Octopus Overlords

I think it can be argued that Democrats, or the chattering class that supports them, are employing religious/social/moral issues as a wedge.

But it would be absolutely ridiculous to assert that this represents anything other than them employing the same wedge tactics that Republicans have used for years and will, no doubt, use again this year.

I'll feel bad for Republicans being attacked on social issues the day Republicans stop attacking on social issues. Yeah, I'm sure no Republicans will talk about gays in the military or gay marriage this year.

Smoove_B wrote:Yes, Perry exactly the kind of person we need for President:

And on the issue of sex ed in Texas, Perry has taken governing positions that affect millions of children based on his own personal opinions, even when those opinions are overwhelmingly contradicted by the evidence.

...

Instead of providing fact-based information, the programs use fear and Jesus -- over-emphasizing the risks of sexually transmitted diseases leading to cervical cancer, radical hysterectomy and death, together with Christian morality.

One Texas public school district's sex ed handout is entitled "Things to Look for in a Mate:"

I. How they relate to God
A. Is Jesus their first love?
B. Trying to impress people or serve God?

Another public school district uses this:

Question: "What does the Bible say about sex before marriage/premarital sex?"

Answer: Along with all other kinds of sexual immorality, sex before marriage/premarital sex is repeatedly condemned in Scripture (Acts 15:20; Romans 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:13,18; 7:2; 10:8; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Jude 7).

I side with MSD on this. That piece is patently untrue. There's no age of consent for condom buying, and Texas school boards have LARGE amounts of leeway in what they teach. Especially when it's a sex ed handout, the school board might not even know it's going on.

noxiousdog wrote: I side with MSD on this. That piece is patently untrue. There's no age of consent for condom buying, and Texas school boards have LARGE amounts of leeway in what they teach. Especially when it's a sex ed handout, the school board might not even know it's going on.

The article suggests the age of consent applies when the school (colleges as well) receive State-level funding. Why don't we let Perry speak for himself then:

“Abstinence works,” said Governor Perry during a televised interview with Evan Smith of The Texas Tribune.

“But we have the third highest teen pregnancy rate among all states in the country,” Smith responded.

“It works,” insisted Perry.

“Can you give me a statistic suggesting it works?” asked Smith.

“I’m just going to tell you from my own personal life. Abstinence works,” said Perry, doggedly.

This is the kind of guy you want?

Smoove_B wrote: This is the kind of guy you want?

I already said I didn't like him. That doesn't justify calling Perry a Muslim...er making him responsible for outlawing condoms in Texas.

noxiousdog wrote: I already said I didn't like him. That doesn't justify calling Perry a Muslim...er making him responsible for outlawing condoms in Texas.

qui tacet consentire videtu

Smoove_B wrote:

noxiousdog wrote: I already said I didn't like him. That doesn't justify calling Perry a Muslim...er making him responsible for outlawing condoms in Texas.

qui tacet consentire videtu

Does your mother know you speak French?

msduncan wrote:

Smoove_B wrote:Yes, Perry exactly the kind of person we need for President:

And on the issue of sex ed in Texas, Perry has taken governing positions that affect millions of children based on his own personal opinions, even when those opinions are overwhelmingly contradicted by the evidence.

...

Instead of providing fact-based information, the programs use fear and Jesus -- over-emphasizing the risks of sexually transmitted diseases leading to cervical cancer, radical hysterectomy and death, together with Christian morality.

One Texas public school district's sex ed handout is entitled "Things to Look for in a Mate:"

I. How they relate to God
A. Is Jesus their first love?
B. Trying to impress people or serve God?

Another public school district uses this:

Question: "What does the Bible say about sex before marriage/premarital sex?"

Answer: Along with all other kinds of sexual immorality, sex before marriage/premarital sex is repeatedly condemned in Scripture (Acts 15:20; Romans 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:13,18; 7:2; 10:8; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Jude 7).

