I hate messing with media in the car. Tapes, CDs, changing radio stations, changing podcasts, or whatever. I like having something playing but I don't want to do anything with it other than maybe volume. I still like the radio in my car because if I get a decent station it simply does its thing. Audiobooks generally keep going so I like them. I have a couple of multiple day long playlists that I use for driving.

No, but I'm not going to change all the apps I use because my car uses some garbage software instead of letting me use CarPlay. I will buy a different car. My phone is an infinitely more important device to my life than my car. I expect the latter to conform to the former, not the reverse.

[coopasonic]

Given the tax incentives, I decided to take a look at all the options again.

Why is the Mach-e premium so freakin slow? I know they wanted to differentiate the GT, but damn man.

The Kia EV6 is interesting but the lack of incentives makes it a hard sell.

Then I am left looking at a Performance 3 or a Long Range Y. The width of a Y makes it a bit challenging in the garage. The wheel and tire package on the performance is not super enticing to me either. Summer tires are good most of the time and we don't have the pothole issues the northern cities do so I really should be ok with it. I'd really prefer the Long Range if they would just open up orders for me... There is a used 2023 AWD on the site but the price is silly.

[gbasden]

Tesla's got a great system. Rivian's doing well with theirs. I've heard good things about the Taycan. Beyond that? Trouble.

With all of you saying this it must be true. I should look at it again. I will say it is hellishly unintuitive for those who haven't used it much. I drove my MIL's Model Y on a weekend getaway and found it really hard to do much of anything, including making the stupid windshield wipers not randomly start on a sunny day for no reason. Whereas I can plug my phone into any rental car I drive and I have the same interface with the same capabilities as long as it has Carplay/Android Auto.

[coopasonic]

Tesla's got a great system. Rivian's doing well with theirs. I've heard good things about the Taycan. Beyond that? Trouble.

With all of you saying this it must be true. I should look at it again. I will say it is hellishly unintuitive for those who haven't used it much. I drove my MIL's Model Y on a weekend getaway and found it really hard to do much of anything, including making the stupid windshield wipers not randomly start on a sunny day for no reason. Whereas I can plug my phone into any rental car I drive and I have the same interface with the same capabilities as long as it has Carplay/Android Auto.

I don't think Tesla's UI is particularly intuitive. I've had the car for almost 5 years and I still have issues trying to do certain things mostly because the UI changes meaningfully about once a year so you never really get used to it. Spotify and Nav are easy (and stable) enough and that is all I am generally interacting with while driving.

I drove my mother-in-law's Lexus (not sure on the year, maybe around 2015) yesterday and was lost and confused by the array of buttons with no clear meaning to most of them.

I've never had a car with carplay/android auto, my wife's Odyssey has it (CarPlay at least), but I've never used it.

[Madmarcus]

No, but I'm not going to change all the apps I use because my car uses some garbage software instead of letting me use CarPlay. I will buy a different car. My phone is an infinitely more important device to my life than my car. I expect the latter to conform to the former, not the reverse.

The weird this is that I agree with the statement that my phone is the more important device in my life but it leads me to the completely opposite conclusion. I am perfectly happy putting my phone in a holder and ignoring the car. Navigation and my music app work well together. If the car's speakers can be used via bluetooth I'm ok with it but if connecting is a hassle I'll simply use the phone's speaker and be on my way.

[LordMortis]

The weird this is that I agree with the statement that my phone is the more important device in my life but it leads me to the completely opposite conclusion. I am perfectly happy putting my phone in a holder and ignoring the car. Navigation and my music app work well together. If the car's speakers can be used via bluetooth I'm ok with it but if connecting is a hassle I'll simply use the phone's speaker and be on my way.

I was just talking to my dad about this when using my phone over the garbage that is his Synch in his Escape and how something needs (needed? It's about four years old) to give on the crap used for these systems by Ford and other OEMs. You can't force thousands of dollars of cost into these things have have them be garbage for which you are better off just propping up a phone to avoid using the onboard dashboard garbage. My phone will definitely be a consideration for the dashboard of my next car. If I prefer my phone to be divorced from the dashboard then I better not be paying for an expensive dashboard of features as part of the sales schtick.

[Isgrimnur]

Especially when there's real-time traffic updates, but the map data never does, and they want you to pay for new ones like it's a Garmin from 1995.

[Zaxxon]

Especially when there's real-time traffic updates, but the map data never does, and they want you to pay for new ones like it's a Garmin from 1995.

JFC; they're still doing that?

[LordMortis]

Especially when there's real-time traffic updates, but the map data never does, and they want you to pay for new ones like it's a Garmin from 1995.

JFC; they're still doing that?

Does Tesla not force a subscription to stay updated on its dashboard services? I was under the impression that Auto as a Subscription is part of the Tesla revenue model.

[Zaxxon]

Especially when there's real-time traffic updates, but the map data never does, and they want you to pay for new ones like it's a Garmin from 1995.

JFC; they're still doing that?

Does Tesla not force a subscription to stay updated on its dashboard services? I was under the impression that Auto as a Subscription is part of the Tesla revenue model.

No. They charge for 'premium data' which includes the in-built media streaming, satellite map views, and traffic visualizations, but without paying for that you still get map updates and traffic taken into account in nav.

[Isgrimnur]

Especially when there's real-time traffic updates, but the map data never does, and they want you to pay for new ones like it's a Garmin from 1995.

JFC; they're still doing that?

Dunno about EVs, but it is for my 2018 Ford Focus.

[disarm]

Especially when there's real-time traffic updates, but the map data never does, and they want you to pay for new ones like it's a Garmin from 1995.

JFC; they're still doing that?