1. Source is Huffington Post? LOLz

2. Do you think Perry personally pens each school district's sex ed classes and questions? Do you think he's even aware of what is on some of those questionnaires? There are many nutty school programs/classes/curriculum/questionnaires in this country for a variety of topics. This anti-Republican religion witch hunt that the left is doing to each and every Republican conservative is fucking ridiculous.

I'm not exactly sure what we are supposed to focus on...any suggestions? The Republican candidates put their religious beliefs front and center and have, according to them, made decision based on their beliefs and not based on fact or reason. For those of us that are not fundamentalists this is a scary thought. Just like you and other Republicans get all riled up when Fox News says <insert Democrat politician name> is going to take away all your guns. You've ranted and raved about Democrats for ages...yet you still have your guns.

It's fairly easy to see that most of the Republican candidates are just chumming the water with religious fervor for votes but a few of them are truly off the deep end. Just like you don't want a Socialist government, there are some of us that don't want a Theocracy. I'd prefer we try and move back to being a Republic myself.

msduncan wrote:This anti-Republican religion witch hunt that the left is doing to each and every Republican conservative is fucking ridiculous.

You're such a victim.

The bottom line is that throughout the South you could go school district to school district and find plenty of prayer, God, and references to him in just about every subject. Furthermore, you would find it applauded by the majority of the public in these areas.

Hell, you can still go to plenty of high school football games around here and they say a prayer over the loudspeakers before the game -- in DIRECT conflict with court orders. They did it before an Alabama game once too a couple years ago (can't remember the reason they did it that particular time).

So what you guys are portraying as being fringe lunatic Presidential traits are found rampantly, and accepted almost universally, throughout the South and the heartland states.

geezer wrote:

msduncan wrote:This anti-Republican religion witch hunt that the left is doing to each and every Republican conservative is fucking ridiculous.

You're such a victim.

I'm not the victim here. Reason when it comes to Presidential candidates with the (R) next to their name is.

You guys know the south lost, right?

GreenGoo wrote:You guys know the south lost, right?

Three hundred thousand Yankees
Lie still in Southern dust
We got three hundred thousand
Before they conquered us.
They died of Southern fever
And Southern steel and shot.
I wish we'd killed three million
Instead of what we got.

I have to agree with MSD quite a bit here. It's not just the South - mainstream American by and large skews Christian. Even those who aren't Bible-thumping generally have no problem with "In God We Trust" on coins and references to God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

While there are certainly some aspects of fundamentalism are a little loony, some of the stuff I've seen targeted around here as being fanatical or extremist is stuff I heard every Sunday growing up in the South.

The Republican candidates put their religious beliefs front and center and have, according to them, made decision based on their beliefs and not based on fact or reason. For those of us that are not fundamentalists this is a scary thought. Just like you and other Republicans get all riled up when Fox News says <insert Democrat politician name> is going to take away all your guns. You've ranted and raved about Democrats for ages...yet you still have your guns.

Every President makes decisions based on their beliefs. I don't believe for a second any Republican candidate, as President, is going to ignore all facts and advisors and flip a coin. My boss is a devoted Christian. He openly prays about decisions he makes at work. But he's not ignoring budget numbers or facts when he makes those decisions. To think otherwise is just buying into the fear-mongering. If you have not grown up in a religious culture I can see how that idea would be frightening, but the reality is not as wacked out and supernatural as you have been led to believe.

The secret that you guys seem to be purposefully ignoring is that most of your Democrat candidates have the same Christian beliefs. Just because they don't use them as part of their campaign platform doesn't mean they magically don't exist.

Just like you and other Republicans get all riled up when Fox News says <insert Democrat politician name> is going to take away all your guns. You've ranted and raved about Democrats for ages...yet you still have your guns.

Just like you and other Democrats get all riled up when MoveOn says <insert Republican poliltician name> is going to make abortion illegal. You've ranted and raved about Republicans for ages....yet you still have your abortion.