Audi wants an absurd $400/year for their basic Audi Connect service in my 2018 Q7 that would give me regular map updates, real-time traffic, fuel prices, Google-based local search and a few other perks that are pretty much worthless thanks to a good implementation of Android Auto.

I tried the service during a free six month trial right when I bought the car and it is actually pretty well done, but expecting someone to pay $33/month for features that you can get for free through Android Auto or CarPlay is beyond ridiculous. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure this is the real motivation for GM...prohibit free services and require everyone to subscribe to a service for what should be basic, included-with-purchase functionality.

[Zaxxon]

Sheesh. I was mildly annoyed when I started paying $9.99/mo for Tesla's premium connectivity, but you make it sound eminently reasonable.

[coopasonic]

No. They charge for 'premium data' which includes the in-built media streaming, satellite map views, and traffic visualizations, but without paying for that you still get map updates and traffic taken into account in nav.

Tiny slice that is helping hold me back from buying. I get this for free now... I don't wanna pay more! Make free premium data transferable to my next car please.

[Zaxxon]

No. They charge for 'premium data' which includes the in-built media streaming, satellite map views, and traffic visualizations, but without paying for that you still get map updates and traffic taken into account in nav.

Tiny slice that is helping hold me back from buying. I get this for free now... I don't wanna pay more! Make free premium data transferable to my next car please.

The day they make anything transferable to the next car... Well, that'll be a day.

Although they did recently convert local driver profiles to cloud profiles tied to the Tesla account, so that's something, at least.

[LordMortis]

Especially when there's real-time traffic updates, but the map data never does, and they want you to pay for new ones like it's a Garmin from 1995.

JFC; they're still doing that?

Does Tesla not force a subscription to stay updated on its dashboard services? I was under the impression that Auto as a Subscription is part of the Tesla revenue model.

No. They charge for 'premium data' which includes the in-built media streaming, satellite map views, and traffic visualizations, but without paying for that you still get map updates and traffic taken into account in nav.

Weird. All I hear from CNBC is that Musk says on the calls is dropping prices is OK because the Tesla model is to generate revenue streams their cars as an on going environment or platform, like an IPhone. Buy the car one time, pay service for a lifetime.

[Zaxxon]

Especially when there's real-time traffic updates, but the map data never does, and they want you to pay for new ones like it's a Garmin from 1995.

JFC; they're still doing that?

Does Tesla not force a subscription to stay updated on its dashboard services? I was under the impression that Auto as a Subscription is part of the Tesla revenue model.

No. They charge for 'premium data' which includes the in-built media streaming, satellite map views, and traffic visualizations, but without paying for that you still get map updates and traffic taken into account in nav.

Weird. All I hear from CNBC is that Musk says on the calls is dropping prices is OK because the Tesla model is to generate revenue streams their cars as an on going environment or platform, like an IPhone. Buy the car one time, pay service for a lifetime.

That's certainly what's happening--$10 is the small piece, but there's also charging, the option to subscribe to EAP/FSD, unlockable other features such as rear seat heat on some base models, etc.

[Zaxxon]

Neat in-depth tour/interview of ChargePoint by Out of Spec. Haven't finished it yet, but even halfway through, it's very insightful. 1.25x speed recommended!

[stessier]

1.75x, Old Man.

[Zaxxon]

1.75x, Old Man.

Indeed. I default to 1.25 and bump to 1.5-2 depending on the speaker, but I don't maintain 1.75x for entire videos very often.

[stessier]

1.75x, Old Man.

Indeed. I default to 1.25 and bump to 1.5-2 depending on the speaker, but I don't maintain 1.75x for entire videos very often.

I slow it down if they are doing math and I actually care about how they get to the results - but that's pretty rare. I find it funny that if I ever meet these people in real life, it's going to be a real bummer to notice how slow they actually talk.

[Zaxxon]

1.75x, Old Man.

Indeed. I default to 1.25 and bump to 1.5-2 depending on the speaker, but I don't maintain 1.75x for entire videos very often.

I slow it down if they are doing math and I actually care about how they get to the results - but that's pretty rare. I find it funny that if I ever meet these people in real life, it's going to be a real bummer to notice how slow they actually talk.

True!

It also doesn't help that I typically have YT on in the background while doing other things. I can typically keep up at 1.25x in that case, but higher just goes in one ear and out the other.

[Isgrimnur]

Ford CEO Says It Will Keep Apple CarPlay, Android Auto: ‘We Lost That Battle 10 Years Ago’

[Fireball]

The interesting bit from that interview is that 70% of Ford's customers are Apple customers. Which makes sense. iPhones are about 55% of the US smartphone market, and new car buyers are probably a bit more likely to be iPhone users than the population as a whole.

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/ ... ey-carplay

[Zaxxon]

Not as useful today as it will be later this year, but for stessier...

[stessier]

Thanks!!

[Jeff V]

The interesting bit from that interview is that 70% of Ford's customers are Apple customers. Which makes sense. iPhones are about 55% of the US smartphone market, and new car buyers are probably a bit more likely to be iPhone users than the population as a whole.

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/ ... ey-carplay

Explains why I have never, and likely never will, buy a Ford. Maybe they would have more customers if they embraced the other side.

[gbasden]

The interesting bit from that interview is that 70% of Ford's customers are Apple customers. Which makes sense. iPhones are about 55% of the US smartphone market, and new car buyers are probably a bit more likely to be iPhone users than the population as a whole.

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2023/ ... ey-carplay

Explains why I have never, and likely never will, buy a Ford. Maybe they would have more customers if they embraced the other side.

The three Fords I've had work just fine with Android Auto as well.