YellowKing wrote:I have to agree with MSD quite a bit here. It's not just the South - mainstream American by and large skews Christian. Even those who aren't Bible-thumping generally have no problem with "In God We Trust" on coins and references to God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

While there are certainly some aspects of fundamentalism are a little loony, some of the stuff I've seen targeted around here as being fanatical or extremist is stuff I heard every Sunday growing up in the South.

The Republican candidates put their religious beliefs front and center and have, according to them, made decision based on their beliefs and not based on fact or reason. For those of us that are not fundamentalists this is a scary thought. Just like you and other Republicans get all riled up when Fox News says <insert Democrat politician name> is going to take away all your guns. You've ranted and raved about Democrats for ages...yet you still have your guns.

Every President makes decisions based on their beliefs. I don't believe for a second any Republican candidate, as President, is going to ignore all facts and advisors and flip a coin. My boss is a devoted Christian. He openly prays about decisions he makes at work. But he's not ignoring budget numbers or facts when he makes those decisions. To think otherwise is just buying into the fear-mongering. If you have not grown up in a religious culture I can see how that idea would be frightening, but the reality is not as wacked out and supernatural as you have been led to believe.

The secret that you guys seem to be purposefully ignoring is that most of your Democrat candidates have the same Christian beliefs. Just because they don't use them as part of their campaign platform doesn't mean they magically don't exist.

Just like you and other Republicans get all riled up when Fox News says <insert Democrat politician name> is going to take away all your guns. You've ranted and raved about Democrats for ages...yet you still have your guns.

Just like you and other Democrats get all riled up when MoveOn says <insert Republican poliltician name> is going to make abortion illegal. You've ranted and raved about Republicans for ages....yet you still have your abortion.

Not only do they have their abortion, but they have years of court precedent protecting that abortion that has survived decades of a right-leaning court with Reagan and Bush(s) appointees. Forget religious state -- the so-called religious zealots haven't even been able to touch abortion which could be argued against without religion involved in the mix at all.

One other comment. There is a saying that "God helps those who help themselves." I don't know any Christian (and I know a LOT of Christians and grew up for years in a church environment) that blindly trust the supernatural hand of God to govern every aspect of their lives. Their belief is something that comforts them, it is something they use for fellowship, it is a guideline for the way they live their lives and raise their kids. It is not some mystical Magic 8-Ball. Also, in the VAST majority of them, their belief is a personal one, not one that they try to impose on others. They are not going to hide it, but there isn't some weird ideological project to convert everyone to Jesus.

YellowKing wrote:I have to agree with MSD quite a bit here. It's not just the South - mainstream American by and large skews Christian. Even those who aren't Bible-thumping generally have no problem with "In God We Trust" on coins and references to God in the Pledge of Allegiance.

While there are certainly some aspects of fundamentalism are a little loony, some of the stuff I've seen targeted around here as being fanatical or extremist is stuff I heard every Sunday growing up in the South.

The Republican candidates put their religious beliefs front and center and have, according to them, made decision based on their beliefs and not based on fact or reason. For those of us that are not fundamentalists this is a scary thought. Just like you and other Republicans get all riled up when Fox News says <insert Democrat politician name> is going to take away all your guns. You've ranted and raved about Democrats for ages...yet you still have your guns.

Every President makes decisions based on their beliefs. I don't believe for a second any Republican candidate, as President, is going to ignore all facts and advisors and flip a coin. My boss is a devoted Christian. He openly prays about decisions he makes at work. But he's not ignoring budget numbers or facts when he makes those decisions. To think otherwise is just buying into the fear-mongering. If you have not grown up in a religious culture I can see how that idea would be frightening, but the reality is not as wacked out and supernatural as you have been led to believe.

The secret that you guys seem to be purposefully ignoring is that most of your Democrat candidates have the same Christian beliefs. Just because they don't use them as part of their campaign platform doesn't mean they magically don't exist.

Just like you and other Republicans get all riled up when Fox News says <insert Democrat politician name> is going to take away all your guns. You've ranted and raved about Democrats for ages...yet you still have your guns.

Just like you and other Democrats get all riled up when MoveOn says <insert Republican poliltician name> is going to make abortion illegal. You've ranted and raved about Republicans for ages....yet you still have your abortion.

Yet...I'm not for abortion. I'm for the rights that a woman should and does have when it comes to their own body. I would not ask for or want any woman I know to have an abortion but I also would not chain them to a bed and force them to have their child against their will. Do you actually think that abortion would stop if you make them illegal? Abortion did not just magically occur around the time of Roe vs Wade. Would you prefer woman, or maybe more importantly your daughters, go to some back alley basement and have the procedure done? Is this what you want?

Also...on the religion aspect. There is a personal and there is an in-your-face approach to religion. I guess I'd prefer someone who maybe believes in a higher power yet doesn't make it sound like he went to war because god told him to in a prayer. Fundamental religions are in your face...it's a bit scary for some. The south is a bit scary to those that don't live there. I was stationed in Georgia for two years. I had just been stationed in Germany previously. I felt more like I was in a foreign country in Georgia than when I was in Germany. We have a clash of cultures in this country and this seems to be a growing divide.

I'm not sure what abortion has to do with blindly and doggedly telling people that abstinence works when it clearly, and I mean crystal clearly, doesn't.

I don't care what your moral leanings are, pretending the problem won't happen (i.e. humans mating) because you tell them a whole lot of times not to, is head in the sand, society damaging nonsense, that seems to be rooted in religion. To withhold information and other options because of your personal beliefs is heinous.

The moment you have a president who lets their personal religious beliefs guide him in national policy is the day that America is done, and I'm not being even remotely facetious. If that happens in the next election while your country is so very close to serious economic hardship the likes of which these past few years will seem like the epitome of prosperity, you guys will vanish as a world power shortly afterward.

It's like Americans are completely blind to their downward spiral. Like this is a hiccup and everything will be rosy shortly no matter what.

It seems half the country isn't even willing to put a few extra bucks in the coffer to keep you from going belly up.

As an outsider looking in, it's bizarre. I mean, really self destructive bizarre.

The moment you have a president who lets their personal religious beliefs guide him in national policy is the day that America is done, and I'm not being even remotely facetious. If that happens in the next election while your country is so very close to serious economic hardship the likes of which these past few years will seem like the epitome of prosperity, you guys will vanish as a world power shortly afterward.

News flash! It's been happening for 200 years. We're still here.

Social justice, humility and "to walk closer with God" are President Obama's daily prayers, he told the National Prayer Breakfast this morning.

In a speech laced with Scripture, he initially covered familiar ground, noting how he came from a non-religious family that, nonetheless, showed him "the imperative of an ethical life and the necessity to act on your beliefs." Then through his work as a community organizer he says, he "came to know Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior."

Now, he says, "The presidency has a funny way of making a person feel the need to pray."

Oh rly?

GreenGoo wrote:I'm not sure what abortion has to do with blindly and doggedly telling people that abstinence works when it clearly, and I mean crystal clearly, doesn't.

I don't care what your moral leanings are, pretending the problem won't happen (i.e. humans mating) because you tell them a whole lot of times not to, is head in the sand, society damaging nonsense, that seems to be rooted in religion. To withhold information and other options because of your personal beliefs is heinous.

The moment you have a president who lets their personal religious beliefs guide him in national policy is the day that America is done, and I'm not being even remotely facetious. If that happens in the next election while your country is so very close to serious economic hardship the likes of which these past few years will seem like the epitome of prosperity, you guys will vanish as a world power shortly afterward.

It's like Americans are completely blind to their downward spiral. Like this is a hiccup and everything will be rosy shortly no matter what.

It seems half the country isn't even willing to put a few extra bucks in the coffer to keep you from going belly up.

As an outsider looking in, it's bizarre. I mean, really self destructive bizarre.

Newsflash: Presidents of the United States have been very religious since George Washington took the oath of office, and we are neither a religious State, nor are we "done".

This argument is nothing more than scare tactics designed to scare the public into thinking a candidate is some sort of radical. By the definition you are giving every single one of our presidents have been religious nuts that should have doomed the country. It's bullshit.

Heh...

you got it in stereo from me and YK. Not planned.

We have an annual National Prayer Breakfast that all Presidents attend for Pete's sake.

YellowKing wrote:We have an annual National Prayer Breakfast that all Presidents attend for Pete's sake.

Quite obviously because we are a religious state that is completely doomed.

Is this reading comprehension time or...?

I said, decide national policy based on their religious beliefs. Not that your presidents haven't been religious. Clearly. Geezus. We all know atheists might as well be the anti-christ in the US.

Point to a president who makes the majority of their policy initiatives directly from the bible (or any other holy reference) and we can talk.

Come talk to me when president decides that it is in the nation's best interest to teach ID beside evolution in public schools, as one example.

msduncan wrote:

YellowKing wrote:We have an annual National Prayer Breakfast that all Presidents attend for Pete's sake.

Quite obviously because we are a religious state that is completely doomed.

High FIVE!

Clearly we must keep Bachmann far away from the White House.

“I will tell you my favorite food of all time is celery. Honest to God my favorite food is celery. Straight up celery. I will personally consume the entire stalk of celery. At the Thanksgiving table I have the plate of celery in front of me. I know it’s strange. It’s my favorite food.”

That's just... inhuman.

It's like she read the Aliens guide to humans but missed something in the translation.

Point to a president who makes the majority of their policy initiatives directly from the bible (or any other holy reference) and we can talk.

Then we'll be waiting a long time, since it's not going to happen, despite the people here who seem to think so. I don't see anything about most of these candidates that is any more religious than Bush was, for example.

YellowKing wrote:

Point to a president who makes the majority of their policy initiatives directly from the bible (or any other holy reference) and we can talk.

Then we'll be waiting a long time, since it's not going to happen, despite the people here who seem to think so. I don't see anything about most of these candidates that is any more religious than Bush was, for example.

Fair enough.

Im not sure if photobucket allows hotlinking or not, but here goes:

Don't mind me, I'm the guy on the corner with the sandwich board.



Here's a different one. Hope at least one of them works.

YellowKing wrote:but the reality is not as wacked out and supernatural as you have been led to believe.

Maybe the reality is not as normal and harmles as you have been led to believe?

I don't care whether my Presidents go to church on Sunday, or say grace over meals, or write their own heartfelt Easter letters to the nieces and nephews. I just care whether or not they've bought the agenda of the Christian Right, which is really the only thing we're talking about when we talk about "religion" in American politics.

God Urges Rick Perry Not to Run for President:

Describing Texas Gov. Rick Perry as grossly unqualified for the position, God, the Creator and Ruler of the Universe, urged Perry not to run for president of the United States Wednesday. “I prayed last night and asked the Lord to support my candidacy, and He said no,” Perry told reporters outside the Texas Capitol, explaining that God had cited the governor’s rejection of federal stimulus funds to expand state jobless benefits, his irresponsible speculation about Texas seceding from the union, and his overall lack of concrete solutions to nation’s problems as reasons why He could not endorse a Perry presidential bid.

Holman wrote:I don't care whether my Presidents go to church on Sunday, or say grace over meals, or write their own heartfelt Easter letters to the nieces and nephews. I just care whether or not they've bought the agenda of the Christian Right, which is really the only thing we're talking about when we talk about "religion" in American politics.

The point is that you could look at every one of our previous Presidents and deduce that they might spearhead the 'agenda' of the Christian right, but that simply has not happened.

Hell, everyone assumed Obama would close Gitmo, pull us out of Iraq or Afghanistan, and end the Patriot act, but he hasn't. Just because people have strong personal opinions on things doesn't mean they are going to try to radically change society when they take office.

George W. Bush was the most born-again religious type to take office in decades, but for all of his faults he never took us down the road of being a religious state. The best he could do to affect anyone based on his religion were minor acts.

Religion is a red herring in this election. The real issues are economic and foreign policy (the same as it ever was).

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:God Urges Rick Perry Not to Run for President:

Describing Texas Gov. Rick Perry as grossly unqualified for the position, God, the Creator and Ruler of the Universe, urged Perry not to run for president of the United States Wednesday. “I prayed last night and asked the Lord to support my candidacy, and He said no,” Perry told reporters outside the Texas Capitol, explaining that God had cited the governor’s rejection of federal stimulus funds to expand state jobless benefits, his irresponsible speculation about Texas seceding from the union, and his overall lack of concrete solutions to nation’s problems as reasons why He could not endorse a Perry presidential bid.

In related news, Allah endorses the reelection of President Obama.

msduncan wrote:The point is that you could look at every one of our previous Presidents and deduce that they might spearhead the 'agenda' of the Christian right

Wait, what?

msduncan wrote: Religion is a red herring in this election. The real issues are economic and foreign policy (the same as it ever was).

So why do so many GOP candidates (at the Presidential, but especially at lower levels of office) run explicitly as social conservatives out to save America from Satan/Allah/Dan Savage? I've been watching this show for thirty years, and they're banging that Bible harder than ever.

msduncan wrote:Religion is a red herring in this election. The real issues are economic and foreign policy (the same as it ever was).

You forgot judicial appointments - one of the most direct and lasting ways a president can influence the country.

How much influence does a president have over the economy? They can present a budget and sign what comes out of the Congressional sausage factory. They can push huge tax cuts or huge, costly bills. But can they really change the course of the economy?

Exodor wrote:

msduncan wrote:Religion is a red herring in this election. The real issues are economic and foreign policy (the same as it ever was).

You forgot judicial appointments - one of the most direct and lasting ways a president can influence the country.

How much influence does a president have over the economy? They can present a budget and sign what comes out of the Congressional sausage factory. They can push huge tax cuts or huge, costly bills. But can they really change the course of the economy?

As was clearly stated on a local show the other morning. The president gets way to much credit and blame when it comes to the economy. Even congress does too. Government can't do anything directly to the economy except lay the table. They can indirectly influence it through taxes and tossing money at certain groups to encourage some activities but in the end it always falls to the people in control of the businesses.

AWS260 wrote:

msduncan wrote:The point is that you could look at every one of our previous Presidents and deduce that they might spearhead the 'agenda' of the Christian right

Wait, what?

Meaning they were all Christians. They all invoked God. They all thanked God for their success and so on and so forth.

"Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee." George Washington's prayer at Valley Forge

"The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to man." John Adams retorting to Thomas Paine in his diary, July 26, 1796.

“I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make better citizens, better fathers, better husbands... the Bible makes the best people in the world." President Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests." President Andrew Jackson

"The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion." Abraham Lincoln during his 2nd term

“To every man who faces life with real desire to do his part in everything, I appeal for a study of the Bible." President Theodore Roosevelt

“I have a very simple thing to ask of you. I ask every man and woman in this audience that from this day on they will realize that part of the destiny of America lies in their daily perusal of this great Book (the Bible)." President Woodrow Wilson

"The study of the Bible is a post-graduate course in the richest library of human experience." President Herbert Hoover

“We cannot read the history of our rise and development as a nation, without reckoning with the place the Bible has occupied in shaping the advances of the Republic…Where we have been the truest and most consistent in obeying its precepts, we have attained the greatest measure of contentment and prosperity.” Franklin D Roosevelt

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." President Harry S. Truman

“Without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure.” Ronald Reagan

Part of our essential humanity is paying respect to what God gave us and what will be here a long time after we're gone.
William J. Clinton

"I think I have an ongoing conversation with God. Throughout the day I’m constantly asking myself questions about what I’m doing, why I am doing it." (Barack Obama, April 2004)

So my point is that if you inserted these gentlemen into THIS campaign as a Republican, they would be ridiculed, trashed, and so on for statements like these. Another way to put it: if the current Republican candidates had said any of these statements, they would be targeted and touted as religious nuts that want to take your separation of Church and State away from you.

It's ridiculous. It's asinine. It's a red herring.